The P2W elephant in the room.

cheifsoap · July 2019

ArenGesus wrote: »

Honest question here, not trying to troll - do people actually care about <50 BGs? You level up so fast that it's inherently meaningless that you're weak or strong compared to others. Does it really matter if you're competitive during this time? I get that it's no fun being slaughtered (BGs aren't my thing, so that's basically what happens to me), but it still is a very temporary condition.

Probably. Twinking has been a thing in MMORPGs since its inception - there's something about feeling powerful that people enjoy.

yodased · July 2019

code65536 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

The fact of the matter remains: There are a lot of "old" players who play sub-50 PvP.

They'll roll a new character, play in sub-50 PvP until they reach 50, then roll a new one and repeat the process.

Why do they do this? Because many like how sub-50 is balanced. The gear sets and skills that you face against are more limited.

I can understand their point of view because I personally have a lot more fun in sub-50 BGs than I do in vet BGs. I don't go through the trouble of rolling new characters specifically for this, but I do try to limit the amount of leveling that I do in PvE so that I get to enjoy this sub-50 experience longer.

But here's the key point: As you try to acquire and level those skill lines that grant you power, you are leveling the character. The tradeoff has always been that if you tried to acquire more power against your opponents in sub-50, you will end up spending less time in sub-50.

Buying skill lines means that people with the money to spend can now bypass that tradeoff.

The second consideration is battle-leveling. Battle-leveling is stronger in lower lowbies. That is to say, a level 10 battle-leveled to 50/C160 has better stats than a level 40 battle-leveled to 50/C160. This is to compensate for the fact that a level 10 has a more limited range of skills and abilities available to them. Again, being able to buy skill lines upsets this balancing consideration.

The simple thing to do is to allow the purchase of these things only on level 50 characters. You want a shortcut to leveling? Sure, that's fine. Just wait till you are level 50.

I'm not arguing against your suggestion because I think it's fine, but I believe people are underestimating how expensive it will be to buy a fully-leveled new character. It's really hard for me to imagine this being something done frequently even if you can purchase the skills right out of the gate. And to do it repeatedly just to dominate <50 BGs... I think you'd need a pretty fat wallet to keep your hobby up.

I would never do such a thing. You evidently wouldn't do such a thing. And I think most people wouldn't. But all it takes is for one person to do it to negatively impact the experience of everyone else that they fight against.

So are there people who would do this? I'm sure there will be. If there are people who spend $1000 on Crates to chase after a Radiant Apex mount, I'm sure there will be people who will spend 1/10 of that to feel like a god in PvP.

But people seem to be ignoring the fact that what's being bought with these changes can be done right now for free and still ruin the same content. People already gold out lowbie gear, grind these skill lines up to get the best skills from them, and do all that while staying under level 50.

Yes, twinking is already a thing. But this exacerbates the problem, don't you see? Just because the problem already exists to an extent doesn't mean it should be fine to make it worse.

And nobody is going to get Dawnbreaker at level 10 right now, since getting Dawnbreaker requires killing enemies, and that grants XP. A level 10 with Dawnbreaker is more disruptive than a level 30 with Dawnbreaker because of the stronger scaling of Battle Leveling for the level 10.

Again, all that's needed is a level 50 restriction. If people want this convenience for to get a character up to speed for vet content, this restriction would have no effect on them whatsoever.

Again this is not a true statement. You can get dawnbreaker at level 3.

cheifsoap · July 2019

code65536 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

The fact of the matter remains: There are a lot of "old" players who play sub-50 PvP.

They'll roll a new character, play in sub-50 PvP until they reach 50, then roll a new one and repeat the process.

Why do they do this? Because many like how sub-50 is balanced. The gear sets and skills that you face against are more limited.

I can understand their point of view because I personally have a lot more fun in sub-50 BGs than I do in vet BGs. I don't go through the trouble of rolling new characters specifically for this, but I do try to limit the amount of leveling that I do in PvE so that I get to enjoy this sub-50 experience longer.

But here's the key point: As you try to acquire and level those skill lines that grant you power, you are leveling the character. The tradeoff has always been that if you tried to acquire more power against your opponents in sub-50, you will end up spending less time in sub-50.

Buying skill lines means that people with the money to spend can now bypass that tradeoff.

The second consideration is battle-leveling. Battle-leveling is stronger in lower lowbies. That is to say, a level 10 battle-leveled to 50/C160 has better stats than a level 40 battle-leveled to 50/C160. This is to compensate for the fact that a level 10 has a more limited range of skills and abilities available to them. Again, being able to buy skill lines upsets this balancing consideration.

The simple thing to do is to allow the purchase of these things only on level 50 characters. You want a shortcut to leveling? Sure, that's fine. Just wait till you are level 50.

I'm not arguing against your suggestion because I think it's fine, but I believe people are underestimating how expensive it will be to buy a fully-leveled new character. It's really hard for me to imagine this being something done frequently even if you can purchase the skills right out of the gate. And to do it repeatedly just to dominate <50 BGs... I think you'd need a pretty fat wallet to keep your hobby up.

I would never do such a thing. You evidently wouldn't do such a thing. And I think most people wouldn't. But all it takes is for one person to do it to negatively impact the experience of everyone else that they fight against.

So are there people who would do this? I'm sure there will be. If there are people who spend $1000 on Crates to chase after a Radiant Apex mount, I'm sure there will be people who will spend 1/10 of that to feel like a god in PvP.

But people seem to be ignoring the fact that what's being bought with these changes can be done right now for free and still ruin the same content. People already gold out lowbie gear, grind these skill lines up to get the best skills from them, and do all that while staying under level 50.

Yes, twinking is already a thing. But this exacerbates the problem, don't you see? Just because the problem already exists to an extent doesn't mean it should be fine to make it worse.

And nobody is going to get Dawnbreaker at level 10 right now, since getting Dawnbreaker requires killing enemies, and that grants XP. A level 10 with Dawnbreaker is more disruptive than a level 30 with Dawnbreaker because of the stronger scaling of Battle Leveling for the level 10.

Again, all that's needed is a level 50 restriction. If people want this convenience for to get a character up to speed for vet content, this restriction would have no effect on them whatsoever.

You're making awful broad strokes with your replies. Just because you don't like twinking doesn't mean hundreds or thousands of other people don't. Why should they sacrifice their enjoyment for you?

People are getting Dawnbreaker by level 10, i literally just described a method of doing it a few posts up.

ArenGesus · July 2019

cheifsoap wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Honest question here, not trying to troll - do people actually care about <50 BGs? You level up so fast that it's inherently meaningless that you're weak or strong compared to others. Does it really matter if you're competitive during this time? I get that it's no fun being slaughtered (BGs aren't my thing, so that's basically what happens to me), but it still is a very temporary condition.

Probably. Twinking has been a thing in MMORPGs since its inception - there's something about feeling powerful that people enjoy.

I actually meant for the other people - those who are just starting the game and are playing <50BGs normally. They will get crushed, particularly when they run into those who do it for fun, but then you hit 50 and it's over. So I guess I was really asking whether it's a big deal even if this does get abused.

idk · July 2019

I have had mage guild and legerdemain leveled up at lvl 10 before going into Cyrodiil. I fail to see what the difference is between buying it from the cash shop since it is no stronger than what I obtained leveling it up normally.

Seems pretty clear people calling this P2W are just grasping at straws.

Davadin · July 2019

Cortimi wrote: »

AMeanOne wrote: »

Lol looks like OP is ignoring the posts that don't fit his narrative

And you are ignoring the points I made entirely, without any form of rebuttal. GG

The people saying otherwise are not offering any answer to the point: this is introducing a direct way to be even more massively overpowered via cash. Saying "you can spend time getting it" is a useless response, as it does nothing to disprove my point.

This is the only part I disagree:

massively overpowered

a lv10 player going into BG fights another lv10 that bought a Dawnbreaker will be at disadvantage. This is the truth. I agree with OP.

but to say it's massively overpowered, I disagree.

a brand new lv10 will be at a disadvantage against EVERYONE that is no longer a brand new lv10; that includes a lv10 who actually has a lv25, or lv50, or CP810, or any level that can spend 25hr in a weekend, or quite literally anyone that can afford buying the skills via store.

In other words; there is already an existing issue/challenge with lv10 going into PvP. Adding a crown-store skill line will have minimum impact.

massively overpowered due to buying a skill? I think not.

just my 2c.

cheifsoap · July 2019

ArenGesus wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Honest question here, not trying to troll - do people actually care about <50 BGs? You level up so fast that it's inherently meaningless that you're weak or strong compared to others. Does it really matter if you're competitive during this time? I get that it's no fun being slaughtered (BGs aren't my thing, so that's basically what happens to me), but it still is a very temporary condition.

Probably. Twinking has been a thing in MMORPGs since its inception - there's something about feeling powerful that people enjoy.

I actually meant for the other people - those who are just starting the game and are playing <50BGs normally. They will get crushed, particularly when they run into those who do it for fun, but then you hit 50 and it's over. So I guess I was really asking whether it's a big deal even if this does get abused.

I'm sure there are people but that's on them. This is an MMO and like MMO's there are common patterns, twinking in PVP is one of them. If a new person isn't aware of this concept when they begin PVPing, that's their bad. Its not fun sure, but it is what it is ;/

code65536 · July 2019

cheifsoap wrote: »

You're making awful broad strokes with your replies. Just because you don't like twinking doesn't mean hundreds or thousands of other people don't. Why should they sacrifice their enjoyment for you?

LOL, wow.

Does it need to be spelled out that your enjoyment is the result of unfair gameplay? And that as a result, it's coming at the cost of the enjoyment of others?

You could say that aimbotting is giving certain people in an online FPS enjoyment. But you'll be hard-pressed to find people who think that such a thing is fair or enjoyable for the players in general.

Again, just because twinking is already a thing doesn't mean that exacerbating it is okay.

Sandman929 · July 2019

I'd be fine with a level 50 restriction, since I have no interest in low level BGs, but others might not be. And as has been stated many times and ignored constantly, you don't need to buy these skill lines to have them leveled and take advantage of the many disadvantages that new players have against older players who are motivated to find the most out of balance combat they can.

Rake · July 2019

yes

cheifsoap · July 2019

code65536 wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

You're making awful broad strokes with your replies. Just because you don't like twinking doesn't mean hundreds or thousands of other people don't. Why should they sacrifice their enjoyment for you?

LOL, wow.

Does it need to be spelled out that your enjoyment is the result of unfair gameplay? And that as a result, it's coming at the cost of the enjoyment of others?

You could say that aimbotting is giving certain people in an online FPS enjoyment. But you'll be hard-pressed to find people who think that such a thing is fair or enjoyable for the players in general.

Again, just because twinking is already a thing doesn't mean that exacerbating it is okay.

Twinking isn't cheating though; iirc aimbot requires a 3rd party tool. Its part of the game, its part of EVERY MMO. All this update is doing is giving people a quick means to twink their toon, they already had the option of achieving dawnbreaker, ice comet, etc. long before this. All this is doing is giving them a quick means of achieving it.

WrathOfInnos · July 2019

If level 10’s were matched only against other level 10’s you might have a point. However the level 10 with these purchased skill lines is going to be fighting level 30’s and 40’s who likely have already earned these skills. It’s just a time saving convenience.

If you want to make a real argument about P2W take a look at Stamcro’s and Perf Lokke set dominating PVE. Although I can’t say I have a problem with the newest expansion bringing the most powerful builds, otherwise why play it?

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2019

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

OP's point is that people who spend all their gold to destroy newbies in below 50 PVP are now able to buy skill lines they couldn't access before level 50 and gain an even higher advantage over them.

Curse me for playing the devils advocate here, but I understand your justification it's just that not all stats are scaled in below 50 PVP, so its possible for a level 10 to have dawnbreaker or temporal guard or mist form, but they still ARE NOT going to be able to output the same weapon damage as someone who has gear and is level 40+.

I can pretty much say that for most since we unlock undaunted at level 45, I honestly think that requirement should be removed if we're going to be able to buy it.

You can definitly level them before lv 50

Itacira · July 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4

Jabbs_Giggity · July 2019

Chufu wrote: »

I am getting very sick from the phrase "if this goes live, the game is dead". We're hearing this since 2014 (release) and what is? ESO is still alive and in a very good condition, so I think we can be happy that the game hasn't been shut down.

Of course there are a lot of things already that you can buy for your characters, most of them are just cosmetics. You can also buy skyshards (if you have found them with one character) and soon skillines, yes.

But do you HAVE TO buy them?

No, you can still farm the skyshards on your own or level the skilllines without buying them.

Also: nobody NEEDS cosmetics. Of course if you find something cute/dangerous/amazing and you want it, don't hesitate and buy it, but in fact you would not need to buy it.

You don't get any advantage in the crown store that makes you stronger than anyone who hasn't bought these in the crown storage, therefore it's not P2W.

#getbeerinsteadofcrownskilllines

I agree with OP. For a player to have a main with all these skill lines unlocked, all skyshards found, achievements blah blah blah...

It would be completely absurd to allow the same (said above) person to create an Alternate, level it to LVL 10 for PVP and buy all skill lines, skyshards and utilize them in combination with battle leveling for low level PVP. This initself would destroy any competition for low level PVPing.

I think there should be a contingency on Buying Skill-Lines and Skyshards to prevent this - such as you can purchase at any time for your character, but you have to level it to LVL 50 prior to being able to use these purchased skill lines/skyshards.

Hyperion616 · July 2019

Cortimi wrote: »

So did I miss something, or can level 10s buy the entire Fighters Guild and Undaunted lines?

I want you to stop and think a minute what that is going to do to low level Bgs.

Undaunted Mettle, Undaunted Command, Slayer...with a ridiculously buffed Bone Shield and nice Dawnreaker.

Has no one else noticed that all the skill lines available in the cash shop got massive buffs?

If this goes live, your game is dead. I have gone through dozens of MMOs, and watched them all die the exact same way: offering whales a way to curb stomp new players.

No new player is going to go into a BG/Cyro and waste more than 5 minutes in their against CashshopTwink 2.0

You can already buy every skyshard in the game as soon as you want, and that is already entirely too much power at low levels.

And before anyone even dares trying to justify it with "it's pay for convenience", I want you to explain the mathematics of how a level 10 can have Dawnreaker and Undaunted Mettle at lvl 10 without the cash shop. I'll wait.

This will be the beginning of the end, mark my words.

You would have a point if, IF a new player was able to hit up the ole cash shop and buy these right from the get go, which isn't the case. You need to have at least unlocked these and maxed them out on a main character before any alts can purchase them from the shop.

So, it is a "Pay for convenience" because only the people who've already unlocked max rank will bother purchasing them at all. Now, what I would like to add is that this is a slippery slope and to which I'll take the wait and see approach as to what Zos puts in the crown store next.

pieratsos · July 2019

Cortimi wrote: »

And before anyone even dares trying to justify it with "it's pay for convenience", I want you to explain the mathematics of how a level 10 can have Dawnreaker and Undaunted Mettle at lvl 10 without the cash shop. I'll wait.

Its possible to get dawnbreaker even before lvl 5 in game. If you werent gaining xp from exploring you could prob get it at lvl1

ZOS_RogerJ · July 2019

Just a friendly reminder, to keep the thread on-topic, constructive and civil. While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and it's community as a whole.

DuckInRealLife · July 2019

The addition of these items is pay for convenience. Nobody is telling you to get them, and you can grind for them. I can see these being priced at like 2,000 crowns easily.

You can grind it out if you wish, but the option is there to potentially have your efforts become account wide, which confused me why some things in this game are account wide and other things aren't.

I know if my main was not my main, that I would be doing this for undaunted, because that's the one that is the biggest hassle for me.

Sebar80 · July 2019

Sandman929 wrote: »

Cortimi wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

CP are disabled in low-level PvP to prevent Level 10 characters of existing players from rofl-stomping Level 10 players who are truly new to game. If experienced players can unlock all these skills and passives for cash, it is going to unbalance low-level PvP just as much, if not more, than if experienced players could use their CP in low-level PvP.

Alts should need to reach Level 50 before they can buy achievement-based items from the cash shop.

Yes, you can max out these skill lines under Level 50 through normal gameplay. But you will gain a lot of XP along the way. Grinding dolmens will get you Fighters Guild, but you will practically hit Level 50 from all that dolmen grinding. Grinding out dungeon achievements will get you Undaunted, but you will practically hit Level 50 because the quest completion, map item completion, and the achievements themselves give lots of XP.

The XP gained from leveling these skills via normal gameplay put a significant limit on how long you will be able to use them in low-level PvP. That is gone if your Level 10 can just buy them for cash.

Exactly, and nobody is willing to admit that is directly buying an advantage.

I'll admit that. Absolutely. But as someone already showed in this thread, the buying it isn't the problem if someone who knows what they're doing can do the exact same thing before level 25 simply because they do know what they're doing and the new player doesn't.

Buying these already earned achievements is a fast path to doing what you can already do for free, and experience with the game is the greatest disadvantage a new player faces against an old player on a new toon.

Before level 25 its not the same as to at level 3 / 10 for pvp. There is 15 level gap you see

Sandman929 · July 2019

Sebar80 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Cortimi wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

CP are disabled in low-level PvP to prevent Level 10 characters of existing players from rofl-stomping Level 10 players who are truly new to game. If experienced players can unlock all these skills and passives for cash, it is going to unbalance low-level PvP just as much, if not more, than if experienced players could use their CP in low-level PvP.

Alts should need to reach Level 50 before they can buy achievement-based items from the cash shop.

Yes, you can max out these skill lines under Level 50 through normal gameplay. But you will gain a lot of XP along the way. Grinding dolmens will get you Fighters Guild, but you will practically hit Level 50 from all that dolmen grinding. Grinding out dungeon achievements will get you Undaunted, but you will practically hit Level 50 because the quest completion, map item completion, and the achievements themselves give lots of XP.

The XP gained from leveling these skills via normal gameplay put a significant limit on how long you will be able to use them in low-level PvP. That is gone if your Level 10 can just buy them for cash.

Exactly, and nobody is willing to admit that is directly buying an advantage.

I'll admit that. Absolutely. But as someone already showed in this thread, the buying it isn't the problem if someone who knows what they're doing can do the exact same thing before level 25 simply because they do know what they're doing and the new player doesn't.

Buying these already earned achievements is a fast path to doing what you can already do for free, and experience with the game is the greatest disadvantage a new player faces against an old player on a new toon.

Before level 25 its not the same as to at level 3 / 10 for pvp. There is 15 level gap you see

It is the same in the sense that someone decided to make themselves overpowered and oppressive in low level content. That can be done right now with nothing else added for the convenience of other players who aren't doing that.

Everrsor · July 2019

You first need to earn them on other charecter just as you need with skyshard,and no its not even close to p2w

Zedrian · July 2019

My concern with the Undaunted Skill line in the crown store is that it may be an incentive for players NOT to do Veteran Dungeons... Making cue even longer and more difficult for new players to find random people to play with. I met a lot of new players who didn't have guilds by the time they reached CP 160+

On PC this may not be a problem due to high population count and lots of new players... but on Console we really struggle some days to get an undaunted done.

Cortimi · July 2019

Everrsor wrote: »

You first need to earn them on other charecter just as you need with skyshard,and no its not even close to p2w

Because directly buying an advantage is not P2W. Wow.

Even if you "could" collect everything available before lvl 50, which you can't, it is still using an advantage.

It's like saying that having a car to get from A to B is somehow NOT a transportation advantage, because yOu cAn jUsT wAlK tHeRe.

grannas211 · July 2019

There’s already twinks that literally gold out their gear to stomp people in below 50. Below 50 is a joke. New players probably are already getting stomped. This isn’t a big deal.

Itacira · July 2019

Cortimi wrote: »

It's like saying that having a car to get from A to B is somehow NOT a transportation advantage, because yOu cAn jUsT wAlK tHeRe.

Oh look, a sensible person ! Thank you for just being, sensible person !

idk · July 2019

Sandman929 wrote: »

I'd be fine with a level 50 restriction, since I have no interest in low level BGs, but others might not be. And as has been stated many times and ignored constantly, you don't need to buy these skill lines to have them leveled and take advantage of the many disadvantages that new players have against older players who are motivated to find the most out of balance combat they can.

This makes sense as I do not recall major MMORPGs offering to sell full skill lines to characters that were just rolled.

yodased wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

The fact of the matter remains: There are a lot of "old" players who play sub-50 PvP.

They'll roll a new character, play in sub-50 PvP until they reach 50, then roll a new one and repeat the process.

Why do they do this? Because many like how sub-50 is balanced. The gear sets and skills that you face against are more limited.

I can understand their point of view because I personally have a lot more fun in sub-50 BGs than I do in vet BGs. I don't go through the trouble of rolling new characters specifically for this, but I do try to limit the amount of leveling that I do in PvE so that I get to enjoy this sub-50 experience longer.

But here's the key point: As you try to acquire and level those skill lines that grant you power, you are leveling the character. The tradeoff has always been that if you tried to acquire more power against your opponents in sub-50, you will end up spending less time in sub-50.

Buying skill lines means that people with the money to spend can now bypass that tradeoff.

The second consideration is battle-leveling. Battle-leveling is stronger in lower lowbies. That is to say, a level 10 battle-leveled to 50/C160 has better stats than a level 40 battle-leveled to 50/C160. This is to compensate for the fact that a level 10 has a more limited range of skills and abilities available to them. Again, being able to buy skill lines upsets this balancing consideration.

The simple thing to do is to allow the purchase of these things only on level 50 characters. You want a shortcut to leveling? Sure, that's fine. Just wait till you are level 50.

I'm not arguing against your suggestion because I think it's fine, but I believe people are underestimating how expensive it will be to buy a fully-leveled new character. It's really hard for me to imagine this being something done frequently even if you can purchase the skills right out of the gate. And to do it repeatedly just to dominate <50 BGs... I think you'd need a pretty fat wallet to keep your hobby up.

I would never do such a thing. You evidently wouldn't do such a thing. And I think most people wouldn't. But all it takes is for one person to do it to negatively impact the experience of everyone else that they fight against.

So are there people who would do this? I'm sure there will be. If there are people who spend $1000 on Crates to chase after a Radiant Apex mount, I'm sure there will be people who will spend 1/10 of that to feel like a god in PvP.

But people seem to be ignoring the fact that what's being bought with these changes can be done right now for free and still ruin the same content. People already gold out lowbie gear, grind these skill lines up to get the best skills from them, and do all that while staying under level 50.

Yes, twinking is already a thing. But this exacerbates the problem, don't you see? Just because the problem already exists to an extent doesn't mean it should be fine to make it worse.

And nobody is going to get Dawnbreaker at level 10 right now, since getting Dawnbreaker requires killing enemies, and that grants XP. A level 10 with Dawnbreaker is more disruptive than a level 30 with Dawnbreaker because of the stronger scaling of Battle Leveling for the level 10.

Again, all that's needed is a level 50 restriction. If people want this convenience for to get a character up to speed for vet content, this restriction would have no effect on them whatsoever.

Again this is not a true statement. You can get dawnbreaker at level 3.

I doubt this very much. As one who has gotten full mage guild by lvl 10 I do not see it being possible to get dawnbreaker at lvl 3.

@yodased Please enlighten us as to how you can get Dawnbreaker at lvl 3 on live right now?

Jabbs_Giggity · July 2019

yodased wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

The fact of the matter remains: There are a lot of "old" players who play sub-50 PvP.

They'll roll a new character, play in sub-50 PvP until they reach 50, then roll a new one and repeat the process.

Why do they do this? Because many like how sub-50 is balanced. The gear sets and skills that you face against are more limited.

I can understand their point of view because I personally have a lot more fun in sub-50 BGs than I do in vet BGs. I don't go through the trouble of rolling new characters specifically for this, but I do try to limit the amount of leveling that I do in PvE so that I get to enjoy this sub-50 experience longer.

But here's the key point: As you try to acquire and level those skill lines that grant you power, you are leveling the character. The tradeoff has always been that if you tried to acquire more power against your opponents in sub-50, you will end up spending less time in sub-50.

Buying skill lines means that people with the money to spend can now bypass that tradeoff.

The second consideration is battle-leveling. Battle-leveling is stronger in lower lowbies. That is to say, a level 10 battle-leveled to 50/C160 has better stats than a level 40 battle-leveled to 50/C160. This is to compensate for the fact that a level 10 has a more limited range of skills and abilities available to them. Again, being able to buy skill lines upsets this balancing consideration.

The simple thing to do is to allow the purchase of these things only on level 50 characters. You want a shortcut to leveling? Sure, that's fine. Just wait till you are level 50.

I'm not arguing against your suggestion because I think it's fine, but I believe people are underestimating how expensive it will be to buy a fully-leveled new character. It's really hard for me to imagine this being something done frequently even if you can purchase the skills right out of the gate. And to do it repeatedly just to dominate <50 BGs... I think you'd need a pretty fat wallet to keep your hobby up.

I would never do such a thing. You evidently wouldn't do such a thing. And I think most people wouldn't. But all it takes is for one person to do it to negatively impact the experience of everyone else that they fight against.

So are there people who would do this? I'm sure there will be. If there are people who spend $1000 on Crates to chase after a Radiant Apex mount, I'm sure there will be people who will spend 1/10 of that to feel like a god in PvP.

But people seem to be ignoring the fact that what's being bought with these changes can be done right now for free and still ruin the same content. People already gold out lowbie gear, grind these skill lines up to get the best skills from them, and do all that while staying under level 50.

Yes, twinking is already a thing. But this exacerbates the problem, don't you see? Just because the problem already exists to an extent doesn't mean it should be fine to make it worse.

And nobody is going to get Dawnbreaker at level 10 right now, since getting Dawnbreaker requires killing enemies, and that grants XP. A level 10 with Dawnbreaker is more disruptive than a level 30 with Dawnbreaker because of the stronger scaling of Battle Leveling for the level 10.

Again, all that's needed is a level 50 restriction. If people want this convenience for to get a character up to speed for vet content, this restriction would have no effect on them whatsoever.

Again this is not a true statement. You can get dawnbreaker at level 3.

I think what you mean is you can get the fighter's guild skill line at level 3, not Dawnbreaker. Minimum XP needed to unlock Dawnbreaker will get your character above level 10.

Troll...

J2JMC · July 2019

Do we really have to find obscure scenarios just to criticize's ZOS's monetization model? Personally, idgaf about <50 pvp. And I bet most people in this thread don't either. You don't have to go all "but what about the children!" to point out how scummy and anti-consumer this new monetization model by ZOS is.

I wouldn't care if it was theoretically possible to get max skill lines by level 1 without paying for them. It's still disgusting that ZOS is selling features that undermine the purposeful gameplay design for some quick cash. Or, alternatively, they think the gameplay design they currently have is bad. And instead of actually fixing it, they just decided to cash in on it.

Beardimus · July 2019

Cortimi wrote: »

Congrats you missed the entire point. I feel like Cadwell, "am I not speaking the common tongue of Nirn?".
The problem is not new players. Read it again. Slowly this time.

If you complete the skyshard achievements on one character, and collect them all....THEN YOU CAN BUY EVERY SKYSHARD IN THE GAME AS SOON AS YOU WANT.

I mean honestly, is this really so hard to understand?
Yikes some people get so salty when called on their bad comms....

And second its hardly an elephant in the room. Every other thread is talking about it.