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Remove Cast Time from Ultimates
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jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Go look on the tooltip of Sub Assault, see that 3s delay? That's what's giving you your one shot combo, not animation cancelling.
Educate yourselves, it isn't our job to do it for you.Edited by jcm2606 on July 14, 2019 6:23AM6 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭So at the end when it comes to mentioned stamwarden thanks to cast time on dawnbreaker he'll be actually able to time his combo of sub assault+BDoS+steel tornado spam even better now because there will be shorter gap between DBOs hit and steel tornado and sub assault will be back loaded as it always used to be.
The big difference is that today, you will get knocked down by DBoS that you can not see, and be hit by the followup sub assault/whatever while you are sitting on your ass, or in a better case during the break free animation.
After, you will be able to see the DBoS coming, and block it, not getting CC-ed, and surviving the followup as well. The only case where the combo will do more burst is when the target isn't paying attention, but that's on him.
One more time. You wont be able to react to the ultimates with the cast time because they ONLY CHANGED the fact that you cant cancel them so the damage SYNCHRONIZES with their animation as stated in the patch notes. Which means that everything else will remain the same so even if you see the animation you wont be able to react because as soon as the animation starts it takes into account what you were doing when it started. So if you weren't blocking before or as soon as the animation started you'll get the full dmg and effect regardless. Is that clear to you?
I've seen it happen to me on the live server over 500 times so please don't try to convince me that what I'm saying is not true.
Of course you've seen it happen to you on the LIVE server, because on the LIVE server the DBOS damage happens when the the ability is used, and the animation itself is just for show. Even if i do not cancel it and you can see it, when you do it is too late because the damage was already done.
On the PTS however, the DBOS damage happens when the animation finishes. This means when you see the animation start, the damage did not happen yet, and you have 400ms to react to it before you get damaged.
Do you even understand what you're reading? The patch notes specifically say "so that the damage synchronizes with the animation" so pts or not you get the damage when the ability ends anyway. If your problem is getting the damage like 200 ms faster then fine you have every right to but a cast time won't change the how the game is designed. Read my previous comment again. They only made the animation so that it can't be canceled, that means that everything else will stay as it is on live.
Live: You can cancel animation. If you do, the damage still happens.
PTS: You CAN cancel animation. If you do, the damage does not happen, and you are not charged the ultimate cost.
What does this tell you? It tells you that on live, the damage is done as soon as you press the button (therefore, you can cancel the followup animation without cancelling damage). On PTS, the damage is NOT done when you press the button, but ONLY after the animation finishes (thus, the damage is cancelled if you cancel the animation).
That is what changed. The point at which the damage happens. On live, it happens at the start of the 400ms animation. On PTS, damage happens at the end of the 400ms animation, giving the defender a chance to react to it.
You don't want to, it's fine. I'm done trying to explain it to you. Go on being for cast times and when this goes live enjoy the stiffest gameplay ever. Although I doubt you'd notice cause most of the people against animation canceling and for cast times don't play this game at a highly experienced level.
So you finally get what he/she was saying to you? This change is good since it raises the TTK of the game smart players can now actively counter the burst.Power Wealth And Influence.2 -
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭If cast times on Ultimates are going to stay, then every Ultimate in this game needs to follow the formula of Incapacitating Strike and have some sort of passive bonus tied to it for slotting it.
For instance, Stamblades get Minor Reave.. okay, fits the class and is a nice little bonus.
Dawnbreaker should retain at least a small weapon damage bonus, or perhaps an overall damage increase against Daedric targets, making it worth slotting now in Daedra-heavy situations.
Other Ultimates should also have minor passive bonuses added to them simply for slotting them, that fit the theme of the ability itself. (And CLASS if it's a class-based Ultimate.)
In lieu of that.. making the combat system clunky, or slowing down combat so it's "more friendly" for new players would be the number one way to alienate probably 75% of your playerbase to the point that they will leave.
I used to be against animation cancelling myself, simply because I was bad at it. Then I got good at it (enough for PvE, anyway), and enjoy it; it makes combat in this game fun, and really stand out.
Dumbing down this game's major features the same way WoW did will only hurt your sales.
Well said1 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭But animation cancelling was always an unintended by product in games. Saying it was unintended so it should be removed sounds dumb. Most of the games have it and will continue to have it.0 -
Nordic__Knights✭✭✭✭✭
✭I thought we already had cast times oh wait that's lag time but anyways to talk about Casttime on ults we have them already on ps4 its called lag this going to kill more mfer at the end of the day in loadscreens for being in combat telling you how to dodge roll or block something from hitting you but your dead when game comes back on lol oh off topic sorry we're talking Casttime on ults idk seems why not no one seems to like the idea or is that just lag and they might be ok with them if it was just them not them +lag +loading screen=death because inless its 4+v1 i get killed in pvp more from lag+loading screens then anything other then an animation cancelling ( broken feature of the game that development cannot fix correctly so they allow it) but ive came to understand their the same ones the exploit every broken mechanic of the game ,bash Necro,bow proc viper,ect,ECT.that has been in game over its 5years and understand they need that to fell good at something as lil as a game and call it skill ya skill of finding everything wrong with game to exploite it
So my response is this fix lag and animation cancelling then Casttime i can look at but tbh i dont thank it be needed there after after. 5 years of lag how could they be that bad tho be same game just not broken down with lag
Soloist in pvp 100% **** a groupEdited by Nordic__Knights on July 14, 2019 9:46AM0 -
Goren✭✭✭I'm in favor of cast time for ultimates. Animation canceling shouldn't be possible in pvp at least.
A new pvp campaign where animation canceling isn't possible would be very interesting!Edited by Goren on July 14, 2019 10:34AM1 -
Trian94✭✭✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »So at the end when it comes to mentioned stamwarden thanks to cast time on dawnbreaker he'll be actually able to time his combo of sub assault+BDoS+steel tornado spam even better now because there will be shorter gap between DBOs hit and steel tornado and sub assault will be back loaded as it always used to be.
The big difference is that today, you will get knocked down by DBoS that you can not see, and be hit by the followup sub assault/whatever while you are sitting on your ass, or in a better case during the break free animation.
After, you will be able to see the DBoS coming, and block it, not getting CC-ed, and surviving the followup as well. The only case where the combo will do more burst is when the target isn't paying attention, but that's on him.
One more time. You wont be able to react to the ultimates with the cast time because they ONLY CHANGED the fact that you cant cancel them so the damage SYNCHRONIZES with their animation as stated in the patch notes. Which means that everything else will remain the same so even if you see the animation you wont be able to react because as soon as the animation starts it takes into account what you were doing when it started. So if you weren't blocking before or as soon as the animation started you'll get the full dmg and effect regardless. Is that clear to you?
I've seen it happen to me on the live server over 500 times so please don't try to convince me that what I'm saying is not true.
Of course you've seen it happen to you on the LIVE server, because on the LIVE server the DBOS damage happens when the the ability is used, and the animation itself is just for show. Even if i do not cancel it and you can see it, when you do it is too late because the damage was already done.
On the PTS however, the DBOS damage happens when the animation finishes. This means when you see the animation start, the damage did not happen yet, and you have 400ms to react to it before you get damaged.
Do you even understand what you're reading? The patch notes specifically say "so that the damage synchronizes with the animation" so pts or not you get the damage when the ability ends anyway. If your problem is getting the damage like 200 ms faster then fine you have every right to but a cast time won't change the how the game is designed. Read my previous comment again. They only made the animation so that it can't be canceled, that means that everything else will stay as it is on live.
Live: You can cancel animation. If you do, the damage still happens.
PTS: You CAN cancel animation. If you do, the damage does not happen, and you are not charged the ultimate cost.
What does this tell you? It tells you that on live, the damage is done as soon as you press the button (therefore, you can cancel the followup animation without cancelling damage). On PTS, the damage is NOT done when you press the button, but ONLY after the animation finishes (thus, the damage is cancelled if you cancel the animation).
That is what changed. The point at which the damage happens. On live, it happens at the start of the 400ms animation. On PTS, damage happens at the end of the 400ms animation, giving the defender a chance to react to it.
You don't want to, it's fine. I'm done trying to explain it to you. Go on being for cast times and when this goes live enjoy the stiffest gameplay ever. Although I doubt you'd notice cause most of the people against animation canceling and for cast times don't play this game at a highly experienced level.
So you finally get what he/she was saying to you? This change is good since it raises the TTK of the game smart players can now actively counter the burst.
No, cast times are stupid it, lower the skill ceiling and won't have any of the effects that he/she claims they will. Apart from making lag worse when you cast them due to server performance.PC EU
Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So at the end when it comes to mentioned stamwarden thanks to cast time on dawnbreaker he'll be actually able to time his combo of sub assault+BDoS+steel tornado spam even better now because there will be shorter gap between DBOs hit and steel tornado and sub assault will be back loaded as it always used to be.
The big difference is that today, you will get knocked down by DBoS that you can not see, and be hit by the followup sub assault/whatever while you are sitting on your ass, or in a better case during the break free animation.
After, you will be able to see the DBoS coming, and block it, not getting CC-ed, and surviving the followup as well. The only case where the combo will do more burst is when the target isn't paying attention, but that's on him.
One more time. You wont be able to react to the ultimates with the cast time because they ONLY CHANGED the fact that you cant cancel them so the damage SYNCHRONIZES with their animation as stated in the patch notes. Which means that everything else will remain the same so even if you see the animation you wont be able to react because as soon as the animation starts it takes into account what you were doing when it started. So if you weren't blocking before or as soon as the animation started you'll get the full dmg and effect regardless. Is that clear to you?
I've seen it happen to me on the live server over 500 times so please don't try to convince me that what I'm saying is not true.
Of course you've seen it happen to you on the LIVE server, because on the LIVE server the DBOS damage happens when the the ability is used, and the animation itself is just for show. Even if i do not cancel it and you can see it, when you do it is too late because the damage was already done.
On the PTS however, the DBOS damage happens when the animation finishes. This means when you see the animation start, the damage did not happen yet, and you have 400ms to react to it before you get damaged.
Do you even understand what you're reading? The patch notes specifically say "so that the damage synchronizes with the animation" so pts or not you get the damage when the ability ends anyway. If your problem is getting the damage like 200 ms faster then fine you have every right to but a cast time won't change the how the game is designed. Read my previous comment again. They only made the animation so that it can't be canceled, that means that everything else will stay as it is on live.
Live: You can cancel animation. If you do, the damage still happens.
PTS: You CAN cancel animation. If you do, the damage does not happen, and you are not charged the ultimate cost.
What does this tell you? It tells you that on live, the damage is done as soon as you press the button (therefore, you can cancel the followup animation without cancelling damage). On PTS, the damage is NOT done when you press the button, but ONLY after the animation finishes (thus, the damage is cancelled if you cancel the animation).
That is what changed. The point at which the damage happens. On live, it happens at the start of the 400ms animation. On PTS, damage happens at the end of the 400ms animation, giving the defender a chance to react to it.
You don't want to or can't understand, it's fine.
There is truth in the both side.
400ms may be not enough to press a skill or a block/dodge in reaction.
I didn't tried it yet.
Is there people who actively tried to react in fight VS the new cast time on ultimates?
- is the time enough to see and counter the ultimate? (I mean you see the animation Then you react, dodging or blocking for an anticipation aka before the the animation started is not "reacting to the cast time".
If the cast time is not enough, then there is no reason to introduce a cast time, it's just annoying and troubling the combat flow.
Human reaction time is ~215ms(see the screenshot i posted in post #45 of this thread). That means a player should be able to react to a 400ms cast time ability, even accounting for some lag.
There is differents way to measure reactions times.
There is the time to see the stimulus get in your brain (afferent pathway) then the control center (aka brain) take the decision to finally send answen via the efferent pathway (clicking on block/dodge)
Is 215ms is from the stimulus to produce the click answer or to see the stimulus then clicking answer?
Check the screenshot. It has an URL to the test in it, you can see for yourself.
What you are presenting is the reaction time to a visual stimulus. Waiting in front of the screen to change color and click is not the same as reacting to a surprise situation by performing a necessary action.
Take a car incident for example. If your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is 200ms then there would be basically no need to keep distance from the car in front of you as you would both basically hit breaks at the same time. But you dont. Because your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is not actually 200ms but a lot longer than that which is why you should always keep some distance from the car in front of you. And that is when we are talking about breaks which is the common reaction. If we are talking about reacting with something that isnt actually common and requires a process of thinking then its even longer.
So yes if you see the circle of sub in ur opponents feet or hear it then you can block the dawnbreaker. But thats not neccessarily because you now have that .4s time to react. Its because you know its coming and you will deal with it, with a proactive defense/block before hand which is exactly what people do now. It doesnt change much in this situation.
But if you are telling me now that people will react to random surprise ults with the corresponding action while they are dealing with all sorts of other things because they now have less than half a second to react then no, chances are that its not gonna happen cause its not enough time. The main defense is still the same. Read the fight to anticipate what is going to happen.Edited by pieratsos on July 14, 2019 12:48PM3 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭this is from one of the other spammed threads about this subject, but it's well worth noting here as well.
because it is proof.leepalmer95 wrote: »
Really?!
Here we have HA-->Sub Assault --->DoS all in the same second
Here we have a Cutting Dive ---->Heavy Attack ----> Sub Assault all in the same second followed by a DoS one second later. Poor game play design and BS.
Here we have a lethal arrow ----> Draining Shot all in the same second.
Here's an interesting one. An Ambush ----> Lethal Arrow. In the same second. Now how did he get an ambush off with a skill that actually requires a 1s channel cast time all in the same second. Not sure.
Here we have Dizzying Swing ---->Reverse Slice --->Sub Assault all in the same second.
And my personal favorite. Two focused aims in the same second.
Of course your just going to tell me its lag, dsynch or some other BS excuse. Fact remains it's poor code and they need to fix it by adding slight cast times. Looks like they are starting with Ultimates. These photos were taken in the last several months. I've since replaced my hard drive so I cant count how many photos over the years I had with BS like this. Mostly, DB, Poison Injection, Lethal Arrow, Sub Assault, DizzySwing, Incap Strike, Reverse Slice, and Killers blade all being the worst offenders for hitting in the same seconds.
thats is Absolutely the very Best evidence i have ever seen in the past 6 years.
your Awesome LegacyDM.
wish we had this years ago, but this works.
most of them will ignore this and pass it off because they will never be able to admit its an exploit, and instead do all they can constantly to think its "skill"
when there is no skill at all involved in these exploits.
And nothing will actually change with these pictures because its still burst utilizing back loaded abilities/ travel time abilities. Of course all that doesnt matter to you cause those are too complex for you to understand cause quite frankly you suck and nothing they will do to this will help you in any way. You will still suck. Anw go back to snipe spamming now.Edited by pieratsos on July 14, 2019 12:38PM4 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »this is from one of the other spammed threads about this subject, but it's well worth noting here as well.
because it is proof.leepalmer95 wrote: »
Really?!
Here we have HA-->Sub Assault --->DoS all in the same second
Here we have a Cutting Dive ---->Heavy Attack ----> Sub Assault all in the same second followed by a DoS one second later. Poor game play design and BS.
Here we have a lethal arrow ----> Draining Shot all in the same second.
Here's an interesting one. An Ambush ----> Lethal Arrow. In the same second. Now how did he get an ambush off with a skill that actually requires a 1s channel cast time all in the same second. Not sure.
Here we have Dizzying Swing ---->Reverse Slice --->Sub Assault all in the same second.
And my personal favorite. Two focused aims in the same second.
Of course your just going to tell me its lag, dsynch or some other BS excuse. Fact remains it's poor code and they need to fix it by adding slight cast times. Looks like they are starting with Ultimates. These photos were taken in the last several months. I've since replaced my hard drive so I cant count how many photos over the years I had with BS like this. Mostly, DB, Poison Injection, Lethal Arrow, Sub Assault, DizzySwing, Incap Strike, Reverse Slice, and Killers blade all being the worst offenders for hitting in the same seconds.
thats is Absolutely the very Best evidence i have ever seen in the past 6 years.
your Awesome LegacyDM.
wish we had this years ago, but this works.
most of them will ignore this and pass it off because they will never be able to admit its an exploit, and instead do all they can constantly to think its "skill"
when there is no skill at all involved in these exploits.
"But but, global cooldowns bro"
"It takes skill to animation cancel bro"
"Those were bad players bro L2P GETGUD Scrub"
"Muh fast paced combat bro"
Do you even know how animation cancelling works and what backloaded burst means. You are playing stamden and you dont even know how sub works?0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Take a car incident for example. If your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is 200ms then there would be basically no need to keep distance from the car in front of you as you would both basically hit breaks at the same time. But you dont. Because your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is not actually 200ms but a lot longer than that which is why you should always keep some distance from the car in front of you. And that is when we are talking about breaks which is the common reaction. If we are talking about reacting with something that isnt actually common and requires a process of thinking then its even longer.
I dare say that getting hit by a dawnbreaker when fighting a stam build is about as uncommon and surprising as sun coming up in the morning.4 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I believe there are just as many, if not more, "WEs" that want to keep animation canceling. ZOS has said it's part of the game (I'm not going to look it up, but they have). There is even a loading screen tip about it.
This is the problem here.
idea 1:
Animations need to be able to be stopped and not lock you into something so you can block, dodge, move or whatever else you need to do in active combat.
idea 2:
Animations need to not be relevant to the skill and only add visual flair.
idea 3:
Skill damage should carry through after an animation is cancelled, if its given enough time to "register", even if that visual is not able to be seen.
If you are arguing against idea 1, you need to play a different game because that is required for this game to function as it was intended.
Idea 2 and 3 are what you are fighting about, the mlgpro players want the animations to be 0 and have no counterplay other than prediction. The super casual 1 hour a week player wants full animations with neon signs that a big hit is coming like pve gives you.
Most of us just want #1 to stay, #3 to go and #2 to be worked on.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.3 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Take a car incident for example. If your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is 200ms then there would be basically no need to keep distance from the car in front of you as you would both basically hit breaks at the same time. But you dont. Because your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is not actually 200ms but a lot longer than that which is why you should always keep some distance from the car in front of you. And that is when we are talking about breaks which is the common reaction. If we are talking about reacting with something that isnt actually common and requires a process of thinking then its even longer.
I dare say that getting hit by a dawnbreaker when fighting a stam build is about as uncommon and surprising as sun coming up in the morning.
And you completely missed the point. Picked a specific sentence from the entire quote. Took it out of context and posted something just for the sake of posting instead of actually addressing the topic.
Look if you are going to answer then at least address the points made. Otherwise just dont bother answering at all.Edited by pieratsos on July 14, 2019 1:19PM1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Take a car incident for example. If your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is 200ms then there would be basically no need to keep distance from the car in front of you as you would both basically hit breaks at the same time. But you dont. Because your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is not actually 200ms but a lot longer than that which is why you should always keep some distance from the car in front of you. And that is when we are talking about breaks which is the common reaction. If we are talking about reacting with something that isnt actually common and requires a process of thinking then its even longer.
I dare say that getting hit by a dawnbreaker when fighting a stam build is about as uncommon and surprising as sun coming up in the morning.
And you completely missed the point. Picked a specific sentence from the entire quote. Took it out of context and posted something just for the sake of posting instead of actually addressing the topic.
Look if you are going to answer then at least address the points made. Otherwise just dont bother answering at all.
I addressed the main point perfectly. You said the test is not relevant, because it measures your reaction time to an event you expect to happen any second now. I say it is relevant, because that's exactly whats happening when i am fighting a stam build. I expect a DBoS any second now.Edited by Sharee on July 14, 2019 2:16PM2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Take a car incident for example. If your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is 200ms then there would be basically no need to keep distance from the car in front of you as you would both basically hit breaks at the same time. But you dont. Because your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is not actually 200ms but a lot longer than that which is why you should always keep some distance from the car in front of you. And that is when we are talking about breaks which is the common reaction. If we are talking about reacting with something that isnt actually common and requires a process of thinking then its even longer.
I dare say that getting hit by a dawnbreaker when fighting a stam build is about as uncommon and surprising as sun coming up in the morning.
And you completely missed the point. Picked a specific sentence from the entire quote. Took it out of context and posted something just for the sake of posting instead of actually addressing the topic.
Look if you are going to answer then at least address the points made. Otherwise just dont bother answering at all.
I addressed the main point perfectly. You said the test is not relevant, because it measures your reaction time to an event you expect to happen any second now. I say it is relevant, because that's exactly whats happening when i am fighting a stam build. I expect a DBoS any second now.
Not exactly but to put it casually yes its sort of not relevant because it measures your reaction time to an expected event. Which is why the change is pointless cause if the defence you utilize is anticipation then nothing changes. Which is the point you dont get. More details below.
The bolded statement you quoted was completely irrelevant with what you said. The bolded statement refers to the common reaction of hitting brakes in a car incident which helps to decrease the reaction time but its still longer than 0.2s. Its still a surprise event. Knowing a dawnbreaker is coming is not a surprise event.
Now you did say that fighting stam builds you expect a dawnbreaker at any second. Exactly, bingo. That is the whole point i made in my concluding paragraph. The defence you are utilizing is reading the fight and aticipating what is going to happen to take the necessary action. Which is exactly what happens now. You will not block the dawnbreaker because that .4s is enough reaction time to take a necessary action in a surprise event. You block the dawnbreaker because you aniticipated it. You knew it was coming. If you did not knew it was coming and it was a surprise event which also required a process of thinking before taking the necessary action then its extremely unlikely that .4s is enough time to react which is where the real life scenario from car incidents comes in. In a surprise event of having to hit breaks you will not hit breakes in 0.2 or 0.4 seconds. Its not enough time even tho hitting breaks is the most common and instinctive reaction that doesnt require you to think. Its simply much longer than 0.2 and 0.4 seconds which is why you need to keep your distance from the car in front so you actually have enough time to hit the breaks before you crash.
Same applies for all sorts of combos in this game. The main defence that good players utilize to react to different situations is anticipating what is going to happen before it happens. Not waiting to see what happens to react to it. This doesnt change.
So to wrap up. If the target of this change is to give people time to react and perform the necessary action at any given moment, in any situation, to any ability by watching the animation and reacting then the change is 100% off target. 0.4s is not enough time to react. Main defence to react remains the anticipation of what is going to happen by reading the fight.
And the worst part is that we havent even touched on the part of the actual animations of all those abilities. To actually be able to react instinctively right when the animation starts you actually have to know step by step with detail every single animation of those skills. You generally know their whole animation but half of those animations start with a similar or general pattern, lift your hand in the air or put them down, draw ur weapon back etc. The animation would probably be half way complete before you even realise what it is, let alone actually reacting to it. So that 0.4 seconds is not even actually 0.4 seconds.Edited by pieratsos on July 14, 2019 2:52PM3 -
ScruffyWhiskers✭✭✭✭✭I was playing Kalwhatever NA PC yesterday. There were some periods of lag as usual mostly primetime. Some were modest, some extreme like when Chal was getting double teamed with a scroll there. My soul harvest would occasionally not go off and channeled acceleration which has a cast time took a comically long time to fire. I cannot imagine what it is going to be like if you go ahead with the cast times on these ultimates. But if they are hell bent on doing this then shields need a cast time as well. There are lots of skills that should get cast times if you want to "standardize" the mechanics. You will destroy what is basically the best combat system in any of the current MMO games so I would counsel against it.
0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Now you did say that fighting stam builds you expect a dawnbreaker at any second. Exactly, bingo. That is the whole point i made in my concluding paragraph. The defence you are utilizing is reading the fight and aticipating what is going to happen to take the necessary action. Which is exactly what happens now. You will not block the dawnbreaker because that .4s is enough reaction time to take a necessary action in a surprise event. You block the dawnbreaker because you aniticipated it. You knew it was coming. If you did not knew it was coming and it was a surprise event which also required a process of thinking before taking the necessary action then its extremely unlikely that .4s is enough time to react which is where the real life scenario from car incidents comes in.
You present only two situations: you predict when exactly the DB will hit, and thus do not need to see the animation.
Or you do not, and it is a suprise event and thus you will not be able to react in time.
This is wrong. There is also a third situation: you know DB will be used any time now, but do not know the exact moment. In this case, you need to see the animation, and if you do, you will be able to block in time. This is NOT a surprise event, and is exactly the situation that is simulated by the reaction test.
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Trian94✭✭✭✭Take a car incident for example. If your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is 200ms then there would be basically no need to keep distance from the car in front of you as you would both basically hit breaks at the same time. But you dont. Because your reaction time to hit breaks in a surprise situation is not actually 200ms but a lot longer than that which is why you should always keep some distance from the car in front of you. And that is when we are talking about breaks which is the common reaction. If we are talking about reacting with something that isnt actually common and requires a process of thinking then its even longer.
I dare say that getting hit by a dawnbreaker when fighting a stam build is about as uncommon and surprising as sun coming up in the morning.
And you completely missed the point. Picked a specific sentence from the entire quote. Took it out of context and posted something just for the sake of posting instead of actually addressing the topic.
Look if you are going to answer then at least address the points made. Otherwise just dont bother answering at all.
I addressed the main point perfectly. You said the test is not relevant, because it measures your reaction time to an event you expect to happen any second now. I say it is relevant, because that's exactly whats happening when i am fighting a stam build. I expect a DBoS any second now.
Not exactly but to put it casually yes its sort of not relevant because it measures your reaction time to an expected event. Which is why the change is pointless cause if the defence you utilize is anticipation then nothing changes. Which is the point you dont get. More details below.
The bolded statement you quoted was completely irrelevant with what you said. The bolded statement refers to the common reaction of hitting brakes in a car incident which helps to decrease the reaction time but its still longer than 0.2s. Its still a surprise event. Knowing a dawnbreaker is coming is not a surprise event.
Now you did say that fighting stam builds you expect a dawnbreaker at any second. Exactly, bingo. That is the whole point i made in my concluding paragraph. The defence you are utilizing is reading the fight and aticipating what is going to happen to take the necessary action. Which is exactly what happens now. You will not block the dawnbreaker because that .4s is enough reaction time to take a necessary action in a surprise event. You block the dawnbreaker because you aniticipated it. You knew it was coming. If you did not knew it was coming and it was a surprise event which also required a process of thinking before taking the necessary action then its extremely unlikely that .4s is enough time to react which is where the real life scenario from car incidents comes in. In a surprise event of having to hit breaks you will not hit breakes in 0.2 or 0.4 seconds. Its not enough time even tho hitting breaks is the most common and instinctive reaction that doesnt require you to think. Its simply much longer than 0.2 and 0.4 seconds which is why you need to keep your distance from the car in front so you actually have enough time to hit the breaks before you crash.
Same applies for all sorts of combos in this game. The main defence that good players utilize to react to different situations is anticipating what is going to happen before it happens. Not waiting to see what happens to react to it. This doesnt change.
So to wrap up. If the target of this change is to give people time to react and perform the necessary action at any given moment, in any situation, to any ability by watching the animation and reacting then the change is 100% off target. 0.4s is not enough time to react. Main defence to react remains the anticipation of what is going to happen by reading the fight.
And the worst part is that we havent even touched on the part of the actual animations of all those abilities. To actually be able to react instinctively right when the animation starts you actually have to know step by step with detail every single animation of those skills. You generally know their whole animation but half of those animations start with a similar or general pattern, lift your hand in the air or put them down, draw ur weapon back etc. The animation would probably be half way complete before you even realise what it is, let alone actually reacting to it. So that 0.4 seconds is not even actually 0.4 seconds.
There's no point arguing with these people, they think that they will actually be able to see and react to ultimates in time, if the cast times go through, the way the game is designed (and through its performance in prime time). Good luck to themPC EU
Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn1 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Can’t wait to see people complaining that they’re getting fooled into dodge rolling ults that get canceled
Enjoy getting played3 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Now you did say that fighting stam builds you expect a dawnbreaker at any second. Exactly, bingo. That is the whole point i made in my concluding paragraph. The defence you are utilizing is reading the fight and aticipating what is going to happen to take the necessary action. Which is exactly what happens now. You will not block the dawnbreaker because that .4s is enough reaction time to take a necessary action in a surprise event. You block the dawnbreaker because you aniticipated it. You knew it was coming. If you did not knew it was coming and it was a surprise event which also required a process of thinking before taking the necessary action then its extremely unlikely that .4s is enough time to react which is where the real life scenario from car incidents comes in.
You present only two situations: you predict when exactly the DB will hit, and thus do not need to see the animation.
Or you do not, and it is a suprise event and thus you will not be able to react in time.
This is wrong. There is also a third situation: you know DB will be used any time now, but do not know the exact moment. In this case, you need to see the animation, and if you do, you will be able to block in time. This is NOT a surprise event, and is exactly the situation that is simulated by the reaction test.
Knowing a DB is coming at any moment is sort of simulating a visual stimulus reaction but its not a surprise event. You know its coming. And yes in that case you could probably have enough time to react although its still debatable cause you may be doing something else and again there is the concept of the actual animation i mentioned before meaning, the animation of dawnbreaker may be half way over before you realise that its actually a dawnbreaker. So even in the absolute best case scenario its still debatable of whether .4 seconds is enough. But again, in that scenario you are pointing out, the main defence you utilize is predicting ur opponent's move and anticipating what is going to happen. Which is exactly what happens now. If you see sub in ur opponents feet you prepare, put a shield up, block etc. You do not risk blocking after you see the animation hoping you have enough time to block.
My point is that the game is not designed for reacting after you see a specific action. The game is designed around predicting your opponent's moves and acting accordingly. Its why there are sources of proactive defence and its why self heals are in abundance to help you recover. Thats just simply how the combat of this game is designed. So again, if the goal of this change is to give people time to react after they see an animation then the change is 100% off target. It wont do that and the game is simply not designed to work like that.Edited by pieratsos on July 14, 2019 8:40PM3 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭
you might not like it and that's fine. however, we have cast time abilities in the game already, in lag/prim time said abilities can take a full minute to go off or you can get stuck in the animation and your character will be locked...... yeah, no that's not gonna work. i prefer what we have thanks.Edited by Lucky28 on July 15, 2019 12:17AMInvictus0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭
you might not like it and that's fine. however, we have cast time abilities in the game already, in lag/prim time said abilities can take a full minute to go off or you can get stuck in the animation and your character will be locked...... yeah, no that's not gonna work. i prefer what we have thanks.
This argument keeps being parroted as a legitimate argument. Lets say the devs fix the server lag and response times what is your argument now?Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My point is that the game is not designed for reacting after you see a specific action. The game is designed around predicting your opponent's moves and acting accordingly.
If the game was not designed for reacting after you see a visual stimulus, it would not have so many telegraphs for abilities.
Necromancer
Grave Lord
Frozen Colossus: Fixed an issue where this ability and its morphs had a 1-second delay before they displayed a hostile telegraph to enemy players. It will now display a hostile circle telegraph in the area the colossus is going to smash, the moment the ability is cast.
Edited by Sharee on July 15, 2019 6:20AM2 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »
you might not like it and that's fine. however, we have cast time abilities in the game already, in lag/prim time said abilities can take a full minute to go off or you can get stuck in the animation and your character will be locked...... yeah, no that's not gonna work. i prefer what we have thanks.
This argument keeps being parroted as a legitimate argument. Lets say the devs fix the server lag and response times what is your argument now?
Implying they'll ever do that, which is the problem. If they knew how to fix server lag and response times, they would. But they don't. So assuming that they would, or even could, is completely irrelevant, because they simply don't know how to.
To answer your question, though, targeting. The targeting system, combined with the fast pace of combat and the active/reactive nature of combat, just doesn't handle targeted skills with a cast time well at all. All it takes is your target moving a little too far off to one side, a little too close or a little too far away from you, or even just moving directly next to you, and the skill cancels itself.
This happens with any melee skills, due to the limited range, but cast time skills are especially problematic, as you're not just having to compensate for this at a particular instant in the cast, but in all instants over the cast. To truly make something like Dizzy Swing reliable to cast, targeting needs to be reworked such that even moving slightly out of range or slightly too far off to one side doesn't completely cancel it. Ideally, targeting should be reworked for all melee skills, not just Dizzy Swing.2 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »
you might not like it and that's fine. however, we have cast time abilities in the game already, in lag/prim time said abilities can take a full minute to go off or you can get stuck in the animation and your character will be locked...... yeah, no that's not gonna work. i prefer what we have thanks.
This argument keeps being parroted as a legitimate argument. Lets say the devs fix the server lag and response times what is your argument now?
Implying they'll ever do that, which is the problem. If they knew how to fix server lag and response times, they would. But they don't. So assuming that they would, or even could, is completely irrelevant, because they simply don't know how to.
To answer your question, though, targeting. The targeting system, combined with the fast pace of combat and the active/reactive nature of combat, just doesn't handle targeted skills with a cast time well at all. All it takes is your target moving a little too far off to one side, a little too close or a little too far away from you, or even just moving directly next to you, and the skill cancels itself.
This happens with any melee skills, due to the limited range, but cast time skills are especially problematic, as you're not just having to compensate for this at a particular instant in the cast, but in all instants over the cast. To truly make something like Dizzy Swing reliable to cast, targeting needs to be reworked such that even moving slightly out of range or slightly too far off to one side doesn't completely cancel it. Ideally, targeting should be reworked for all melee skills, not just Dizzy Swing.
Definitely agree on last paragraphEdited by Anti_Virus on July 15, 2019 6:28AMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭The sky is falling! The sky is falling! O my gosh a .4 second ruins my gameplay! Get over yourself, people. It’s not that bad. I just tested soul harvest on pts and there is literally barely any noticeable difference. Sorry you dawn breaker ninnies are throwing a tantrum cause it’s harder to insta chain burst attacks while running your bunny hoping premade high health OP groups around towers dumping timed ults. O the horror!Edited by LegacyDM on July 15, 2019 7:52AMLegacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South1
