Jayman1000 wrote: »

If we're only talking about normal, I partly agree.

Yep, I don't think it's really fair from players to fake tank vet dungeons. That being said, I never PUG for vet, which prevents me from both having people complaining about me as a DD or complaining myself about others for whatever reasons. Win/Win.

Downside is, I have to wait for my friends to be available in order to run vet dungeons, which is in turn not as often as I'd like it to be, but then again, at some stage you have to accept what it takes and that you (general you, not you-you) can't always have what you want, without blaming the rest of the world for it.

On a side note, I have a friend who often PUGs vet dungeons for the fun of it - he's good. Actually he seldom complains about bad players or fake roles in vet PUGs. Obviously most players are respectful and don't fake roles in vet PUGs, the problem seems to be acute in normal queues only. That is, where it's not really a problem.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

The biggest issue is fake DDs. Those who cannot do 20K between them, yet they try to do HM vet dungeons. And the moment the tank complains that Rkugamz takes too much time to die, after 15 minutes grinding is still 50%, you get verbally abused and kicked during the fight.

This is not the right way to phrase it.

Bad DPS =/= Fake DPS. If they select the role of DPS, and are not Tanking or Healer, and are using damaging attacks, they are DPS. If their numbers are really low, then they are simply not good at it.

Fake Tank - No Taunting
Fake Healer - No Healing
Fake DPS - Is Tanking and/or Healing

kathandira wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

The biggest issue is fake DDs. Those who cannot do 20K between them, yet they try to do HM vet dungeons. And the moment the tank complains that Rkugamz takes too much time to die, after 15 minutes grinding is still 50%, you get verbally abused and kicked during the fight.

This is not the right way to phrase it.

Bad DPS =/= Fake DPS. If they select the role of DPS, and are not Tanking or Healer, and are using damaging attacks, they are DPS. If their numbers are really low, then they are simply not good at it.

Fake Tank - No Taunting
Fake Healer - No Healing
Fake DPS - Is Tanking and/or Healing

When a healer (or even a tank) can outdps you, you're not really a dd. I mean, tank also does damage with ele wall, low slash and taunts but it doesnt make them a dd. Also, dungeons in ESO have dps checks, which makes it impossible/very hard to clear content with no dps.
Also, slotting heals doesn't make you a fake dd, on the contrary, vigor is very useful when pugging.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

The biggest issue is fake DDs. Those who cannot do 20K between them, yet they try to do HM vet dungeons. And the moment the tank complains that Rkugamz takes too much time to die, after 15 minutes grinding is still 50%, you get verbally abused and kicked during the fight.

This is not the right way to phrase it.

Bad DPS =/= Fake DPS. If they select the role of DPS, and are not Tanking or Healer, and are using damaging attacks, they are DPS. If their numbers are really low, then they are simply not good at it.

Fake Tank - No Taunting
Fake Healer - No Healing
Fake DPS - Is Tanking and/or Healing

When a healer (or even a tank) can outdps you, you're not really a dd. I mean, tank also does damage with ele wall, low slash and taunts but it doesnt make them a dd. Also, dungeons in ESO have dps checks, which makes it impossible/very hard to clear content with no dps.
Also, slotting heals doesn't make you a fake dd, on the contrary, vigor is very useful when pugging.

Sure, having a self heal doesn't make you a dedicated healer. But if you are only heavy attacking to regen magicka and spending the majority of the time buffing and healing, you aren't a DD.

I just don't see how someone who is not taunting, and not spending the majority of the time, can be called "Fake DD". Calling them bad at their job is more accurate. Or if they are doing absolutely nothing at all, i'd even call them a leech before anything else.

The majority of times I hear someone mentioning fake DD's, is in rebuttal to someone calling out fake tanks or healers. Feels more like a "No U" response that a real title.

Frostystuff wrote: »

I ve only encountered a fake tank once think it was vet coa 2 he had less then 30k health and wasn't taunting can't remember his gear was pretty annoying.
I have encountered when tanking/healing bad dps many times, i mean for fks sake if your over cp 160 there is no excuse go get some hundings/ spriggans or julianos/ms/spinners it should only take you a couple of hours.
And you might think your showing your mad skills kiting that mob around but if your on one side of the room and the other dd is off on the other side it's hard to grab taunt if your the tank and healing the tank and you 2 at the same time becomes impossible.

Tank has its own learning curve, what stupid you need to stand in what stupid you need to get out of, attacking from under your block and trying to pull stuff from the fringes when you are already surrounded by mobs. I suspect that a lot of the fake tanks people moan about are just people trying to work out a hard roll that is likely quiet different to other games they have played ie no aggro mechanic no AOE taunt.

I agree as far as the decent dps sets are concerned.

But it's pretty easy to spot the fake tank--that's when no boss in the entire dungeon is taunted, ever, and everyone's running around willy nilly with no strategy whatsoever. I don't have a problem with a bad tank, any more than I do with bad dps or bad healer. Everybody's gotta learn sometime, and if it's a dungeon I know, I'm happy help out. I just have a problem with dishonesty.

VaranisArano wrote: »

You misinterpreted the OP. No offense meant here, but if you don't do dungeons, then I'm not surprised you don't understand the valid complaint the OP is making.

You are correct, I don't understand. Thing is, can people not explain properly and TAKE THE TIME to not label everyone and clearly explain? Why does it take the OP to explain himself after saying it, and not when writing the original post?

I guess because I don't know I can't understand what he is saying then. All I can do is read what I see. All I see is players like me because I am not as good as him shouldn't be queing up. While many may do know and understand, those who don't know, can't understand and then see it as an attack we shouldn't play.

Just like how so many people here use short forms. Only short form I know is ESO. CC, DD EE what ever, I don't have a clue what people mean, so can't understand.

I just get upset when someone is blaming people to no fault of their own. It's like he can't accept he was once like people were. Like nobody can learn. NOW after a few posts I finally understand what he is trying to say. Thing is, why not say it in the original post he is not blaming newbies and people trying to learn? That is a HUGE difference. People really need to take the time. Just bc ppl k wht they are tlking aboot, doesn't mean everyone does.

I see where the Original poster is coming from now. Thank you again my friend.

Sarannah wrote: »

xSkullfox wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Marcus_Cassius wrote: »

Now if zenimax added some tutorials in game for those people instead of more crown store monetization that would help greatly .

My main problem is the base game content is so much easier now than it was at launch that players are never expected to learn how to do anything. Thinking back to launch and the fight against Doshia, I actually had to learn how to fight harvesters on the fly with a 30f snake lady chasing me and outhealing all my damage, but once I learned how to fight back it was easy. Nothing in the game now gives players a chance to actually figure out how to figure things out, leading to low pug qualities and causing any tanks with sense and who are done the idea of carrying pugs to quit using the finder. Both of those just build on each other as fake tanks cause more situations where people don't actually learn anything and all the good tanks find better uses of their time.

That is exactly the problem !

I do not think this is the problem. Overland content needs to be easy because players can start out anywhere and can go anywhere. Which is how it should be. People queue'ing for false roles has nothing to do with who tanks/heals or dps's, or even how good real roles are at those roles. It is about players abusing the role system by entering under false roles, because they think they are special and do not deserve a queue. While this punishes actual honest players who queue up for their real roles, and who do wait in queue.

Though there is a slight point in what you wrote... there should be a good healing/tanking(and dps) tutorial. If I had to make one, I would make a solo healer or tank dungeon in which your skills are replaced by only healing or only tank skills available to your class(depending on which tutorial solo dungeon you are running). And you have to complete the dungeon with only those 5 skills, tanking for or healing NPC's. These solo tutorial dungeons would ofcourse be always available to everyone, so players can both learn and relearn certain roles as they see fit and on whichever class they see fit. Personally I would place an NPC for each role next to the harborage's, who then teleport you to their role specific solo tutorial dungeon.

This however, is unrelated to the issue talked about in this topic.

This game would benefit greatly from a dungeon tutorial where players had to perform a specific combat role up to par in a group of NPCs to prepare them. So I really like your idea and hope the developers take note. Normal dungeons are insufficient as training grounds these days since many Veteran Players use them for speed runs which denies newer players the opportunity to learn the ropes of their combat role. Though I'm skeptical if normal dungeons would be sufficient training grounds for veteran content anyway.

This is especially the case in respect to DPS - which seems to be a common problem tanks complain about on here - though rarely for me to be honest. I have more problems with finding reliable healers in pugs. The thought of entering a dungeon as a tank without some ability to heal myself is a scary one. But because you do not need to have good DPS to obliterate landscape mobs, this probably does lead a lot of players to believe they are up to par on damage when they aren't.

A lot of DPS seem to think that "all the tank does" is soak up some damage and keep up a taunt. This kind of ignorance comes from people who don't play tanks in any serious way and have no idea how much multitasking you have to do to keep fights under control. The saddest thing about it, is that people who are routinely exposed to fake tanks will become accustomed to the sort of chaotic and unfun runs that come from the "tank" barely doing the minimum required.

You should be, as a tank:
1) Identifying and taunting the priority targets.
2) Grouping trash packs (including chaining in ranged mobs) and holding them still.
3) Taunting the boss and holding them still, not kiting them around the room so the DPS can't place any ground aoes for maximum damage.
4) Keeping up major breach and major fracture on the boss at all times.
5) Identifying when someone is being aggroed and pick the aggro up off them, not leaving them to die.
6) Interrupting problematic mechanics.
7) Paying attention to placement of the boss according to mechanics.
8) Paying attention to mechanics in general.
9) Keeping dangerous enemies and bosses turned away from the DPS.

To me, THIS is the bare minimum of what the tank brings. Buffing/debuffing is something that spoiled trial DPS demand, but is not necessary in order to perform your role well (before anyone tries to whine at me, I'm a necro tank and use only buff/debuff sets, but that's besides the point). Many people underestimate just what a tank does, because you don't get to be an end-game tank without being good at your role, and when you're good at your role, people don't notice most of what you're doing. They don't realise how vigilant and knowledgeable you need to be, how proactive, and how much multitasking is involved. None of these things are provided by fake tanks. If you're a cocky end-game DPS, however, you think all you have to do is slot inner fire and everything is dandy. You are ruining everyone's gaming experience and providing a terrible example to new players who don't know any better yet.

Protossyder wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Frostystuff no, you can definitely see the difference between a fake tank and a new/inexperienced tank. The fake tank runs around. The new tank knows where to be, but sometimes panics when they get hit hard. The fake tank yells at the DPS and healers when he dies. The new tank apologizes when you die. The fake tank talks about how he solo'd the current dungeon you are in. The new tank tells you this is his first time in the dungeon.

Last, the fake tank typically has a dumptruck of a DPS partner with him that he is "carrying" through the dungeon so its impossible to kick either of them.

Sorry, but this is bullsht.

Most new tanks (or new players) often have no idea where to stand and also lose aggro frequently. They don't "panic", when dropping low, they simply don't realize it happening and can't react properly..

A good fake tank has following attributes:
- He does more than enough dps himself (or together with his mates)
- He knows which dungeons can be easily fake tanked
- He knows that he himself is to blame if he dies
- He does not make a mountain out of a molehill if something goes wrong (unlike all the crybabies I see here), because the
dungeon is done 3 times faster anyways and there are other things to worry about than 5 minutes in a cave

Is this really such a big deal in ESO? Just asked to get kicked if you want to run with a real tank and queue again...

You missed the point. Its about cutting in line by selecting Tank and not your actual role.