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Has defence left the game?

  • festher
    festher
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    festher wrote: »
    trying to attach an image but that dosent work either.

    Anyway. In BG 23k spell and psy reisist is not low. 4k crist resist is not low. You have to put on some serious deff armor to get that. in my case full fortified brass which is ONLY deff and inpreg with is 2k crit resist + inpen on everything. so dont say its not much. otherwise tell me how you reach 30k and still have dmg and sustain?

    It is low. With reaper’s mark I get up at 18k pen as a magblade.

    If you think its low you dont know what the regular resistance in BG is. First of all fortified brass has the games highest resistance. impreg probably has the games highest crit resist. so my guess is your are MUCH lower. unless you run chudan/skel on top of my resistance i dont see how you get anywhere near. problem is for all the effort the payback is 0
    Edited by festher on August 17, 2019 1:33AM
  • Fur_like_snow
    Fur_like_snow
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    Okay resist numbers but bad heals and no weapon damage. Swap a defense set for an offensive set and try it again OP.
  • festher
    festher
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    Okay resist numbers but bad heals and no weapon damage. Swap a defense set for an offensive set and try it again OP.

    We are talking about resist numbers vs mitigation.
  • UrbanMonk
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    IMO, forget about defence unless you plan to play a Tank with No Damage or Healbot, this patch spec completely into offence and destroy your opponents as fast as you can. That is your only defence.
    Urban.Monk

    www.youtube.com/c/UrbanMonkGaming

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Balance for the Sake of Balance is no Balance at all.
  • jcm2606
    jcm2606
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    festher wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    festher wrote: »
    trying to attach an image but that dosent work either.

    Anyway. In BG 23k spell and psy reisist is not low. 4k crist resist is not low. You have to put on some serious deff armor to get that. in my case full fortified brass which is ONLY deff and inpreg with is 2k crit resist + inpen on everything. so dont say its not much. otherwise tell me how you reach 30k and still have dmg and sustain?

    It is low. With reaper’s mark I get up at 18k pen as a magblade.

    If you think its low you dont know what the regular resistance in BG is. First of all fortified brass has the games highest resistance. impreg probably has the games highest crit resist. so my guess is your are MUCH lower. unless you run chudan/skel on top of my resistance i dont see how you get anywhere near. problem is for all the effort the payback is 0

    If you think Fortified Brass has the game's highest resistance bonuses, lemme introduce you to my friend, Mark of the Pariah. He offers you 2975 phys and spell resist at all times as his 3- and 4-piece bonuses, and a whopping 11094 phys and spell resist as his 5-piece bonus, depending on your missing health.

    In all seriousness, 23k resist is pretty meh in BGs. Not the worst, but certainly not the best. My magDK with Pariah, Spinner's and Bloodspawn sits around there with just Volatile Armor up (26.6k spell, 21.5k phys). If I sit at 70% health, just 70% health, that jumps up to 29.1k spell & 24k phys. If Bloodspawn procs on top of that, I sit at 35.6k spell & 30.5k phys -- like 3k over the resist cap on spell, and 3k under the resist cap on phys. If I sit at 10% health with Bloodspawn up, I sit at 40.5k spell & 35.5k phys. Way, way over the cap on both.

    And that's with all 7 impen (1806 crit resist), a fairly strong damage set (3450 spell penetration), decent sustain (1956 mag recovery with a potion up, 1695 without, thanks to an infused mag recovery glyph), good spell damage (2724 with just Major Sorcery, 3266 with a weapon damage glyph up), and in light armour (heavy Pariah on chest/legs/jewelry, light everywhere else).
    @jcm2606 | PC NA | CP 1000+ | Stormproof | Boethia's Scythe
  • festher
    festher
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    I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

    I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment
  • InvictusApollo
    InvictusApollo
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    festher wrote: »
    Anyway. In BG 23k spell and psy reisist is not low. 4k crist resist is not low. You have to put on some serious deff armor to get that. in my case full fortified brass which is ONLY deff and inpreg with is 2k crit resist + inpen on everything. so dont say its not much. otherwise tell me how you reach 30k and still have dmg and sustain?

    I dropped you a hint in my previous comment on how to make tanky builds but it seems that you prefer to cry how squishy you are. Had you used that hint, you would be able to start theorycrafting a trully tanky build instead of just browsing sets on Alcasts page.

  • festher
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    go some where else with your cry comments _!_ and its not just me that is squishy
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    festher wrote: »
    I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

    I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment

    23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction

    Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.

    And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.

    Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.

    9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.

    So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power

    While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.

    TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.

    edit: corrected calculations
    Edited by MartiniDaniels on August 17, 2019 2:48PM
    Restart your router ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • festher
    festher
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    festher wrote: »
    I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

    I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment

    23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction

    Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.

    And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.

    Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.

    9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.

    So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power

    While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.

    TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.

    edit: corrected calculations

    Thank you for your responds and details. I love the medium armor passives and i think i have a hmm... unwillingness in going heavy on my stambuilds due to "how its supposed to be" but yes, medium is in such a dissadvanges now that i can no longer stick to my principbles unless i wanna burn out in frustrations. I will look into a heavy set. maybe Paraiah or Armor master or Cyridills Crest but something has to be done. my efforts in getting enough deff in medium failed
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    festher wrote: »
    festher wrote: »
    I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

    I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment

    23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction

    Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.

    And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.

    Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.

    9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.

    So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power

    While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.

    TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.

    edit: corrected calculations

    Thank you for your responds and details. I love the medium armor passives and i think i have a hmm... unwillingness in going heavy on my stambuilds due to "how its supposed to be" but yes, medium is in such a dissadvanges now that i can no longer stick to my principbles unless i wanna burn out in frustrations. I will look into a heavy set. maybe Paraiah or Armor master or Cyridills Crest but something has to be done. my efforts in getting enough deff in medium failed

    I am all for medium, I always play in it, yeah maybe sub-optimal but fun, but this week those dots were a little bit to much. I ended up using earthgore just to have enough time window to finish burst, but with those de-syncs and stun locks when you can't break free instantly, even it fails sometimes.
    Now I will probably just gulp unstoppable pots at initiation to avoid stun. If this won't be enough then there will be no other way then to switch to heavy..
    Restart your router ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • festher
    festher
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    I am all for medium, I always play in it, yeah maybe sub-optimal but fun, but this week those dots were a little bit to much. I ended up using earthgore just to have enough time window to finish burst, but with those de-syncs and stun locks when you can't break free instantly, even it fails sometimes.
    Now I will probably just gulp unstoppable pots at initiation to avoid stun. If this won't be enough then there will be no other way then to switch to heavy..

    Yea - a stun in BG is death for me more often than not, so i respect my Rally to Momentum for that reason alone
  • festher
    festher
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    I had one last BG with Spriggans/Briarheart/BS 1-5 hahaha... the kill i got was a charge on a dieing enemy.
    I was just dot'ed to death whenever i came close to the fight and didnt spam vigar and dark deal :smile:

    ill go find some lore books or skyshards. maybe look into my magblade and join the dot party

    Edited by festher on August 17, 2019 7:09PM
  • OtarTheMad
    OtarTheMad
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    I think defense and counters have been put on a back burner cause it's not sexy. People just want to destroy others in like 2-3 hits.
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  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    OtarTheMad wrote: »
    I think defense and counters have been put on a back burner cause it's not sexy. People just want to destroy others in like 2-3 hits.

    Maybe that’s the rationale, but it’s not true. Getting destroyed in 2-3 hits is what most PvEers hate about pvp.
    festher wrote: »
    I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

    I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment

    23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction

    Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.

    And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.

    Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.

    9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.

    So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power

    While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.

    TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.

    edit: corrected calculations

    Mostly correct but you’ve forgotten battle spirit. If the resistances left over after pen is 20% resistances it’s effect is 10%.

    50% reduction from battle spirit. 20% of the remainder is shaved off so the total effective mitigation is 60%.
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    OtarTheMad wrote: »
    I think defense and counters have been put on a back burner cause it's not sexy. People just want to destroy others in like 2-3 hits.

    Maybe that’s the rationale, but it’s not true. Getting destroyed in 2-3 hits is what most PvEers hate about pvp.
    festher wrote: »
    I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

    I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment

    23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction

    Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.

    And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.

    Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.

    9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.

    So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power

    While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.

    TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.

    edit: corrected calculations

    Mostly correct but you’ve forgotten battle spirit. If the resistances left over after pen is 20% resistances it’s effect is 10%.

    50% reduction from battle spirit. 20% of the remainder is shaved off so the total effective mitigation is 60%.

    Well, I'm not especially good with math nowadays, but I thought dividing tooltip at half and then applying 20,30,40% will bring same as result as 50+20/2, 50+30/2, 50+40/2 etc?

    For example tooltip is 20k. After battlespirit it turns to 10k and then 30% mitigation, so it will end up in 7k. If we will multiply 20k for 65% mitigation calculated your way it will be 20*(1-0.65)=7k.

    Anyway, it seems ZOS overlooked non-linear gains from resistances due to penetration and so optimal fully buffed resistance for any non-gank build is like 30k, but you must sacrifice too much on medium armor to reach that and so WD will be relatively low and bonus from WD passive will be low too. Low WD = low healing with no shields, this is GG if medium armor didn't burst opponent in first few seconds. And ZOS granted onslaught for that, but this is hard countered by templar... and then that clear nerf to efficient purge. Either this patch is completely biased to increase toxicity to move away attention from disgusting performance or devs don't understand what they are doing.
    Or like some people say - we don't see full picture. Oh okay, we may take bets for U24 if we will see full picture in there :astonished:
    Restart your router ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    OtarTheMad wrote: »
    I think defense and counters have been put on a back burner cause it's not sexy. People just want to destroy others in like 2-3 hits.

    Maybe that’s the rationale, but it’s not true. Getting destroyed in 2-3 hits is what most PvEers hate about pvp.
    festher wrote: »
    I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

    I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment

    23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction

    Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.

    And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.

    Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.

    9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.

    So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power

    While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.

    TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.

    edit: corrected calculations

    Mostly correct but you’ve forgotten battle spirit. If the resistances left over after pen is 20% resistances it’s effect is 10%.

    50% reduction from battle spirit. 20% of the remainder is shaved off so the total effective mitigation is 60%.

    Well, I'm not especially good with math nowadays, but I thought dividing tooltip at half and then applying 20,30,40% will bring same as result as 50+20/2, 50+30/2, 50+40/2 etc?

    For example tooltip is 20k. After battlespirit it turns to 10k and then 30% mitigation, so it will end up in 7k. If we will multiply 20k for 65% mitigation calculated your way it will be 20*(1-0.65)=7k.

    Anyway, it seems ZOS overlooked non-linear gains from resistances due to penetration and so optimal fully buffed resistance for any non-gank build is like 30k, but you must sacrifice too much on medium armor to reach that and so WD will be relatively low and bonus from WD passive will be low too. Low WD = low healing with no shields, this is GG if medium armor didn't burst opponent in first few seconds. And ZOS granted onslaught for that, but this is hard countered by templar... and then that clear nerf to efficient purge. Either this patch is completely biased to increase toxicity to move away attention from disgusting performance or devs don't understand what they are doing.
    Or like some people say - we don't see full picture. Oh okay, we may take bets for U24 if we will see full picture in there :astonished:

    Yup, that’s right.

    It’s the protective trait change that messed things up combined with Onslaught.

    If someone tries to invest in resistances the first 10k or so investment does nothing because of penetration. So people need to go up to 20k (1 defensive set) then the issue becomes 10k remaining isn’t enough to be tanky. So people either add bloodspawn or another defensive set.

    With bloodspawn you’ll have downtime and lots of periods you can be bursted. Add another 5 piece defensive set and you’ll have consistent mitigation and can hit 30k resistances.

    Then someone comes up and hits onslaught and it’s like you’re naked again, at the same time your healing and damage abilities are close to halved because you’ve spent so much on resistances.

    People can disagree with ZoS but it’s obviously by design. ZoS wants pvp to be bursty with everyone in a glass canon build with no defensive sets because one is useless. Is it pvp? Not to me, if I can be bursted with no counterplay then it’s just my spec vs another player’s burst combo. It seems like this is the kind of game some people like though since they’ve been complaining about tank specs for a while.
    Edited by Iskiab on August 18, 2019 1:22PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • festher
    festher
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    OtarTheMad wrote: »
    I think defense and counters have been put on a back burner cause it's not sexy. People just want to destroy others in like 2-3 hits.

    Maybe that’s the rationale, but it’s not true. Getting destroyed in 2-3 hits is what most PvEers hate about pvp.
    festher wrote: »
    I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1

    I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment

    23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction

    Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.

    And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.

    Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.

    9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.

    So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power

    While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.

    TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.

    edit: corrected calculations

    Mostly correct but you’ve forgotten battle spirit. If the resistances left over after pen is 20% resistances it’s effect is 10%.

    50% reduction from battle spirit. 20% of the remainder is shaved off so the total effective mitigation is 60%.

    Well, I'm not especially good with math nowadays, but I thought dividing tooltip at half and then applying 20,30,40% will bring same as result as 50+20/2, 50+30/2, 50+40/2 etc?

    For example tooltip is 20k. After battlespirit it turns to 10k and then 30% mitigation, so it will end up in 7k. If we will multiply 20k for 65% mitigation calculated your way it will be 20*(1-0.65)=7k.

    Anyway, it seems ZOS overlooked non-linear gains from resistances due to penetration and so optimal fully buffed resistance for any non-gank build is like 30k, but you must sacrifice too much on medium armor to reach that and so WD will be relatively low and bonus from WD passive will be low too. Low WD = low healing with no shields, this is GG if medium armor didn't burst opponent in first few seconds. And ZOS granted onslaught for that, but this is hard countered by templar... and then that clear nerf to efficient purge. Either this patch is completely biased to increase toxicity to move away attention from disgusting performance or devs don't understand what they are doing.
    Or like some people say - we don't see full picture. Oh okay, we may take bets for U24 if we will see full picture in there :astonished:

    Yup, that’s right.

    It’s the protective trait change that messed things up combined with Onslaught.

    If someone tries to invest in resistances the first 10k or so investment does nothing because of penetration. So people need to go up to 20k (1 defensive set) then the issue becomes 10k remaining isn’t enough to be tanky. So people either add bloodspawn or another defensive set.

    With bloodspawn you’ll have downtime and lots of periods you can be bursted. Add another 5 piece defensive set and you’ll have consistent mitigation and can hit 30k resistances.

    Then someone comes up and hits onslaught and it’s like you’re naked again, at the same time your healing and damage abilities are close to halved because you’ve spent so much on resistances.

    People can disagree with ZoS but it’s obviously by design. ZoS wants pvp to be bursty with everyone in a glass canon build with no defensive sets because one is useless. Is it pvp? Not to me, if I can be bursted with no counterplay then it’s just my spec vs another player’s burst combo. It seems like this is the kind of game some people like though since they’ve been complaining about tank specs for a while.

    Yes exactly. not my cup of tee either. there is no "thinking" invovled and the only defense seems to be running around a tree.

    i added 2 defensive sets and my stam is now 24k in BGs and weapon damage is now 1500 inside a BG. i dont lose 0-12 now but instead i lose 0-2. just great...
  • fred4
    fred4
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    I feel there is something off about this patch. I have not played nor encountered enough of a variety of builds, but templar Sweeps ( / Jabs? ) feels like it does an inordinate amount of damage. I feel it when attacked by a templar in CP open world, but also when I took my magplar into vMA. I did not change my build at first, which meant I was using ground target AOEs, rather than the new single-target DOTs. It felt like Sweeps is doing markedly more damage, despite an unchanged tooltip. That said, I hadn't played my templar in some time. I could be wrong.
    PC EU, Stamina DK (EP), Magicka NB (EP), Magicka Warden (EP), Magicka Templar (EP). Occasionally: Stamina Templar (EP), Stamina NB (AD), Stamina Sorcerer (DC)
  • BaiterOfZergs
    BaiterOfZergs
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    fred4 wrote: »
    I feel there is something off about this patch. I have not played nor encountered enough of a variety of builds, but templar Sweeps ( / Jabs? ) feels like it does an inordinate amount of damage. I feel it when attacked by a templar in CP open world, but also when I took my magplar into vMA. I did not change my build at first, which meant I was using ground target AOEs, rather than the new single-target DOTs. It felt like Sweeps is doing markedly more damage, despite an unchanged tooltip. That said, I hadn't played my templar in some time. I could be wrong.

    They’ve been hitting hard for awhile, the problem has been landing them. As far as pve I’ve always used sweeps or jabs , they get the job done.
    Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.
  • BaByDontHurtMe
    BaByDontHurtMe
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    Use more dots.
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    ✭✭
    fred4 wrote: »
    I feel there is something off about this patch. I have not played nor encountered enough of a variety of builds, but templar Sweeps ( / Jabs? ) feels like it does an inordinate amount of damage. I feel it when attacked by a templar in CP open world, but also when I took my magplar into vMA. I did not change my build at first, which meant I was using ground target AOEs, rather than the new single-target DOTs. It felt like Sweeps is doing markedly more damage, despite an unchanged tooltip. That said, I hadn't played my templar in some time. I could be wrong.

    I agree, something feels off. Jabs is hitting super strong, so is crit surge and a couple other abilities. It could be people playing with the shadow mundus, I’m not sure.

    Crit resists have fallen too far behind crit modifiers. With minor force and the shadow mundus you can hit 83% crit modifier, 93% with Khajit. 1805 crit resistance from all impen is only 25%, so people can easily get a 50-60% crit modifier and use sets for auto crits.

    Either this patch is the culmination of numerous tweaks to favour damage over defense or something’s off with damage calculations on live. I’m not sure what the cause is.
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • HaruKamui
    HaruKamui
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    fred4 wrote: »
    I feel there is something off about this patch. I have not played nor encountered enough of a variety of builds, but templar Sweeps ( / Jabs? ) feels like it does an inordinate amount of damage. I feel it when attacked by a templar in CP open world, but also when I took my magplar into vMA. I did not change my build at first, which meant I was using ground target AOEs, rather than the new single-target DOTs. It felt like Sweeps is doing markedly more damage, despite an unchanged tooltip. That said, I hadn't played my templar in some time. I could be wrong.

    I kinda felt this too last night. Both using my templar, and my magblade and being damaged by sweeps. But it might be because my magblade build hasnt been updated yet for this patch. I didnt pay it any mind but seeing that you guys noticed it as well.... hmm.
    A trickster; both light and dark, heroic and villainous, foolish and wise.

    EP Hit Squad
    Haru Kamui - Dunmer Magicka Nightblade
    Haru Homura - Breton Magicka Templar
    Haru Yuuto - Dunmer Stamina Sorcerer

    #GiveMagbladesSnareRemoval <--- Getting some form of this in Elsweyr, sweet!
  • Sergykid
    Sergykid
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    TBois wrote: »
    The protection buffs are more mitigation than stacking resistances. Also passive heals are better for the dot meta. Maybe try pariah/alessian/troll king

    i am trying this build right now, pariah alessian and trollking. Doesn't work, i take 6k frags 6k executes, etc. Just about the same damage i take on my light armor mage build. I tried switching trollking with bloodspawn, a bit better results but can't tank two people. I can survive one guy forever but the second guy comes, pressure becomes too big. I am stamdk and i talk about battlegrounds, so noCP.

    if someone can help me building to survive 2+ people, whisper me please. I know resistances are less important than protection buffs, but what else i can apply? i have minor protection up from an ability, but major protection i can't have. I also apply minor maim from low slash.

    what is this forum and why i don't like it:
    - complainers that cry without reason and without solution
    - trolls that give cheap or useless answers
    - people giving advice with counters that are not viable
    - bloggers that talk about their day or what they use in game
    - roleplayers that talk about fashion
    - people with solutions or bug reports are ignored
    - people that write walls of text without reason
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    ✭✭
    festher wrote: »
    Got tired of speed-deaths in BG's so i tuned defence up and up and UP to no avail.

    My last BG i was wearing impreg (weapon/jewlery) + Fortified brass (medium) giving me 23k HP, 2300 resist (18k unbuffed) and 3400 crit resist on BOTH bars, but felt naked still.

    i dont belive in defence. i dont belive the numbers are working

    a piece of advide:

    Buffer of the swift + Vampires cloak = 18% less dmg on PvP
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • No_Division
    No_Division
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    Forget resistance as a form of mitigation

    You want major protection first, then minor if no major
    You want Maim, you really want a way to maim
    Then you want healz,

    You must mitigate via LoS and positions in BGs as well

    and for teammates, pickup transmutation.
  • katorga
    katorga
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    Forget resistance as a form of mitigation

    You want major protection first, then minor if no major
    You want Maim, you really want a way to maim
    Then you want healz,

    You must mitigate via LoS and positions in BGs as well

    That combo is 40% mitigation or equal to 26.4K armor. There ya go, for a light/medium armor player it puts you at around 35K effective.

    What gives pause is if this is so good, why isn't magicka Necromancer the most overwhelmingly OP class there is?


  • No_Division
    No_Division
    ✭✭✭
    katorga wrote: »
    Forget resistance as a form of mitigation

    You want major protection first, then minor if no major
    You want Maim, you really want a way to maim
    Then you want healz,

    You must mitigate via LoS and positions in BGs as well

    That combo is 40% mitigation or equal to 26.4K armor. There ya go, for a light/medium armor player it puts you at around 35K effective.

    What gives pause is if this is so good, why isn't magicka Necromancer the most overwhelmingly OP class there is?


    it is. problem is for that defense power, its got worse mobility than templar and even worse dmg than magden.
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    katorga wrote: »
    Forget resistance as a form of mitigation

    You want major protection first, then minor if no major
    You want Maim, you really want a way to maim
    Then you want healz,

    You must mitigate via LoS and positions in BGs as well

    That combo is 40% mitigation or equal to 26.4K armor. There ya go, for a light/medium armor player it puts you at around 35K effective.

    What gives pause is if this is so good, why isn't magicka Necromancer the most overwhelmingly OP class there is?


    They are extremely difficult to kill if they build for it. But you have a hell of a time dealing damage (I haven't experienced scalebreaker yet so that may change)

    With scale changes I may be inclined to try again
    Gamer tag: ShenronNacht NA Xbox One
    1100+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er
    Shepherd of Rot - Stamina Necromancer BG Archer - No Gank
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