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[Class Rep] Werewolf Feedback Thread
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Mr_Wolfe✭✭✭So one thing I am curious about is you keep throwing around the words wrong, right, flawed, and bad, but offer no reasoning behind why.
So what is the correct method in your opinion to measure dps and why?
I can't make you read, dude.I would like to see a parse on a 6 million dummy. The target dummy with all the debuffs is not an accurate assessment of what werewolves are being used for.
It´s by far the best target dummy to use when comparing different classes. Since all buffs/debuffs are up 100% of the time, there´s a standardization with the testing, (which you won´t find anywhere else), which is a necessity when comparing different classes/setups.
Actually, having all buff/debuffs active 100% of the time heavily skews the results. It hides the weaknesses of builds that don't have access to those buffs (like werewolf), making them seem more equivalent to builds that can provide those buffs on their own.
Look at these two results again:
77,012 DPS with 100% uptime on all buffs. That's pretty impressive.
Now without the extra buffs:
46,562 DPS. That's roughly a 40% drop, meaning those buffs provided nearly half of the DPS in the first parse.
So congratulations, you cheesed a parse to make werewolf look better than it is.
Raid dps vs solo dps is very different things.
The first with 77k requires not only an optimized toon but also an organized raid, this healers, tanks, buffs from different classes all in the optimized build gear themselves coordinating ults for maximum uptime.
The second is self buffed and debuffed, and after the patch you will see that 46k on a 6mil is very respectable.
That's you quoting the post where I explained why using the atronach produces skewed results. There's a few more examples if you look upthread. You've quoted most of them.Think the consensus is more that with the mass Nerfs ww, who dont rely on maintaining heavy dots but La/Spammables. And the 100% buff ql improvements to blood moon is an indirect buff. From a pve perspective at least.
Yes the iron dummies ignores many of the buff deficiencies of a build but how is that better than the overrepresentation you get on a 6 mil from inherrent class buffs. It may be cheesy but it is also the most scientific method of comparing builds - controls all variables.
Care to expand on the bolded part?
If we're comparing builds/classes, wouldn't inheirant class buffs be part of what we're comparing? If a build has more buffs/debuffs available to it, that's an advantage over a class that doesn't.Marcus_Cassius wrote: »So 77k at the very best in WW form , a regular raid build with comparable high end gear pull 100K+(can find such parses all over the place) and has still access to range . Keep in mind you wont even be in that form 100% of the time. In Humanoid form molag kena setup with cp focus on light attacks isn't so good.
You lose 20% dps compare to any other raider , you cant range, and you dont even keep the form 100% of the time, how can anyone think they are fine ?
Some good points. Even if werewolf could hit the same dps numbers as other builds (it can't), it has a lot of drawbacks that other classes don't have to deal with.Edited by Mr_Wolfe on September 19, 2019 11:42PM1 -
cmvet✭✭✭Werewolf was Nerfed, but compared to everyone else in the game werewolves came out "less nerfed". The High end game dps was shattered as a higher percentage of their damage came from dots. So competitively PvE wolves are in the running again.
lol, so show me a high end pve stam build tha was nerfed as bad as ww. I went from 70k dps down to 49kdps, same setup, same rotation on ww. Don't believe it watch this. Show me a class that lost 30% damage in scalebreaker in high end pve.
You tell me how werewolves came out ok. Now they are getting nerfed again.
Literally every single stam build was nerfed harder than Werewolf was. HIgh end was brought down from 100k+ down to high 70ks-80k because dot stacking is dead and that was were their strength came from. Werewolf is still more than capable of pulling those numbers due to their high damage spamable. Meaning they are right up there in dps with the human counterparts.
so your math doesn't work out. If you went from 100k damage to 80k damage that is only a 20% nerf, how is that nerfed harder than a 30% werewolf nerf?
Where is the 30% nerf coming from? your personal dps parse that you showcased where you didn't use the main damage ability during the parse? I just provided evidence that it is possible for werewolf to get to 77k dps on the pts server with all the changes. On live you can get to 85k with the werewolf still. You chose to leave out the highest damage ability in the werewolf kit after light attacks were nerfed, and wonder why after the nature of werewolf dps was changed that your dps was gutted.
Weave howls with your light attacks do more damage.
That parse was an intentionally minimized standard rotation to reduce aborant variation on attacks. Howl had it's damage reduced by 14% in scalebreaker, so would still be significantly lower post scalebreaker. So adding in Howl makes no significant change in comparing overall dps change between pre/post scalebreaker. If I added 10k dps with howl prescalebreaker parse, i would have only added 8.6k dps with howl in postscalebreaker parse. I'm not sure howl really adds 10k dps
I understand that adding howl into a rotation increases overall damage, I use howl in my rotation when runnin ww. The parse posted was to just show the severity of the damage change to ww with scalebreaker.
Now we will see how bad other stam classes get nerfed after the next update with over severe dot damage reduction. It may be bad.Edited by cmvet on September 20, 2019 12:09AM0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There are still werewolves? They’ve disappeared from pvp entirely.
Two patches ago killed them, best thing to do is revert every change that’s been made to them since then.
There was an issue with them being a little OP under 50, but I’d prefer a game with some werewolves being OP then have none around at all.
Never had a werewolf and probably will never make one, I just prefer seeing them for more variety.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten7 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So one thing I am curious about is you keep throwing around the words wrong, right, flawed, and bad, but offer no reasoning behind why.
So what is the correct method in your opinion to measure dps and why?
I can't make you read, dude.I would like to see a parse on a 6 million dummy. The target dummy with all the debuffs is not an accurate assessment of what werewolves are being used for.
It´s by far the best target dummy to use when comparing different classes. Since all buffs/debuffs are up 100% of the time, there´s a standardization with the testing, (which you won´t find anywhere else), which is a necessity when comparing different classes/setups.
Actually, having all buff/debuffs active 100% of the time heavily skews the results. It hides the weaknesses of builds that don't have access to those buffs (like werewolf), making them seem more equivalent to builds that can provide those buffs on their own.
Look at these two results again:
77,012 DPS with 100% uptime on all buffs. That's pretty impressive.
Now without the extra buffs:
46,562 DPS. That's roughly a 40% drop, meaning those buffs provided nearly half of the DPS in the first parse.
So congratulations, you cheesed a parse to make werewolf look better than it is.
Raid dps vs solo dps is very different things.
The first with 77k requires not only an optimized toon but also an organized raid, this healers, tanks, buffs from different classes all in the optimized build gear themselves coordinating ults for maximum uptime.
The second is self buffed and debuffed, and after the patch you will see that 46k on a 6mil is very respectable.
That's you quoting the post where I explained why using the atronach produces skewed results. There's a few more examples if you look upthread. You've quoted most of them.Think the consensus is more that with the mass Nerfs ww, who dont rely on maintaining heavy dots but La/Spammables. And the 100% buff ql improvements to blood moon is an indirect buff. From a pve perspective at least.
Yes the iron dummies ignores many of the buff deficiencies of a build but how is that better than the overrepresentation you get on a 6 mil from inherrent class buffs. It may be cheesy but it is also the most scientific method of comparing builds - controls all variables.
Care to expand on the bolded part?
If we're comparing builds/classes, wouldn't inheirant class buffs be part of what we're comparing? If a build has more buffs/debuffs available to it, that's an advantage over a class that doesn't.
I think I see what is going on.
I think you might have a misconception on what that iron atro parse info is supposed to supply.
Your right that a werewolf can not supply the majority of buffs or debuffs that come from the iron but that really isn't the point. The buffs/debuffs that are supplied are the ones that are provided by raid (healers, tanks, and unique buffs that different classes provide the group).
It represents the fully optimized potential damage while in a raid. It is used for players to test their own gear and CP optimization without making other players stand around buffing and debuffing while you fiddle with your load out. It is a great tool to see the full potential of your dps while under ideal conditions. That is why it is the standard for testing for End game guilds.
If you are looking to test the validity of a build for solo encounters like VMA then of course by all means 6 million dummy is the way to go.
Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA6 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Marcus_Cassius wrote: »So 77k at the very best in WW form , a regular raid build with comparable high end gear pull 100K+(can find such parses all over the place) and has still access to range . Keep in mind you wont even be in that form 100% of the time. In Humanoid form molag kena setup with cp focus on light attacks isn't so good.
You lose 20% dps compare to any other raider , you cant range, and you dont even keep the form 100% of the time, how can anyone think they are fine ?
77k is the best I could do as a solo wolf on the raid dummy on the PTS after an hour of testing. No one is pulling 100k on pts, the players that were pulling 100k now are pulling 65k-81k on pts (from the various players I have talked with, and parse results posted) . With one other wolf utilizing feeding frenzy I was able to get to 81k. The top solo wolf I've seen is 77k and the top human I've seen was 81k. That's under 5% lower dps.
So if we compare the 85k that my wolf can pull on live vs the 110k+ (there are higher) that human form can pull. The wolf comes out over at least 25% less powerful.
I don't want to discount the fact that you are correct about some other issues that plague the wolf such as holding form, or melee only combat, or restrictive gear. But as far as it goes with comparable pve dps, Werewolf is looking a lot better to me.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA3 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To the guys on PTS and posting parses - thank you.
Has anyone had a chance to test duels in test server? I primarily PVP so I am curious to how the new claw of life is operating with the heal. Is it helping tip the scale back some with the nerf to our main heal or is it even noticeable? Can we take down a heavy armor target again or are we still flinging our arms like wet noodles there?
My sincere apologies if this has already been discussed. I have browsed through the majority of the comments and hope I haven't missed it.
I have not had time to test out werewolf in a pvp setting yet. But I will be sure to share my findings next week when I get a chance to test some new and old staple set ups.
Does anyone have a particular set up they are interested in me testing out?Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Werewolf was Nerfed, but compared to everyone else in the game werewolves came out "less nerfed". The High end game dps was shattered as a higher percentage of their damage came from dots. So competitively PvE wolves are in the running again.
lol, so show me a high end pve stam build tha was nerfed as bad as ww. I went from 70k dps down to 49kdps, same setup, same rotation on ww. Don't believe it watch this. Show me a class that lost 30% damage in scalebreaker in high end pve.
You tell me how werewolves came out ok. Now they are getting nerfed again.
Literally every single stam build was nerfed harder than Werewolf was. HIgh end was brought down from 100k+ down to high 70ks-80k because dot stacking is dead and that was were their strength came from. Werewolf is still more than capable of pulling those numbers due to their high damage spamable. Meaning they are right up there in dps with the human counterparts.
so your math doesn't work out. If you went from 100k damage to 80k damage that is only a 20% nerf, how is that nerfed harder than a 30% werewolf nerf?
Where is the 30% nerf coming from? your personal dps parse that you showcased where you didn't use the main damage ability during the parse? I just provided evidence that it is possible for werewolf to get to 77k dps on the pts server with all the changes. On live you can get to 85k with the werewolf still. You chose to leave out the highest damage ability in the werewolf kit after light attacks were nerfed, and wonder why after the nature of werewolf dps was changed that your dps was gutted.
Weave howls with your light attacks do more damage.
That parse was an intentionally minimized standard rotation to reduce aborant variation on attacks. Howl had it's damage reduced by 14% in scalebreaker, so would still be significantly lower post scalebreaker. So adding in Howl makes no significant change in comparing overall dps change between pre/post scalebreaker. If I added 10k dps with howl prescalebreaker parse, i would have only added 8.6k dps with howl in postscalebreaker parse. I'm not sure howl really adds 10k dps
I understand that adding howl into a rotation increases overall damage, I use howl in my rotation when runnin ww. The parse posted was to just show the severity of the damage change to ww with scalebreaker.
Now we will see how bad other stam classes get nerfed after the next update with over severe dot damage reduction. It may be bad.
From what I can tell is the damage drop that you are showing just came from not optimizing and adapting. Before, sure, slap wolf was more viable, but Scalebreaker required a change in strategy when it came to wolf dpsing. When done correctly this resulted in little to no drop in dps pre to post Scalebreaker.Edited by Chrlynsch on September 20, 2019 1:24AMCaius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
Vordac✭✭Isnt this discussing the changes on pts? Silver linings in that ww are nerfed but nerfed less.
There are some advantages for non-min/max to ww. For console Aus considering the connection the simplicity of ww means I can actually enjoy the content and pull comparable dps. More than my other stam toons.Marcus_Cassius wrote: »a regular raid build with comparable high end gear pull 100K+(can find such parses all over the place) and has still access to range
Not saying theyre fine - They need work. Few instances personally losing form so maybe you should practise how to maintain it. They lose range but they have a shorter set-up and can redeploy quickly with leap. And I also find kena a problem but other monster helms can be run with minimal loss in dps. Keen to test maarselokMarcus_Cassius wrote: ». Humanoid form molag kena setup with cp focus on light attacks isn't so good...... you cant range, and you dont even keep the form 100% of the time, how can anyone think they are fine ?
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cmvet✭✭✭Marcus_Cassius wrote: »So 77k at the very best in WW form , a regular raid build with comparable high end gear pull 100K+(can find such parses all over the place) and has still access to range . Keep in mind you wont even be in that form 100% of the time. In Humanoid form molag kena setup with cp focus on light attacks isn't so good.
You lose 20% dps compare to any other raider , you cant range, and you dont even keep the form 100% of the time, how can anyone think they are fine ?
77k is the best I could do as a solo wolf on the raid dummy on the PTS after an hour of testing. No one is pulling 100k on pts, the players that were pulling 100k now are pulling 65k-81k on pts (from the various players I have talked with, and parse results posted) . With one other wolf utilizing feeding frenzy I was able to get to 81k. The top solo wolf I've seen is 77k and the top human I've seen was 81k. That's under 5% lower dps.
So if we compare the 85k that my wolf can pull on live vs the 110k+ (there are higher) that human form can pull. The wolf comes out over at least 25% less powerful.
I don't want to discount the fact that you are correct about some other issues that plague the wolf such as holding form, or melee only combat, or restrictive gear. But as far as it goes with comparable pve dps, Werewolf is looking a lot better to me.
I really do hope after patch that there is only a 5% difference from optimal ww to optimal human stam dps in pve. That would at least allow people to build around ww for pvp as well without just being obliterated, or allow ww to be in organized raid groups rather than just having to PUG it.0 -
NefasClass RepresentativeAnd as I've already stated, bad testing methods are bad testing methods, no matter how popular they are. Though it does explain a few things about the state of this game that a class rep is here defending such a fundamentally flawed approach.
Was there something you didn't understand about why the atronach tests are unreliable, especially when comparing werewolf to other builds? Or is it just too much bother to do it right? I would have thought a class rep of all people want to get an accurate picture of how different builds compare to each other.
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Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To the guys on PTS and posting parses - thank you.
Has anyone had a chance to test duels in test server? I primarily PVP so I am curious to how the new claw of life is operating with the heal. Is it helping tip the scale back some with the nerf to our main heal or is it even noticeable? Can we take down a heavy armor target again or are we still flinging our arms like wet noodles there?
My sincere apologies if this has already been discussed. I have browsed through the majority of the comments and hope I haven't missed it.
I have not had time to test out werewolf in a pvp setting yet. But I will be sure to share my findings next week when I get a chance to test some new and old staple set ups.
Does anyone have a particular set up they are interested in me testing out?
One that actually works would be nice
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Vordac✭✭Care to expand on the bolded part?
In content with limited players, sure. But say a class inherantly has major fracture as part of its kit. On a 6 mil dummy theyll do 10%-ish more when in reality both specs will have access to that from tanks. Same for buffs like berserk - contributed by the healer. Pretty much what a bunch of others have been saying. The iron dummy provides the most accurate relative comparison of each specs. dps under optimal raid conditions. It doesnt account for the value those classes bring, even if that value is redundant, in trial pve content because of support specs. Cause if your pulling the same dps on a 6 mill dummy with access to a redundant debuffs relative to another you're 'cheesing' your dps.2 -
Vordac✭✭And besides, most of these tests are ignoring the contribution of the unique benefit of feeding frenzy that a wolf brings. At 1-3 % dps buff per player a single wolf is providing optimally 800-2.4k * 7 more effective dps than his dummy parse not taking into account the small sustain and ulti gen they bring. So instead of dismissing the iron atro comparisons as 'cheese' maybe just accept what an iron parse actually tells you with both its strengths and limitations. It is a relative comparison, nothing more - haha, maybe it'd be better to have a dummy which strips you of all redundant buffs so you are comparing your own dps without stealing from all the support buffs that others are giving you. The extra dps you gain from alkosh pen for example is in effect the dps of the tank after all. Youre just doing it for them.0
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Haink✭✭To the guys on PTS and posting parses - thank you.
Has anyone had a chance to test duels in test server? I primarily PVP so I am curious to how the new claw of life is operating with the heal. Is it helping tip the scale back some with the nerf to our main heal or is it even noticeable? Can we take down a heavy armor target again or are we still flinging our arms like wet noodles there?
My sincere apologies if this has already been discussed. I have browsed through the majority of the comments and hope I haven't missed it.
I have not had time to test out werewolf in a pvp setting yet. But I will be sure to share my findings next week when I get a chance to test some new and old staple set ups.
Does anyone have a particular set up they are interested in me testing out?
Thank you @Chrlynsch - Right now I run 5 Shackles Heavy, Briarheart 2H maul (WW bar) and bow back bar. Double dot poisons. Feel free to run whatever set up you like though. I play a tanky build and right now the only issues in PVP I am running into is I can't really 1v4 like I use to. The heal nerf/cost increase is certainly being felt. The current bleed damage is insane so I am still watching health bars drop quickly. I am curious how this will look in PTS 24 though.
Thanks again!0 -
Isnt this discussing the changes on pts? Silver linings in that ww are nerfed but nerfed less.
There are some advantages for non-min/max to ww. For console Aus considering the connection the simplicity of ww means I can actually enjoy the content and pull comparable dps. More than my other stam toons.Marcus_Cassius wrote: »a regular raid build with comparable high end gear pull 100K+(can find such parses all over the place) and has still access to range
Not saying theyre fine - They need work. Few instances personally losing form so maybe you should practise how to maintain it. They lose range but they have a shorter set-up and can redeploy quickly with leap. And I also find kena a problem but other monster helms can be run with minimal loss in dps. Keen to test maarselokMarcus_Cassius wrote: ». Humanoid form molag kena setup with cp focus on light attacks isn't so good...... you cant range, and you dont even keep the form 100% of the time, how can anyone think they are fine ?
Oh i hear you the fact to not have to weave is great. One game mechanism that is extremely unfair to some players.I will test with maarselok too . Maybe there's better setups.Is WW with cp focus on dots comparable dps on pts ?1 -
Vordac✭✭Marcus_Cassius wrote: »Oh i hear you the fact to not have to weave is great. One game mechanism that is extremely unfair to some players.I will test with maarselok too . Maybe there's better setups.Is WW with cp focus on dots comparable dps on pts ?
On paper with the 150% buff it looks inferior to selenes by about 500dps. But selenes isnt always ticking on cooldown. In practise on cosole it is near unusable - it really needs a timer to track given 7 sec doesnt match with any rotations and without being able to map bash to a single button it leaves my char spazzing out with the lag when trying to La/ability and bash. Delay after the bash also so some dps loss probably. The added sustain cost is also undesirable for me. Shame, the animation is cool!
Selenes is about 1.5-2k behind my kena passes0 -
Ellyhan✭✭✭Just thinking again, with all nerf we get, it's possible to be EVERYTIME wolf ? With the emote "pissonthecorner"
For real, all dps get a nerf and the WW is not the worth.J'ai pas de coéquipiers, c'est juste mon garde manger.0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You know werewolf is bad ,when people who doesn't even play werewolf, finds their way to a thread like this and agree that werewolfs are in a horribly sad state (especially PvP).
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Mr_Wolfe✭✭✭Care to expand on the bolded part?
In content with limited players, sure. But say a class inherantly has major fracture as part of its kit. On a 6 mil dummy theyll do 10%-ish more when in reality both specs will have access to that from tanks. Same for buffs like berserk - contributed by the healer. Pretty much what a bunch of others have been saying. The iron dummy provides the most accurate relative comparison of each specs. dps under optimal raid conditions. It doesnt account for the value those classes bring, even if that value is redundant, in trial pve content because of support specs. Cause if your pulling the same dps on a 6 mill dummy with access to a redundant debuffs relative to another you're 'cheesing' your dps.
Ah, I see what you mean. You're right that, depending on group composition, certain buffs or debuffs could be redundant and lead to skewed results on a standard target dummy.
But those are edge cases. Trials are only a small part of ESO, and you can't judge the overall effectiveness of a build just by how it performs under "optimal raid conditions."
Besides, meta groups generally don't invite werewolves.
And besides, most of these tests are ignoring the contribution of the unique benefit of feeding frenzy that a wolf brings. At 1-3 % dps buff per player a single wolf is providing optimally 800-2.4k * 7 more effective dps than his dummy parse not taking into account the small sustain and ulti gen they bring. So instead of dismissing the iron atro comparisons as 'cheese' maybe just accept what an iron parse actually tells you with both its strengths and limitations. It is a relative comparison, nothing more - haha, maybe it'd be better to have a dummy which strips you of all redundant buffs so you are comparing your own dps without stealing from all the support buffs that others are giving you. The extra dps you gain from alkosh pen for example is in effect the dps of the tank after all. Youre just doing it for them.
While it's true that werewolves have access to a unique group buff, it's also the *only* group buff they have access to, ignoring equipment. That might be a reason to include one werewolf in your raid group, but not more than one.
Even then I'm not sure the boost from Feeding Frenzy is worth it compared to other builds that do more dps, have access to the other buffs and debuffs that are expected of a meta raid group (many of which don't require your allies to pause their rotations in order to hit a synergy), and don't come with any of the other drawbacks werewolves bring to the table.3 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭We're also aware of some Werewolf abilities feeling "bare" in nature (such as Pounce) and are currently investigating some additional variation to help spice up their combat approach.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler where you at on this?Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA2 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We're also aware of some Werewolf abilities feeling "bare" in nature (such as Pounce) and are currently investigating some additional variation to help spice up their combat approach.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler where you at on this?
When the classreps and well known streamers goes "YIKES!!" as they read the notes on werewolf you know it´s really, really bad.........
Stop with the standardization and start looking at what made each class and playstyle unique in the first place. And for the love of god, start reading your own feedback threads, because I can´t find anything in this thread (or other werewolf feedback threads) where any of the changes you´ve implemented goes in line with what the community asks for.6 -
Haink✭✭I'm pretty sure @ZOS_BrianWheeler has turned any notifications concerning WWs off. From the way the guys skimmed over WW in the patch notes and acted like we were "getting a buff to claws" I doubt they are listening anymore.
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Amdar_Godkiller✭✭✭✭✭@Qbiken
What's your CP set up looking like now?
I was thinking something like this:
71 PWE (32% increase 56% of the time)
Physical Weapons Expert looks to be stronger than Master at Arms only because of Relequen damage not being impacted by MaA
66 Master at Arms (22% increase 73% of the time)
Since direct damage is now 73%.
56 Mighty (12% increase most of the time)
Pretty much always the third best option for WWs as we tend to lean heavily towards either thauma or MaA and benefit greatly from PWE. I think this could go as low as 49 cp, but it definitely shouldn't be any higher than 56.
41 Piercing (~6.9% increase to all non magic, non oblivion damage all the time, and multiplicative with other CP stars)
With full raid buffs up, though, this might not be the most efficient CP investment. In this case, taking out some and putting 3-14 in precise strikes, 6 in PWE (I think that gets to the next jump point but it might be 7), and 6 in Master at Arms would be best.
34 Precise Strikes (<= 9.3% increase 88% [relequen] of the time when you crit [60% of the time?], but is multiplicative with other bonuses) -
This number will decrease depending on how high your crit damage modifier is. Since it's so high in Raid situations, it might be less valuable than piercing so long as you are under-penetrating, however in solo play this will be close to 9.3% more damage when you crit, and in PVP it will almost always be at around 14% more damage due to lower base crit modifier on high crit resist targets.
2 Thauma (1% more damage 27% of the time)
It costs us 9 cp to even gain 1% more dps from this CP star, so not really practical beyond the first jump point.
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cmvet✭✭✭Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »@Qbiken
What's your CP set up looking like now?
I was thinking something like this:
71 PWE (32% increase 56% of the time)
Physical Weapons Expert looks to be stronger than Master at Arms only because of Relequen damage not being impacted by MaA
66 Master at Arms (22% increase 73% of the time)
Since direct damage is now 73%.
56 Mighty (12% increase most of the time)
Pretty much always the third best option for WWs as we tend to lean heavily towards either thauma or MaA and benefit greatly from PWE. I think this could go as low as 49 cp, but it definitely shouldn't be any higher than 56.
41 Piercing (~6.9% increase to all non magic, non oblivion damage all the time, and multiplicative with other CP stars)
With full raid buffs up, though, this might not be the most efficient CP investment. In this case, taking out some and putting 3-14 in precise strikes, 6 in PWE (I think that gets to the next jump point but it might be 7), and 6 in Master at Arms would be best.
34 Precise Strikes (<= 9.3% increase 88% [relequen] of the time when you crit [60% of the time?], but is multiplicative with other bonuses) -
This number will decrease depending on how high your crit damage modifier is. Since it's so high in Raid situations, it might be less valuable than piercing so long as you are under-penetrating, however in solo play this will be close to 9.3% more damage when you crit, and in PVP it will almost always be at around 14% more damage due to lower base crit modifier on high crit resist targets.
2 Thauma (1% more damage 27% of the time)
It costs us 9 cp to even gain 1% more dps from this CP star, so not really practical beyond the first jump point.
Doesn't thaum affect Relequen?0 -
IlCanis_LupuslI✭✭✭✭✭Just changed my stamsorc ww to a magsorc anyone have some general advice for pve and pve?
Xbox-EU-AD
Khajiit Night blade Healer(BiS for cuteness)-Flawless Conquerer Grand Overlord
Khajiit Stamsorc Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer (1st attempt ww form during the entire dungeon) main
Khajiit(Master Race) Templar Healer, Flawless Conquerer
Khajiit Stam dk, Flawless conquerer, 2nd attempt
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQhCmVHwZioVyTEDberxGtA?view_as=public
Werewolf Veteran player, Since Wrathstone-DLC "Raid-Wolf", 50k dps with fracture, Pvp Healer.0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Here is my full review of the current werewolf skill line for Dragon Hold.
Warning contains opinions.
PVE:
Kena, Rele, Bloodmoon (Berserker) is comparably powerful and still is an option for endgame content. Werewolf still lacks variety when it comes to builds that can be used. Werewolves need to have something added to their kit that provides value to the group.
Their heal is still overpriced, and the nerf to the damage and heal from claws of life is noticeable.
Pack Leader is still the lost puppy morph. The debuffs that this morph apply are too common to provide value for the majority of content in the game. I will suggest changes for this morph later.
The loss of bleed damage will require some retuning of abilites and most builds not utilizing Blood Moon will come off feeling rather lacking.
The change to the Blood Moon set was definitely the Werewolf's salvation in Dragonhold. Werewolf would have been better off if they would have been given a flat buff to LA damage again, instead of beefing up Blood Moon's proc damage. This would at least have given non Blood Moon set ups a better chance to compete. The removal of the crit requirement and reduction in cooldown is welcome change.
Pack Leader's food is a novelty to werewolves, and isn't even best in slot for dps. It grants roughly 5% cost reduction for the werewolf transformation, and for the cost of werewolf abilities.
PVP :
The loss of Werewolf's dot damage is definitely noticeable in PVP, as healing had gone untouched.
Both the bleed and the Dot from claws were once used to apply mild pressure to your target then you would utilize howl and heavy combos to burst down your targets. This method is sadly no longer viable on competent opponents. Werewolf simply lacks the sustained pressure it once had in order to execute these combos, the damage from once formidable dots are now nothing more than a burning sensation when your enemies go to the bathroom.
I really only had success after I added Blood Moon into my pvp load out. The main issue with werewolf in pvp is that it has to sacrifice offensive sets for defensive sets in order to survive in the environment. This is where it falls behind standard builds in pvp, The heal requires too much offensive sacrifice in order become an effective defensive tool. It shouldn't be too hard to design a heal that falls into the strength of the standard stamina loadout.
A nice change for PVP wolves is that using Claws of Anguish will apply both Major and Minor Defile to its targets (unless they are Argonian, immune to minor). This could be very powerful and useful tool for group play.
The Hircine's Heal still remains absolutely ridiculously costly. In Scalebreaker the mission statement of the werewolf was stated;" ...goal of the Werewolf experience - a fast paced threat that is a terrifying foe on the battlefield. Activating Werewolf abilities should feel distinct in nature from other abilities in terms of their consequences; they should feel more powerful, but more costly."
The current heal does not live up to the goal that ZOS set for the werewolf abilies. This heal, simply put, belongs in the kit of a tank. Seeing as Werewolf's damage has been brought in line to feel 25% more powerful but 25% more costly, it just doesn't make sense that werewolf has to deviate from that damage path that ZOS set forth in order to their secure their own survival.
Every other DD both Magic and Stamina becomes more sufficient in self preservation and damage the more that they invest into their respective build.
The heal scaling on this ability was ripe for exploiting before scalecaller, but that is because werewolf could simply equip some broken sets to rely on damage like Torug's and bleed damage then focus cheesing the WW heal for max survival. You fixed the first part than broke the last part.
Suggested Solutions:Previously, a big portion of Werewolf's burst damage came from the fact that their bleed applied from their Light Attacks dealt damage immediately, and could be spammed in quick succession. This made up for the fact that immediately Light Attacking would refresh the bleed. Now with the delay, we wanted to ensure you couldn't miss the damage, so we’re making sure these bleeds couldn't refresh if they were already active. [Bold] In addition to this, we've noticed a large disparity of the performance between the Pack Leader and Berserker morph, and are currently in the midst of investigating a healthier balance between the two, other than merely adding more damage to one. [/Bold]
-Berserker: This morph should specialize at taking down large and formidable targets. Probably my most controversial suggestion would be convert the Bleed damage from Light Attacks into Oblivion Damage.Transform into a beast, fearing nearby enemies for 3 seconds.
While transformed your Light Attacks mark your target, Dealing 5% of the target's Maximum Health as Oblivion Damage every 1 second for 4 seconds. Maximum of 5k. Your Heavy Attacks deal 50% splash damage, and your Max Stamina is increased by 30%.
While slotted, your Stamina Recovery is increased by 15%.
-Pack Leader: I know it took over 2 years to get the direwolves working, but in their sad state I think it is time to move past the puppies and on to something else.
Pack Leader should be about enhancing the group gameplay. Possibly something as easy as granting increased light attack damage. This damage is Werewolf's primary source of damage but also is useful to humanoid groupmates as well. It also fits thematically that it is only beneficial for a pack to have 1 Leader.
Transform into a beast, fearing nearby enemies for 3 seconds.
While transformed, Allies within 28m, Minor Empower, increasing light attack damage by 15%. Your Heavy Attacks Deal 50% splash damage, snaring your opponent by 30%, and your Max Stamina is increased by 30%.
While slotted, your Stamina Recovery is increased by 15%.
-Pounce: is pretty naked still, this ability still needs a little pepper on it to make it worth it's spot on the bar. I think making Feral the base is the way to go as no werewolf enthusiast leaves home without this morph.We're also aware of some Werewolf abilities feeling "bare" in nature (such as Pounce) and are currently investigating some additional variation to help spice up their combat approach.Pounce:
Pounce on an enemy with primal fury, dealing X Physical Damage. Pouncing from at least 10 meters away adds 4 seconds to the duration of your Werewolf Transformation.
Brutal Pounce:
Pounce to an area with primal fury, dealing X Physical Damage to all enemies within 6m. Damaging an enemy that is at least 10 meters away adds 4 seconds to the duration of your Werewolf Transformation.
(Streak Fatigue Added)
Feral Pounce:
Pounce on an enemy with primal fury, dealing X Physical Damage. Deals 300% more damage to enemies below 25% Health when hitting them from the rear. Pouncing from at least 10 meters away adds 4 seconds to the duration of your Werewolf Transformation.
Devour: This animation and action has been acting a little differently each patch for the last few patches now. Currently this action fires off with synergy activation. If you move at all the total corpse is consumed and you only get one tick (or one second). Before you were able to get your last 3 ticks if you came back to it in time.
Devour should be moved from the synergy activation because it isn't a proper synergy, it often gets way of the proper synergy you are trying to activate at the moment or fire a synergy when you are trying to devour.Devour should become the standard action for crouch while in werewolf form, this would fix the clunky nature that it has now. It would utilize an open action, and allow us to reliably utilize the synergies.
Certain objects in trials require a werewolf to first devour a target before interacting with its synergy, orbs in cloudrest for example.
-Hircine's HealFix it
Here is a Excel sheet, showcasing how some of the numbers would look for the purposes changes.
Edit: Excel image.Edited by Chrlynsch on September 28, 2019 7:10PMCaius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA7 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA2 -
NefasClass Representative@Chrlynsch
Great write up! Particularly on the Pack Leader morph. Will be bookmarking this post and will use it as reference.7 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Chrlynsch
Great write up! Particularly on the Pack Leader morph. Will be bookmarking this post and will use it as reference.
Awesome thanks!
Edited by Chrlynsch on September 26, 2019 2:19AMCaius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA2