yea...this patch is not going to be well received when it releases

mongoLC · August 2019

Everyone just needs to find a new game for this patch cycle. Cancel your subs and move on for a bit. What's crazy is Wrobel was terrible and now this new guy is like 100x worse.

Sanguinor2 · August 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

Vigor got nerfed primarily due to people cheesing the tool tips make it seem OP. Healers are actually gonna do their role and will have to build a rotation similar to dps also will require psijic skill line. Remember there was a time a healer could BoL trials

Allow me to respectuflly disagree with healers being able to BoL any serious Trial as those are what I and others are concerned About. That might have been the case many years ago? But certainly not now or in the few past Patches, or was it in normal Trials? You can heal those with vigor so thats not saying much.
Healers also did their role before and anyone spamming only 1 or 2 abilities was either a bad healer or an inexperienced one.

Sanguinor2 · August 2019

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Good thing about standards is that it makes it really easy to balance in the long run.
Example: Dots are performing way better than we expected? Great, let's adjust the formula (damage/cost), we don't need to do 3 months of investigating, we can put forward the changes next week on a incremental patch, it's just values after all.

That's the theory at least...

Thats a nice Theory and all but thats not how Zos operates. It is very rare that anything Combat related gets changed in an incremental, if that were to Change I wouldnt complain but I dont see that Happening, in the last 2 years I can barely remember anything Combat related that got changed in an incremental/hotifx outside of glyphgate and necro bash, well I should rather say anything comat related that isnt a bug.

josh.lackey_ESO · August 2019

So it will be no different from most patches since Morrowind.

BattleAxe · August 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Vigor got nerfed primarily due to people cheesing the tool tips make it seem OP. Healers are actually gonna do their role and will have to build a rotation similar to dps also will require psijic skill line. Remember there was a time a healer could BoL trials

Allow me to respectuflly disagree with healers being able to BoL any serious Trial as those are what I and others are concerned About. That might have been the case many years ago? But certainly not now or in the few past Patches, or was it in normal Trials? You can heal those with vigor so thats not saying much.
Healers also did their role before and anyone spamming only 1 or 2 abilities was either a bad healer or an inexperienced one.

Keyword was healers used to be able to BoL trials and spamming 1-2 abilities most trials healers spammed maybe 3 abilities springs orbs and combat prayer.

Lokey0024 · August 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

most of the changes are logical.

they have figured out some of the top performance hogs is aoe so they:

1) limited popular spammable aoes ( springs, orbs, vigor)

more people will now take the single target vigor and the other morph has 2 second tics.

2) they nerfed aoe dots and buffed single target dots so more will now use the single target than the aoe dots

you all wanted performance fixes and this is how thats done.

Why do people keep calling vigor a spammable? Spamming vigor does nothing but waste your stamina.

Because good Stam players try to keep it close to 100% uptime when in PvP battles.

What they don't want to acknowledge is how badly Stam HoTs dominated DoTs (and most damage in general) previously, so much that most Stam players never had the need for any burst heal and ran momentum in heavy instead of Rally, making it as mobile as medium. Now they can rock heavy armor but be susceptible to snares because they will need rally as DoTs slightly outpace HoTs.

sindalstar · August 2019

None of the patches have been well received. Something always upsets someone.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

AT ALL. So many unnecessary changes all together, with so little time to test in such an unstable environment. ***, they are even starting to destroy their combat system. Cast time on ults...silly me who was thinking the problem here was wrobel...

half of us Like the changes.

Where is this half?

They don't seem to be here.

That's right
They're in the game. Playing it

Kaysha · August 2019

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

AT ALL. So many unnecessary changes all together, with so little time to test in such an unstable environment. ***, they are even starting to destroy their combat system. Cast time on ults...silly me who was thinking the problem here was wrobel...

half of us Like the changes.

Where is this half?

They don't seem to be

I am part of the half that likes the changes 😉

Mayrael · August 2019

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

This has honestly been one of the best patches yet not everything is perfect but regardless people are failing to remember they are still looking into the cp system and standardization will make for easier work in future patches meaning less time in combat and more into bug fixes and such. We the players often look only at what is specifically hitting us and not thing into the broad spectrum of where these changes can and likely will lead.

Combat and Bugfix People are very likely completely separate Teams so bugfix stuff is not gonna Change unless Zos is willing to spend more Money on them which they could decide to regardless of the Situation of the Combat Team.
Concerning some changes a "yeah we might look at this later" is really not helping, healing changes for example, when the Response towards some phases in Trials becoming very very hard or impossible to heal is, we might look into that later (aka Minimum 3 months later) is really not helping.
Increasing DoT Damage by as much as they did but only increasing healing Output of magicka builds and nerfing the healing Output of Stamina builds is very very shortsighted and a "we might look into that later" doesnt help there either.
Standardization feels Pretty bad to me the way it is Right now and certainly does not inspire confidence when all it does is make builds Slot many similar non class abilities in favor of their own class ones.

Good thing about standards is that it makes it really easy to balance in the long run.
Example: Dots are performing way better than we expected? Great, let's adjust the formula (damage/cost), we don't need to do 3 months of investigating, we can put forward the changes next week on a incremental patch, it's just values after all.

That's the theory at least...

Yes it is but only when you take little steps. ZOS on the other hand has proven many times they don't know what it means to do slight adjustments, they usually make things OP or useless. So when they will see dots are OP they will nerf them so hard, that nobody will use them again.

I think it's because they are lacking the bigger picture. They approach each skill and set individually, while what they need to do is to see how they work in combination with other skills and sets.

Hawke9 · August 2019

Some of the changes I like. Some I don't. Healers and Tanks are only needed if you're doing pub groups, so the nerfs only hurt pub groups. The best way to cc or tank an enemy is to nuke it to death. What is there to cc if the thing is already dead? What damage is there to take if the thing dealing damage is dead? If you're in a premade, why not just take 4 damage dealers, nuke the enemies, and have some basic healing pots to heal any damage you take? The best defense is a good offense and all that, right?

The nerfs to AoE damage may slow dungeon and trials down as well. I'm not an avid runner, I tend to only run Vet Dungeons if I need a helm, so I tend to stick to normal. I can't speak to the hardcore runners, but it seems like this may slow runs down since you'll have to take care of trash mobs with basic attacks, or wait for your stam/mana to refill between trash groups. Like I said, can't speak for them, just something I noticed.

Werewolves, the thing I'm most upset with, also seem rather useless now compared to Vampire, because of how Bleed is basically nerfed to Oblivion. Ultimates are suppose to be this grand attack you use to turn the tide of battle, but now... What are they suppose to do? Since bleeds got hit, am I suppose to tank with Hiricine's Fortitude and Claws of Life? If so, why not just be a Vampire and have easy mode thanks to the passives, and have an open Ultimate slot? Or, am I suppose to be a debuffer with Deafening Roar and the Dire Wolves? If so, why not use something like Unnerving Boneyard, Weakness to Elements, Choking Talons, Thurvokun or another source of Major Breach and/or Minor Maim?

All in all, there are some trouble spots that quite honestly need fixing. I'm kinda meh about these changes. Nothing really excites me. Nothing makes me want to try another class, or playstyle. I'm a tank, so the DPS nerfs don't overly affect me too much.

Aznarb · August 2019

Kaysha wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

AT ALL. So many unnecessary changes all together, with so little time to test in such an unstable environment. ***, they are even starting to destroy their combat system. Cast time on ults...silly me who was thinking the problem here was wrobel...

half of us Like the changes.

Where is this half?

They don't seem to be

I am part of the half that likes the changes 😉

Same here, I like change, the 1st patch was horrible for healer, but it's fine now.
All build are ready, just can't wait

BattleAxe · August 2019

Hawke9 wrote: »

Some of the changes I like. Some I don't. Healers and Tanks are only needed if you're doing pub groups, so the nerfs only hurt pub groups. The best way to cc or tank an enemy is to nuke it to death. What is there to cc if the thing is already dead? What damage is there to take if the thing dealing damage is dead? If you're in a premade, why not just take 4 damage dealers, nuke the enemies, and have some basic healing pots to heal any damage you take? The best defense is a good offense and all that, right?

The nerfs to AoE damage may slow dungeon and trials down as well. I'm not an avid runner, I tend to only run Vet Dungeons if I need a helm, so I tend to stick to normal. I can't speak to the hardcore runners, but it seems like this may slow runs down since you'll have to take care of trash mobs with basic attacks, or wait for your stam/mana to refill between trash groups. Like I said, can't speak for them, just something I noticed.

Werewolves, the thing I'm most upset with, also seem rather useless now compared to Vampire, because of how Bleed is basically nerfed to Oblivion. Ultimates are suppose to be this grand attack you use to turn the tide of battle, but now... What are they suppose to do? Since bleeds got hit, am I suppose to tank with Hiricine's Fortitude and Claws of Life? If so, why not just be a Vampire and have easy mode thanks to the passives, and have an open Ultimate slot? Or, am I suppose to be a debuffer with Deafening Roar and the Dire Wolves? If so, why not use something like Unnerving Boneyard, Weakness to Elements, Choking Talons, Thurvokun or another source of Major Breach and/or Minor Maim?

All in all, there are some trouble spots that quite honestly need fixing. I'm kinda meh about these changes. Nothing really excites me. Nothing makes me want to try another class, or playstyle. I'm a tank, so the DPS nerfs don't overly affect me too much.

You must not have run every dungeon in this game on vet most dps will die to bosses due to one shots tanks are needed for vet dungeons and trials healers mainly for trials. Dead DD is 0dps!

Kadoin · August 2019

I will still enjoy it...It's not my first nerf patch and won't be the last. However, ZOS seems to have missed the target this time. Esp. with the healing changes...

OrphanHelgen · August 2019

I dont' know what is the point with pts in this game anymore. Unless it's for free cp testing or something.

Vahrokh · August 2019

Rungar wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

most of the changes are logical.

they have figured out some of the top performance hogs is aoe so they:

1) limited popular spammable aoes ( springs, orbs, vigor)

more people will now take the single target vigor and the other morph has 2 second tics.

2) they nerfed aoe dots and buffed single target dots so more will now use the single target than the aoe dots

you all wanted performance fixes and this is how thats done.

Making op single target dots, nerfing heals (make them st, ok, but why nerf them so much?) and adding cast times is not really how you fix game performance. Sure, some changes will benefit, but why did they had to *** balance to do so? Vigor could have retained part of the strength it had in the first notes, ults could have retained their normal functionalities and not get *** in the ass. I'm pretty sure that the little performance improvements we might see wouldn't be affected at all.

i imagine their hardware is limited or not feasable to upgrade so the only real choice they have is to reduce the total calculations required. When you have hard limits everything counts. I expect more will be required.

They simply did what many game companies do: once a title is finished they fire the devs and only keep a maintenance + update crew. They guys they have today completely lack any ability to restructure the game.

Luigi_Vampa · August 2019

I'll adapt. Like always.

peacenote · August 2019

ATreeGnome wrote: »

I'm normally very optimistic about updates. I see them as imperfect steps toward a better, more balanced, and more diverse game. It's fine if the ride is bumpy as long as we're getting closer to the destination.

With this update though I am really struggling to maintain that optimism. I don't see how making healers less relevant makes the game better. I don't see how massively buffing class and weapon independent abilities will make the game more diverse.

I am looking forward to adapting and figuring out the best healing playstyles and builds with the new meta and I am excited that stamina healers will likely be viable. I don't think this is a good way to make either happen though.

I'm also worried that the healing changes will scare off new PvE healers and cripple beginner level vet trial guilds. I think these are very likely scenarios and that they are bad for the game.

I'm still trying to be optimistic but it's really damn hard.

So much this. I have voiced logical questions periodically to particular changes but I have never been holistically unhappy and concerned about the entire direction of a patch before. Ever.

This "standardization" to help with ongoing "balance" is going to nerf fun.

Jabbs_Giggity · August 2019

But why the *** would ZOS revert Puncturing Strikes back to original camera settings?!?!?!?!
It didn't work before. It won't work now! Plus it's mitigated bit a *** ton because it's going by AOE (Thaum) AND Direct DMG!!!!!

Good thing I don't pay to play

TragedyOA · August 2019

I've loss motivation to play this game. :'(

snarkomatic · August 2019

BattleAxe wrote: »

... most trials healers spammed maybe 3 abilities springs orbs and combat prayer.

No 👏 they 👏 did 👏 not 👏 ohmygod does no one have a clue what healers do except for us healers? FFS.

This is like saying all dps just spam LA and Caltrops, or all tanks just spam puncture and block. Get a clue or keep your ignorant opinions to yourselves.

Cathexis · August 2019

I'm going to say 80% of the time the changes don't actually matter.
These changes just seem proportionally extreme.

Imagine a patch like a Dragon Break.
Some Dragon Breaks will be small, or meaningless.

Others will be large, and disrupt the entire timeline of Nirn and Cyrodiil, potentially disrupting the entire physics of the Mundus.

Shantu · August 2019

I ran a Mag Templar through some dolmens and soloed a couple of dungeons on the PTS. While I had no problem completing any of it, having combat reduced to primarily slinging a handful of DOT's at enemies just felt odd...and not in an interesting or good way. While I'm not into PVP and can't speak to the affects these changes will have on that part of the game, none of these changes are going to be welcome by the vast majority of the player base that enjoys PVE combat. I play primarily Mag based DPS characters. To optimize DPS I will now be required to slot and rotate the same handful of non-class DOT's. How this is supposed to be interesting and fun is anybody's guess...but it's pretty clear that "interesting and fun" are NOT what the devs have in mind with these changes...which once again, appears to drive change for the sake of change and make no logical sense to anyone but them.

While I agree that balancing is a worthwhile objective, IMO, it should be done at a higher level across classes, and not something that is systematically applied in granular way to individual skills. The MagSorc is a good example. It didn't come close to matching DSP output of other builds, yet had pet skills that allowed medium tiered players some DPS capability that allowed them some competency at end game content. Now it's been gutted to uselessness (again, from a PVE perspective) requiring the same non-class DOT's that every other Mag class will use. Class diversity be damned. Wherever this team is going with all these changes, it doesn't feel good, and I doubt any of this will be well received.

Crown buying players will continue to drive the game's success. But players expecting combat and class diversity are likely to start looking elsewhere.

Cathexis · August 2019

Shantu wrote: »

I ran a Mag Templar through some dolmens and soloed a couple of dungeons on the PTS. While I had no problem completing any of it, having combat reduced to primarily slinging a handful of DOT's at enemies just felt odd...and not in an interesting or good way. While I'm not into PVP and can't speak to the affects these changes will have on that part of the game, none of these changes are going to be welcome by the vast majority of the player base that enjoys PVE combat. I play primarily Mag based DPS characters. To optimize DPS I will now be required to slot and rotate the same handful of non-class DOT's. How this is supposed to be interesting and fun is anybody's guess...but it's pretty clear that "interesting and fun" are NOT what the devs have in mind with these changes...which once again, appears to drive change for the sake of change and make no logical sense to anyone but them.

While I agree that balancing is a worthwhile objective, IMO, it should be done at a higher level across classes, and not something that is systematically applied in granular way to individual skills. The MagSorc is a good example. It didn't come close to matching DSP output of other builds, yet had pet skills that allowed medium tiered players some DPS capability that allowed them some competency at end game content. Now it's been gutted to uselessness (again, from a PVE perspective) requiring the same non-class DOT's that every other Mag class will use. Class diversity be damned. Wherever this team is going with all these changes, it doesn't feel good, and I doubt any of this will be well received.

Crown buying players will continue to drive the game's success. But players expecting combat and class diversity are likely to start looking elsewhere.

I'm struggling to understand how you mean by "a higher level across classes." The best use of analogy I have read is that with patches you see a "hammer and chisel" approach, where at times they use adjustments that are small, and then at times you see adjustments that are intensive. With a chisel you see fine tuned changes that polish out rough problems with the balance, with a hammer you see wide-scale change that is a gamble in causing large disruptions. The problem is that often players are looking at balance externally, with their unique perception and standpoint within a field of hindsight bias. It is easy to look down at a menu at a restaurant for example and see an extensive list of options, and decide what is good and bad, but not take the time to understand that each of these meals is "curated" in a way. There is a greater level of effort to present than what you are seeing going on. Change is an art form, it's not a light switch.

akray21 · August 2019

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

most of the changes are logical.

they have figured out some of the top performance hogs is aoe so they:

1) limited popular spammable aoes ( springs, orbs, vigor)

more people will now take the single target vigor and the other morph has 2 second tics.

2) they nerfed aoe dots and buffed single target dots so more will now use the single target than the aoe dots

you all wanted performance fixes and this is how thats done.

Why do people keep calling vigor a spammable? Spamming vigor does nothing but waste your stamina.

Because good Stam players try to keep it close to 100% uptime when in PvP battles.

What they don't want to acknowledge is how badly Stam HoTs dominated DoTs (and most damage in general) previously, so much that most Stam players never had the need for any burst heal and ran momentum in heavy instead of Rally, making it as mobile as medium. Now they can rock heavy armor but be susceptible to snares because they will need rally as DoTs slightly outpace HoTs.

You can still use a 1H/Bow in heavy and have FM for snare removal and Draining Shot for the burst heal.

ecru · August 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

most of the changes are logical.

they have figured out some of the top performance hogs is aoe so they:

1) limited popular spammable aoes ( springs, orbs, vigor)

more people will now take the single target vigor and the other morph has 2 second tics.

2) they nerfed aoe dots and buffed single target dots so more will now use the single target than the aoe dots

you all wanted performance fixes and this is how thats done.

Making op single target dots, nerfing heals (make them st, ok, but why nerf them so much?) and adding cast times is not really how you fix game performance. Sure, some changes will benefit, but why did they had to *** balance to do so? Vigor could have retained part of the strength it had in the first notes, ults could have retained their normal functionalities and not get *** in the ass. I'm pretty sure that the little performance improvements we might see wouldn't be affected at all.

i imagine their hardware is limited or not feasable to upgrade so the only real choice they have is to reduce the total calculations required. When you have hard limits everything counts. I expect more will be required.

They simply did what many game companies do: once a title is finished they fire the devs and only keep a maintenance + update crew. They guys they have today completely lack any ability to restructure the game.

The same thing happened with Rift too. By the end of the first expansion, the entire dev team had been replaced. This lead to game breaking bugs being present in the game's engine throughout it's existence which no one actually knew how to fix, and no real good direction for game design. Despite that, they still had more balanced and lag free pvp than ESO, lol.

fierackas · August 2019

Bottom line is people play the game to have fun. As soon as it's no longer fun they will stop pumping money into it and the game will die.

Cathexis · August 2019

fierackas wrote: »

Bottom line is people play the game to have fun. As soon as it's no longer fun they will stop pumping money into it and the game will die.

BlueRaven · August 2019

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

the Nerfs are ALL PVP bias with no consideration for the impact it will have on PVE, regardless of class or race

The race changes were done with only PvP in mind as well. The new lead was the Cyrodiil PvP lead, PvE is just going to get worse and worse.

darthgummibear_ESO · August 2019

katorga wrote: »

It is all about slowing the game down and making it easier for casuals.

Dots raise the floor and lower the ceiling for casual players, think of it as a 10 second cool down. Once people acclimate to the 400ms cast time to "sync with animation", my guess is that they roll it out to every instant ability to further make it easier (and kill animation cancelling which casuals hate).

With the dot meta you can even keep your dps rolling after standing in Red and waiting on a res.

The rest the patch is knee-jerk reactions to whoever is triggered on the forums.

In all fairness animation cancelling was just a bandaid to bypass a systemic problem they never found a proper way to deal with in the first place.

katorga · August 2019

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

It is all about slowing the game down and making it easier for casuals.

Dots raise the floor and lower the ceiling for casual players, think of it as a 10 second cool down. Once people acclimate to the 400ms cast time to "sync with animation", my guess is that they roll it out to every instant ability to further make it easier (and kill animation cancelling which casuals hate).

With the dot meta you can even keep your dps rolling after standing in Red and waiting on a res.

The rest the patch is knee-jerk reactions to whoever is triggered on the forums.

In all fairness animation cancelling was just a bandaid to bypass a systemic problem they never found a proper way to deal with in the first place.

Cancelling is inherent in a system that allows you to pre-empt actions with reactive abilities like dodge or block. It is not a bypass or systemic problem. It is a feature for fluid, reactive gameplay.

Micro cast times at the start of an ability don't actually stop animation cancelling. They remove its value.