NB Changes v5.0.1: Problem Areas and Potential Solutions

Runefang

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

A very detailed analysis.
I mostly agree with you except on Minor Vulnerability to Mark Target. This skill would bring too much uptime to your trial group at very little cost. Not even saying it would completely push out Infallible Aether set.

I’ve been hearing that IA now requires a full heavy attack on PTS (not just a tick of a Channeled lightning or Resto heavy). If this is the case it’s already dead. No healer will skip 2 skills every 10s to channel a full heavy attack.

Mark target would be an interesting replacement for applying minor vuln. It would go a long way toward making Nightblade healing desirable. Making someone leave the group stack and cast teleport strike every 8s just sounds like awful gameplay. The other options would be stacking Lightning damage and enchants, having several people with Elemental Weapon, or having 1-2 DPS with Perfected Asylum staves.

Has anybody been able to confirm that? I agree that it should work that way. It'd be nice to see DD sets running by DDs, not support roles.

Revokus

Soul harvest still has major defile. I say melee mageblade is getting stronger finally. New powerful dots and they want you to use path of darkness to escape before using double take(new name too long) and then use cloak which is cool I think.

JinxxND

The problem with melee magblade at the moment there is no real incentive for the play style, they put themselves at risk of more harm then the typical ranged magblade. The range magblade has access to all the same abilities and more damage with destruction staff light attack weave, if they added major breach to concealed weapon which is also the major armor buff that might make the higher risk higher reward play style more viable also figuring out a viable rework for grim focus which is always dodged at close range since the cast time was added even though it seems the skill is now intended to provide a heal in melee range.

I like the idea that was brought up with grim focus and it's morphs giving major sorcery/major brutality respectively and possibly bringing back minor endurance and minor intellect to the respective morphs would make at least slotting the skill a thought even though the heal with the 7 meter range is going to be extremely unreliable as is.

Bazeric

Revokus wrote: »

Soul harvest still has major defile. I say melee mageblade is getting stronger finally. New powerful dots and they want you to use path of darkness to escape before using double take(new name too long) and then use cloak which is cool I think.

Nothing like a big old ground patch of bright AOE to signal I've run this way.

Revokus

JinxxND wrote: »

The problem with melee magblade at the moment there is no real incentive for the play style, they put themselves at risk of more harm then the typical ranged magblade. The range magblade has access to all the same abilities and more damage with destruction staff light attack weave, if they added major breach to concealed weapon which is also the major armor buff that might make the higher risk higher reward play style more viable also figuring out a viable rework for grim focus which is always dodged at close range since the cast time was added even though it seems the skill is now intended to provide a heal in melee range.

I like the idea that was brought up with grim focus and it's morphs giving major sorcery/major brutality respectively and possibly bringing back minor endurance and minor intellect to the respective morphs would make at least slotting the skill a thought even though the heal with the 7 meter range is going to be extremely unreliable as is.

Yeah maybe they want you to use piercing mark too Maybe we need to wait for a melee magicka weapon.. a staff in close range or physical damage dual wield is wrong.

Revokus

Bazeric wrote: »

Revokus wrote: »

Soul harvest still has major defile. I say melee mageblade is getting stronger finally. New powerful dots and they want you to use path of darkness to escape before using double take(new name too long) and then use cloak which is cool I think.

Nothing like a big old ground patch of bright AOE to signal I've run this way.

Lol or RaT

JinxxND

Melee magblade with a 2h/dual wield/sword and board with concealed weapon could become viable with grim focus rework. If concealed applied major breach and magblade got a self buffed major sorcery through merciless resolve and it became a consistent form of a heal like it seems to be intended but unfortunately executed poorly, the 2h/dual wield/or even sword and board with the heavy attacks for stamina return and getting the damage needed in melee with major breach I think it would become very viable. A lot of times magicka classes die especially melee based ones is because they are unable to cc break after being drained of stamina.

It would be similar to how mDK's already run sword and board with destruction staff but with a nightblade twist but once again that would require a serious rework of grim focus and getting the heal back consistently and having the damage with major breach on concealed on an already squishy class.

Roboplus

twing1_ wrote: »

You have a fair point about vulnerability. But right now, in trials, NB aren't contributing anything to group utility. Dk have engulfing, templar have potl (minor fracture/breach), wardens have toughness, sorc provides an extra synergy. Maybe vulnerability should be the NB thing.

That wouldn't change anything, other than make mark target a weaker move in PvP (and cripple piercing mark). Even without IA, a difference of 80% to 100% uptime on minor vulnerability wouldn't be enough to make NBs valued as tanks or healers in trials versus their contemporaries.

The reason DK and Wardens are valued is because they provide powerful effects that can't be acquired elsewhere (or in the case of minor toughness/warrior-poet, isn't worth equipping in group content). And magplars, along with templar tanks/healers, have an extra synergy like magsorcs/sorctank/sorchealer, plus PotL.

Whatever NB and Sorcerers get needs to be something that can't be easily replaced, or that's presence isn't already assumed. Something that would be primarily applied by tanks and healers, but could also be slotted on a dps if necessary.

AoE minor evasion would be perfect for NB. Blur, cloak, malevolent, and path would all be perfect triggers (provided that, especially for malevolent and path, they're additional AoE effects and don't require direct aiming).
If surprise attack worked from the front and caused enemies to take more damage from physical attacks, instead of a percent physical resist debuff, that would have parallels to engulfing.
If they wanted to gut/rework warhorn (the way they removed its max health boost) they could take the AoE max stamina/magicka buffs from that and apply them to NB/Sorc.

fred4

The attraction to melee magblade in all patches up to the current live patch has been it's viability against DKs, both in terms of having unreflectable attacks and getting out of talons with Forward Momentum. As someone who enjoys this playstyle I also value the added speed in cloak, which I find helpful in combat and a major quality of life boon outside of combat.

The Concealed speed buff is unique and stacks with Major Expedition, which means cloaking magblades can roughly match sprinting or dodge rolling stamina players. Actually, they can't, because they don't have medium armor passives, so in fact they rely on stacking other sources of speed (Steed, Swift, sometimes Major Expedition), so that they can make Concealed actually hit people. I am very concerned every time I see reworks of that skill being bandied about without any mention of this. As someone who plays this playstyle, please take it from me. The unique speed buff (NOT Major / Minor Epedition) is more valuable than Major Breech would be in PvP.

I use Caluurion and Zaan. In the current live patch, this is neither as strong nor as consistent as a stamblade specced for damage with Spriggan / Bone Pirate. From that point of view, I would welcome the addition of Major Breech. However stamblades are being nerfed. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't have to be. The changes to Lotus Fan are already buffing melee magblade.

As a side note, leaving Major Expedition on Path is utterly stupid. That's the one skill for which it never made much sense in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, it should stay on Cripple to enable the kiting playstyle. Who ever complained that Cripple was the deciding factor in winning or losing a fight? It's a good skill on live, but not OP as far as I can see.

fred4

JinxxND wrote: »

Melee magblade with a 2h/dual wield/sword and board with concealed weapon could become viable with grim focus rework. If concealed applied major breach and magblade got a self buffed major sorcery through merciless resolve and it became a consistent form of a heal like it seems to be intended but unfortunately executed poorly, the 2h/dual wield/or even sword and board with the heavy attacks for stamina return and getting the damage needed in melee with major breach I think it would become very viable. A lot of times magicka classes die especially melee based ones is because they are unable to cc break after being drained of stamina.

It would be similar to how mDK's already run sword and board with destruction staff but with a nightblade twist but once again that would require a serious rework of grim focus and getting the heal back consistently and having the damage with major breach on concealed on an already squishy class.

I play 2H / resto melee magblade on live. It's viable, but I very much look forward to getting root / snare immunity without 2H, so I can increase my light attack damage by using a destro staff.

Getting stamina back from heavy attacks on a magblade sounds nice but is diabolical in practice. Heavy attacks are slow, don't do any damage and can miss. That's a serious issue when your stamina is frequently so low that a single CC would kill you. In order to keep it up, you'd have to heavy attack as soon as your stamina is merely half empty. You cannot afford that, as the heavy attacks have virtually no combat value. A stamina character does not have these problems. In my experience it is far better to rely on:

(A) Cloak away and meditate.
(B) Immovability or tri-pots.

Neither Amber Plasm (on it's own) nor Leeching Strikes nor melee heavy attacks comes close to meditate, IMO. Leeching Strikes nerfs your healing due to using weapon crit for the heals. The reason you die to being out of stamina as a magblade is that you overextended. Most of the time, when you are not focused, you are in control of the fight and can always cloak behind an obstacle or even just get some distance and meditate. Your small stamina pool comes back within a few seconds with that skill.

twing1_

Roboplus wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

You have a fair point about vulnerability. But right now, in trials, NB aren't contributing anything to group utility. Dk have engulfing, templar have potl (minor fracture/breach), wardens have toughness, sorc provides an extra synergy. Maybe vulnerability should be the NB thing.

That wouldn't change anything, other than make mark target a weaker move in PvP (and cripple piercing mark). Even without IA, a difference of 80% to 100% uptime on minor vulnerability wouldn't be enough to make NBs valued as tanks or healers in trials versus their contemporaries.

The reason DK and Wardens are valued is because they provide powerful effects that can't be acquired elsewhere (or in the case of minor toughness/warrior-poet, isn't worth equipping in group content). And magplars, along with templar tanks/healers, have an extra synergy like magsorcs/sorctank/sorchealer, plus PotL.

Whatever NB and Sorcerers get needs to be something that can't be easily replaced, or that's presence isn't already assumed. Something that would be primarily applied by tanks and healers, but could also be slotted on a dps if necessary.

AoE minor evasion would be perfect for NB. Blur, cloak, malevolent, and path would all be perfect triggers (provided that, especially for malevolent and path, they're additional AoE effects and don't require direct aiming).
If surprise attack worked from the front and caused enemies to take more damage from physical attacks, instead of a percent physical resist debuff, that would have parallels to engulfing.
If they wanted to gut/rework warhorn (the way they removed its max health boost) they could take the AoE max stamina/magicka buffs from that and apply them to NB/Sorc.

Vulnerability on mark would actually buff it in PvP. It actually does very slightly more damage than fracture/breach, and it's less common. You can get major fracture/breach more easily from other sources too.

I don't know how replacing major fracture/breach with vulnerability would cripple piercing mark, as it would otherwise stay the same.

ftballjj20

Zos hire this guy @twing1_

thankyourat

Lotus fan is going to have to be strong because if it's not most players aren't going to put it on their bar. If minor vulnerability is removed from lotus fan I'll never use the ability because not only does it only do average damage you open yourself up for burst combos whenever you gap close.

My problem with the direction they are taking magblade is that there is no way to make a functional build and include all the buffs you need. Now I need to slot path, double take and cripple to have major expedition and a dot instead of just cripple and double take because path is my only access to a speed buff. Or I need to slot grim focus, and lotus fan to get the 8% damage buff when on live all I need is grim focus. These changes are killing bar space and not all the abilities are going to fit on your bar as well as the abilities are all over the place and don't mix for a functional build.

I understand they thought the nightblade toolkit was overloaded but if that's the case why is magblade so bad on live. Now magblade is going to play completely different next update. What was the point of so many drastic changes. I've come up with a melee magblade build that I think will be playable next patch, but I'm still going to have to give up elemental drain. So I'm going to have a overall damage nerf on a class that already has easily avoidable damage.

JinxxND

It wouldn't cripple mark target but it would give it some use as it's not used because at the moment surprise attack applies major fracture and major armor buffs for staying in combat and can be applied on the fly in fast combat to multiple people and allows a stamina nightblade to switch targets at will and debuff them since it's coming from stamina nightblades primary resource in stamina. On the PTS a stamina nightblade cannot switch targets constantly with the flow of fast combat while having to balance fear, cloak, and mark target among many other magicka utility skills while having to worry about variables such as having to switch to a priority target in fast combat to a more deadly dps priority target, switching to a healer purging the debuff and having to reapply it with an already limited magicka pool only to have them purge it again, using fear for a cc, cloak etc.

With minor vulnerability on mark target you have the option of using the skill both on magblade or stamblade if you want to really prioritize dps along with each respective debuffs already coming from surprise attack with stamina or elemental drain with magicka or not and not have to worry about an extremely tight magicka pool on stamina nightblade or bar space on a magicka nightblade.

Right now with minor vulnerability on teleport strike it pigeon holes stamina nightblade into running that specific gap closer for the debuff or a magicka nightblade to go into melee as a ranged class when the gap closer already has it's utility uses as is for both sides respectively. Magicka having the aoe dot attached to it along with a gap closer option that applies a snare and stamina having a gap closer that by passes immobilization especially in this snare meta with charged ice staves and the like along with empowering your next light attack before next skill.

Only magicka nightblades using a gap closer the very few and rare melee magblades. Most magicka nightblades are ranged because it has the most upside with the current meta and class skills, and stamina nightblades have access to cheaper gap closers that can also be associated with special weapon like Maelstrom/Blackrose etc. and apply weapon enchant's/poisons etc.

Also something brought up was concealed weapon possibly getting access to major breach which would open that avenue up for melee magicka nightblades while allowing the ranged ones to continue to use elemental drain.

fred4

thankyourat wrote: »

My problem with the direction they are taking magblade is that there is no way to make a functional build and include all the buffs you need.

I was going to say exactly that in another thread, but then I got to thinking that this is not the way ZOS see it. I think it's precisely their intention that you cannot avail of all buffs, but that you must choose. Warden already has this problem. People complained that it has access to all these buffs, when the class was released, but in reality you can't stack all of them for lack of bar space.

The problems that I see include:

(a) What you are saying is correct. If you cannot slot all buffs, will the class be strong enough, given that it has been weak on live?

(b) It was already the case that you could trade one damage buff for another for lack of bar space, such as Major Sorcery vs. Minor Berserk vs., say, Major Prophecy (Magelight). Now we also have Minor Vulnerability. It's 6 vs half a dozen of the other. It's all stuff that doesn't really affect how the class plays, as you're mainly just trading one damage buff for another. I'd even argue that using Double Take vs Forward Momentum vs Race Against Time will not feel substantially different, even as it fine tunes your build in one direction or another.

(c) If it's clear they nerfed stamblade, I fail to see their vision for magblade. They don't want to overload skills, hence nerfed Cripple yet again, but they are buffing the crap out of Lotus Fan. That seems inconsistent. It incentivises melee magblades, but seems more like a kneejerk reaction to the (lack of) popularity of that playstyle, and that skill, but not dictated by how the balance actually is. I play melee magblade. It IMO requires a specific setup (Caluurion + Zaan), then it's quite strong. I think part of the issue is that not everyone has access to those sets to try them. Many don't enjoy grinding. It takes faith.

(d) That said, the real problem with melee magblade is the lack of defenses. This is why people typically dismiss it. It's too squishy. It cannot be taken into melee range. It will die to AOEs. If ZOS wanted to make melee magblade more viable in the eyes of most people, they should probably address that, rather than buffing the crap out of Lotus Fan damage.

The more I play the class - having recently committed to playing my melee magblade exclusively - the more I think the above is hogwash, though. It's true that magblade defenses were heavily impacted by the Murkmire shield and Healing Ward changes and by the gradual destruction of Strife healing and the Cloak crit changes, before that. If you think you can play a light armor melee magblade like a light armor magplar or warden in a brawl, you will probably fail in either the defense, damage or sustain department. Pick two, but you can't have three. However, what those other classes don't have is the unique synergy between cloak and speed and the synergy between Lotus Fan, Cloak and Caluurion. Zaan is the icing on the cake and fits in perfectly with a melee speed build. Melee magblade plays differently. It plays like a stamblade where you use a snare removal skill (currently Forward Momentum) instead of Shuffle, shields / Healing Ward instead of dodge roll, and your greater cloak sustain and speed.

Do not expect your shields to have any lasting benefit, like those of sorc, who has time to burst people while shielded. It will not work, unless your opponents are very weak. Instead, your objective should always be to weave in and out of cloak, making use of the Concealed stun and gaining control over the Caluurion proc. Your must aim to avoid damage by cloaking a lot, just like a stamblade would by rolling a lot. Your shields are only there to get you out of a jam. If you sense that someone has used a detection potion, shield, LoS and back off. Shields are only there to stave off death until speed and cloak saves you. (I play without the shade, by the way, which would be another option).

Narvuntien

Grim Focus wants you to light attack so... it should increase the damage of your light attacks as a buff.

I agree, having a skill that does nothing until you charge it up just sucks in this game why is it even there.

The source of brutality/sorcery in the nightblades kit is sap essence no need to add it to grim focus.

The vulnerability on Mark target seems like a good idea to me or the bezerk move to it. It warns a target in PVP and is useable in PVE and putting it on Mark Target would be good for NB healers.

JinxxND

Right now the biggest thing that needs change from the PTS is major fracture being given back to surprise attack and moving minor vulnerability to mark target to avoid redundancies in the nightblade kit while retaining all the functionality that is on nightblade. Even if they don't change incap to something that works such as removing the stun as I suggested and bringing back the major defile with a passive utility such a major savagery while slotted, the stamina morph will then be useless as for aoe damage and stun your are already using dawnbreaker and for single target the magicka morph even with the slightly less initial damage then the current iteration of incap, it applies more overall pressure and damage because of the major defile making the stamina morph of the ultimate useless with minor mangle which is not only a terrible debuff it doesn't even apply properly.

JinxxND

Grim Focus just needs to be completely reworked and there needs to be some kinda of goal with the skill. Right now it seems they want to make it goal healing while in melee distance only which doesn't work because since they added the cast time to it, it is always dodged in the 7 meter range making it not only an extremely inconsistent way of getting a burst heal the heal doesn't scale well after battle spirit and this skill is now the only skill in the game that does not give anything back to the user upon the initial cast for a buff. To gain the benefit from this skill, the user has sacrifice 2 GCD as pointed out by the thread creator and also deplete your resources twice while creating 5 stacks of the skill. No other skill in the game does this making it useless and not worth slotting.

Mentioned was bringing major brutality/major sorcery to this skill and I think bringing back minor endurance and giving the magicka morph possibly minor intellect would at least make the skill give buffs upon initial cast even though getting a poor heal back if the skill even manages to land with it's current cast time and after conditions like battle spirit would at least possibly warrant it being slotted.

Jeezye

Actually you I think you guys are discussing the completely wrong skills for magblade balancing. Damage has never been the problem, maybe reliability due to dodges and reflects, but the main issue has been survivability for many patches now.

Screw mark target/ambush/grim focus, what we really need is reliable healing through strife + morphs, sap essence and maybe a reliable burst heal through the new grim focus.

I created a whole post advertising the need to detach the healing of those abilities from their damage done and apply separate healing instances to their user that aren’t diminished by your targets mitigation.

This would truely solve magblade survivability, I can already pressure most players on live if I wasn’t forced into defense with every tickle

JinxxND

Jeezye wrote: »

Actually you I think you guys are discussing the completely wrong skills for magblade balancing. Damage has never been the problem, maybe reliability due to dodges and reflects, but the main issue has been survivability for many patches now.

Screw mark target/ambush/grim focus, what we really need is reliable healing through strife + morphs, sap essence and maybe a reliable burst heal through the new grim focus.

I created a whole post advertising the need to detach the healing of those abilities from their damage done and apply separate healing instances to their user that aren’t diminished by your targets mitigation.

This would truely solve magblade survivability, I can already pressure most players on live if I wasn’t forced into defense with every tickle

Damage isn't the issue on magblade or any light armor based class because the pen on light armor passives but stuff like minor vulnerability on a melee gap closer doesn't help help that issue of your survival, where mark target getting the option of a debuff on a range skill would open up another avenue for damage and healing upon kill of the target adding to your toolkit. You would have the option of increased damage and if the target dies you get 40% or 60% healing (after battle spirit) depending on which morph you took along with major berserk if you took reapers mark. Another form of healing for you while you already have access to major breach with the destruction staff.

It's not the final solution to making more magblade viable in PvP but it definitely helps the class both magicka and stamina in positive ways while going with ZOS goal of removing redundancies in the nightblade kit while going with the functionality of the class.

fred4

Jeezye wrote: »

Actually you I think you guys are discussing the completely wrong skills for magblade balancing. Damage has never been the problem, maybe reliability due to dodges and reflects, but the main issue has been survivability for many patches now.

Screw mark target/ambush/grim focus, what we really need is reliable healing through strife + morphs, sap essence and maybe a reliable burst heal through the new grim focus.

I created a whole post advertising the need to detach the healing of those abilities from their damage done and apply separate healing instances to their user that aren’t diminished by your targets mitigation.

This would truely solve magblade survivability, I can already pressure most players on live if I wasn’t forced into defense with every tickle

I would agree, but I also feel a little sad about this idea, since it's another homogenisation, bringing healing mechanics in line with wardens and stamsorcs. There was a time when Funnel Health was insanely OP, because it double dipped in crit and you could initialise the heal for the whole subsequent fight from your first attack. This was surely unintended / a bug and hence that was the reason it was fixed. It was the beginning of a long line of reasonable fixes that ultimately turned out to be flawed thinking when you look at the sorry state of the skill now. Back then you could initialise your Funnel heal on an IC mob from a guaranteed crit and get healing ticks up to about 8K for you and your buddy.

What gives me pause about your proposal is it's impact on PvE. There is an interesting dynamic in IC, more so with magplar. When they attack the set of 3 flag guards with Sweeps, they become virtually invincible due to the healing they generate from that. My magplar was continuously sniped, once, to no effect.

Jeezye

fred4 wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Actually you I think you guys are discussing the completely wrong skills for magblade balancing. Damage has never been the problem, maybe reliability due to dodges and reflects, but the main issue has been survivability for many patches now.

Screw mark target/ambush/grim focus, what we really need is reliable healing through strife + morphs, sap essence and maybe a reliable burst heal through the new grim focus.

I created a whole post advertising the need to detach the healing of those abilities from their damage done and apply separate healing instances to their user that aren’t diminished by your targets mitigation.

This would truely solve magblade survivability, I can already pressure most players on live if I wasn’t forced into defense with every tickle

I would agree, but I also feel a little sad about this idea, since it's another homogenisation, bringing healing mechanics in line with wardens and stamsorcs. There was a time when Funnel Health was insanely OP, because it double dipped in crit and you could initialise the heal for the whole subsequent fight from your first attack. This was surely unintended / a bug and hence that was the reason it was fixed. It was the beginning of a long line of reasonable fixes that ultimately turned out to be flawed thinking when you look at the sorry state of the skill now. Back then you could initialise your Funnel heal on an IC mob from a guaranteed crit and get healing ticks up to about 8K for you and your buddy.

What gives me pause about your proposal is it's impact on PvE. There is an interesting dynamic in IC, more so with magplar. When they attack the set of 3 flag guards with Sweeps, they become virtually invincible due to the healing they generate from that. My magplar was continuously sniped, once, to no effect.

Actually this change would lower the ceiling for PvE Magblades because they can no longer benefit from external offensive buffs to push their damage and therefore healing, plus the healing component does no longer double dip from critdamage as you have pointed out. It'll result in more consistent healing which only scales with max mag/spell dmg and healing multipliers instead of offensive buffs and penetration.

PvE will loose some of their OP survivability while PvP will get a higher overall value and uptime. Sounds reasonable to me.

fred4

It all depends on the healing value. Strife already no longer double dips in crit, btw. My survivability against an IC boss is by no means OP from Swallow Soul alone.

Olupajmibanan

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

A very detailed analysis.
I mostly agree with you except on Minor Vulnerability to Mark Target. This skill would bring too much uptime to your trial group at very little cost. Not even saying it would completely push out Infallible Aether set.

I’ve been hearing that IA now requires a full heavy attack on PTS (not just a tick of a Channeled lightning or Resto heavy). If this is the case it’s already dead. No healer will skip 2 skills every 10s to channel a full heavy attack.

Mark target would be an interesting replacement for applying minor vuln. It would go a long way toward making Nightblade healing desirable. Making someone leave the group stack and cast teleport strike every 8s just sounds like awful gameplay. The other options would be stacking Lightning damage and enchants, having several people with Elemental Weapon, or having 1-2 DPS with Perfected Asylum staves.

Tested on PTS. Minor Vulnerability from Infallible Aether is still applied on the first tick of lightning or resto heavy attack.

Jeezye

fred4 wrote: »

It all depends on the healing value. Strife already no longer double dips in crit, btw. My survivability against an IC boss is by no means OP from Swallow Soul alone.

According to TT values the heal from a 10k TT sould be 0.5*0.4 = 2k in PvP. I guess this is also an acceptable value, taking healing multiplicators into account. However, since target mitigation greatly reduces this effect, the actual healin I frequently get on live is more like 1,2-1,8k (including multipliers!). So detaching would result in much more reliable healing while PvE Magblade with up to 30k swallow crits can no longer heal for absurd amounts.

KatySpirit

mb10 wrote: »

NB really suffers with group play utility.

Its the one class thats absolutely not needed in a group at all as it practically brings nothing to the table.
Doesnt help team mates, doesnt buff or debuff groups and the AoE attacks are weak + very expensive to cast

This! The only frequent (useful) buff they offer is limited to stamina DPS, and while they have a variety of debuffs, most are repetitive or hard to keep up AND are being stripped away. The only good group buff for everyone they have is in an ultimate and only works when people stack in a tiny place. They also are the only class that cannot give allies a synergy via a class skill without using an ultimate. As a NB healer, I cannot just place Veil of Blades or Soul Tether by the tank from a safe distance either I need to run up and basically hug the tank to drop it and I would rather use my ult for warn horn. This is a very overlooked problem with this entire class.

Their AOE skills also really need to do more damage. Twisting path does very little damage compared to lightning splash, and refreshing path no longer does damage while templar's much larger AOE heal-over-time has a damage morph and grants a synergy that heals+purges negative effects. I love sorc's and templar's skills, don't change them that isn't why I mentioned them DO NOT NERF THEM, but buff NB's a little. Path doesn't even have a synergy, is fairly small, and it cannot be placed at range... why does it do so little damage? Is this because it grants major expedition as their only other group buff? Because I'd trade that out for more damage on BOTH morphs.

Apxac

twing1_ wrote: »

TL;DR

Problem: grim focus is lacking functionality
Solution: grim focus should grant major brutality/sorcery. Drain power would lose major brutality/sorcery.

Problem: mark target is lacking functionality.
Solution: mark target should grant minor vulnerability instead of major fracture/breach. Teleport strike would lose minor vulnerability.

Problem: lotus fan is overloaded with functionality.
Solution: teleport strike should lose minor vulnerability. Ambush morph should stun the enemy, even if they are a player.

Problem: incapacitating strike is lacking functionality, on account of minor mangle having very limited usefulness.
Solution: incapacitating strike should lose minor mangle, but stun at the base ability cost of 70 ultimate (instead of 120 ultimate)

Problem: veiled strike is granting too much defense and not enough offense for an offensive spammable.
Solution: veiled strike should be moved to the assassination skill tree, and blur should take its place in the shadow skill tree. Surprise attack should be given major fracture, concealed weapon should be given major breach

I understand why ZOS is rebalancing the NB class. I also agree with their stated goals in Update 22 Combat Direction. And, for the most part, they have been pretty good at working toward those goals in their most recent changes. But the class is nowhere near done, in my opinion. There are a few aspects of the class that still need work, and the following is my detailed explanation of why, followed by some potential solutions to how they could be resolved.

Goals of Class Rebalance, According to Update 22 Combat Direction
1. Eliminate redundancy in class toolkit. If one skill grants a certain function (ex/ major expedition), no other skill within the same class should also grant that function.
2. Redistribute skill functionality. Some skills have too much functionality, while others have too little. The goal is to try to balance functionality between individual skills.

The State of the NB Class as of v5.0.1
1. Redundancy has been resolved. With the removal of fracture from surprise attack, expedition from cripple and double take, and maim from mass hysteria, there are no more instances of multiple NB class skills granting the same function.
2. Functionality between class skills is still not balanced. Some issues of overloaded functionality have been resolved (ex/ surprise attack losing major fracture, incapacitating strike losing major defile, grim focus losing minor berserk and minor endurance), but others still exist (or in some cases have been introduced). Other skills have gained much needed functionality (double take receiving snare removal and immunity), but some others are still underwhelming. I will address these individual cases in detail, which brings me to:

Problem Areas within the NB Class as of v5.0.1
1. Grim Focus and it's morphs is lacking functionality. With the removal of berserk and endurance, this skill is now the only skill in the game (accross all classes) that does not give anything back to the user upon the initial cast. 100% of the functionality of this skill is reliant on the user activating the ability (for resource cost), successfully landing 5 light attacks on an enemy, and then activating the ability again (for more resource cost). To gain the benefit of this skill, the user must sacrifice 2 GCD and also deplete their resources twice, all the while adhering to the skill's complex conditional of landing 5 successful light attacks. No other skill in the game does this. Its an empty skill. Relative to the cost and functionality of other skills in the NB toolkit, this one is severely lacking.
2. Mark Target and its morphs is still lacking functionality. To bump up the relative functionality of Mark Target, major fracture was removed from surprise attack, leaving Mark as the only armor debuff in the NB toolkit. This, however, does not increase the value of the skill on its own, especially when compared to similar skills like elemental drain. Both of these skills provide a major debuff to the enemy's armor, can be used at range, and have similar durations. Mark target costs resources though, where elemental drain does not. Mark target can be applied to only one target, while elemental drain can be applied to many. Mark target's additional functionality (a heal when the marked target dies) relies on a conditional, while elemental drain's magicka steal does not. For the added inconvenience Mark Target brings in comparison to elemental drain, it's benefit is extremely underwhelming.
3. Lotus Fan (morph of Teleport Strike) is overloaded in functionality. This skill acts as a gap closer, applies minor vulnerability to the enemy, snares the enemy, and provides a very strong AoE DoT. Compare this to cripple, which is only a single target DoT and immobilize (half of what Lotus Fan is), and the imbalance in functionality becomes clear.
4. Incapacitating Strike is lacking functionality. Right now, minor mangle is being applied after the damage portion of incapacitating strike. In PvP, this means that after using incap on an enemy, mangle is reducing their max hp by 10%, but this 10% of their hp has already been lost due to the damage of incap itself or the damage of other skills used before incap in combo. It is contributing nothing in PvP. In PvE, mangle can be useful for eliminating potentially millions of hp from enemy bosses. But this is only the case with 100% uptime, and this is not achievable given the ultimate cost and short duration of mangle provided by incapacitating strike. Minor mangle is adding virtually nothing to the skill, leaving the only difference between Incapacitating Strike and the base skill, Death Stroke, to be that for increased ultimate cost the ability stuns the enemy. Compare this to the other morph, soul harvest, which gains major defile and also ultimate generation for killing enemies and incap becomes extremely underwhelming. If you compare incap to dawn breaker (which costs only 5 ultimate more), the skill becomes even more underwhelming. Dawn breaker does everything incap does (for a similar cost), but acts as an AoE when incap is single target. The DoT of DB offsets the 20% damage increase of incap. Incapacitating Strike is definitely lacking, especially considering how it is an ultimate ability.
5. Veiled Strike has enough functionality, but it's focus should shift away from defense and toward offense. As a spammable attack, this skill should be used primarily for its offensive capabilities. But as a skill in the shadow tree, it is currently granting the user defensive bonuses in major ward and resolve on account of the shadow barrier passive. With the boost to power extraction's tooltip damage and the removal of fracture from surprise attack, this single target spammable is just barely ahead of the NB AoE spammable in terms of damage output. I find myself primarily using this ability for access to major ward and resolve. This skill should be more oriented toward offense, and not defense.

Potential Solutions
1. Grim Focus and it's morphs should grant major brutality/sorcery. Providing these major buffs would distribute much needed functionality to this skill, while at the same time keeping the overall power of the NB class unchanged because they already have access to these through other skills. To resolve potential redundancy issues, major brutality/sorcery should be removed from drain power and its morphs (which provide enough functionality on their own without these buffs).
2. Mark Target and it's morphs should apply minor vulnerability instead of major fracture and breach. This would provide a very powerful debuff that is capable of stacking with outside sources of fracture and breach, and make the skill a lot more valuable in group play, while keeping almost exactly the same value in solo play. To resolve redundancy issues, minor vulnerability should be removed from Teleport Strike and it's morphs, which brings me to:
3. Teleport Strike should no longer provide minor vulnerability, and the Ambush morph should stun the enemy (even if it is an enemy player). This change would remove some of the functionality from the currently overloaded Lotus Fan, while at the same time keeping the Ambush morph up to speed. The removal of minor vulnerability on this ability opens up the door for minor vulnerability on mark target as well.
4. Incapacitating strike should lose minor mangle and instead stun the enemy at 70 ultimate (the base cost of the ability) instead of 120 ultimate. The loss of mangle wouldn't hurt the skill much (uselessness of mangle outlined above), but it would allow for the price of the stun to be dropped down to the base ability cost in compensation. This way, in comparison to the base skill death stroke, incapacitating strike would flat out gain a stun (without the conditional of a higher cost) which would allow it to compete with soul harvest's major defile and ultimate generation. It would also differentiate it from Dawn breaker, allowing it to be a cheaper, single target alternative.
5. Veiled strike and it's morphs should be moved to the assassination skill tree, and blur and it's morphs should be moved to the shadow skill tree. Then, surprise attack could provide major fracture and concealed weapon could provide major breach. Having major fracture on surprise attack was too strong because, as a shadow skill, surprise attack was also granting the user major ward/resolve on account of the shadow barrier passive. Moving this skill out of the shadow tree would eliminate this defensive bonus, and allow the skill to keep its major armor debuff, emphasizing its offensive capability and highlighting the high risk/high reward playstyle of the NB class. Removing the major resistances from the main spammable attack would force NB to periodically go on the defensive as opposed to continuously attacking, emphasizing their bursty nature. I highly doubt this change has any chance of being implemented, but that's not going to stop me from posting it here as I feel it's the right direction to take the class.


The Effects of these Changes
In PvP, adopting these changes together wouldn't affect the overall power of the NB class, but it would make NB combat flow so much smoother. Right now, NB have too much of a "spin up time" on buffing themselves and debuffing enemy targets to gain maximum damage potential. They are expected to mark the target (for fracture/breach), then open with incap strike (for mangle), or with ambush (for vulnerability), or with drain power (for brutality/sorcery). Placing brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus instead of drain power and minor vulnerability on mark target instead of teleport strike both work toward streamlining the buffing/debuffing process and put less pressure on NB to open up a fight with a specific moveset. By condensing their buffs and debuff into two skills outside of their spammable (grim focus and mark target), it allows for a shorter time and resource investment to reach max damage potential and makes it easier to retain that potential while switching targets. It would also eliminate the opportunity cost of opening up with a specific skill instead of another. I believe these changes would drastically help the flow of NB combat, while both increasing balance between the abilities in the NB toolkit and also maintaining balance between NB and other classes.
On the PvE side of things, these changes would be a drastic boost to NB group utility. Letting mark target grant minor vulnerability would help open the door to NB in support roles (tank/healer). Right now, most healers are running infallible aether for reliable uptime on minor vulnerability. Putting a reliable source of minor vulnerability in the NB toolkit (without the drawback of gap closing to the target) would allow healers to forego infallible aether, and instead wear a different utility set. They still probably wouldn't be 100% meta, but it would definitely boost their competitiveness and finally let them bring something to the table in group play.

Certainly the best changes for the nightblade, BUT, it seems to me that a Major Brutality and Sorcery would be replaced with Savagery and Prophecy, this is a much more valuable buff that would allow more damage. Major Brutality and Sorcery easy to get from other sources. In addition, the shot must be made free. However, more healing is needed for the Magblade, because the developers set us up for a rapprochement, but the stamina has Roll-Dodge, Vigor, Rally, magic has nothing. Healing is extremely small and forces you to use a Swallow Soul, which helps very little, changes in the Cloak do not provide healing and exclude the possibility of a sudden attack, what remains? Use shields? This is often not enough...

kalunte

Apxac wrote: »

However, more healing is needed for the Magblade, because the developers set us up for a rapprochement, but the stamina has Roll-Dodge, Vigor, Rally, magic has nothing. Healing is extremely small and forces you to use a Swallow Soul, which helps very little, changes in the Cloak do not provide healing and exclude the possibility of a sudden attack, what remains? Use shields? This is often not enough...

well, magicka nightblades, like any other magicka user have got the entire restoration staff skill line to have some heal, + light armor shield + the few healings skills NBs have (refhreshing path, swallow soul, malevolent offering, dark cloak, siphoning attacks + conditional healing like mark or passives)

still nightblade skills are both overrated and underperforming when looking at it from a relatively fair point of view.

twing1_ wrote: »

TL;DR

4.If you compare incap to dawn breaker (which costs only 5 ultimate more), the skill becomes even more underwhelming. Dawn breaker does everything incap does (for a similar cost), but acts as an AoE when incap is single target. The DoT of DB offsets the 20% damage increase of incap. Incapacitating Strike is definitely lacking, especially considering how it is an ultimate ability.

like it is being said in the original post, "incap is definatly lacking". still, it got nerfed and DBoS got buffed buy 6% for direct dmg and 9% for the DoT part, with a special thought to Vampire and WW who love DBoS even more.

Nightblades skills are powerfull when it comes to do 1 thing and 1 only. and while veiled strike and morphs was doing a bit too good because it had both offensive and defensive impact, it looks like it is the only skill that act like that to be nerfed.
warden's ult stays barely untouched, boundless storm is being buffed and so on.

also it is often forgoten that nightblades main skills are single target skills, and since they hit 1 target only, are dodge-able, blockable and require some form of aiming in order to hit the right target they HAVE to be more efficient than AOE skills which are unblockable/undodge-able/doesnt require any aiming, and sometimes dont even have limited targets... (rule breaking jokes.)

ps: mass hysteria needs an additional effect. anything but something; it cant just fear and nothing else. or then, let nightblade have only one OP skill to kill anything since they need to slot 9differents skills to have 9differents buffs while other classes can have cookie cuter skills that gives up to 3minor/major buffs on a single icon or grants both defensive and offensive bonuses/damages/heals on the same other button...

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Revokus wrote: »

Soul harvest still has major defile. I say melee mageblade is getting stronger finally. New powerful dots and they want you to use path of darkness to escape before using double take(new name too long) and then use cloak which is cool I think.

Umm... In three global cooldowns to set up an escape (which escape creation comes when we see the advantage we have lost), a Magicka Nightblade is dead. Cool idea... Not cool at all in execution of the escape. Way too clunky and bar heavy. And Mageblade isn't getting stronger... It is literally just not getting their ultimate nerfed as hard as their stamina Nightblade. Getting no nerfs on ultimate does not make a Mageblade stronger, it makes them the same.

Revokus

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Revokus wrote: »

Soul harvest still has major defile. I say melee mageblade is getting stronger finally. New powerful dots and they want you to use path of darkness to escape before using double take(new name too long) and then use cloak which is cool I think.

Umm... In three global cooldowns to set up an escape (which escape creation comes when we see the advantage we have lost), a Magicka Nightblade is dead. Cool idea... Not cool at all in execution of the escape. Way too clunky and bar heavy. And Mageblade isn't getting stronger... It is literally just not getting their ultimate nerfed as hard as their stamina Nightblade. Getting no nerfs on ultimate does not make a Mageblade stronger, it makes them the same.

I agree.. melee mageblade is starting to have too many good offensive abilities but poor defense. I dunno refreshing path could have used the snares immunity upon activation only for yourself while keeping the major expedition and the heal is small in pvp anyway. Or just keeping the expedition on double take with the immunity. Cause everyone will probably use RaT.

I do like the new debilitate tough since melee mageblade never really had good sustain so that’s an option. When you build for sustain on melee mageblade concealed weapon becomes crap damage imo.

Been a long time since I played melee mageblade it was my preferred playstyle. Stopped playing them when they nerfed something about 3 years ago that killed the dual wield resto playstyle..( wow can’t even remember what it was) and always missed that past playstyle. Never liked ranged mageblade too similar to sorc. I did try of course the 2h/resto build that became popular for the snares immunity it was fun but meh it’s not the same fun imo.

The buff to lotus fan is great I think since it was part of old school melee mageblade and now it’s better.

I probably wasn’t clear.. When I say it’s getting stronger I mean the old school abilities like lotus fan and debilitate/grasp sap essence are getting damage buffs so in a sense it’s getting stronger lotus fan upon testing is a damn good dot now. But I understand what you mean.