trying to attach an image but that dosent work either.
Anyway. In BG 23k spell and psy reisist is not low. 4k crist resist is not low. You have to put on some serious deff armor to get that. in my case full fortified brass which is ONLY deff and inpreg with is 2k crit resist + inpen on everything. so dont say its not much. otherwise tell me how you reach 30k and still have dmg and sustain?
It is low. With reaper’s mark I get up at 18k pen as a magblade.
Fur_like_snow wrote: »Okay resist numbers but bad heals and no weapon damage. Swap a defense set for an offensive set and try it again OP.
trying to attach an image but that dosent work either.
Anyway. In BG 23k spell and psy reisist is not low. 4k crist resist is not low. You have to put on some serious deff armor to get that. in my case full fortified brass which is ONLY deff and inpreg with is 2k crit resist + inpen on everything. so dont say its not much. otherwise tell me how you reach 30k and still have dmg and sustain?
It is low. With reaper’s mark I get up at 18k pen as a magblade.
If you think its low you dont know what the regular resistance in BG is. First of all fortified brass has the games highest resistance. impreg probably has the games highest crit resist. so my guess is your are MUCH lower. unless you run chudan/skel on top of my resistance i dont see how you get anywhere near. problem is for all the effort the payback is 0
Anyway. In BG 23k spell and psy reisist is not low. 4k crist resist is not low. You have to put on some serious deff armor to get that. in my case full fortified brass which is ONLY deff and inpreg with is 2k crit resist + inpen on everything. so dont say its not much. otherwise tell me how you reach 30k and still have dmg and sustain?
I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1
I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment
MartiniDaniels wrote: »I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1
I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment
23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction
Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.
And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.
Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.
9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.
So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power
While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.
TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.
edit: corrected calculations
MartiniDaniels wrote: »I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1
I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment
23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction
Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.
And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.
Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.
9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.
So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power
While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.
TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.
edit: corrected calculations
Thank you for your responds and details. I love the medium armor passives and i think i have a hmm... unwillingness in going heavy on my stambuilds due to "how its supposed to be" but yes, medium is in such a dissadvanges now that i can no longer stick to my principbles unless i wanna burn out in frustrations. I will look into a heavy set. maybe Paraiah or Armor master or Cyridills Crest but something has to be done. my efforts in getting enough deff in medium failed
MartiniDaniels wrote: »I am all for medium, I always play in it, yeah maybe sub-optimal but fun, but this week those dots were a little bit to much. I ended up using earthgore just to have enough time window to finish burst, but with those de-syncs and stun locks when you can't break free instantly, even it fails sometimes.
Now I will probably just gulp unstoppable pots at initiation to avoid stun. If this won't be enough then there will be no other way then to switch to heavy..
OtarTheMad wrote: »I think defense and counters have been put on a back burner cause it's not sexy. People just want to destroy others in like 2-3 hits.
MartiniDaniels wrote: »I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1
I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment
23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction
Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.
And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.
Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.
9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.
So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power
While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.
TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.
edit: corrected calculations
OtarTheMad wrote: »I think defense and counters have been put on a back burner cause it's not sexy. People just want to destroy others in like 2-3 hits.
Maybe that’s the rationale, but it’s not true. Getting destroyed in 2-3 hits is what most PvEers hate about pvp.MartiniDaniels wrote: »I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1
I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment
23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction
Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.
And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.
Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.
9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.
So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power
While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.
TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.
edit: corrected calculations
Mostly correct but you’ve forgotten battle spirit. If the resistances left over after pen is 20% resistances it’s effect is 10%.
50% reduction from battle spirit. 20% of the remainder is shaved off so the total effective mitigation is 60%.
MartiniDaniels wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I think defense and counters have been put on a back burner cause it's not sexy. People just want to destroy others in like 2-3 hits.
Maybe that’s the rationale, but it’s not true. Getting destroyed in 2-3 hits is what most PvEers hate about pvp.MartiniDaniels wrote: »I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1
I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment
23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction
Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.
And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.
Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.
9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.
So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power
While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.
TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.
edit: corrected calculations
Mostly correct but you’ve forgotten battle spirit. If the resistances left over after pen is 20% resistances it’s effect is 10%.
50% reduction from battle spirit. 20% of the remainder is shaved off so the total effective mitigation is 60%.
Well, I'm not especially good with math nowadays, but I thought dividing tooltip at half and then applying 20,30,40% will bring same as result as 50+20/2, 50+30/2, 50+40/2 etc?
For example tooltip is 20k. After battlespirit it turns to 10k and then 30% mitigation, so it will end up in 7k. If we will multiply 20k for 65% mitigation calculated your way it will be 20*(1-0.65)=7k.
Anyway, it seems ZOS overlooked non-linear gains from resistances due to penetration and so optimal fully buffed resistance for any non-gank build is like 30k, but you must sacrifice too much on medium armor to reach that and so WD will be relatively low and bonus from WD passive will be low too. Low WD = low healing with no shields, this is GG if medium armor didn't burst opponent in first few seconds. And ZOS granted onslaught for that, but this is hard countered by templar... and then that clear nerf to efficient purge. Either this patch is completely biased to increase toxicity to move away attention from disgusting performance or devs don't understand what they are doing.
Or like some people say - we don't see full picture. Oh okay, we may take bets for U24 if we will see full picture in there
MartiniDaniels wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I think defense and counters have been put on a back burner cause it's not sexy. People just want to destroy others in like 2-3 hits.
Maybe that’s the rationale, but it’s not true. Getting destroyed in 2-3 hits is what most PvEers hate about pvp.MartiniDaniels wrote: »I know Pariah: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/383840/math-pvp-defensive-set-comparison-impreg-brass-pariah-riposte-more/p1
I have BS too both pieces with inpen and i still look naked on the recap. My 23k resist is only with Major buff. And my point remains - its high and its a bad investment
23k is not high enough to matter, nuance is that damage reduction is not linear. For example currently we have issue with magicka dots. Magicka has 4.85k pen from light armor, 5.28k from ele drain and then 10% of what's left due to destro passive. So your 23k is actually (23-4.85-5.28)=13.27 / 660 = 20% damage reduction
Now imagine some armor master sorc with 30k spell resistance. Result will be (30-4.85-5.28)= 30% damage reduction.
And now same for DK nord with 37k spell resistance. (37-4.85-5.28)=41% damage reduction.
Let's take 24k dot. It will deal 24/2*0.8=9.6k damage to you, 8.4k to sorc and 7.08 to nord.
9.6/7.08 = 1.35. This means you will receive ~35% more damage then DK nord. Yeah, your weapon damage is higher, but is your effective power 30% higher? of course not, because lion's share of effective power comes from max stamina and base weapon damage and medium armor passive will grant you only ~ +500 final WD.
So for example heavy armor has 4.3k WD full buffed with all procs + 27k stamina = 2700+4300*1.05= 7215 effective weapon power
While your build in medium armor will have 5k WD + 27k stamina = 2700+5000*1.05=7950 effective weapon power, which is 7950/7215=1.1 -> 10% more then nord DK. So you will receive 35% more damage from sorc, while doing only 10% more damage to sorc. That means that heavy armor build has much higher chances to wear down sorc until he runs out of magicka.
TL;DR - That's why medium armor sucks - it receives way more damage then gives extra.
edit: corrected calculations
Mostly correct but you’ve forgotten battle spirit. If the resistances left over after pen is 20% resistances it’s effect is 10%.
50% reduction from battle spirit. 20% of the remainder is shaved off so the total effective mitigation is 60%.
Well, I'm not especially good with math nowadays, but I thought dividing tooltip at half and then applying 20,30,40% will bring same as result as 50+20/2, 50+30/2, 50+40/2 etc?
For example tooltip is 20k. After battlespirit it turns to 10k and then 30% mitigation, so it will end up in 7k. If we will multiply 20k for 65% mitigation calculated your way it will be 20*(1-0.65)=7k.
Anyway, it seems ZOS overlooked non-linear gains from resistances due to penetration and so optimal fully buffed resistance for any non-gank build is like 30k, but you must sacrifice too much on medium armor to reach that and so WD will be relatively low and bonus from WD passive will be low too. Low WD = low healing with no shields, this is GG if medium armor didn't burst opponent in first few seconds. And ZOS granted onslaught for that, but this is hard countered by templar... and then that clear nerf to efficient purge. Either this patch is completely biased to increase toxicity to move away attention from disgusting performance or devs don't understand what they are doing.
Or like some people say - we don't see full picture. Oh okay, we may take bets for U24 if we will see full picture in there
Yup, that’s right.
It’s the protective trait change that messed things up combined with Onslaught.
If someone tries to invest in resistances the first 10k or so investment does nothing because of penetration. So people need to go up to 20k (1 defensive set) then the issue becomes 10k remaining isn’t enough to be tanky. So people either add bloodspawn or another defensive set.
With bloodspawn you’ll have downtime and lots of periods you can be bursted. Add another 5 piece defensive set and you’ll have consistent mitigation and can hit 30k resistances.
Then someone comes up and hits onslaught and it’s like you’re naked again, at the same time your healing and damage abilities are close to halved because you’ve spent so much on resistances.
People can disagree with ZoS but it’s obviously by design. ZoS wants pvp to be bursty with everyone in a glass canon build with no defensive sets because one is useless. Is it pvp? Not to me, if I can be bursted with no counterplay then it’s just my spec vs another player’s burst combo. It seems like this is the kind of game some people like though since they’ve been complaining about tank specs for a while.
I feel there is something off about this patch. I have not played nor encountered enough of a variety of builds, but templar Sweeps ( / Jabs? ) feels like it does an inordinate amount of damage. I feel it when attacked by a templar in CP open world, but also when I took my magplar into vMA. I did not change my build at first, which meant I was using ground target AOEs, rather than the new single-target DOTs. It felt like Sweeps is doing markedly more damage, despite an unchanged tooltip. That said, I hadn't played my templar in some time. I could be wrong.
I feel there is something off about this patch. I have not played nor encountered enough of a variety of builds, but templar Sweeps ( / Jabs? ) feels like it does an inordinate amount of damage. I feel it when attacked by a templar in CP open world, but also when I took my magplar into vMA. I did not change my build at first, which meant I was using ground target AOEs, rather than the new single-target DOTs. It felt like Sweeps is doing markedly more damage, despite an unchanged tooltip. That said, I hadn't played my templar in some time. I could be wrong.
I feel there is something off about this patch. I have not played nor encountered enough of a variety of builds, but templar Sweeps ( / Jabs? ) feels like it does an inordinate amount of damage. I feel it when attacked by a templar in CP open world, but also when I took my magplar into vMA. I did not change my build at first, which meant I was using ground target AOEs, rather than the new single-target DOTs. It felt like Sweeps is doing markedly more damage, despite an unchanged tooltip. That said, I hadn't played my templar in some time. I could be wrong.
The protection buffs are more mitigation than stacking resistances. Also passive heals are better for the dot meta. Maybe try pariah/alessian/troll king
Got tired of speed-deaths in BG's so i tuned defence up and up and UP to no avail.
My last BG i was wearing impreg (weapon/jewlery) + Fortified brass (medium) giving me 23k HP, 2300 resist (18k unbuffed) and 3400 crit resist on BOTH bars, but felt naked still.
i dont belive in defence. i dont belive the numbers are working
Waffennacht wrote: »Forget resistance as a form of mitigation
You want major protection first, then minor if no major
You want Maim, you really want a way to maim
Then you want healz,
You must mitigate via LoS and positions in BGs as well
Waffennacht wrote: »Forget resistance as a form of mitigation
You want major protection first, then minor if no major
You want Maim, you really want a way to maim
Then you want healz,
You must mitigate via LoS and positions in BGs as well
Waffennacht wrote: »Forget resistance as a form of mitigation
You want major protection first, then minor if no major
You want Maim, you really want a way to maim
Then you want healz,
You must mitigate via LoS and positions in BGs as well
That combo is 40% mitigation or equal to 26.4K armor. There ya go, for a light/medium armor player it puts you at around 35K effective.
What gives pause is if this is so good, why isn't magicka Necromancer the most overwhelmingly OP class there is?
Waffennacht wrote: »Forget resistance as a form of mitigation
You want major protection first, then minor if no major
You want Maim, you really want a way to maim
Then you want healz,
You must mitigate via LoS and positions in BGs as well
That combo is 40% mitigation or equal to 26.4K armor. There ya go, for a light/medium armor player it puts you at around 35K effective.
What gives pause is if this is so good, why isn't magicka Necromancer the most overwhelmingly OP class there is?