WrathOfInnos wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »A very detailed analysis.
I mostly agree with you except on Minor Vulnerability to Mark Target. This skill would bring too much uptime to your trial group at very little cost. Not even saying it would completely push out Infallible Aether set.
I’ve been hearing that IA now requires a full heavy attack on PTS (not just a tick of a Channeled lightning or Resto heavy). If this is the case it’s already dead. No healer will skip 2 skills every 10s to channel a full heavy attack.
Mark target would be an interesting replacement for applying minor vuln. It would go a long way toward making Nightblade healing desirable. Making someone leave the group stack and cast teleport strike every 8s just sounds like awful gameplay. The other options would be stacking Lightning damage and enchants, having several people with Elemental Weapon, or having 1-2 DPS with Perfected Asylum staves.
Soul harvest still has major defile. I say melee mageblade is getting stronger finally. New powerful dots and they want you to use path of darkness to escape before using double take(new name too long) and then use cloak which is cool I think.
The problem with melee magblade at the moment there is no real incentive for the play style, they put themselves at risk of more harm then the typical ranged magblade. The range magblade has access to all the same abilities and more damage with destruction staff light attack weave, if they added major breach to concealed weapon which is also the major armor buff that might make the higher risk higher reward play style more viable also figuring out a viable rework for grim focus which is always dodged at close range since the cast time was added even though it seems the skill is now intended to provide a heal in melee range.
I like the idea that was brought up with grim focus and it's morphs giving major sorcery/major brutality respectively and possibly bringing back minor endurance and minor intellect to the respective morphs would make at least slotting the skill a thought even though the heal with the 7 meter range is going to be extremely unreliable as is.
Lol or RaTSoul harvest still has major defile. I say melee mageblade is getting stronger finally. New powerful dots and they want you to use path of darkness to escape before using double take(new name too long) and then use cloak which is cool I think.
Nothing like a big old ground patch of bright AOE to signal I've run this way.
You have a fair point about vulnerability. But right now, in trials, NB aren't contributing anything to group utility. Dk have engulfing, templar have potl (minor fracture/breach), wardens have toughness, sorc provides an extra synergy. Maybe vulnerability should be the NB thing.
I play 2H / resto melee magblade on live. It's viable, but I very much look forward to getting root / snare immunity without 2H, so I can increase my light attack damage by using a destro staff.Melee magblade with a 2h/dual wield/sword and board with concealed weapon could become viable with grim focus rework. If concealed applied major breach and magblade got a self buffed major sorcery through merciless resolve and it became a consistent form of a heal like it seems to be intended but unfortunately executed poorly, the 2h/dual wield/or even sword and board with the heavy attacks for stamina return and getting the damage needed in melee with major breach I think it would become very viable. A lot of times magicka classes die especially melee based ones is because they are unable to cc break after being drained of stamina.
It would be similar to how mDK's already run sword and board with destruction staff but with a nightblade twist but once again that would require a serious rework of grim focus and getting the heal back consistently and having the damage with major breach on concealed on an already squishy class.
You have a fair point about vulnerability. But right now, in trials, NB aren't contributing anything to group utility. Dk have engulfing, templar have potl (minor fracture/breach), wardens have toughness, sorc provides an extra synergy. Maybe vulnerability should be the NB thing.
That wouldn't change anything, other than make mark target a weaker move in PvP (and cripple piercing mark). Even without IA, a difference of 80% to 100% uptime on minor vulnerability wouldn't be enough to make NBs valued as tanks or healers in trials versus their contemporaries.
The reason DK and Wardens are valued is because they provide powerful effects that can't be acquired elsewhere (or in the case of minor toughness/warrior-poet, isn't worth equipping in group content). And magplars, along with templar tanks/healers, have an extra synergy like magsorcs/sorctank/sorchealer, plus PotL.
Whatever NB and Sorcerers get needs to be something that can't be easily replaced, or that's presence isn't already assumed. Something that would be primarily applied by tanks and healers, but could also be slotted on a dps if necessary.
AoE minor evasion would be perfect for NB. Blur, cloak, malevolent, and path would all be perfect triggers (provided that, especially for malevolent and path, they're additional AoE effects and don't require direct aiming).
If surprise attack worked from the front and caused enemies to take more damage from physical attacks, instead of a percent physical resist debuff, that would have parallels to engulfing.
If they wanted to gut/rework warhorn (the way they removed its max health boost) they could take the AoE max stamina/magicka buffs from that and apply them to NB/Sorc.
I was going to say exactly that in another thread, but then I got to thinking that this is not the way ZOS see it. I think it's precisely their intention that you cannot avail of all buffs, but that you must choose. Warden already has this problem. People complained that it has access to all these buffs, when the class was released, but in reality you can't stack all of them for lack of bar space.thankyourat wrote: »My problem with the direction they are taking magblade is that there is no way to make a functional build and include all the buffs you need.
Actually you I think you guys are discussing the completely wrong skills for magblade balancing. Damage has never been the problem, maybe reliability due to dodges and reflects, but the main issue has been survivability for many patches now.
Screw mark target/ambush/grim focus, what we really need is reliable healing through strife + morphs, sap essence and maybe a reliable burst heal through the new grim focus.
I created a whole post advertising the need to detach the healing of those abilities from their damage done and apply separate healing instances to their user that aren’t diminished by your targets mitigation.
This would truely solve magblade survivability, I can already pressure most players on live if I wasn’t forced into defense with every tickle
I would agree, but I also feel a little sad about this idea, since it's another homogenisation, bringing healing mechanics in line with wardens and stamsorcs. There was a time when Funnel Health was insanely OP, because it double dipped in crit and you could initialise the heal for the whole subsequent fight from your first attack. This was surely unintended / a bug and hence that was the reason it was fixed. It was the beginning of a long line of reasonable fixes that ultimately turned out to be flawed thinking when you look at the sorry state of the skill now. Back then you could initialise your Funnel heal on an IC mob from a guaranteed crit and get healing ticks up to about 8K for you and your buddy.Actually you I think you guys are discussing the completely wrong skills for magblade balancing. Damage has never been the problem, maybe reliability due to dodges and reflects, but the main issue has been survivability for many patches now.
Screw mark target/ambush/grim focus, what we really need is reliable healing through strife + morphs, sap essence and maybe a reliable burst heal through the new grim focus.
I created a whole post advertising the need to detach the healing of those abilities from their damage done and apply separate healing instances to their user that aren’t diminished by your targets mitigation.
This would truely solve magblade survivability, I can already pressure most players on live if I wasn’t forced into defense with every tickle
I would agree, but I also feel a little sad about this idea, since it's another homogenisation, bringing healing mechanics in line with wardens and stamsorcs. There was a time when Funnel Health was insanely OP, because it double dipped in crit and you could initialise the heal for the whole subsequent fight from your first attack. This was surely unintended / a bug and hence that was the reason it was fixed. It was the beginning of a long line of reasonable fixes that ultimately turned out to be flawed thinking when you look at the sorry state of the skill now. Back then you could initialise your Funnel heal on an IC mob from a guaranteed crit and get healing ticks up to about 8K for you and your buddy.Actually you I think you guys are discussing the completely wrong skills for magblade balancing. Damage has never been the problem, maybe reliability due to dodges and reflects, but the main issue has been survivability for many patches now.
Screw mark target/ambush/grim focus, what we really need is reliable healing through strife + morphs, sap essence and maybe a reliable burst heal through the new grim focus.
I created a whole post advertising the need to detach the healing of those abilities from their damage done and apply separate healing instances to their user that aren’t diminished by your targets mitigation.
This would truely solve magblade survivability, I can already pressure most players on live if I wasn’t forced into defense with every tickle
What gives me pause about your proposal is it's impact on PvE. There is an interesting dynamic in IC, more so with magplar. When they attack the set of 3 flag guards with Sweeps, they become virtually invincible due to the healing they generate from that. My magplar was continuously sniped, once, to no effect.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »A very detailed analysis.
I mostly agree with you except on Minor Vulnerability to Mark Target. This skill would bring too much uptime to your trial group at very little cost. Not even saying it would completely push out Infallible Aether set.
I’ve been hearing that IA now requires a full heavy attack on PTS (not just a tick of a Channeled lightning or Resto heavy). If this is the case it’s already dead. No healer will skip 2 skills every 10s to channel a full heavy attack.
Mark target would be an interesting replacement for applying minor vuln. It would go a long way toward making Nightblade healing desirable. Making someone leave the group stack and cast teleport strike every 8s just sounds like awful gameplay. The other options would be stacking Lightning damage and enchants, having several people with Elemental Weapon, or having 1-2 DPS with Perfected Asylum staves.
It all depends on the healing value. Strife already no longer double dips in crit, btw. My survivability against an IC boss is by no means OP from Swallow Soul alone.
NB really suffers with group play utility.
Its the one class thats absolutely not needed in a group at all as it practically brings nothing to the table.
Doesnt help team mates, doesnt buff or debuff groups and the AoE attacks are weak + very expensive to cast
TL;DRProblem: grim focus is lacking functionality
Solution: grim focus should grant major brutality/sorcery. Drain power would lose major brutality/sorcery.
Problem: mark target is lacking functionality.
Solution: mark target should grant minor vulnerability instead of major fracture/breach. Teleport strike would lose minor vulnerability.
Problem: lotus fan is overloaded with functionality.
Solution: teleport strike should lose minor vulnerability. Ambush morph should stun the enemy, even if they are a player.
Problem: incapacitating strike is lacking functionality, on account of minor mangle having very limited usefulness.
Solution: incapacitating strike should lose minor mangle, but stun at the base ability cost of 70 ultimate (instead of 120 ultimate)
Problem: veiled strike is granting too much defense and not enough offense for an offensive spammable.
Solution: veiled strike should be moved to the assassination skill tree, and blur should take its place in the shadow skill tree. Surprise attack should be given major fracture, concealed weapon should be given major breach
I understand why ZOS is rebalancing the NB class. I also agree with their stated goals in Update 22 Combat Direction. And, for the most part, they have been pretty good at working toward those goals in their most recent changes. But the class is nowhere near done, in my opinion. There are a few aspects of the class that still need work, and the following is my detailed explanation of why, followed by some potential solutions to how they could be resolved.
Goals of Class Rebalance, According to Update 22 Combat Direction
1. Eliminate redundancy in class toolkit. If one skill grants a certain function (ex/ major expedition), no other skill within the same class should also grant that function.
2. Redistribute skill functionality. Some skills have too much functionality, while others have too little. The goal is to try to balance functionality between individual skills.
The State of the NB Class as of v5.0.1
1. Redundancy has been resolved. With the removal of fracture from surprise attack, expedition from cripple and double take, and maim from mass hysteria, there are no more instances of multiple NB class skills granting the same function.
2. Functionality between class skills is still not balanced. Some issues of overloaded functionality have been resolved (ex/ surprise attack losing major fracture, incapacitating strike losing major defile, grim focus losing minor berserk and minor endurance), but others still exist (or in some cases have been introduced). Other skills have gained much needed functionality (double take receiving snare removal and immunity), but some others are still underwhelming. I will address these individual cases in detail, which brings me to:
Problem Areas within the NB Class as of v5.0.1
1. Grim Focus and it's morphs is lacking functionality. With the removal of berserk and endurance, this skill is now the only skill in the game (accross all classes) that does not give anything back to the user upon the initial cast. 100% of the functionality of this skill is reliant on the user activating the ability (for resource cost), successfully landing 5 light attacks on an enemy, and then activating the ability again (for more resource cost). To gain the benefit of this skill, the user must sacrifice 2 GCD and also deplete their resources twice, all the while adhering to the skill's complex conditional of landing 5 successful light attacks. No other skill in the game does this. Its an empty skill. Relative to the cost and functionality of other skills in the NB toolkit, this one is severely lacking.
2. Mark Target and its morphs is still lacking functionality. To bump up the relative functionality of Mark Target, major fracture was removed from surprise attack, leaving Mark as the only armor debuff in the NB toolkit. This, however, does not increase the value of the skill on its own, especially when compared to similar skills like elemental drain. Both of these skills provide a major debuff to the enemy's armor, can be used at range, and have similar durations. Mark target costs resources though, where elemental drain does not. Mark target can be applied to only one target, while elemental drain can be applied to many. Mark target's additional functionality (a heal when the marked target dies) relies on a conditional, while elemental drain's magicka steal does not. For the added inconvenience Mark Target brings in comparison to elemental drain, it's benefit is extremely underwhelming.
3. Lotus Fan (morph of Teleport Strike) is overloaded in functionality. This skill acts as a gap closer, applies minor vulnerability to the enemy, snares the enemy, and provides a very strong AoE DoT. Compare this to cripple, which is only a single target DoT and immobilize (half of what Lotus Fan is), and the imbalance in functionality becomes clear.
4. Incapacitating Strike is lacking functionality. Right now, minor mangle is being applied after the damage portion of incapacitating strike. In PvP, this means that after using incap on an enemy, mangle is reducing their max hp by 10%, but this 10% of their hp has already been lost due to the damage of incap itself or the damage of other skills used before incap in combo. It is contributing nothing in PvP. In PvE, mangle can be useful for eliminating potentially millions of hp from enemy bosses. But this is only the case with 100% uptime, and this is not achievable given the ultimate cost and short duration of mangle provided by incapacitating strike. Minor mangle is adding virtually nothing to the skill, leaving the only difference between Incapacitating Strike and the base skill, Death Stroke, to be that for increased ultimate cost the ability stuns the enemy. Compare this to the other morph, soul harvest, which gains major defile and also ultimate generation for killing enemies and incap becomes extremely underwhelming. If you compare incap to dawn breaker (which costs only 5 ultimate more), the skill becomes even more underwhelming. Dawn breaker does everything incap does (for a similar cost), but acts as an AoE when incap is single target. The DoT of DB offsets the 20% damage increase of incap. Incapacitating Strike is definitely lacking, especially considering how it is an ultimate ability.
5. Veiled Strike has enough functionality, but it's focus should shift away from defense and toward offense. As a spammable attack, this skill should be used primarily for its offensive capabilities. But as a skill in the shadow tree, it is currently granting the user defensive bonuses in major ward and resolve on account of the shadow barrier passive. With the boost to power extraction's tooltip damage and the removal of fracture from surprise attack, this single target spammable is just barely ahead of the NB AoE spammable in terms of damage output. I find myself primarily using this ability for access to major ward and resolve. This skill should be more oriented toward offense, and not defense.
Potential Solutions
1. Grim Focus and it's morphs should grant major brutality/sorcery. Providing these major buffs would distribute much needed functionality to this skill, while at the same time keeping the overall power of the NB class unchanged because they already have access to these through other skills. To resolve potential redundancy issues, major brutality/sorcery should be removed from drain power and its morphs (which provide enough functionality on their own without these buffs).
2. Mark Target and it's morphs should apply minor vulnerability instead of major fracture and breach. This would provide a very powerful debuff that is capable of stacking with outside sources of fracture and breach, and make the skill a lot more valuable in group play, while keeping almost exactly the same value in solo play. To resolve redundancy issues, minor vulnerability should be removed from Teleport Strike and it's morphs, which brings me to:
3. Teleport Strike should no longer provide minor vulnerability, and the Ambush morph should stun the enemy (even if it is an enemy player). This change would remove some of the functionality from the currently overloaded Lotus Fan, while at the same time keeping the Ambush morph up to speed. The removal of minor vulnerability on this ability opens up the door for minor vulnerability on mark target as well.
4. Incapacitating strike should lose minor mangle and instead stun the enemy at 70 ultimate (the base cost of the ability) instead of 120 ultimate. The loss of mangle wouldn't hurt the skill much (uselessness of mangle outlined above), but it would allow for the price of the stun to be dropped down to the base ability cost in compensation. This way, in comparison to the base skill death stroke, incapacitating strike would flat out gain a stun (without the conditional of a higher cost) which would allow it to compete with soul harvest's major defile and ultimate generation. It would also differentiate it from Dawn breaker, allowing it to be a cheaper, single target alternative.
5. Veiled strike and it's morphs should be moved to the assassination skill tree, and blur and it's morphs should be moved to the shadow skill tree. Then, surprise attack could provide major fracture and concealed weapon could provide major breach. Having major fracture on surprise attack was too strong because, as a shadow skill, surprise attack was also granting the user major ward/resolve on account of the shadow barrier passive. Moving this skill out of the shadow tree would eliminate this defensive bonus, and allow the skill to keep its major armor debuff, emphasizing its offensive capability and highlighting the high risk/high reward playstyle of the NB class. Removing the major resistances from the main spammable attack would force NB to periodically go on the defensive as opposed to continuously attacking, emphasizing their bursty nature. I highly doubt this change has any chance of being implemented, but that's not going to stop me from posting it here as I feel it's the right direction to take the class.
The Effects of these Changes
In PvP, adopting these changes together wouldn't affect the overall power of the NB class, but it would make NB combat flow so much smoother. Right now, NB have too much of a "spin up time" on buffing themselves and debuffing enemy targets to gain maximum damage potential. They are expected to mark the target (for fracture/breach), then open with incap strike (for mangle), or with ambush (for vulnerability), or with drain power (for brutality/sorcery). Placing brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus instead of drain power and minor vulnerability on mark target instead of teleport strike both work toward streamlining the buffing/debuffing process and put less pressure on NB to open up a fight with a specific moveset. By condensing their buffs and debuff into two skills outside of their spammable (grim focus and mark target), it allows for a shorter time and resource investment to reach max damage potential and makes it easier to retain that potential while switching targets. It would also eliminate the opportunity cost of opening up with a specific skill instead of another. I believe these changes would drastically help the flow of NB combat, while both increasing balance between the abilities in the NB toolkit and also maintaining balance between NB and other classes.
On the PvE side of things, these changes would be a drastic boost to NB group utility. Letting mark target grant minor vulnerability would help open the door to NB in support roles (tank/healer). Right now, most healers are running infallible aether for reliable uptime on minor vulnerability. Putting a reliable source of minor vulnerability in the NB toolkit (without the drawback of gap closing to the target) would allow healers to forego infallible aether, and instead wear a different utility set. They still probably wouldn't be 100% meta, but it would definitely boost their competitiveness and finally let them bring something to the table in group play.
However, more healing is needed for the Magblade, because the developers set us up for a rapprochement, but the stamina has Roll-Dodge, Vigor, Rally, magic has nothing. Healing is extremely small and forces you to use a Swallow Soul, which helps very little, changes in the Cloak do not provide healing and exclude the possibility of a sudden attack, what remains? Use shields? This is often not enough...
TL;DR
4.If you compare incap to dawn breaker (which costs only 5 ultimate more), the skill becomes even more underwhelming. Dawn breaker does everything incap does (for a similar cost), but acts as an AoE when incap is single target. The DoT of DB offsets the 20% damage increase of incap. Incapacitating Strike is definitely lacking, especially considering how it is an ultimate ability.
Soul harvest still has major defile. I say melee mageblade is getting stronger finally. New powerful dots and they want you to use path of darkness to escape before using double take(new name too long) and then use cloak which is cool I think.
I agree.. melee mageblade is starting to have too many good offensive abilities but poor defense. I dunno refreshing path could have used the snares immunity upon activation only for yourself while keeping the major expedition and the heal is small in pvp anyway. Or just keeping the expedition on double take with the immunity. Cause everyone will probably use RaT.Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »Soul harvest still has major defile. I say melee mageblade is getting stronger finally. New powerful dots and they want you to use path of darkness to escape before using double take(new name too long) and then use cloak which is cool I think.
Umm... In three global cooldowns to set up an escape (which escape creation comes when we see the advantage we have lost), a Magicka Nightblade is dead. Cool idea... Not cool at all in execution of the escape. Way too clunky and bar heavy. And Mageblade isn't getting stronger... It is literally just not getting their ultimate nerfed as hard as their stamina Nightblade. Getting no nerfs on ultimate does not make a Mageblade stronger, it makes them the same.