NB Changes v5.0.1: Problem Areas and Potential Solutions

Jeezye

Iskiab wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=132297

Here’s as far as I’ve gotten building a 5.0.1 spec. Any way to fill in the blanks and make it not suck for BGs, or should I ditch attempting mitigation for health recovery? This would be for attempting melee magblade.

I’m wondering is stacking enough healing with high mitigation would work. Swallow soul, sap, refreshing, rapid regen, harness magicka, etc...

Basicly apply the dots with lotus, keep refreshing and the combat prayer buff up, keep swallow soul up. Idk.

IDK man, if you wanna go for a tanky route I'd prefer major protection in light armor over heavy armor resistance stacking every day. It cant be penetrated, applies to bleeds and results in roughly the same overall damage reduction.

I found the key to high survivability is haivng enough crit rating to let your hots tick high enough, that is siphoning attacks and dark cloak (which both aren't amplified by magicka/spellmg) and your overall healing is also pushed by damage done. Thus, light armor is way superior to heavy armor imo, even if you want to build tanky. Triune jewelry makes up for the loss in hp.

I agree in principal but haven’t figured out a way to get 100% uptime on major protection.

Other thing is offsetting damage with healing only works 1v1. Second you add BG aoe spam mitigation becomes more important. Basicly it’s so you have reaction time to escape/cloak. With 20k resists plus 10% buffer of the swift damage reduction shalks still hits for 5k, without enough mitigation you’ll die in one GCD.

Typical BG group tactic is to push the front line into the back line, then leap + shalks + DB (or ult dump). I’m just trying to figure out how to survive long enough to shade out.

Btw, what I linked was light armour. I agree the pen and sustain from light is definitely required

100% major protection buff is pretty tricky. In non-cloak builds, I'm always married to pirate skeleton as it also naturally reduced the burst you take and gives you a prolonged window for your hots to heal you up.

A really interesting combo is matching pirate skeleton with jorvulds, which actually puts you at 100% major protection and allows for some interesting synergies with the rest of the nightblade toolkit. I've ran that in combination with SPC and combat prayer to have really high buff uptimes for my group, but I dropped it when my offheal nightblade got reckt in nerfmire

I don’t like proc’d defensive sets because bad RNG will lead to a death, or I should say I don’t like relying on them for mitigation.

I never considered Jorvuld for pvp though thanks. Gives me an awesome idea for my Templar with jorvuld plus steadfast hero.

For those who want to change the major resolve/ward from using a shadow ability.... I don’t get it. How hard is it to use a shadowy ability every once in a while. That passive is a huge advantage for playing a NB, it gives us sooo much skill slot economy it’s crazy.

Yeah I dont use conceiled anyways and still manage to have 100% uptime on shadow barrier.

Jorvulds also pairs insanly well with BRP resto btw I agree relying on one set defensively is bad, but add some decent resistances, major evasion and minor protection to that and the very seconds skeleton might be down are neglectable. Also note that skelly has a CD of 12 secoconds but protection has a 15 sec duration, thus giving you 3 secodns to proc the set again while protection is active.. really like it

KatySpirit

stimpy986b14_ESO wrote: »

3. While I agree with this point I would say that the snare from lotus fan should be removed as well and Drain power should snare all targets hit. Lotus Fan still has the powerful aoe DoT and gap closer and drain power would retain some utility instead of being a straight damage/heal ability after losing major brutality/sorcery. This also fills a pretty large gap in the NB tank's toolkit as NB is currently the only class w/o an aoe snare/immobilize. .

Tank absolutely needs a snare/immobilize. I just don't think drain power should be the skill that does this, it already hits very hard and on a DPS it would be overkill. Perhaps Aspect of Terror would be a better skill for the tank's aoe stun/immobilize since it isn't very useful in PVE to have mobs running all over the place, and a stun wouldn't be that different from a fear in PVP, would it? A shame they are removing the debuff.

twing1_

KatySpirit wrote: »

stimpy986b14_ESO wrote: »

3. While I agree with this point I would say that the snare from lotus fan should be removed as well and Drain power should snare all targets hit. Lotus Fan still has the powerful aoe DoT and gap closer and drain power would retain some utility instead of being a straight damage/heal ability after losing major brutality/sorcery. This also fills a pretty large gap in the NB tank's toolkit as NB is currently the only class w/o an aoe snare/immobilize. .

Tank absolutely needs a snare/immobilize. I just don't think drain power should be the skill that does this, it already hits very hard and on a DPS it would be overkill. Perhaps Aspect of Terror would be a better skill for the tank's aoe stun/immobilize since it isn't very useful in PVE to have mobs running all over the place, and a stun wouldn't be that different from a fear in PVP, would it? A shame they are removing the debuff.

Fear got changed, so now it holds the enemies in place similar to a stun. Aspect of terror is a very good cc in a tanks toolkit now.

Lord_Eomer

Stam NB were always doing great and even with current patch it would not affect much but reduce their burst potention.

Mag NB may need some buff but Stam NB never!

KatySpirit

twing1_ wrote: »

KatySpirit wrote: »

stimpy986b14_ESO wrote: »

3. While I agree with this point I would say that the snare from lotus fan should be removed as well and Drain power should snare all targets hit. Lotus Fan still has the powerful aoe DoT and gap closer and drain power would retain some utility instead of being a straight damage/heal ability after losing major brutality/sorcery. This also fills a pretty large gap in the NB tank's toolkit as NB is currently the only class w/o an aoe snare/immobilize. .

Tank absolutely needs a snare/immobilize. I just don't think drain power should be the skill that does this, it already hits very hard and on a DPS it would be overkill. Perhaps Aspect of Terror would be a better skill for the tank's aoe stun/immobilize since it isn't very useful in PVE to have mobs running all over the place, and a stun wouldn't be that different from a fear in PVP, would it? A shame they are removing the debuff.

Fear got changed, so now it holds the enemies in place similar to a stun. Aspect of terror is a very good cc in a tanks toolkit now.

That's great! One thing to look forward to.

Iskiab

twing1_ wrote: »

KatySpirit wrote: »

stimpy986b14_ESO wrote: »

3. While I agree with this point I would say that the snare from lotus fan should be removed as well and Drain power should snare all targets hit. Lotus Fan still has the powerful aoe DoT and gap closer and drain power would retain some utility instead of being a straight damage/heal ability after losing major brutality/sorcery. This also fills a pretty large gap in the NB tank's toolkit as NB is currently the only class w/o an aoe snare/immobilize. .

Tank absolutely needs a snare/immobilize. I just don't think drain power should be the skill that does this, it already hits very hard and on a DPS it would be overkill. Perhaps Aspect of Terror would be a better skill for the tank's aoe stun/immobilize since it isn't very useful in PVE to have mobs running all over the place, and a stun wouldn't be that different from a fear in PVP, would it? A shame they are removing the debuff.

Fear got changed, so now it holds the enemies in place similar to a stun. Aspect of terror is a very good cc in a tanks toolkit now.

It’s also a pvp buff. I was worried when I saw that mass hysteria lost minor maim, but after trying it I much prefer it to live in my limited testing.

JinxxND

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Stam NB were always doing great and even with current patch it would not affect much but reduce their burst potention.

Mag NB may need some buff but Stam NB never!

Stamina nightblade isn't doing well in the PTS mainly due to the Surprise Attack change and having major fracture on the only skill in game that doesn't use the classes primary resource pool for the debuff. Magicka nightblades problem has been survival which partly gets addressed with added forms of snare removals without pigeon holing it into vampire to be forced to take super charged dawnbreakers, silver leashes etc. and other negatives that come with Vampire.

While magicka nightblade gets the redundancy of having access to major breach via destruction staff which also provides added sustain and mark target.

A few of us have listed possible changes to correct these redundancy issues and provide more options for all nightblades with moving Major Fracture back to Surprise Attack and Minor Vulnerability to mark target and it's morphs instead of teleport strike and it's morphs with pretty in depth explanations as to why these would be positive moves for all nightblades not just stamina nightblade.

brandonv516

Iskiab wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

KatySpirit wrote: »

stimpy986b14_ESO wrote: »

3. While I agree with this point I would say that the snare from lotus fan should be removed as well and Drain power should snare all targets hit. Lotus Fan still has the powerful aoe DoT and gap closer and drain power would retain some utility instead of being a straight damage/heal ability after losing major brutality/sorcery. This also fills a pretty large gap in the NB tank's toolkit as NB is currently the only class w/o an aoe snare/immobilize. .

Tank absolutely needs a snare/immobilize. I just don't think drain power should be the skill that does this, it already hits very hard and on a DPS it would be overkill. Perhaps Aspect of Terror would be a better skill for the tank's aoe stun/immobilize since it isn't very useful in PVE to have mobs running all over the place, and a stun wouldn't be that different from a fear in PVP, would it? A shame they are removing the debuff.

Fear got changed, so now it holds the enemies in place similar to a stun. Aspect of terror is a very good cc in a tanks toolkit now.

It’s also a pvp buff. I was worried when I saw that mass hysteria lost minor maim, but after trying it I much prefer it to live in my limited testing.

And a slight nerf to Manifestation of Terror.

There is still good in that morph for sure (potential to fear 12 enemies, conspicious delayed traps) but in almost all scenarios Mass Hysteria will be a better choice.

JinxxND

Iskiab wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

KatySpirit wrote: »

stimpy986b14_ESO wrote: »

3. While I agree with this point I would say that the snare from lotus fan should be removed as well and Drain power should snare all targets hit. Lotus Fan still has the powerful aoe DoT and gap closer and drain power would retain some utility instead of being a straight damage/heal ability after losing major brutality/sorcery. This also fills a pretty large gap in the NB tank's toolkit as NB is currently the only class w/o an aoe snare/immobilize. .

Tank absolutely needs a snare/immobilize. I just don't think drain power should be the skill that does this, it already hits very hard and on a DPS it would be overkill. Perhaps Aspect of Terror would be a better skill for the tank's aoe stun/immobilize since it isn't very useful in PVE to have mobs running all over the place, and a stun wouldn't be that different from a fear in PVP, would it? A shame they are removing the debuff.

Fear got changed, so now it holds the enemies in place similar to a stun. Aspect of terror is a very good cc in a tanks toolkit now.

It’s also a pvp buff. I was worried when I saw that mass hysteria lost minor maim, but after trying it I much prefer it to live in my limited testing.

While I personally like that the fear fears more targets I don't like it not causing enemies to run away as that was it's biggest application and utility in group play in an already extremely limited toolkit for group play on nightblade. Fearing an enemy AWAY from you or your teammate causing them to have to cc break burning stamina resources then make up the ground they lost running in the opposite direction and in PvE usually the tank uses a cc such as silver leash to pull mobs to him to get focused down by the rest of the group not to just cc in place.

Iskiab

JinxxND wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

KatySpirit wrote: »

stimpy986b14_ESO wrote: »

3. While I agree with this point I would say that the snare from lotus fan should be removed as well and Drain power should snare all targets hit. Lotus Fan still has the powerful aoe DoT and gap closer and drain power would retain some utility instead of being a straight damage/heal ability after losing major brutality/sorcery. This also fills a pretty large gap in the NB tank's toolkit as NB is currently the only class w/o an aoe snare/immobilize. .

Tank absolutely needs a snare/immobilize. I just don't think drain power should be the skill that does this, it already hits very hard and on a DPS it would be overkill. Perhaps Aspect of Terror would be a better skill for the tank's aoe stun/immobilize since it isn't very useful in PVE to have mobs running all over the place, and a stun wouldn't be that different from a fear in PVP, would it? A shame they are removing the debuff.

Fear got changed, so now it holds the enemies in place similar to a stun. Aspect of terror is a very good cc in a tanks toolkit now.

It’s also a pvp buff. I was worried when I saw that mass hysteria lost minor maim, but after trying it I much prefer it to live in my limited testing.

While I personally like that the fear fears more targets I don't like it not causing enemies to run away as that was it's biggest application and utility in group play in an already extremely limited toolkit for group play on nightblade. Fearing an enemy AWAY from you or your teammate causing them to have to cc break burning stamina resources then make up the ground they lost running in the opposite direction and in PvE usually the tank uses a cc such as silver leash to pull mobs to him to get focused down by the rest of the group not to just cc in place.

You’re thinking like a Nightblade. In BGs and most pvp people slot aoe so not having them run away gives a clear aoe target for your group. Things like shalks are more likely to hit.

I’m a healer so use it defensively. Idk if it was hitting pets or whatnot before, who knows with no log? However 2 targets is pretty limited, and if a team of 4 is beating on you in a BG it can be a lifesaver.

The only time I use it offensively is when I see someone blocking. Fear goes through the block and will stop them from blocking.

Like you said, NB’s have a limited cc arsenal and I’d recommend every NB (magblade at least) use this skill after the patch.

JinxxND

Like I said I think being able to fear more targets is a good thing cause factors like pets and just big groups, but not causing them to run away I think is bad because the utility it has served. Specifically in BG's you wouldn't fear before a shalk combo because usually that's followed by a dawnbreaker of smiting after the group has been fractured from the aoe. Not putting them in CC immunity early to make it harder for them to avoid follow up damage with a cc from a damaging skill.

Jagdkommando

About stamblades minor Berserk buff, i think we need it back for 2 reasons. First is minor: not in all groups we get that (and not only NBs) from healer. And the main thing is:
stamblades have the biggest problem with survivability in the game. Sometimes even very exped players die, because they are always in close kombat^^ with the boss/mobs, always standing in potential aoe damage area, dont have self heals and have the lowest HP pool compared to other classes. And this playstyle should be rewarded, even stamblade will do a little bit more dmg than others. Risky and difficult playstyle should be rewarded!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Silver_Strider

At this point, all I care about is keeping my NB Tank alive, something I'll be unable to do if the Dark Cloak change goes live.

I understand that Stamblade deals great damage and will more or less be fine going into Elsweyr but Magblade, Healblade and Tankblades are all in dire straits and need help.

twing1_

Silver_Strider wrote: »

At this point, all I care about is keeping my NB Tank alive, something I'll be unable to do if the Dark Cloak change goes live.

NB class reps have already told me that is their number 1 priority for the next meeting, which is why it is not included in this post. They are going to push for a front loaded heal, something like 10% health recovered for the first two seconds and then 2% health restored for the remaining 6.

Jagdkommando

Silver_Strider wrote: »

At this point, all I care about is keeping my NB Tank alive, something I'll be unable to do if the Dark Cloak change goes live.

I understand that Stamblade deals great damage and will more or less be fine going into Elsweyr but Magblade, Healblade and Tankblades are all in dire straits and need help.

Agree with you mate, but if stamblade goes live like this it means minus 7-9k dps and still squishy as hell.... And 7-9k is very huge numbers.

Colecovision

Jagdkommando wrote: »

About stamblades minor Berserk buff, i think we need it back for 2 reasons. First is minor: not in all groups we get that (and not only NBs) from healer. And the main thing is:
stamblades have the biggest problem with survivability in the game. Sometimes even very exped players die, because they are always in close kombat^^ with the boss/mobs, always standing in potential aoe damage area, dont have self heals and have the lowest HP pool compared to other classes. And this playstyle should be rewarded, even stamblade will do a little bit more dmg than others. Risky and difficult playstyle should be rewarded!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I'd take anything!

This can't be both a heavy attack class and a constant attack to heal class. Dw enchantments nerf, race nerfs, food nerf, minor endurance and now I'm locked in to slimecraw + nightmothers and dark cloak does nothing. It's just too much. We should get one thing back so we can actually have a build.

twing1_

Jagdkommando wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

At this point, all I care about is keeping my NB Tank alive, something I'll be unable to do if the Dark Cloak change goes live.

I understand that Stamblade deals great damage and will more or less be fine going into Elsweyr but Magblade, Healblade and Tankblades are all in dire straits and need help.

Agree with you mate, but if stamblade goes live like this it means minus 7-9k dps and still squishy as hell.... And 7-9k is very huge numbers.

That is only if your solo dps numbers are ~87k. Seeing as most skilled players are hardly breaking 55k in solo dps parses, those numbers drop down to a loss of ~4.4k dps.

Jagdkommando

twing1_ wrote: »

Jagdkommando wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

At this point, all I care about is keeping my NB Tank alive, something I'll be unable to do if the Dark Cloak change goes live.

I understand that Stamblade deals great damage and will more or less be fine going into Elsweyr but Magblade, Healblade and Tankblades are all in dire straits and need help.

Agree with you mate, but if stamblade goes live like this it means minus 7-9k dps and still squishy as hell.... And 7-9k is very huge numbers.

That is only if your solo dps numbers are ~87k. Seeing as most skilled players are hardly breaking 55k in solo dps parses, those numbers drop down to a loss of ~4.4k dps.

Anyway its not small loss, and keep in mind that you dont have all buffs up for 100% of time. Considering stamblades low survivability its fair to have minor Berserk back

Jagdkommando

twing1_ wrote: »

Jagdkommando wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

At this point, all I care about is keeping my NB Tank alive, something I'll be unable to do if the Dark Cloak change goes live.

I understand that Stamblade deals great damage and will more or less be fine going into Elsweyr but Magblade, Healblade and Tankblades are all in dire straits and need help.

Agree with you mate, but if stamblade goes live like this it means minus 7-9k dps and still squishy as hell.... And 7-9k is very huge numbers.

That is only if your solo dps numbers are ~87k. Seeing as most skilled players are hardly breaking 55k in solo dps parses, those numbers drop down to a loss of ~4.4k dps.

Also if we have scenario like Zmaja standing in one spot and we dont have any mechanics to be done, then you are right its a very small loss, but for example if you get to the crystal in second realm in vCR you have exact 18% loss in dps (10% from fracture and 8% from Berserk) and we have too many similar scenarios....

Insco851

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

At this point, all I care about is keeping my NB Tank alive, something I'll be unable to do if the Dark Cloak change goes live.

NB class reps have already told me that is their number 1 priority for the next meeting, which is why it is not included in this post. They are going to push for a front loaded heal, something like 10% health recovered for the first two seconds and then 2% health restored for the remaining 6.

So similar to the wardens health based heal... useless for pvp. I’d almost argue the 4.5% now is better. 25k health = 2.5/2 = 1200 up front (lol) and 500/2 = 250 per second additionally...

At least with the 4.5 it’s a slightly less useless 500-600 per tick in pvp. 450 more healing over the first 2 seconds isn’t doin anything.

Back to Slotting troll king.

Edit: reread what you said .. first 2 seconds... slightly less laughable but still...

They have a terrible time balancing a tank heal in Pve for any usefulness in pvp. Considering that skill is basically mandatory on a NB, the non invis morph should have legit pvp potential. I hate that they have chosen this skill to balance around pve tanking.

Azurya

twing1_ wrote: »

I understand why ZOS is rebalancing the NB class. I also agree with their stated goals in Update 22 Combat Direction. And, for the most part, they have been pretty good at working toward those goals in their most recent changes. But the class is nowhere near done, in my opinion. There are a few aspects of the class that still need work, and the following is my detailed explanation of why, followed by some potential solutions to how they could be resolved.

I don´t and cannot agree with any point you are bringing up, it is obvious, this is a fake thread trying to wreck NB even more and kick NB below ZERO, nice attempt, but not working, because we recognize early enough

so lets get down to work:
Incap, no longer has major defile, therefor goodfornothing Mangle! And why should I slot it then? Because it has new shiny icon???? or what, better delete the ultimate at all!

Grim focus , removed Minor Berserk, now it heals if you are within 7 meters of your target when it hits, a spectral bow and 7 SEVEN Meters range???? what is that, you are crank guys! read you yourself what comes out of your brains???
I am a NB, not a healer, I want to kill mobs, bosses and so on, not heal myself!!!! Get that in your brains!

Then you write: " NB keep on using their toolkit EVEN without bonusses!" YES OFC, because it is OUR NB TOOLKIT, why did you even put those skills up if you don´t intended them to be used?????? WHY???

Dark cloak heals too now?? for what, we didn´t ask you for that, we don´t want it so let it be!!!
After you nerfed masshysteria so it only affected just 2 opponents now you get it back to up to 6 ??? Why, hardly see any NB using it nowadays, because of the previous nerfs, and now you take away the snare, also good, wasn´t it using no more, and this further nerf will not change that.

Summon shade? just another nerf and waste of slotplace.

Suprise attack get a NERF while we can use mark target?? If you want to remove Major Fracture, remove it from Mark target, not many use it, so get it, BUT to nerf Suprise Attack is a slap in the face, it is one of our few basic tools we have and use!

In your notes on cripple you mentioned something like "our standardized DoT ruleset"! are you using that only on NB(?), because I don´t see much of it when I play my sorc or magden?!?! (see also your blablabla on soul tether)
Drain power was already crap for seasons, not imrpoving this patch.
Soul tether was worstskill-in-slot, will be much longer, if you do it your way.

and then you threaten us with upcoming further NERFS on major expedition, guys you must have lost your mind!
serious, have you ever read what you prepared here for NBs??
We don´t see any Stamblades in any raid worthy to be called that way, because we already had very little to offer there!
No we cannot offer anything brought up by our class, because it was all taken away.
Why do you make all that noise , just delete the class from the game if you are already stripping us once again from the last parts that give us at least a bit of a feeling that made it worthy playing a NB.

Our class is named NIGHTBLADE, we don´t deserve it to be LOSERS,(as nobody does!!)
we want our class to be stealthy, to land our first attack coming out of nowhere
we want to hit and not to heal
we want to wreck and not to tank
we are NIGHTBLADES, we are what we are
it is our DESTINY, our GOAL and our HERITAGE to be what we are
we cannot be anything else!

twing1_

Azurya wrote: »

I don´t and cannot agree with any point you are bringing up, it is obvious, this is a fake thread trying to wreck NB even more and kick NB below ZERO, nice attempt, but not working, because we recognize early enough

So you don't agree with me when I propose that Mark target should lose major fracture (in favor of minor vulnerability) and that the surprise attack nerf should be reverted?

But what about when you say this:

Azurya wrote: »

If you want to remove Major Fracture, remove it from Mark target, not many use it, so get it, BUT to nerf Suprise Attack is a slap in the face, it is one of our few basic tools we have and use!

This sure makes it sound like you agree with me.

But I doubt you even read that part. It seems to me that you are lashing out against my thread without even reading the bulk of it. You quote me saying that I agree with ZOS's stated goals (which I do), but then seem to have ignored the entire remainder of the post in which I explain that their goals could have been accomplished in a better way that stays more true to the NB class identity.

In the future, before you criticize, please take the time to read the content you are criticizing before making snap judgments. Oftentimes you will find that most content (after reading it) has merit beyond the thread title and introductory paragraph. And who knows, you might even end up in agreement with some of the stuff you otherwise would have skipped over.

P.S. I know this is a rather long thread, so for your convenience I've added a TL;DR spoiler at the top of the page that has nice, clear, concise bullet points outlining the problem areas that need addressing imo (incap, mark target, surprise attack are among these, which you have also mentioned as problem areas) and potential solutions to them. Have a nice day.

KatySpirit

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

At this point, all I care about is keeping my NB Tank alive, something I'll be unable to do if the Dark Cloak change goes live.

NB class reps have already told me that is their number 1 priority for the next meeting, which is why it is not included in this post. They are going to push for a front loaded heal, something like 10% health recovered for the first two seconds and then 2% health restored for the remaining 6.

I could cry with relief right now I will be singing this news to my NB tank friend! Thank you, class representatives, for listening.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I understand that Stamblade deals great damage and will more or less be fine going into Elsweyr but Magblade, Healblade and Tankblades are all in dire straits and need help.

I hope they will take a look at healblades as well at some point. Healers are not nearly as loud about their nerfs as DPS are, and that is likely because we are not in as competitive of an environment, but nightblade healers have been nerfed a lot over several updates now. I could post an entire thread explaining the issues with how mediocre it has become and how there is no reason to choose to heal on a nightblade anymore over other classes, but I want them to make sure NB tank is not totally destroyed before I bother them with a lot about why NB healer merely offers nothing interesting anymore. At least it CAN heal, even if it has lost basically all of its character and relies almost entirely on weapon/guild abilities that anyone can use or on under performing class skills that have superior counterparts in other classes.

Iskiab

Yea, I think the devs could buff the heck out of dark cloak and it would have zero pvp effect. I don’t think there’s a risk for heavy armour magblade to become overpowered.

Shadowy disguise right now is ridiculously better than dark cloak in pvp. Suppressing dots alone probably mitigates four times the damage dark cloak heals, and if someone wants to heal themselves right now spamming combat prayer is the equivalent of a 20% tooltip heal every cast for most magblades, plus it’s aoe and crits for more.

I think the devs can safely double dark cloak’s heal with zero pvp effect, people will still use disguise in pvp. Hopefully ZoS throws NB tanks a bone, they deserve it.

Jabbs_Giggity

Fiktius wrote: »

Jagdkommando wrote: »

So once again we need that debuff on Surprise Attack to support in group fights, also Gina asked something like this "Do you think that changes going against of spirit of the class" so NBs supposed to be independent assassins and they must have a couple of buffs/debuffs more than other classes but be less defensive (i think here is real spirit of assassin, that you'd do everything right or die). BUT thus NB in right hands will be very strong (yet again not OP), i suggest to remove/move to other skill line passives Major Ward/Resolve Buff. Because as a nerf we can reduce survivability of NBs. So even for right handed players will be difficult to play as a NB, BUT rewarding!

I'm sorry, but I'll now say this directly and honestly: This is worst balance regarding suggestion I've seen.
Nightblade class is not only about doing sick damage as DD, tanks and healers exists too.
Removing major ward/resolve from passives would be GIANT MISTAKE, especially when we have no class skill which provides the same buff.
NB tanking/non-visibility builds already got hurt due nerf of Dark Cloack. Worst thing you could do for Nightblades would be cutting their resistances as well.
Not to mention that PVE is not the only aspect of the game, this major ward is super important aspect of defensive kit of Nightblades in PvP. Removing major resolve/ward is one of the worst things which I can imagine.

EDIT: In case I completely understood your message wrong, I would like to ask clarification:
Are you suggesting that major resolve/ward will be entirely deleted or do you suggest that major ward/resolve should be moved to another class skill? Because if you intended the second one, then it would be much less horrible suggestion.

Major Ward/Resolve is not linked to class skill - it is linked to activating a class skill within the Shadow skill tree I.E. most used spammable Veiled Strike. OP is suggesting switching Veiled strike skill from Shadow tree to Assassination tree and Blur to Shadow tree from Assassination tree. This has been an argument to ZOS for years = still not done.

Also, to mention PVE NB Tanks you can always use Immovable from Heavy Armor line as your source of Major Resolve/Ward. Just saying...

Fiktius

@Jabbs_Giggity I'm very well aware. If you did read my edited part, you could also notice that first I understood that Jagdkommando meant to suggest complete removal of major ward/resolve buff, which turned out to be that it clearly was not what he meant to say. He even clarified that at another post which he wrote later. ^^

KatySpirit

As a nightblade healer who cannot wear 5 heavy armor for the armor skill, I do appreciate having access to major ward/resolve from my class skills. All other classes of healers have these buffs as well, and I would rather it not be removed from nightblade's skill-related buffs. If it is abused in PVP, moving the damage skill to a skill line that does not have this buff is preferred to removing the passive.

Iskiab

KatySpirit wrote: »

As a nightblade healer who cannot wear 5 heavy armor for the armor skill, I do appreciate having access to major ward/resolve from my class skills. All other classes of healers have these buffs as well, and I would rather it not be removed from nightblade's skill-related buffs. If it is abused in PVP, moving the damage skill to a skill line that does not have this buff is preferred to removing the passive.

Agreed 1000%. I’m still trying to figure out why NBs are asking for a nerf to their own class.

If you’re a person who can’t see how bad it would be if concealed was moved to the assassination line, or if we lost a skill slot and had to burn a skill slot for major ward and resolve, please stop posting!

Like seriously, just stop. Let the people who understand things a little better make suggestions that aren’t large nerfs.

This would be a nerf for pve and pvp. If you think a pve guild cares more about a small crit buff then being unable to use a class they get one shot by mechanics you’re wrong.

twing1_

Iskiab wrote: »

KatySpirit wrote: »

As a nightblade healer who cannot wear 5 heavy armor for the armor skill, I do appreciate having access to major ward/resolve from my class skills. All other classes of healers have these buffs as well, and I would rather it not be removed from nightblade's skill-related buffs. If it is abused in PVP, moving the damage skill to a skill line that does not have this buff is preferred to removing the passive.

Agreed 1000%. I’m still trying to figure out why NBs are asking for a nerf to their own class.

If you’re a person who can’t see how bad it would be if concealed was moved to the assassination line, or if we lost a skill slot and had to burn a skill slot for major ward and resolve, please stop posting!

Like seriously, just stop. Let the people who understand things a little better make suggestions that aren’t large nerfs.

Moving veiled strike and its morphs out of the shadow skill tree is warranted. It is a considerable nerf, but it is justified.

All classes (other than nb) periodically must go on the defensive to, well, keep up their defenses. In most cases, this just means casting a skill for a ~20 second duration of major ward/resolve. NB is the only class that receives this buff passively (and for free) inherent in spamming their class single target damage attack.

This encourages them to continually attack and pressure enemies, which tends to be more associated with the brawler style of gameplay rather than the rogue/assassin (which nightblades are most associated with).

Classic NB (rogue style of play) should be regarded as opportunistic, and should capitalize off of short durations of offense (burst, which is already their forte) followed by a short duration of going on the defensive to set up their next offensive burst (usually facilitated by cloaking, which also grants major ward/resolve).

The brawler style of play for NB can still be achievable through the upkeep of other defensive buffs (specifically dark cloak for the continued healing) that should be kept up at all times, and is further facilitated by shadow barrier scaling positively with the number of pieces of heavy armor the user is wearing.

Surprise attack was admittedly stacked (giving major ward/resolve, major fracture, and also very strong burst damage), but limiting the offensive capabilities of this skill was the wrong way to go about it (and goes completely against the class's identity). It limits the damage potential of the class in favor of sustained defense, which directly contradicts not only NB being emphasized as a high offense/low defense class, but also the NB's class identity as rogues/assassins (as opposed to brawlers).

If the defensive portion of the skill were instead removed and it were allowed to keep all of its offensive components, it would be rewarding to the assassin/rogue playstyles and fit in nicely with the high risk/high reward theme of the class. It would also leave the less traditional NB brawler playstyles relatively unharmed, due to the duration of ward/resolve scaling with heavy armor.

Iskiab

No. All moving this ability will do is push NBs further towards the ganking playstyle.

I’ve never seen a good brawler magblade or stamblade. Until I do I call shenanigans on it even being a concern. Survivability is everybody’s main concern unless you’re a ganker, asking for a dumb nerf is dumb.

A lot of NBs don’t pvp at a high level so are content being in cloak half the time. Those that do and fight against people who use detect pots, leash and aoes would be needlessly nerfed.

It’ll just push NB moreso towards the noob pvp class.