Remove Cast Time from Ultimates

Davadin

Xogath wrote: »

If cast times on Ultimates are going to stay, then every Ultimate in this game needs to follow the formula of Incapacitating Strike and have some sort of passive bonus tied to it for slotting it.

For instance, Stamblades get Minor Reave.. okay, fits the class and is a nice little bonus.

Dawnbreaker should retain at least a small weapon damage bonus, or perhaps an overall damage increase against Daedric targets, making it worth slotting now in Daedra-heavy situations.

Other Ultimates should also have minor passive bonuses added to them simply for slotting them, that fit the theme of the ability itself. (And CLASS if it's a class-based Ultimate.)

In lieu of that.. making the combat system clunky, or slowing down combat so it's "more friendly" for new players would be the number one way to alienate probably 75% of your playerbase to the point that they will leave.

I used to be against animation cancelling myself, simply because I was bad at it. Then I got good at it (enough for PvE, anyway), and enjoy it; it makes combat in this game fun, and really stand out.

Dumbing down this game's major features the same way WoW did will only hurt your sales.

I like the idea of adding passive bonus, and i'm pretty decent at animation cancelling, but I still feel,
1. being able to anima-cancel ultimate such as Dawnbreaker is OP.
2. they're just adding it to ultimates, not all skills, so i'd argue a lot less than 75% would leave. more like, 5% tops.

Trian94

Davadin wrote: »

Xogath wrote: »

If cast times on Ultimates are going to stay, then every Ultimate in this game needs to follow the formula of Incapacitating Strike and have some sort of passive bonus tied to it for slotting it.

For instance, Stamblades get Minor Reave.. okay, fits the class and is a nice little bonus.

Dawnbreaker should retain at least a small weapon damage bonus, or perhaps an overall damage increase against Daedric targets, making it worth slotting now in Daedra-heavy situations.

Other Ultimates should also have minor passive bonuses added to them simply for slotting them, that fit the theme of the ability itself. (And CLASS if it's a class-based Ultimate.)

In lieu of that.. making the combat system clunky, or slowing down combat so it's "more friendly" for new players would be the number one way to alienate probably 75% of your playerbase to the point that they will leave.

I used to be against animation cancelling myself, simply because I was bad at it. Then I got good at it (enough for PvE, anyway), and enjoy it; it makes combat in this game fun, and really stand out.

Dumbing down this game's major features the same way WoW did will only hurt your sales.

I like the idea of adding passive bonus, and i'm pretty decent at animation cancelling, but I still feel,
1. being able to anima-cancel ultimate such as Dawnbreaker is OP.
2. they're just adding it to ultimates, not all skills, so i'd argue a lot less than 75% would leave. more like, 5% tops.

There are more powerful combos than animation cancelling ultimates in this game, which doesn't make sense for only some of the ultimates to get a cast time, let alone all of them

Anti_Virus

Gnozo wrote: »

Combat feels really clunky with the cast time now. Please remove

Ppl continue to parrot this phase please stop and think about what you are saying.

Anti_Virus

lookstwice wrote: »

Wow I really thought that most people would be on the same page and not want a cast times on ultimates.

You thought wrong buddy and for all you L33T pvpers that want this reverted please go play a fighting/ fps game where you can button mash and animation cancel to your hearts content on N00B5.

This is fantasy combat not an fps TTK should not be this low.

Anti_Virus

MincVinyl wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

I just spent an hour in PTS.

OK, so I didn't try CP PvP.

but AFAIK, I don't think 400-500ms really makes a difference.

My Berserker/Onslaught and DBS feels just as natural. Maybe because I don't really do animation cancelling on ulti?

where and how are you guys testing this to say it's now really awkward etc.?

go on live and try doing a dizzy>db>block
then go on pts and try the same thing

if you look at time stamps you will lose about a second and a half in your rotation due to the db now acting like a clunky dizzy swing. Not only will this make it as simple to counter as dizzy swing, but any 5 second buffs that you got before your rotation are almost guaranteed to be over by the time your going into execute rotations

It is sad, but the recent patches are really pushing players to just run dots anyways so skill and this cast time wont really matter too much for most people

So in other words you won’t be able to one shot ppl anymore? And this Is a problem?

Trian94

Anti_Virus wrote: »

lookstwice wrote: »

Wow I really thought that most people would be on the same page and not want a cast times on ultimates.

You thought wrong buddy and for all you L33T pvpers that want this reverted please go play a fighting/ fps game where you can button mash an animation cancel to your hearts content on N00B5.

This is fantasy combat not an fps TTK should not be this low.

Animation cancelling on fighting/fps games. L M A O

I mean no offense, but either l2p or stop pushing for/defending bad changes because you're too lazy to l2p.

thankyourat

Who even asked for the cast times. Why change something that no one was complaining about.

Aedrion

You can have a 200 ms cast time on ults when your server is flawless.

400 ms on PC EU? Get rekt, that thing'll be casting until you're old and grey.

"Wait for it... wait for it!"

"Damn it, Trian, we've been at Roebeck for the last 3 hours and the guy you're trying to DB isn't even in Cyro anymore!"

jonathanb16_ESO

Its near impossible to swap clean after an casttime ulti and it feels like as if its compleatly destroys your rotation, even on an parse dummy in raid/dungeons this will be even harder. In pvp this is going to result in many really frustating moments due to missed swaps to my SB bar.

jcm2606

Anything that makes the game intentionally less responsive is bad and should be removed/reverted. End of.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

lookstwice wrote: »

Wow I really thought that most people would be on the same page and not want a cast times on ultimates.

You thought wrong buddy and for all you L33T pvpers that want this reverted please go play a fighting/ fps game where you can button mash an animation cancel to your hearts content on N00B5.

This is fantasy combat not an fps TTK should not be this low.

Except cancelling ultimates doesn't help TTK all that much, especially so after they just nerfed bashing. It's not like cancelling your ultimate allows you to immediately follow with another skill, your skill casts still adhere to the GCD, just as if you didn't cancel your ultimate. One of two things can happen, depending on how you cancelled your ultimate.

If you block/swap cancelled, then it just cuts off the end of the animation, getting you ready for the next GCD a little quicker (but not bypassing the GCD, so it doesn't actually help TTK, really only a comfort thing), and in some cases, might cause the ultimate's effect to occur (damage, healing, etc) a tiny bit quicker, allowing you to line up burst a tiny bit better (again, doesn't help TTK all that much, we're talking fractions of a second). In the case of bar swap, it allows you to get onto your other bar a little bit quicker, but, just like cutting the end of the animation off, it just gets you ready for the next GCD a little quicker.

If you bash cancelled, TTK does drop a bit, since you have the damage from the bash happening just after the ultimate lands, but the damage is around maybe a half to a third of a regular burst skill (with the old scaling and 100% multiplier from sword and board, so it's probably even lower now), it costs a decent amount of stamina on top of your actual skills, and it can be tricky to do smoothly, depending on your keybinds. One way or another, you're paying a decent amount of resources for a bit more damage, so IMO the drop in TTK is fair.

You'd only bash cancel if you really wanted that kill, otherwise block/swap cancelling is what you'd do, if you're cancelling at all. Overall TTK isn't that much lower when cancelling ultimates, so if you want to address TTK, look elsewhere.

SkyMagpie

Cast time anything is already really annoying in PvE like when you have to cast channeled acceleration in your usual rotation so I expect it's going to be just as annoying for anyone using those ults in PvE.

I feel like there's a pattern in every thread on the forums and that's how all these changes are made for PvP so a lot of PvP players think they are godsent but every PvE player agrees this will *** us over big time

WillhelmBlack

SkyMagpie wrote: »

Cast time anything is already really annoying in PvE like when you have to cast channeled acceleration in your usual rotation so I expect it's going to be just as annoying for anyone using those ults in PvE.

I feel like there's a pattern in every thread on the forums and that's how all these changes are made for PvP so a lot of PvP players think they are godsent but every PvE player agrees this will *** us over big time

Most of the PvP player base doesn't want cast times. ESO is a real time action based mmorpg. There are PvP games out there for people who want it, they are called turn based, like Scrabble.

jcm2606

SkyMagpie wrote: »

Cast time anything is already really annoying in PvE like when you have to cast channeled acceleration in your usual rotation so I expect it's going to be just as annoying for anyone using those ults in PvE.

I feel like there's a pattern in every thread on the forums and that's how all these changes are made for PvP so a lot of PvP players think they are godsent but every PvE player agrees this will *** us over big time

Quite a few changes in this patch are hated by both the PVE and PVP crowds, including cast times on ultimates.

Crixus8000

This is a terrible change. It makes combat slower and that seems to be the opposite of how eso is designed. It also takes away skill and will just make combat feel worse and unfun.

Sharee

Crixus8000 wrote: »

This is a terrible change. It makes combat slower and that seems to be the opposite of how eso is designed.

Eso was definitely designed with all those pretty animations just so that you could cancel them.

leepalmer95

Sharee wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

This is a terrible change. It makes combat slower and that seems to be the opposite of how eso is designed.

Eso was definitely designed with all those pretty animations just so that you could cancel them.

Exactly.

What it was originally designed for doesn't matter because it that case very large scale pvp was heavily promoted and therefore with that logic they should focus on pvp.

leepalmer95

Anti_Virus wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

I just spent an hour in PTS.

OK, so I didn't try CP PvP.

but AFAIK, I don't think 400-500ms really makes a difference.

My Berserker/Onslaught and DBS feels just as natural. Maybe because I don't really do animation cancelling on ulti?

where and how are you guys testing this to say it's now really awkward etc.?

go on live and try doing a dizzy>db>block
then go on pts and try the same thing

if you look at time stamps you will lose about a second and a half in your rotation due to the db now acting like a clunky dizzy swing. Not only will this make it as simple to counter as dizzy swing, but any 5 second buffs that you got before your rotation are almost guaranteed to be over by the time your going into execute rotations

It is sad, but the recent patches are really pushing players to just run dots anyways so skill and this cast time wont really matter too much for most people

So in other words you won’t be able to one shot ppl anymore? And this Is a problem?

I mean thats not 1 shotting, you'll take the same dmg from the same rotation there just the same.

It just feels slow, clunky and horrible to use.

MehrunesFlagon

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Combat feels really clunky with the cast time now. Please remove

Ppl continue to parrot this phase please stop and think about what you are saying.

That is only because it's true.

MehrunesFlagon

Sharee wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

This is a terrible change. It makes combat slower and that seems to be the opposite of how eso is designed.

Eso was definitely designed with all those pretty animations just so that you could cancel them.

I like how incapacitating strike looks when cancelled better.

Crixus8000

Sharee wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

This is a terrible change. It makes combat slower and that seems to be the opposite of how eso is designed.

Eso was definitely designed with all those pretty animations just so that you could cancel them.

Eso has fast paced combat. Even if animation canceling wasn't initially intended, they have said that it is a part of the game now, so it makes no sense to add a cast time to ults, taking away from the speed and skill of combat and just making it feel terrible.

Hyperion616

Being new to the game, was animation canceling something the Developers of the game intended or was it more so a byproduct of a feature they were not able to rectify with out extensive work?

I've read through some of the complaints in this thread and others and from what I've read it would seem it was a feature not intended but was left in the game because the Developers were unable to fix it not sure of course if that was the case.

If that is the case and it's been left like it has for the past however many years, I guess now is as good a time to fix it as any. As for the "I quit" remarks, it's understandable for people to quit over changes to a game they like and there are plenty of options for people to choose from.

FF14
WoW, WoW Classic
Some new MMO that more than likely wont last long and end up going the way of WildStar and the others before it.
and Last but not least
Console Games.

4 choices isn't bad.

Gilvoth

Hyperion616 wrote: »

Being new to the game, was animation canceling something the Developers of the game intended or was it more so a byproduct of a feature they were not able to rectify with out extensive work?

I've read through some of the complaints in this thread and others and from what I've read it would seem it was a feature not intended but was left in the game because the Developers were unable to fix it not sure of course if that was the case.

If that is the case and it's been left like it has for the past however many years, I guess now is as good a time to fix it as any. As for the "I quit" remarks, it's understandable for people to quit over changes to a game they like and there are plenty of options for people to choose from.

FF14
WoW, WoW Classic
Some new MMO that more than likely wont last long and end up going the way of WildStar and the others before it.
and Last but not least
Console Games.

4 choices isn't bad.

it was never intended, at the time that development team decided to play it off in stead of fixing it and used it as a means for people to gain DPS.
but that team is now completely gone and there is all new workers there now, its time for it to be repaired and it sure looks like thats what they are doing.
it sure would be a Great idea to remove it and many of us are hoping and praying they are indeed starting to and taking a step in the right direction to Remove it.

Taloros

The previous combat team heavily promoting animation cancelling, esp. for light attacks, e. g. by buffing light attack damage. Now, the current team is facing a situation where high-end players deal too much damage.

There are (at least) two ways to fix that:
- Nerf/stop animation cancelling, e. g. by reducing light attack damage.
- Nerf almost all skills.

The first option would be a precision strike. But the currenty direction tries to fix a small problem by carpet bombing.

leepalmer95

Taloros wrote: »

The previous combat team heavily promoting animation cancelling, esp. for light attacks, e. g. by buffing light attack damage. Now, the current team is facing a situation where high-end players deal too much damage.

There are (at least) two ways to fix that:
- Nerf/stop animation cancelling, e. g. by reducing light attack damage.
- Nerf almost all skills.

The first option would be a precision strike. But the currenty direction tries to fix a small problem by carpet bombing.

Light attacks doesnt really have much to do with ani cancelling, not in the way people are complaining about on the pts.

Light attacks are weaved because they have a separate gcd than skills.

khajiitNPC

Adding Cast-times to certain Ults is a bad move. Anyone can learn to animation-cancel. That being said, if they do go through with it — then it needs to be applied to ALL ultimates.

I personally hate to see that the community has gotten so lazy that they can’t even learn or grasp something as simple as canceling.

necronyteub17_ESO

https://scufgaming.com/playstation-vantage-controller.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078J2HQ9D/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=uncannyx-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B078J2HQ9D&linkId=76bd5a8735eb0d38a5b158a944399d2b
Yeah get you something like these and Animation canceling that is being allowed in ESO just makes macroing SOOO easy.
When someone in pvp kills you in less then a second and you look at the battle log of how you died and what was cast on you and by WHO.
5 abilities in half a second from the same person LOL.
It wasnt skill. It was one of these devices combined with the fact that animation canceling is in this game.
Thats why these guys come here and freak out when they think animation canceling might get removed.
Put a cast time or make it so if you animation cancel then it stops the whole spell or ability from going off because well hell, YOU canceled it lol.
Watch how many whiners come out.
Cast times or removing anima canceling and POOF , their cheating macro making devices cease to help them haha.
I dont care what anyone says, because everyone has at one point or another been victim to an insta death from one of these cheaters . That is if youve even played any pvp in eso at all.

The animation canceling just enables them to be able to utilize these devices.
Even the XIM4 allows using your macro mouse or macro keyboard on your ps4 or xbox to mimic and appear as a legit console controller and macro as much as you want .

Animation cancelling helps these devices because it takes away any kind of delay between skill and abilities and strings them together without global cooldowns of any kind.
Take animation canceling out and every so called Elite player would suck at this game lol.

OR take every cast time and cooldown off of everything and level the playing field. Make macro allowed and then see how good they are.
Isn't 1 of these douch bags capable of doing 5 abilities faster then humanly possible without using one of these type of devices. Go check them out or buy one for yourself lol

Trian94

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

https://scufgaming.com/playstation-vantage-controller.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078J2HQ9D/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=uncannyx-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B078J2HQ9D&linkId=76bd5a8735eb0d38a5b158a944399d2b
Yeah get you something like these and Animation canceling that is being allowed in ESO just makes macroing SOOO easy.
When someone in pvp kills you in less then a second and you look at the battle log of how you died and what was cast on you and by WHO.
5 abilities in half a second from the same person LOL.
It wasnt skill. It was one of these devices combined with the fact that animation canceling is in this game.
Thats why these guys come here and freak out when they think animation canceling might get removed.
Put a cast time or make it so if you animation cancel then it stops the whole spell or ability from going off because well hell, YOU canceled it lol.
Watch how many whiners come out.
Cast times or removing anima canceling and POOF , their cheating macro making devices cease to help them haha.
I dont care what anyone says, because everyone has at one point or another been victim to an insta death from one of these cheaters . That is if youve even played any pvp in eso at all.

The animation canceling just enables them to be able to utilize these devices.
Even the XIM4 allows using your macro mouse or macro keyboard on your ps4 or xbox to mimic and appear as a legit console controller and macro as much as you want .

Animation cancelling helps these devices because it takes away any kind of delay between skill and abilities and strings them together without global cooldowns of any kind.
Take animation canceling out and every so called Elite player would suck at this game lol.

OR take every cast time and cooldown off of everything and level the playing field. Make macro allowed and then see how good they are.
Isn't 1 of these douch bags capable of doing 5 abilities faster then humanly possible without using one of these type of devices. Go check them out or buy one for yourself lol

Do you guys want to nerf animation canceling cause you think it makes macros easy? So like, why not have macros be detected and banned instead?

killingspreeb16_ESO

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

https://scufgaming.com/playstation-vantage-controller.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078J2HQ9D/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=uncannyx-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B078J2HQ9D&linkId=76bd5a8735eb0d38a5b158a944399d2b
Yeah get you something like these and Animation canceling that is being allowed in ESO just makes macroing SOOO easy.
When someone in pvp kills you in less then a second and you look at the battle log of how you died and what was cast on you and by WHO.
5 abilities in half a second from the same person LOL.
It wasnt skill. It was one of these devices combined with the fact that animation canceling is in this game.
Thats why these guys come here and freak out when they think animation canceling might get removed.
Put a cast time or make it so if you animation cancel then it stops the whole spell or ability from going off because well hell, YOU canceled it lol.
Watch how many whiners come out.
Cast times or removing anima canceling and POOF , their cheating macro making devices cease to help them haha.
I dont care what anyone says, because everyone has at one point or another been victim to an insta death from one of these cheaters . That is if youve even played any pvp in eso at all.

The animation canceling just enables them to be able to utilize these devices.
Even the XIM4 allows using your macro mouse or macro keyboard on your ps4 or xbox to mimic and appear as a legit console controller and macro as much as you want .

Animation cancelling helps these devices because it takes away any kind of delay between skill and abilities and strings them together without global cooldowns of any kind.
Take animation canceling out and every so called Elite player would suck at this game lol.

OR take every cast time and cooldown off of everything and level the playing field. Make macro allowed and then see how good they are.
Isn't 1 of these douch bags capable of doing 5 abilities faster then humanly possible without using one of these type of devices. Go check them out or buy one for yourself lol

Ah yes the good old cheat excuse.

heng14rwb17_ESO

OMG MY 60K DEEEPS DROP TO 40K DEEPS

Anti_Virus

jcm2606 wrote: »

Anything that makes the game intentionally less responsive is bad and should be removed/reverted. End of.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

lookstwice wrote: »

Wow I really thought that most people would be on the same page and not want a cast times on ultimates.

You thought wrong buddy and for all you L33T pvpers that want this reverted please go play a fighting/ fps game where you can button mash an animation cancel to your hearts content on N00B5.

This is fantasy combat not an fps TTK should not be this low.

Except cancelling ultimates doesn't help TTK all that much, especially so after they just nerfed bashing. It's not like cancelling your ultimate allows you to immediately follow with another skill, your skill casts still adhere to the GCD, just as if you didn't cancel your ultimate. One of two things can happen, depending on how you cancelled your ultimate.

If you block/swap cancelled, then it just cuts off the end of the animation, getting you ready for the next GCD a little quicker (but not bypassing the GCD, so it doesn't actually help TTK, really only a comfort thing), and in some cases, might cause the ultimate's effect to occur (damage, healing, etc) a tiny bit quicker, allowing you to line up burst a tiny bit better (again, doesn't help TTK all that much, we're talking fractions of a second). In the case of bar swap, it allows you to get onto your other bar a little bit quicker, but, just like cutting the end of the animation off, it just gets you ready for the next GCD a little quicker.

If you bash cancelled, TTK does drop a bit, since you have the damage from the bash happening just after the ultimate lands, but the damage is around maybe a half to a third of a regular burst skill (with the old scaling and 100% multiplier from sword and board, so it's probably even lower now), it costs a decent amount of stamina on top of your actual skills, and it can be tricky to do smoothly, depending on your keybinds. One way or another, you're paying a decent amount of resources for a bit more damage, so IMO the drop in TTK is fair.

You'd only bash cancel if you really wanted that kill, otherwise block/swap cancelling is what you'd do, if you're cancelling at all. Overall TTK isn't that much lower when cancelling ultimates, so if you want to address TTK, look elsewhere.

Healing and damage mitigation in this game is too high, but it has to be because of TTK being too low. If we continue trying to solve to TTK issue then everyone will be a tank or die in one hit literally.


It’s funny how people think animation canceling is somehow skillfull. I do it all the time on my stamwarden shalks dawnbreaker bash spin to win and kill 5-7 ppl at a time instantly.

What the devs fixed was syncing the animation with the damage, previously for all ultimates like dawnbreaker you press it and block and the damage would apply before the animation completed. Which was fun to instantly kill ppl, and block canceling was beneficial since the animation was longer than the global cooldown but it was unhealthy for the game.

This change will be fine imo.