NB Changes v5.0.1: Problem Areas and Potential Solutions

twing1_ · April 2019

TL;DR

Problem: grim focus is lacking functionality
Solution: grim focus should grant major brutality/sorcery. Drain power would lose major brutality/sorcery.

Problem: mark target is lacking functionality.
Solution: mark target should grant minor vulnerability instead of major fracture/breach. Teleport strike would lose minor vulnerability.

Problem: lotus fan is overloaded with functionality.
Solution: teleport strike should lose minor vulnerability. Ambush morph should stun the enemy, even if they are a player.

Problem: incapacitating strike is lacking functionality, on account of minor mangle having very limited usefulness.
Solution: incapacitating strike should lose minor mangle, but stun at the base ability cost of 70 ultimate (instead of 120 ultimate)

Problem: veiled strike is granting too much defense and not enough offense for an offensive spammable.
Solution: veiled strike should be moved to the assassination skill tree, and blur should take its place in the shadow skill tree. Surprise attack should be given major fracture, concealed weapon should be given major breach

I understand why ZOS is rebalancing the NB class. I also agree with their stated goals in Update 22 Combat Direction. And, for the most part, they have been pretty good at working toward those goals in their most recent changes. But the class is nowhere near done, in my opinion. There are a few aspects of the class that still need work, and the following is my detailed explanation of why, followed by some potential solutions to how they could be resolved.

Goals of Class Rebalance, According to Update 22 Combat Direction
1. Eliminate redundancy in class toolkit. If one skill grants a certain function (ex/ major expedition), no other skill within the same class should also grant that function.
2. Redistribute skill functionality. Some skills have too much functionality, while others have too little. The goal is to try to balance functionality between individual skills.

The State of the NB Class as of v5.0.1
1. Redundancy has been resolved. With the removal of fracture from surprise attack, expedition from cripple and double take, and maim from mass hysteria, there are no more instances of multiple NB class skills granting the same function.
2. Functionality between class skills is still not balanced. Some issues of overloaded functionality have been resolved (ex/ surprise attack losing major fracture, incapacitating strike losing major defile, grim focus losing minor berserk and minor endurance), but others still exist (or in some cases have been introduced). Other skills have gained much needed functionality (double take receiving snare removal and immunity), but some others are still underwhelming. I will address these individual cases in detail, which brings me to:

Problem Areas within the NB Class as of v5.0.1
1. Grim Focus and it's morphs is lacking functionality. With the removal of berserk and endurance, this skill is now the only skill in the game (accross all classes) that does not give anything back to the user upon the initial cast. 100% of the functionality of this skill is reliant on the user activating the ability (for resource cost), successfully landing 5 light attacks on an enemy, and then activating the ability again (for more resource cost). To gain the benefit of this skill, the user must sacrifice 2 GCD and also deplete their resources twice, all the while adhering to the skill's complex conditional of landing 5 successful light attacks. No other skill in the game does this. Its an empty skill. Relative to the cost and functionality of other skills in the NB toolkit, this one is severely lacking.
2. Mark Target and its morphs is still lacking functionality. To bump up the relative functionality of Mark Target, major fracture was removed from surprise attack, leaving Mark as the only armor debuff in the NB toolkit. This, however, does not increase the value of the skill on its own, especially when compared to similar skills like elemental drain. Both of these skills provide a major debuff to the enemy's armor, can be used at range, and have similar durations. Mark target costs resources though, where elemental drain does not. Mark target can be applied to only one target, while elemental drain can be applied to many. Mark target's additional functionality (a heal when the marked target dies) relies on a conditional, while elemental drain's magicka steal does not. For the added inconvenience Mark Target brings in comparison to elemental drain, it's benefit is extremely underwhelming.
3. Lotus Fan (morph of Teleport Strike) is overloaded in functionality. This skill acts as a gap closer, applies minor vulnerability to the enemy, snares the enemy, and provides a very strong AoE DoT. Compare this to cripple, which is only a single target DoT and immobilize (half of what Lotus Fan is), and the imbalance in functionality becomes clear.
4. Incapacitating Strike is lacking functionality. Right now, minor mangle is being applied after the damage portion of incapacitating strike. In PvP, this means that after using incap on an enemy, mangle is reducing their max hp by 10%, but this 10% of their hp has already been lost due to the damage of incap itself or the damage of other skills used before incap in combo. It is contributing nothing in PvP. In PvE, mangle can be useful for eliminating potentially millions of hp from enemy bosses. But this is only the case with 100% uptime, and this is not achievable given the ultimate cost and short duration of mangle provided by incapacitating strike. Minor mangle is adding virtually nothing to the skill, leaving the only difference between Incapacitating Strike and the base skill, Death Stroke, to be that for increased ultimate cost the ability stuns the enemy. Compare this to the other morph, soul harvest, which gains major defile and also ultimate generation for killing enemies and incap becomes extremely underwhelming. If you compare incap to dawn breaker (which costs only 5 ultimate more), the skill becomes even more underwhelming. Dawn breaker does everything incap does (for a similar cost), but acts as an AoE when incap is single target. The DoT of DB offsets the 20% damage increase of incap. Incapacitating Strike is definitely lacking, especially considering how it is an ultimate ability.
5. Veiled Strike has enough functionality, but it's focus should shift away from defense and toward offense. As a spammable attack, this skill should be used primarily for its offensive capabilities. But as a skill in the shadow tree, it is currently granting the user defensive bonuses in major ward and resolve on account of the shadow barrier passive. With the boost to power extraction's tooltip damage and the removal of fracture from surprise attack, this single target spammable is just barely ahead of the NB AoE spammable in terms of damage output. I find myself primarily using this ability for access to major ward and resolve. This skill should be more oriented toward offense, and not defense.

Potential Solutions
1. Grim Focus and it's morphs should grant major brutality/sorcery. Providing these major buffs would distribute much needed functionality to this skill, while at the same time keeping the overall power of the NB class unchanged because they already have access to these through other skills. To resolve potential redundancy issues, major brutality/sorcery should be removed from drain power and its morphs (which provide enough functionality on their own without these buffs).
2. Mark Target and it's morphs should apply minor vulnerability instead of major fracture and breach. This would provide a very powerful debuff that is capable of stacking with outside sources of fracture and breach, and make the skill a lot more valuable in group play, while keeping almost exactly the same value in solo play. To resolve redundancy issues, minor vulnerability should be removed from Teleport Strike and it's morphs, which brings me to:
3. Teleport Strike should no longer provide minor vulnerability, and the Ambush morph should stun the enemy (even if it is an enemy player). This change would remove some of the functionality from the currently overloaded Lotus Fan, while at the same time keeping the Ambush morph up to speed. The removal of minor vulnerability on this ability opens up the door for minor vulnerability on mark target as well.
4. Incapacitating strike should lose minor mangle and instead stun the enemy at 70 ultimate (the base cost of the ability) instead of 120 ultimate. The loss of mangle wouldn't hurt the skill much (uselessness of mangle outlined above), but it would allow for the price of the stun to be dropped down to the base ability cost in compensation. This way, in comparison to the base skill death stroke, incapacitating strike would flat out gain a stun (without the conditional of a higher cost) which would allow it to compete with soul harvest's major defile and ultimate generation. It would also differentiate it from Dawn breaker, allowing it to be a cheaper, single target alternative.
5. Veiled strike and it's morphs should be moved to the assassination skill tree, and blur and it's morphs should be moved to the shadow skill tree. Then, surprise attack could provide major fracture and concealed weapon could provide major breach. Having major fracture on surprise attack was too strong because, as a shadow skill, surprise attack was also granting the user major ward/resolve on account of the shadow barrier passive. Moving this skill out of the shadow tree would eliminate this defensive bonus, and allow the skill to keep its major armor debuff, emphasizing its offensive capability and highlighting the high risk/high reward playstyle of the NB class. Removing the major resistances from the main spammable attack would force NB to periodically go on the defensive as opposed to continuously attacking, emphasizing their bursty nature. I highly doubt this change has any chance of being implemented, but that's not going to stop me from posting it here as I feel it's the right direction to take the class.

The Effects of these Changes
In PvP, adopting these changes together wouldn't affect the overall power of the NB class, but it would make NB combat flow so much smoother. Right now, NB have too much of a "spin up time" on buffing themselves and debuffing enemy targets to gain maximum damage potential. They are expected to mark the target (for fracture/breach), then open with incap strike (for mangle), or with ambush (for vulnerability), or with drain power (for brutality/sorcery). Placing brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus instead of drain power and minor vulnerability on mark target instead of teleport strike both work toward streamlining the buffing/debuffing process and put less pressure on NB to open up a fight with a specific moveset. By condensing their buffs and debuff into two skills outside of their spammable (grim focus and mark target), it allows for a shorter time and resource investment to reach max damage potential and makes it easier to retain that potential while switching targets. It would also eliminate the opportunity cost of opening up with a specific skill instead of another. I believe these changes would drastically help the flow of NB combat, while both increasing balance between the abilities in the NB toolkit and also maintaining balance between NB and other classes.
On the PvE side of things, these changes would be a drastic boost to NB group utility. Letting mark target grant minor vulnerability would help open the door to NB in support roles (tank/healer). Right now, most healers are running infallible aether for reliable uptime on minor vulnerability. Putting a reliable source of minor vulnerability in the NB toolkit (without the drawback of gap closing to the target) would allow healers to forego infallible aether, and instead wear a different utility set. They still probably wouldn't be 100% meta, but it would definitely boost their competitiveness and finally give the NB class a near-exclusive class buff to bring to the table in group play.

Olupajmibanan · April 2019

A very detailed analysis.
I mostly agree with you except on Minor Vulnerability to Mark Target. This skill would bring too much uptime to your trial group at very little cost. Not even saying it would completely push out Infallible Aether set.

Ultionis · April 2019

I could continuously up-vote this post i would!

Cagro · April 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

TL;DR
Problem: grim focus is lacking functionality
Solution: grim focus should grant major brutality/sorcery. Drain power would lose major brutality/sorcery.

Problem: mark target is lacking functionality.
Solution: mark target should grant minor vulnerability instead of major fracture/breach. Teleport strike would lose minor vulnerability.

Problem: lotus fan is overloaded with functionality.
Solution: teleport strike should lose minor vulnerability. Ambush should stun the enemy, even if they are a player.

Problem: incapacitating strike is lacking functionality, on account of minor mangle having very limited usefulness.
Solution: incapacitating strike should lose minor mangle, but stun at the base ability cost of 70 ultimate (instead of 120 ultimate)

Problem: veiled strike is granting too much defense and not enough offense for an offensive spammable.
Solution: veiled strike should be moved to the assassination skill tree, and blur should take its place in the shadow skill tree. Surprise attack should be given major fracture, concealed weapon should be given major breach

I understand why ZOS is rebalancing the NB class. I also agree with their stated goals in Update 22 Combat Direction. And, for the most part, they have been pretty good at working toward those goals in their most recent changes. But the class is nowhere near done, in my opinion. There are a few aspects of the class that still need work, and the following is my detailed explanation of why, followed by some potential solutions to how they could be resolved.

Goals of Class Rebalance, According to Update 22 Combat Direction
1. Eliminate redundancy in class toolkit. If one skill grants a certain function (ex/ major expedition), no other skill in the within the same class should also grant that function.
2. Redistribute skill functionality. Some skills have too much functionality, while others have too little. The goal is to try to balance functionality between individual skills.

The State of the NB Class as of v5.0.1
1. Redundancy has been resolved. With the removal of fracture from surprise attack, expedition from cripple and double take, and maim from mass hysteria, there are no more instances of multiple NB class skills granting the same function.
2. Functionality between class skills is still not balanced. Some issues of overloaded functionality have been resolved (ex/ surprise attack losing major fracture, incapacitating strike losing major defile, grim focus losing minor berserk and minor endurance), but others still exist (or in some cases have been introduced). Other skills have gained much needed functionality (double take receiving snare removal and immunity), but some others are still underwhelming. I will address these individual cases in detail, which brings me to:

Problem Areas within the NB Class as of v5.0.1
1. Grim Focus and it's morphs is lacking functionality. With the removal of berserk and endurance, this skill is now the only skill in the game (accross all classes) that does not give anything back to the user upon the initial cast. 100% of the functionality of this skill is reliant on the user activating the ability (for resource cost), successfully landing 5 light attacks on an enemy, and then activating the ability again (for more resource cost). To gain the benefit of this skill, the user must sacrifice 2 GCD and also deplete their resources twice, all the while adhering to the skill's complex conditional of landing 5 successful light attacks. No other skill in the game does this. Its an empty skill. Relative to the cost and functionality of other skills in the NB toolkit, this one is severely lacking.
2. Mark Target and its morphs is still lacking functionality. To bump up the relative functionality of Mark Target, major fracture was removed from surprise attack, leaving Mark as the only armor debuff in the NB toolkit. This, however, does not increase the value of the skill on its own, especially when compared to similar skills like elemental drain. Both of these skills provide a major debuff to the enemy's armor, can be used at range, and have similar durations. Mark target costs resources though, where elemental drain does not. Mark target can be applied to only one target, while elemental drain can be applied to many. Mark target's additional functionality (a heal when the marked target dies) relies on a conditional, while elemental drain (magicka steal) does not. For the added inconvenience Mark Target brings in comparison to elemental drain, it's benefit is extremely underwhelming.
3. Lotus Fan (morph of Teleport Strike) is overloaded in functionality. This skill acts as a gap closer, applies minor vulnerability to the enemy, immobilizes the enemy, and provides a very strong AoE DoT. Compare this to cripple, which is only a single target DoT and immobilize (half of what Lotus Fan is), and the imbalance in functionality becomes clear.
4. Incapacitating Strike is lacking functionality. Right now, minor mangle is being applied after the damage portion of incapacitating strike. In PvP, this means that after using incap on an enemy, mangle is reducing their max hp by 10%, but this 10% of their hp has already been lost due to the damage of incap itself or the damage of other skills used before incap in combo. It is contributing nothing in PvP. In PvE, mangle can be useful for eliminating potentially millions of hp from enemy bosses. But this is only the case with 100% uptime, and this is not achievable given the ultimate cost and short duration of mangle provided by incapacitating strike. Minor mangle is adding virtually nothing to the skill, leaving the only difference between Incapacitating Strike and the base skill, Death Stroke, to be that for increased ultimate cost the ability stuns the enemy. Compare this to the other morph, soul harvest, which gains major defile and also ultimate generation for killing enemies and Incapacitating Strike is extremely underwhelming. Compare incap to dawn breaker (which costs only 5 ultimate more) and the skill becomes even more underwhelming. Dawn breaker does everything incap does (for a similar cost), but acts as an AoE when incap is single target. The DoT of DB offsets the 20% damage increase of incap. Incapacitating Strike is definitely lacking, especially considering how it is an ultimate ability.
5. Veiled Strike has enough functionality, but it's focus should shift away from defense and toward offense. As a spammable attack, this skill should be used primarily for its offensive capabilities. But as a skill in the shadow tree, it is currently granting the user defensive bonuses in major ward and resolve on account of the shadow barrier passive. With the boost to power extraction's tooltip damage and the removal of fracture from surprise attack, this single target spammable is just barely ahead of the NB AoE spammable in terms of damage output. I find myself primarily using this ability for access to major ward and resolve. This skill should be more oriented toward offense, and not defense.

Potential Solutions
1. Grim Focus and it's morphs should grant major brutality/sorcery. Providing these major buffs would distribute much needed functionality to this skill, while at the same time keeping the overall power of the NB class unchanged because they already have access to these through other skills. To resolve potential redundancy issues, major brutality/sorcery should be removed from drain power and its morphs (which provide enough functionality on their own without these buffs).
2. Mark Target and it's morphs should apply minor vulnerability instead of major fracture and breach. This would provide a very powerful debuff that is capable of stacking with outside sources of fracture and breach, and make the skill a lot more valuable in group play, while keeping almost exactly the same value in solo play. Te resolve redundancy issues, minor vulnerability should be removed from Teleport Strike and it's morphs, which brings me to:
3. Teleport Strike should no longer provide minor vulnerability, and the Ambush morph should stun the enemy (even if it is an enemy player). This change would remove some of the functionality from the currently overloaded Lotus Fan, while at the same time keeping the Ambush morph up to speed. The removal of minor vulnerability on this ability opens up the door for minor vulnerability on mark target as well.
4. Incapacitating strike should lose minor mangle and instead stun the enemy at 70 ultimate (the base cost of the ability) instead of 120 ultimate. The loss of mangle wouldn't hurt the skill much (uselessness of mangle outlined above), but it would allow for the price of the stun to be dropped down to the base ability cost in compensation. This way, in comparison to the base skill death stroke, incapacitating strike would flat out gain a stun (without the conditional of a higher cost) which would allow it olto compete with soul harvest's major defile and ultimate generation. It would also differentiate it from Dawn breaker, allowing it to be a cheaper, single target alternative.
5. Veiled strike and it's morphs should be moved to the assassination skill tree, and blur and it's morphs should be moved to the shadow skill tree. Then, surprise attack could provide major fracture and concealed weapon could provide major breach. Having major fracture on surprise attack was too strong because, as a shadow skill, surprise attack was also granting the user major ward/resolve on account of the shadow barrier passive. Moving this skill out of the shadow tree would eliminate this defensive bonus, and allow the skill to keep its major armor debuff, emphasizing its offensive capability and highlighting the high risk/high reward playstyle of the NB class. Removing the major resistances from the main spammable attack would force NB to periodically go on the defensive vs continuously attacking, emphasizing their bursty nature. I highly doubt this change has any chance of being implemented, but that's not going to stop me from posting it here as I feel it's the right direction to take the class.

The Effects of these Changes
Adopting these changes together wouldn't affect the overall power of the NB class, but it would make NB combat flow so much smoother. Right now, NB have too much of a "spin up time" on buffing themselves and debuffing enemy targets to gain maximum damage potential. They are expected to mark the target (for fracture/breach), then open with incap strike (for mangle), or with ambush (for vulnerability), or with drain power (for brutality/sorcery). Placing brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus instead of drain power and minor vulnerability on mark target instead of teleport strike both work toward streamlining the buffing/debuffing process and put less pressure on NB to open up a fight with a specific moveset. By condensing their buffs and debuff into two skills outside of their spammable (grim focus and mark target), it allows for a shorter time and resource investment to reach max damage potential and makes it easier to retain that potential while switching targets. It would also eliminate the opportunity cost of opening up with a specific skill instead of another. I believe these changes would drastically help the flow of NB combat, while both increasing balance between the abilities in the NB toolkit and also maintaining balance between NB and other classes.

100% agree with everything. This will make both magicka and stamina nightblades more fun to play without making them over powered.

Tasear · April 2019

* Grim focus I agree

* Loctus fan no longer stuns. So not as overloaded

Stun on icap was bad in pvp

Mark Target and minor Vulnerability is bad idea . It makes other uptimes ways of skill bad in comparison

NyassaV · April 2019

Interesting but you lost me when you said Incap is lacking functionality

twing1_ · April 2019

Tasear wrote: »

* Grim focus I agree

* Loctus fan no longer stuns. So not as overloaded

Stun on icap was bad in pvp

Mark Target and minor Vulnerability is bad idea . It makes other uptimes ways of skill bad in comparison

Lotus fan never stunned. It snares for longer instead, as part of its morph effect. To the extent of my knowledge, it still does this on PTS though I may be mistaken. Even if it has been removed, the AoE DoT is sick and it provides more than enough functionality on a gap closer on its own.

Yes, stun on incap was overloaded when the skill also provided major defile. But now that defile has been removed, I think that dropping the cost of the stun wouldn't overload the ability.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

A very detailed analysis.
I mostly agree with you except on Minor Vulnerability to Mark Target. This skill would bring too much uptime to your trial group at very little cost. Not even saying it would completely push out Infallible Aether set.

You have a fair point about vulnerability. But right now, in trials, NB aren't contributing anything to group utility. Dk have engulfing, templar have potl (minor fracture/breach), wardens have toughness, sorc provides an extra synergy. Maybe vulnerability should be the NB thing.

This would replace infallible aether and open up the ability for both hircines and worm to be used in organized trial groups.

WrathOfInnos · April 2019

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

A very detailed analysis.
I mostly agree with you except on Minor Vulnerability to Mark Target. This skill would bring too much uptime to your trial group at very little cost. Not even saying it would completely push out Infallible Aether set.

I’ve been hearing that IA now requires a full heavy attack on PTS (not just a tick of a Channeled lightning or Resto heavy). If this is the case it’s already dead. No healer will skip 2 skills every 10s to channel a full heavy attack.

Mark target would be an interesting replacement for applying minor vuln. It would go a long way toward making Nightblade healing desirable. Making someone leave the group stack and cast teleport strike every 8s just sounds like awful gameplay. The other options would be stacking Lightning damage and enchants, having several people with Elemental Weapon, or having 1-2 DPS with Perfected Asylum staves.

Tasear · April 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

* Grim focus I agree

* Loctus fan no longer stuns. So not as overloaded

Stun on icap was bad in pvp

Mark Target and minor Vulnerability is bad idea . It makes other uptimes ways of skill bad in comparison

Lotus fan never stunned. It snares for longer instead, as part of its morph effect. To the extent of my knowledge, it still does this on PTS though I may be mistaken. Even if it has been removed, the AoE DoT is sick and it provides more than enough functionality on a gap closer on its own.

Yes, stun on incap was overloaded when the skill also provided major defile. But now that defile has been removed, I think that dropping the cost of the stun wouldn't overload the ability.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

A very detailed analysis.
I mostly agree with you except on Minor Vulnerability to Mark Target. This skill would bring too much uptime to your trial group at very little cost. Not even saying it would completely push out Infallible Aether set.

You have a fair point about vulnerability. But right now, in trials, NB aren't contributing anything to group utility. Dk have engulfing, templar have potl (minor fracture/breach), wardens have toughness, sorc provides an extra synergy. Maybe vulnerability should be the NB thing.

This would replace infallible aether and open up the ability for both hircines and worm to be used in organized trial groups.

You should have to use multiple sources to get minor vulenerbity. It's fine now.

Rex-Umbra · April 2019

Like the lotus fan. Only magicka ability that can hurt a dk with wings up.

KatySpirit · April 2019

I would really like to see Mark Target have a function that is not already provided by the tank. I would definitely run it on my nightblade healer if it did.

I also was disappointed not to see any reconsideration on this newest patch in regards to the giant nerf to Dark Cloak for nightblade tanks. I don't care, make it only bursty for over 30K health or make it weaker in a PVP area, but Dark Cloak for PVE should have been buffed not nerfed. If this goes live nightblade tanking in general will take a massive step backwards.

Jagdkommando · April 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

TL;DR
Problem: grim focus is lacking functionality
Solution: grim focus should grant major brutality/sorcery. Drain power would lose major brutality/sorcery.

Problem: mark target is lacking functionality.
Solution: mark target should grant minor vulnerability instead of major fracture/breach. Teleport strike would lose minor vulnerability.

Problem: lotus fan is overloaded with functionality.
Solution: teleport strike should lose minor vulnerability. Ambush should stun the enemy, even if they are a player.

Problem: incapacitating strike is lacking functionality, on account of minor mangle having very limited usefulness.
Solution: incapacitating strike should lose minor mangle, but stun at the base ability cost of 70 ultimate (instead of 120 ultimate)

Problem: veiled strike is granting too much defense and not enough offense for an offensive spammable.
Solution: veiled strike should be moved to the assassination skill tree, and blur should take its place in the shadow skill tree. Surprise attack should be given major fracture, concealed weapon should be given major breach

I understand why ZOS is rebalancing the NB class. I also agree with their stated goals in Update 22 Combat Direction. And, for the most part, they have been pretty good at working toward those goals in their most recent changes. But the class is nowhere near done, in my opinion. There are a few aspects of the class that still need work, and the following is my detailed explanation of why, followed by some potential solutions to how they could be resolved.

Goals of Class Rebalance, According to Update 22 Combat Direction
1. Eliminate redundancy in class toolkit. If one skill grants a certain function (ex/ major expedition), no other skill in the within the same class should also grant that function.
2. Redistribute skill functionality. Some skills have too much functionality, while others have too little. The goal is to try to balance functionality between individual skills.

The State of the NB Class as of v5.0.1
1. Redundancy has been resolved. With the removal of fracture from surprise attack, expedition from cripple and double take, and maim from mass hysteria, there are no more instances of multiple NB class skills granting the same function.
2. Functionality between class skills is still not balanced. Some issues of overloaded functionality have been resolved (ex/ surprise attack losing major fracture, incapacitating strike losing major defile, grim focus losing minor berserk and minor endurance), but others still exist (or in some cases have been introduced). Other skills have gained much needed functionality (double take receiving snare removal and immunity), but some others are still underwhelming. I will address these individual cases in detail, which brings me to:

Problem Areas within the NB Class as of v5.0.1
1. Grim Focus and it's morphs is lacking functionality. With the removal of berserk and endurance, this skill is now the only skill in the game (accross all classes) that does not give anything back to the user upon the initial cast. 100% of the functionality of this skill is reliant on the user activating the ability (for resource cost), successfully landing 5 light attacks on an enemy, and then activating the ability again (for more resource cost). To gain the benefit of this skill, the user must sacrifice 2 GCD and also deplete their resources twice, all the while adhering to the skill's complex conditional of landing 5 successful light attacks. No other skill in the game does this. Its an empty skill. Relative to the cost and functionality of other skills in the NB toolkit, this one is severely lacking.
2. Mark Target and its morphs is still lacking functionality. To bump up the relative functionality of Mark Target, major fracture was removed from surprise attack, leaving Mark as the only armor debuff in the NB toolkit. This, however, does not increase the value of the skill on its own, especially when compared to similar skills like elemental drain. Both of these skills provide a major debuff to the enemy's armor, can be used at range, and have similar durations. Mark target costs resources though, where elemental drain does not. Mark target can be applied to only one target, while elemental drain can be applied to many. Mark target's additional functionality (a heal when the marked target dies) relies on a conditional, while elemental drain (magicka steal) does not. For the added inconvenience Mark Target brings in comparison to elemental drain, it's benefit is extremely underwhelming.
3. Lotus Fan (morph of Teleport Strike) is overloaded in functionality. This skill acts as a gap closer, applies minor vulnerability to the enemy, snares the enemy, and provides a very strong AoE DoT. Compare this to cripple, which is only a single target DoT and immobilize (half of what Lotus Fan is), and the imbalance in functionality becomes clear.
4. Incapacitating Strike is lacking functionality. Right now, minor mangle is being applied after the damage portion of incapacitating strike. In PvP, this means that after using incap on an enemy, mangle is reducing their max hp by 10%, but this 10% of their hp has already been lost due to the damage of incap itself or the damage of other skills used before incap in combo. It is contributing nothing in PvP. In PvE, mangle can be useful for eliminating potentially millions of hp from enemy bosses. But this is only the case with 100% uptime, and this is not achievable given the ultimate cost and short duration of mangle provided by incapacitating strike. Minor mangle is adding virtually nothing to the skill, leaving the only difference between Incapacitating Strike and the base skill, Death Stroke, to be that for increased ultimate cost the ability stuns the enemy. Compare this to the other morph, soul harvest, which gains major defile and also ultimate generation for killing enemies and Incapacitating Strike is extremely underwhelming. Compare incap to dawn breaker (which costs only 5 ultimate more) and the skill becomes even more underwhelming. Dawn breaker does everything incap does (for a similar cost), but acts as an AoE when incap is single target. The DoT of DB offsets the 20% damage increase of incap. Incapacitating Strike is definitely lacking, especially considering how it is an ultimate ability.
5. Veiled Strike has enough functionality, but it's focus should shift away from defense and toward offense. As a spammable attack, this skill should be used primarily for its offensive capabilities. But as a skill in the shadow tree, it is currently granting the user defensive bonuses in major ward and resolve on account of the shadow barrier passive. With the boost to power extraction's tooltip damage and the removal of fracture from surprise attack, this single target spammable is just barely ahead of the NB AoE spammable in terms of damage output. I find myself primarily using this ability for access to major ward and resolve. This skill should be more oriented toward offense, and not defense.

Potential Solutions
1. Grim Focus and it's morphs should grant major brutality/sorcery. Providing these major buffs would distribute much needed functionality to this skill, while at the same time keeping the overall power of the NB class unchanged because they already have access to these through other skills. To resolve potential redundancy issues, major brutality/sorcery should be removed from drain power and its morphs (which provide enough functionality on their own without these buffs).
2. Mark Target and it's morphs should apply minor vulnerability instead of major fracture and breach. This would provide a very powerful debuff that is capable of stacking with outside sources of fracture and breach, and make the skill a lot more valuable in group play, while keeping almost exactly the same value in solo play. Te resolve redundancy issues, minor vulnerability should be removed from Teleport Strike and it's morphs, which brings me to:
3. Teleport Strike should no longer provide minor vulnerability, and the Ambush morph should stun the enemy (even if it is an enemy player). This change would remove some of the functionality from the currently overloaded Lotus Fan, while at the same time keeping the Ambush morph up to speed. The removal of minor vulnerability on this ability opens up the door for minor vulnerability on mark target as well.
4. Incapacitating strike should lose minor mangle and instead stun the enemy at 70 ultimate (the base cost of the ability) instead of 120 ultimate. The loss of mangle wouldn't hurt the skill much (uselessness of mangle outlined above), but it would allow for the price of the stun to be dropped down to the base ability cost in compensation. This way, in comparison to the base skill death stroke, incapacitating strike would flat out gain a stun (without the conditional of a higher cost) which would allow it olto compete with soul harvest's major defile and ultimate generation. It would also differentiate it from Dawn breaker, allowing it to be a cheaper, single target alternative.
5. Veiled strike and it's morphs should be moved to the assassination skill tree, and blur and it's morphs should be moved to the shadow skill tree. Then, surprise attack could provide major fracture and concealed weapon could provide major breach. Having major fracture on surprise attack was too strong because, as a shadow skill, surprise attack was also granting the user major ward/resolve on account of the shadow barrier passive. Moving this skill out of the shadow tree would eliminate this defensive bonus, and allow the skill to keep its major armor debuff, emphasizing its offensive capability and highlighting the high risk/high reward playstyle of the NB class. Removing the major resistances from the main spammable attack would force NB to periodically go on the defensive vs continuously attacking, emphasizing their bursty nature. I highly doubt this change has any chance of being implemented, but that's not going to stop me from posting it here as I feel it's the right direction to take the class.

The Effects of these Changes
Adopting these changes together wouldn't affect the overall power of the NB class, but it would make NB combat flow so much smoother. Right now, NB have too much of a "spin up time" on buffing themselves and debuffing enemy targets to gain maximum damage potential. They are expected to mark the target (for fracture/breach), then open with incap strike (for mangle), or with ambush (for vulnerability), or with drain power (for brutality/sorcery). Placing brutality/sorcery on Grim Focus instead of drain power and minor vulnerability on mark target instead of teleport strike both work toward streamlining the buffing/debuffing process and put less pressure on NB to open up a fight with a specific moveset. By condensing their buffs and debuff into two skills outside of their spammable (grim focus and mark target), it allows for a shorter time and resource investment to reach max damage potential and makes it easier to retain that potential while switching targets. It would also eliminate the opportunity cost of opening up with a specific skill instead of another. I believe these changes would drastically help the flow of NB combat, while both increasing balance between the abilities in the NB toolkit and also maintaining balance between NB and other classes.

Agree with solution: 2, 3, 4. Mark target would be very useful skill after this, especially in 2-3 player groups. Teleport Strike should stun without any debuff, so oponent just losing resource to break free, also damage can be reduced a bit (10% for example). If everything is removed from Incap then 70 ulti stun should be changed, agree. All this sounds good.

Dont agree with solution: 1. Now the main NB issue Veiled Strike and Grim Focus. Magicka morph of Veiled Strike should be completely reworked, i can suggest make it range, but this is just a suggestion because I'm stam player. Anyway lets move to Surprise Attack. Before patch we had Major Fracture debuff upon use which is excellent support skill in PvE. You may ask why, here is the answer, tank is unable to put that debuff on all mobs in dungeon, but stamblades due to their mobility can help entire group to have that debuff on almost all mobs (especially in non experienced groups), also one more main thing, ZOS is nerfing many things due to PvP issues and players complaints, but we should keep in mind that vast majority of players can hardly use rights skills needed for good dps, i see many times in random dungeons that even 810+ players sometimes doing like 10-15k dps. And that is ok because they are casual players. So once again we need that debuff on Surprise Attack to support in group fights, also Gina asked something like this "Do you think that changes going against of spirit of the class" so NBs supposed to be independent assassins and they must have a couple of buffs/debuffs more than other classes but be less defensive (i think here is real spirit of assassin, that you'd do everything right or die). BUT thus NB in right hands will be very strong (yet again not OP), i suggest to remove/move to other skill line passives Major Ward/Resolve Buff. Because as a nerf we can reduce survivability of NBs. So even for right handed players will be difficult to play as a NB, BUT rewarding!
Now grim focus, i think that the best solution is just to revert all changes, again the reason is mentioned above (spirit of the class). At the moment(in live server) comparing to Sorcs C shard its less dangerous, because C shard may proc many times due to high chance 35%.

NOTE: many things has been changed since the beginning of the game, at the moment we can see too many nerfs, and this is an issue in my pinion. Here is small example: all we see that new trial set will be BIS, as you can use synergy and have War Machine buff for 10 seconds without using ultimate, hmmm right this is very powerful set, and many youtubers say that in good groups it may be 80% uptime and so on. Guys yet again let's remember that 90%+ players in this game are casual and they are unable to do this kind of extreme trial builds/setups/mechanics....
And if there are players who can do it, they really deserve that, and must be rewarded

Now about PvP issues coming out from all of this. I wrote about PvP and PvE separation in 2-3 threads, but will write again. The best solution for it will be changing skill tooltips in PvP areas like Cyro and IC. So if you think Major Fracture is too heavy debuff in PvP just remove it from SA tooltip in PvP ares, thats it. And in PvE we will have nicely balanced gameplay.

Please wainting for your answer guys:
@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_KaiSchober , @ZOS_BillE , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_GaryA

Fiktius · April 2019

Jagdkommando wrote: »

So once again we need that debuff on Surprise Attack to support in group fights, also Gina asked something like this "Do you think that changes going against of spirit of the class" so NBs supposed to be independent assassins and they must have a couple of buffs/debuffs more than other classes but be less defensive (i think here is real spirit of assassin, that you'd do everything right or die). BUT thus NB in right hands will be very strong (yet again not OP), i suggest to remove/move to other skill line passives Major Ward/Resolve Buff. Because as a nerf we can reduce survivability of NBs. So even for right handed players will be difficult to play as a NB, BUT rewarding!

I'm sorry, but I'll now say this directly and honestly: This is worst balance regarding suggestion I've seen.
Nightblade class is not only about doing sick damage as DD, tanks and healers exists too.
Removing major ward/resolve from passives would be GIANT MISTAKE, especially when we have no class skill which provides the same buff.
NB tanking/non-visibility builds already got hurt due nerf of Dark Cloack. Worst thing you could do for Nightblades would be cutting their resistances as well.
Not to mention that PVE is not the only aspect of the game, this major ward is super important aspect of defensive kit of Nightblades in PvP. Removing major resolve/ward is one of the worst things which I can imagine.

EDIT: In case I completely understood your message wrong, I would like to ask clarification:
Are you suggesting that major resolve/ward will be entirely deleted or do you suggest that major ward/resolve should be moved to another class skill? Because if you intended the second one, then it would be much less horrible suggestion.

Ei8htba11 · April 2019

...there are no more instances of multiple NB class skills granting the same function.

I'm not on the PTS, and my noob might be showing but a question.

If there is no overlap in skill abilities, does it not force players into a cookie cutter build to achieve a certain desired outcome in performance? This would apply to all classes/builds, not specifically NB.

I'm genuinely asking, I haven't theory crafted any of this so I'm asking for an education.

Jagdkommando · April 2019

Fiktius wrote: »

Jagdkommando wrote: »

So once again we need that debuff on Surprise Attack to support in group fights, also Gina asked something like this "Do you think that changes going against of spirit of the class" so NBs supposed to be independent assassins and they must have a couple of buffs/debuffs more than other classes but be less defensive (i think here is real spirit of assassin, that you'd do everything right or die). BUT thus NB in right hands will be very strong (yet again not OP), i suggest to remove/move to other skill line passives Major Ward/Resolve Buff. Because as a nerf we can reduce survivability of NBs. So even for right handed players will be difficult to play as a NB, BUT rewarding!

I'm sorry, but I'll now say this directly and honestly: This is worst balance regarding suggestion I've seen.
Nightblade class is not only about doing sick damage as DD, tanks and healers exists too.
Removing major ward/resolve from passives would be GIANT MISTAKE, especially when we have no class skill which provides the same buff.
NB tanking/non-visibility builds already got hurt due nerf of Dark Cloack. Worst thing you could do for Nightblades would be cutting their resistances as well.
Not to mention that PVE is not the only aspect of the game, this major ward is super important aspect of defensive kit of Nightblades in PvP. Removing major resolve/ward is one of the worst things which I can imagine.

Dude did you read carefully what i wrote? 😄

Remove / Move to other skill line
Agree with you, dark cloak nerf is unnecessary

Fiktius · April 2019

Jagdkommando wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

Jagdkommando wrote: »

So once again we need that debuff on Surprise Attack to support in group fights, also Gina asked something like this "Do you think that changes going against of spirit of the class" so NBs supposed to be independent assassins and they must have a couple of buffs/debuffs more than other classes but be less defensive (i think here is real spirit of assassin, that you'd do everything right or die). BUT thus NB in right hands will be very strong (yet again not OP), i suggest to remove/move to other skill line passives Major Ward/Resolve Buff. Because as a nerf we can reduce survivability of NBs. So even for right handed players will be difficult to play as a NB, BUT rewarding!

I'm sorry, but I'll now say this directly and honestly: This is worst balance regarding suggestion I've seen.
Nightblade class is not only about doing sick damage as DD, tanks and healers exists too.
Removing major ward/resolve from passives would be GIANT MISTAKE, especially when we have no class skill which provides the same buff.
NB tanking/non-visibility builds already got hurt due nerf of Dark Cloack. Worst thing you could do for Nightblades would be cutting their resistances as well.
Not to mention that PVE is not the only aspect of the game, this major ward is super important aspect of defensive kit of Nightblades in PvP. Removing major resolve/ward is one of the worst things which I can imagine.

Dude did you read carefully what i wrote? 😄

Remove / Move to other skill line

Yeah, I did edit my original post and asked for clarification. (Which you did here now)
For a moment I got this "Wtf I'm reading here?" feeling.

Jagdkommando · April 2019

Best solution will be move Surprise attack to other skill line so tanks will have Major buffs upon dark cloak(which will be better not nerf!!!), and DDs will not have them during SA spam. This will be really good balance. Because SA fracture is really helping in groups

Silver_Strider · April 2019

1) Drain Power is a thing and adding Major Brutality/Sorcery to Grim Focus would create overlap of the 2. Substitute Major Savagery/Intellect instead and we're good here.

2) Alright with Minor Vulnerability being added to Mark Target but not as the base effect. I'd rather rework the entire skill, making it offer Minor Lifesteal as a base effect, with Minor Vulnerability and Minor Mangle being morph options so that the skill has functional utility in its entirety.

3) Lotus Fan is a bit overtuned ATM so the removal of Minor Vulnerability is fine but that's really all that needs to be changed honestly.

4+5) No comment.

twing1_ · April 2019

Jagdkommando wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

Jagdkommando wrote: »

So once again we need that debuff on Surprise Attack to support in group fights, also Gina asked something like this "Do you think that changes going against of spirit of the class" so NBs supposed to be independent assassins and they must have a couple of buffs/debuffs more than other classes but be less defensive (i think here is real spirit of assassin, that you'd do everything right or die). BUT thus NB in right hands will be very strong (yet again not OP), i suggest to remove/move to other skill line passives Major Ward/Resolve Buff. Because as a nerf we can reduce survivability of NBs. So even for right handed players will be difficult to play as a NB, BUT rewarding!

I'm sorry, but I'll now say this directly and honestly: This is worst balance regarding suggestion I've seen.
Nightblade class is not only about doing sick damage as DD, tanks and healers exists too.
Removing major ward/resolve from passives would be GIANT MISTAKE, especially when we have no class skill which provides the same buff.
NB tanking/non-visibility builds already got hurt due nerf of Dark Cloack. Worst thing you could do for Nightblades would be cutting their resistances as well.
Not to mention that PVE is not the only aspect of the game, this major ward is super important aspect of defensive kit of Nightblades in PvP. Removing major resolve/ward is one of the worst things which I can imagine.

Dude did you read carefully what i wrote? 😄

Remove / Move to other skill line
Agree with you, dark cloak nerf is unnecessary

Shouldn't you support change #5 then, moving veiled strike to the assassination tree? 🤔

twing1_ · April 2019

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

...there are no more instances of multiple NB class skills granting the same function.

I'm not on the PTS, and my noob might be showing but a question.

If there is no overlap in skill abilities, does it not force players into a cookie cutter build to achieve a certain desired outcome in performance? This would apply to all classes/builds, not specifically NB.

I'm genuinely asking, I haven't theory crafted any of this so I'm asking for an education.

Yes, within class skills. But there are outside sources of obtaining most of these functions.

ZOS has stated though (in update 22 Combat Direction) that this is the direction they are heading, by citing "redundancy" in class functions as problematic.

Jagdkommando · April 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

Jagdkommando wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

Jagdkommando wrote: »

So once again we need that debuff on Surprise Attack to support in group fights, also Gina asked something like this "Do you think that changes going against of spirit of the class" so NBs supposed to be independent assassins and they must have a couple of buffs/debuffs more than other classes but be less defensive (i think here is real spirit of assassin, that you'd do everything right or die). BUT thus NB in right hands will be very strong (yet again not OP), i suggest to remove/move to other skill line passives Major Ward/Resolve Buff. Because as a nerf we can reduce survivability of NBs. So even for right handed players will be difficult to play as a NB, BUT rewarding!

I'm sorry, but I'll now say this directly and honestly: This is worst balance regarding suggestion I've seen.
Nightblade class is not only about doing sick damage as DD, tanks and healers exists too.
Removing major ward/resolve from passives would be GIANT MISTAKE, especially when we have no class skill which provides the same buff.
NB tanking/non-visibility builds already got hurt due nerf of Dark Cloack. Worst thing you could do for Nightblades would be cutting their resistances as well.
Not to mention that PVE is not the only aspect of the game, this major ward is super important aspect of defensive kit of Nightblades in PvP. Removing major resolve/ward is one of the worst things which I can imagine.

Dude did you read carefully what i wrote? 😄

Remove / Move to other skill line
Agree with you, dark cloak nerf is unnecessary

Shouldn't you support change #5 then, moving veiled strike to the assassination tree? 🤔

Yes, didnt noticed that

thx

twing1_ · April 2019

Silver_Strider wrote: »

1) Drain Power is a thing and adding Major Brutality/Sorcery to Grim Focus would create overlap of the 2. Substitute Major Savagery/Intellect instead and we're good here.

2) Alright with Minor Vulnerability being added to Mark Target but not as the base effect. I'd rather rework the entire skill, making it offer Minor Lifesteal as a base effect, with Minor Vulnerability and Minor Mangle being morph options so that the skill has functional utility in its entirety.

3) Lotus Fan is a bit overtuned ATM so the removal of Minor Vulnerability is fine but that's really all that needs to be changed honestly.

4+5) No comment.

In my post I recommend removing brutality/sorcery from drain power, as they already provide enough function on their own even without these buffs. I opted to give focus brutality/sorcery instead of savagery/prophecy because I didn't want to adjust the overall power of the class. Giving a class source of savagery/prophecy on top of a source of brutality/sorcery would doubtlessly boost the power of the NB class.

I agree, minor vulnerability is the only adjustment that should be made to lotus fan. Ambush (the opposite morph) is still lacking in comparison (even more so if vulnerability is removed), so I recommended adding a stun to only this morph. Ambush currently neither snares for as long nor provides the DoT component that lotus fan does.

Iskiab · April 2019

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

...there are no more instances of multiple NB class skills granting the same function.

I'm not on the PTS, and my noob might be showing but a question.

If there is no overlap in skill abilities, does it not force players into a cookie cutter build to achieve a certain desired outcome in performance? This would apply to all classes/builds, not specifically NB.

I'm genuinely asking, I haven't theory crafted any of this so I'm asking for an education.

It most certainly does. Most of these move buff around on abilities posts/threads are actually about moving buffs to abilities that suit the playstyle of the poster.

JinxxND · April 2019

I agree with most of those changes aside from the stun on incap. I think they should just remove the stun altogether and bring back the defile and then add some type of passive utility similar to how soul harvest has ult gen, like major savagery while slotted. That way it can't "insta gib" another player in PvP with it's stun, yet it can still be used to focus down players like tanks/healers in which minor mangle does nothing as they just heal through the damage even with the incap debuff applied. The stun is what made it notoriously overpowered and why many magicka nightblades even would use it.

Mark target should apply minor vulnerability and bring major fracture back to surprise attack as a magicka nightblade already has weakness to elements for it's source of major breach and stamina nightblade can't afford to keep applying mark target a magicka costing skill to every target in combat while having to still be able to use abilities like shadow cloak and it's morphs, aspect of terror and it's morphs, blur and it's morphs, summon shade and it's morphs among other possible skills. Also I like the idea of giving the magicka morph concealed weapon major breach to open up gameplay for the melee magicka style.

Also grim focus at this point needs to be completely reworked and revisited as it has been gutted to uselessness in that it's a buff that doesn't give anything and has to be charged and fired within the 7 meter distance to get a heal but ever since the nerf to it's cast time is always dodged in that 7 meter distance, also the heal after battle spirit is not worth slotting at all at this point. The adding of major brutality major sorcery to each respective morph would at least be one of the many steps in a good direction with the skill or removing the delay on the cast and making the skill instant again while lowering the damage if this is now expected to be a go to heal in the nightblade kit.

Another change with aspect of terror and it's fear while seeing the only real positive change with allowing it to fear more targets, removing the part that caused enemies to flee in terror had great application in group to get the target away and create distance from the cc before cc breaking and then having to make up the distance created from the fear cc.

Ambush if trying to add more to the skill can possibly get a single target disease dot if that skill is deemed to need more utility.

Iskiab · April 2019

I really think people should forget about grim/relentless focus. It’s going to be a melee ability (or only used by melee) post patch.

Weakening other abilities to buff it is just weakening the class overall in an attempt to make the skill useful for all builds.

Even in pve it’ll barely be a dps gain using it if at all. In pvp let it keep it’s niche role as a burst hit/heal and leave it at that.

zyk · April 2019

I agree with most of the problems highlighted by the OP but not the solutions.

AvA Magblade did not need a total redesign. It needed tweaks to preserve the gameplay players enjoy today, but with some minor improvements to bring it on par with other specs.

Instead, we're falling down the rabbit hole because of Trial balancing.

WTB: Devs with ethics who care about all of their customers regardless of how much they spend.

twing1_ · April 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

I really think people should forget about grim/relentless focus. It’s going to be a melee ability (or only used by melee) post patch.

Weakening other abilities to buff it is just weakening the class overall in an attempt to make the skill useful for all builds.

Even in pve it’ll barely be a dps gain using it if at all. In pvp let it keep it’s niche role as a burst hit/heal and leave it at that.

Even for melee builds, the problem persists: it is the only skill that is 100% reliant on both 2 GCD and also 2 separate resource costs.

Dracan_Fontom · April 2019

I miss my saptank pvp build

mb10 · April 2019

NB really suffers with group play utility.

Its the one class thats absolutely not needed in a group at all as it practically brings nothing to the table.
Doesnt help team mates, doesnt buff or debuff groups and the AoE attacks are weak + very expensive to cast

Strider__Roshin · April 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

Interesting but you lost me when you said Incap is lacking functionality

Incap is such trash right now that I'd rather take the damage loss and use Soul Harvest in a CP campaign as a stamblade.

Iskiab · April 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I really think people should forget about grim/relentless focus. It’s going to be a melee ability (or only used by melee) post patch.

Weakening other abilities to buff it is just weakening the class overall in an attempt to make the skill useful for all builds.

Even in pve it’ll barely be a dps gain using it if at all. In pvp let it keep it’s niche role as a burst hit/heal and leave it at that.

Even for melee builds, the problem persists: it is the only skill that is 100% reliant on both 2 GCD and also 2 separate resource costs.

I agree, I’m just saying weakening other abilities to move those buffs to merciless is a bad idea.