Please don't clip my Wings!

Bergzorn · April 2019

No DK with Wings slotted, old or new version, is a glass cannon against projectile based builds.

I can understand the concerns when it comes to duelling or maybe battlegrounds. But not for open world PvP, with all the snipetards and other ranged casters around.

Kikke · April 2019

Adapt.

Maulkin · April 2019

JackDaniell wrote: »

This proposed wing change is bad for build diversity. It is only useful if your already bulky.

My glass cannon dk would much rather reflect 4 snipes then eat 2.

I don’t think it’s an accident that the change to wings coincides with a change on snipe. It’s losing the major defile and the damage is reduced, while also bringing the cast time down a bit.

cpuScientist · April 2019

JackDaniell wrote: »

This proposed wing change is bad for build diversity. It is only useful if your already bulky.

My glass cannon dk would much rather reflect 4 snipes then eat 2.

Well as was said they are reducing the damage. But if you were to throw wings up and also use mist form which you are very fond of, you'd be able to move around with your hots far outpacing any damage you take from snipe. And only melee would be an issue. And even when not in mist form 50% is nothing at all to sneeze at. That's better than any armor set gives that's 2/3 of the strength of mistform itself. That's so incredibly potent... It's not only useful if you are already bulky it adds bulk to even nude characters. A naked character with wings up and a character in heavy armor both take a snipe guess who takes less damage. Now a light armor character with wings and a heavy armor character with a set like pariah fully buffed take a snipe light armor still taking less damage.

Major protection makes people near unkillable, that's 30%....

Now everything ranged will be affected. So while you didn't get killed by snipe bet those sorcs spamming pulse or the birds hurt. Well now they do 50% less....

This just made your squish into a tank.

You are usually heavily outnumbered Jack, now you don't have to worry about every 1 or 2 seconds having to reapply it. Up for 6 all the time. Allowing you to kite and do parkour like you love to do...

Congrats on the buff

cpuScientist · April 2019

If they changed hardened ward to instead of absorbing all damage it instead gave me 50% damage reduction to all damage, for the full seconds. Heck even 40 30% Could you imagine how incredibly overpowered that would be. Oh and it also granted snare immunity just to add more to it. That would be ridiculous.

But I would have preferred they made it based on distance. If within 12 meters it just does nothing at all. Above that it still reflects. But that would be too much of Nerf.

Bergzorn · April 2019

cpuScientist wrote: »

If they changed hardened ward to instead of absorbing all damage it instead gave me 50% damage reduction to all damage, for the full seconds. Heck even 40 30% Could you imagine how incredibly overpowered that would be. Oh and it also granted snare immunity just to add more to it. That would be ridiculous.

To be fair, that's not comparable to the new Wings since Hardened Ward absorbs everything except Oblivion damage.

In fact, I'm surprised it didn't come up frequently during the discussion that Wings is (kind of) situational, wich keeps it (again, kind of) balanced IMO. No matter the version.

Sanguinor2 · April 2019

cpuScientist wrote: »

Well as was said they are reducing the damage. But if you were to throw wings up and also use mist form which you are very fond of, you'd be able to move around with your hots far outpacing any damage you take from snipe. And only melee would be an issue. And even when not in mist form 50% is nothing at all to sneeze at. That's better than any armor set gives that's 2/3 of the strength of mistform itself. That's so incredibly potent... It's not only useful if you are already bulky it adds bulk to even nude characters. A naked character with wings up and a character in heavy armor both take a snipe guess who takes less damage. Now a light armor character with wings and a heavy armor character with a set like pariah fully buffed take a snipe light armor still taking less damage.

Major protection makes people near unkillable, that's 30%....

Now everything ranged will be affected. So while you didn't get killed by snipe bet those sorcs spamming pulse or the birds hurt. Well now they do 50% less....

This just made your squish into a tank.

You are usually heavily outnumbered Jack, now you don't have to worry about every 1 or 2 seconds having to reapply it. Up for 6 all the time. Allowing you to kite and do parkour like you love to do...

Congrats on the buff

Well unless something changed or mist is bugged you will not heal yourself during it period, also the Combo Costs around 10k mag per cast if you have the light armor cost reduction, we also dont know yet if everything ranged will be affected by new wings or not.

If you cancel mist instantly to get the Major Expedition you just lost nearly 6k mag for a 3 second Speed buff and will already have to recast wings once to Keep snare immunity up so its not something that is sustainable for Long.

Also you wont do any parcour if you cast wings every 6 seconds, the snare immunity lasts for 2, if Elsweyr is big on the mobility and snare changes that might Change but we dont know how These will Play out yet so I cant say if you are Right or wrong on that one with what Information we currently have.

You will also now get the debuffs and if lethal arrow is changed to minor defile you will also get the Major defile from disease glyphs in Addition to the minor defile from the arrow itself. So you are sitting on a Minimum 38% healing debuff with dots ticking on you.

Now I´m not saying that the rumored wings will be weak if they were to go live Right now, but there is stuff you havent considered if we are to Judge from this comment alone.

Xvorg · April 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Regarding reach, the only thing that prevents mindless spamming of flame, shock and frost reach are wings. After wings are nerfed the complaints will be against that skill that will not have any counter play. So we will move from a skill with "few" counterplay, to several skills with just 2 counters (spell wall and Posture in the S/B line)

So block, dodge and 50% dmg reduction are not considered counters now?

How much can a mDK block and dodge reach? Spam reach until stam is gone. mDKs have teeny tine stam pools and they can't build towards block or dogge cost reduction, because that turns most skills into wet noodles, and then the complaint will be "Uh, Dks are unkillable"

Nerfing wings is not a solution, it is just bad design. Make strife go through wings and improve CW and they will have much less problems against wings. In the case of sorcs, just give them they god dammned spammable and make it go through wings (both versions, stam and magicka), but don't touch wings. They are a necessary evil to make the reach spammer think it twice before spamming that skill.

The rework to wings will only force DKs to spamm wings anyway to get the snare Root/immunity. In fact, no DK uses wings for the reflect, otherwise the other morph (DFS) would be the option for default (20% extra dmg on the reflect)

Even if i were to accept these dumb excuses that DKs cant use dodge or block because "reasons" u are still wrong because 50% dmg reduction by itself is a counter genius. Do you even comprehend what 50% dmg reduction means? Stacked with ur armor dmg reduction alone, you will be taking dmg from projectiles as if you were in mistform. If that much reduction isnt a counter to an ability that needs a specific weapon to even do viable dmg then what is?

Also if wings is the only counter to projectiles then by definition no class has a counter to projectiles cause wings is a class ability. Oh wait i forgot, the other classes can dodge and block, only DKs cant because "reasons".

Also if you need specific counters to spammable abilities then where is my counter that reflects flame lash back in ur face? I mean, according to your logic flame lash doesnt have a counter so i want one. Then id like one for surprise attack. Id say jabs too but the counter to jabs is built in the ability itself

Also if no one is using wings for reflect because its so useless and ZOS reworks the reflect portion of the skill to something else then why the hell are u complaining about nerfs? If that were the case then reworking the useless portion of the ability means that the ability is getting buffed, not nerfed. lol. At least think before you post.

Look i dont like wings changing to 50% dmg reduction either because imo that doesnt fix the issues with the ability being obnoxious in 1v1 while scaling horribly with numbers. But just because i dont like the change im not gonna sit here and say all sorts of dumb things. You literally contradicted ur own arguments multiple times in one post. Again, think before you post because the only thing you get with posts like that is quickly discrediting anything you say.

Ok, too much wrong information, let's start:

1- We are talking abot magDk, right? Stam DK cannot keep wings up because it cannot build towards magicka regen, so the mechanics that spec uses to avoid dmg is block and dodge. MagDK cannot use block and dodge as reliable as stam DK because that spec builds towards magicka regen, So if your solution for mDK is to block or dodge, then you know nothing about the class. ZoS designed DKs to be the "Stay your ground" class, now they want to strip the class from that identity without giving ANYTHING in turn.

2- 50% dmg reduction will allow you to receive less dmg, but dmg is no problem for DK at all (the tank class, you know). What DKs lack, a lot are offensive skills and mobility. Wings cover boths, offensive and mobility, so a dmg reduction skill will be more of the same. And it is not even a 50% dmg reduction in all skills as I have explained, it only covers just one small part of the dmg skills in the game: projectiles. If you count the amount of skills that are countered by wings, right know yu will be impressed, it only counters 15 skills in all the game. Those 15 skills should be the same that are covered by new wings (plus 1 or 2 of the necro). What's more of a problem is the fact that wings help DK to no get resnared after the snare inmmunity has gone, proven you haven't received 4 projectiles. With the change, you will likely spam wings each 2 secs to reapply the snare protection. Do it sounds ok on a class that struggles with mobility? It is much, much better to go back to mist form in that case, just because 75% on ALL dmg skills + major exp + snare immunity beats 50% on 15 skills + snare immunity

3- The counter to lash it has always been range, block and dodge. The difference is that lash hits for much much less that grim focus or frags and implies much more risk. Now frags and will are uncounterable and still hit much harder than lash (not to mention that both are used for classes that lean towards spell crit dmg. I still have to see a DK buiold with over 50% crit chance in PvP.

4- As I said above, the skill covers 2 of the problems of DK, dmg and mobility. Without dmg, it is much better choice to go for mist form. And that, again, will force DKs to go Vamp, so it is a step back to pre-morrowind when wings were remotely used.

5- Before supporting a change that's clearly a nerf, you should think what the change implies. No DK will ever slot wings again. So think again when supporting this change. It is more likely we will go back to 1.6, when DKs were rarerly seen in Cyro.

Dude, you are all over the place. First you say you dont have counters against projectiles and you cant use block and dodge, now suddenly taking dmg is no problem for DK. Also, wings is solving the dmg issues for DKs? You are seriously telling me that DKs are relying on wings for doing dmg. Well even if that were true then damn right it should be nerfed. Are you seriously trying to convince me that an ability which gives mobility, negates ranged builds and deals reliable dmg is balanced? Again, thats ur definition of the skill, not mine.

Supporting the change? Do you genuinely dont read anything people tell you and you just post random stuff? I literally said i dont support the change.

Look buddy, how about you actually start reading what people tell you, pick an argument stick to it and try to actually support it. Right now you are all over the place posting random stuff that make zero sense. I genuinely have no idea what you even want at this point.

And you don't consider that this new wings are just the dumb brother of Elusive Mist?

As I mentioned, wings cover 2 things, dmg from range and mobility, though mobility is a more important aspect for DKs. That's why wings were not used until they get the snare removal and immunity. The reflect part was a plus to that (a good one). Before that, DKs used elusive mist because the reflect wasn't good enough on its own.

So, with that in mind, do you think any DK is going to slot wings instead of Elusive? Just compare the rework to wings and give only one thing they make better than Mist. Mist will be always a better option.

Any solution to that?

Maulkin · April 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Regarding reach, the only thing that prevents mindless spamming of flame, shock and frost reach are wings. After wings are nerfed the complaints will be against that skill that will not have any counter play. So we will move from a skill with "few" counterplay, to several skills with just 2 counters (spell wall and Posture in the S/B line)

So block, dodge and 50% dmg reduction are not considered counters now?

How much can a mDK block and dodge reach? Spam reach until stam is gone. mDKs have teeny tine stam pools and they can't build towards block or dogge cost reduction, because that turns most skills into wet noodles, and then the complaint will be "Uh, Dks are unkillable"

Nerfing wings is not a solution, it is just bad design. Make strife go through wings and improve CW and they will have much less problems against wings. In the case of sorcs, just give them they god dammned spammable and make it go through wings (both versions, stam and magicka), but don't touch wings. They are a necessary evil to make the reach spammer think it twice before spamming that skill.

The rework to wings will only force DKs to spamm wings anyway to get the snare Root/immunity. In fact, no DK uses wings for the reflect, otherwise the other morph (DFS) would be the option for default (20% extra dmg on the reflect)

Even if i were to accept these dumb excuses that DKs cant use dodge or block because "reasons" u are still wrong because 50% dmg reduction by itself is a counter genius. Do you even comprehend what 50% dmg reduction means? Stacked with ur armor dmg reduction alone, you will be taking dmg from projectiles as if you were in mistform. If that much reduction isnt a counter to an ability that needs a specific weapon to even do viable dmg then what is?

Also if wings is the only counter to projectiles then by definition no class has a counter to projectiles cause wings is a class ability. Oh wait i forgot, the other classes can dodge and block, only DKs cant because "reasons".

Also if you need specific counters to spammable abilities then where is my counter that reflects flame lash back in ur face? I mean, according to your logic flame lash doesnt have a counter so i want one. Then id like one for surprise attack. Id say jabs too but the counter to jabs is built in the ability itself

Also if no one is using wings for reflect because its so useless and ZOS reworks the reflect portion of the skill to something else then why the hell are u complaining about nerfs? If that were the case then reworking the useless portion of the ability means that the ability is getting buffed, not nerfed. lol. At least think before you post.

Look i dont like wings changing to 50% dmg reduction either because imo that doesnt fix the issues with the ability being obnoxious in 1v1 while scaling horribly with numbers. But just because i dont like the change im not gonna sit here and say all sorts of dumb things. You literally contradicted ur own arguments multiple times in one post. Again, think before you post because the only thing you get with posts like that is quickly discrediting anything you say.

Ok, too much wrong information, let's start:

1- We are talking abot magDk, right? Stam DK cannot keep wings up because it cannot build towards magicka regen, so the mechanics that spec uses to avoid dmg is block and dodge. MagDK cannot use block and dodge as reliable as stam DK because that spec builds towards magicka regen, So if your solution for mDK is to block or dodge, then you know nothing about the class. ZoS designed DKs to be the "Stay your ground" class, now they want to strip the class from that identity without giving ANYTHING in turn.

2- 50% dmg reduction will allow you to receive less dmg, but dmg is no problem for DK at all (the tank class, you know). What DKs lack, a lot are offensive skills and mobility. Wings cover boths, offensive and mobility, so a dmg reduction skill will be more of the same. And it is not even a 50% dmg reduction in all skills as I have explained, it only covers just one small part of the dmg skills in the game: projectiles. If you count the amount of skills that are countered by wings, right know yu will be impressed, it only counters 15 skills in all the game. Those 15 skills should be the same that are covered by new wings (plus 1 or 2 of the necro). What's more of a problem is the fact that wings help DK to no get resnared after the snare inmmunity has gone, proven you haven't received 4 projectiles. With the change, you will likely spam wings each 2 secs to reapply the snare protection. Do it sounds ok on a class that struggles with mobility? It is much, much better to go back to mist form in that case, just because 75% on ALL dmg skills + major exp + snare immunity beats 50% on 15 skills + snare immunity

3- The counter to lash it has always been range, block and dodge. The difference is that lash hits for much much less that grim focus or frags and implies much more risk. Now frags and will are uncounterable and still hit much harder than lash (not to mention that both are used for classes that lean towards spell crit dmg. I still have to see a DK buiold with over 50% crit chance in PvP.

4- As I said above, the skill covers 2 of the problems of DK, dmg and mobility. Without dmg, it is much better choice to go for mist form. And that, again, will force DKs to go Vamp, so it is a step back to pre-morrowind when wings were remotely used.

5- Before supporting a change that's clearly a nerf, you should think what the change implies. No DK will ever slot wings again. So think again when supporting this change. It is more likely we will go back to 1.6, when DKs were rarerly seen in Cyro.

Dude, you are all over the place. First you say you dont have counters against projectiles and you cant use block and dodge, now suddenly taking dmg is no problem for DK. Also, wings is solving the dmg issues for DKs? You are seriously telling me that DKs are relying on wings for doing dmg. Well even if that were true then damn right it should be nerfed. Are you seriously trying to convince me that an ability which gives mobility, negates ranged builds and deals reliable dmg is balanced? Again, thats ur definition of the skill, not mine.

Supporting the change? Do you genuinely dont read anything people tell you and you just post random stuff? I literally said i dont support the change.

Look buddy, how about you actually start reading what people tell you, pick an argument stick to it and try to actually support it. Right now you are all over the place posting random stuff that make zero sense. I genuinely have no idea what you even want at this point.

And you don't consider that this new wings are just the dumb brother of Elusive Mist?

As I mentioned, wings cover 2 things, dmg from range and mobility, though mobility is a more important aspect for DKs. That's why wings were not used until they get the snare removal and immunity. The reflect part was a plus to that (a good one). Before that, DKs used elusive mist because the reflect wasn't good enough on its own.

So, with that in mind, do you think any DK is going to slot wings instead of Elusive? Just compare the rework to wings and give only one thing they make better than Mist. Mist will be always a better option.

Any solution to that?

I would definitely slot wings over mistform. Wings is not losing its mobility (snare/root purge and immunity) so if your argument is that mobility is more important than reflection, why would you not? And 50% ranged dmg reduction while being able to dmg, heal and regen is extremely strong.

Although I foresee some troll builds with both wings and mistform. If you can cast wings before mistform and get 50% reduction for the full duration of your mist... then compounded with your armor mitigation and Undeath, the damage you will be taking while mistforming around will be miniscule.

Didgerion · April 2019

LordTareq wrote: »

The current iteration of Wings is just silly. Look at the sword & shield reflect by comparison, wings is essentially 4 times as effective. And the new 50% damage reduction without a cap is hardly useless.

Agree! S+B reflects only one magica projectile. You cannot compare it with wings.

Personally i consider it a buff! I encountered many DKs on my magica sorc and none of them killed me using the 100% damage on reflects...i simply rolldodge my reflected skills if i time them badly.

Now with the change DKs will have 100% range immunity for the duration. I think that is a big buff. Unless I missed something...better is to wait for PTS then Test then complain.

cpuScientist · April 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Well as was said they are reducing the damage. But if you were to throw wings up and also use mist form which you are very fond of, you'd be able to move around with your hots far outpacing any damage you take from snipe. And only melee would be an issue. And even when not in mist form 50% is nothing at all to sneeze at. That's better than any armor set gives that's 2/3 of the strength of mistform itself. That's so incredibly potent... It's not only useful if you are already bulky it adds bulk to even nude characters. A naked character with wings up and a character in heavy armor both take a snipe guess who takes less damage. Now a light armor character with wings and a heavy armor character with a set like pariah fully buffed take a snipe light armor still taking less damage.

Major protection makes people near unkillable, that's 30%....

Now everything ranged will be affected. So while you didn't get killed by snipe bet those sorcs spamming pulse or the birds hurt. Well now they do 50% less....

This just made your squish into a tank.

You are usually heavily outnumbered Jack, now you don't have to worry about every 1 or 2 seconds having to reapply it. Up for 6 all the time. Allowing you to kite and do parkour like you love to do...

Congrats on the buff

Well unless something changed or mist is bugged you will not heal yourself during it period, also the Combo Costs around 10k mag per cast if you have the light armor cost reduction, we also dont know yet if everything ranged will be affected by new wings or not.

If you cancel mist instantly to get the Major Expedition you just lost nearly 6k mag for a 3 second Speed buff and will already have to recast wings once to Keep snare immunity up so its not something that is sustainable for Long.

Also you wont do any parcour if you cast wings every 6 seconds, the snare immunity lasts for 2, if Elsweyr is big on the mobility and snare changes that might Change but we dont know how These will Play out yet so I cant say if you are Right or wrong on that one with what Information we currently have.

You will also now get the debuffs and if lethal arrow is changed to minor defile you will also get the Major defile from disease glyphs in Addition to the minor defile from the arrow itself. So you are sitting on a Minimum 38% healing debuff with dots ticking on you.

Now I´m not saying that the rumored wings will be weak if they were to go live Right now, but there is stuff you havent considered if we are to Judge from this comment alone.

Yes it is a costly combo. But reposit skills are supposed to be. Like streak and the like. And you wouldn't live in mistform. I only mentioned it because Jack LOVES mistform.

But on say my magPlar I use mistform to get behind a tree then cast again and Sprint to another point as Sprint is faster. There are times when that's a little more useful. Also casting coag right before going into a mist makes it so you get the instant heal and then another right as you exit mistform, that's usually how I heal up when I used misform.

Also just curious. Not just to you, but people can fight snared you know, you don't have to try to keep up snare immunity every 2 seconds it's not meant for that, and that's why they nerfed forward, it's just more important to use when you need to escape or the other person is trying to escape or general reposition. I use wings on my heavy armor stamDK I use tri food, and I use rally so my only form of snare removal is wings now I also use fossilize and coag and armor buff all costing heaps of mag. But snares are never a problem.

I had stopped playing magDK cause I hated being vamp and when wings got immunity, I mean the entire problem of that class for me left I had mobility finally it made me fast it made me able to catch anyone. Ranged or not, I would use either chains or channeled open world to close the gap and in BG dump that as I'm more stacked with team.

It's my biggest pain point right now on magPlar which I just so heavily adore playing but the absolute reliance on mistform has made it so I just can't play it anymore. If that class got the new wings it would be a godsend.

BUT I AGREE with you, you have been so level headed and I feel the same way, I think everyone here is thinking of new wings as the game is now but we need to be patient and see what else is changed before we can really theorize about anything, then wait and see how it performs for a patch.

Sanguinor2 · April 2019

cpuScientist wrote: »

But on say my magPlar I use mistform to get behind a tree then cast again and Sprint to another point as Sprint is faster. There are times when that's a little more useful. Also casting coag right before going into a mist makes it so you get the instant heal and then another right as you exit mistform, that's usually how I heal up when I used misform.

Also just curious. Not just to you, but people can fight snared you know, you don't have to try to keep up snare immunity every 2 seconds it's not meant for that, and that's why they nerfed forward, it's just more important to use when you need to escape or the other person is trying to escape or general reposition. I use wings on my heavy armor stamDK I use tri food, and I use rally so my only form of snare removal is wings now I also use fossilize and coag and armor buff all costing heaps of mag. But snares are never a problem.

I probably didnt make it that clear in my post, when I refered to wings being cast more often than every 6 seconds I was applying that to when you Need to Reposition fast like when you get chased by multiple People, but yes in General you would not Need to recast them every 2 seconds if they were to go live with what we know of them.

cpuScientist wrote: »

BUT I AGREE with you, you have been so level headed and I feel the same way, I think everyone here is thinking of new wings as the game is now but we need to be patient and see what else is changed before we can really theorize about anything, then wait and see how it performs for a patch.

Yes we will have to see what else will be brought by the patch, alone the Question of the rumored new wings reducing the Damage of the same projectiles as their live Counterpart or additional ranged attacks like shimmering Shield or even more ranged attacks Needs an answer, depending on the answer to that Question wings has potential to be absolutely massive imagine how strong they would be if they were to reduce every ranged Damage, it would be a massive buff compared to now.

Not to Mention waiting for the rest of the class changes and snare changes in General, afaik they are supposed to come with this patch.

satanio · April 2019

cpuScientist wrote: »

Now a light armor character with wings and a heavy armor character with a set like pariah fully buffed take a snipe light armor still taking less damage.

Major protection makes people near unkillable, that's 30%....

Your examples actually take more or less the same amount of dmg. Use https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor
Look at Mitigation tab, compare Major Protection effectivity while blocking, while not blocking etc.

cpuScientist wrote: »

Now everything ranged will be affected. So while you didn't get killed by snipe bet those sorcs spamming pulse or the birds hurt. Well now they do 50% less....

Hopefully, but unprovable since patch hasn't arrived yet.

cpuScientist wrote: »

You are usually heavily outnumbered Jack, now you don't have to worry about every 1 or 2 seconds having to reapply it. Up for 6 all the time. Allowing you to kite and do parkour like you love to do...

Unfortunately, this is not true. Snare immunity is only 2s and if reflect wont be a thing, DK would eat every side effect of those projectiles. Snares, dots, knockbacks that is -> they would need to spam some utility spell anyways.

You're making things up.

SirMewser · April 2019

Anyron wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Defilted wrote: »

50% damage reduction is far from useless.

It's boring and unimaginative.

Translation:

“I main a DK and am too biased to understand why a percent-based damage reduction is more balanced than completely shrugging off ranged projectiles AND turning them back on my enemies.”

You yourself are biased as hell. Go and try som sDK with wings. Youre pretending like its some omnipotent skill that ultimately oneshots everyone.

If you disagree, then you are biased

Sure, we're all biased for saying magicka shuffle sounds really boring compared to what wings do right now.

Okay. So if you think the proposed wings rework is “boring”, would you prefer it if there were stricter parameters for what counts as a “projectile”, so that magNBs and (to a lesser extent) magsorcs can actually deal SOME damage to DKs with their class skills, and not have to rely on comparatively weaker weapon skills like Force Pulse?

@Aurielle

I don't see you advocating for DKs to have more ranged abilities or executes or better mobility to counter MagBlades and MagSorcs once wings gets clipped. It's almost as if you don't really care about "balance" and you just want easier kills on DKs.

I’m not advocating for more ranged abilities because I personally manage just fine with gap-closing to ranged players on my own DK. Could DKs do with a class execute? Sure! That has NOTHING to do with the way that wings completely shuts down magNBs, though, and is something separate entirely. If you don’t want wings altered, then more skills need to bypass wings. Simple. It’s not right that ranged magNBs are completely useless against DKs. When I see a magNB on the other team on my DK, I know immediately that it’s an easy kill at best, and a minor annoyance at worst. I don’t want to be able to kill DKs easily, I just want a better shot at killing them when I’m on my NB. As things currently stand, it’s pointless to even try taking out a DK on a ranged magNB build. Force pulse spam and resto/lightning heavy attacks will only kill a DK if said DK is outnumbered. 1v1? Forget about it. If a DK dies 1v1 to a Force Pulse/HA spamming NB, they need to delete the game and download Hello Kitty Online.

Wings doesn't COMPLETELY shut down ranged MagBlades. It's a MagBlade's choice to ONLY slot ranged abilities. There's a plethora of melee abilities that MagBlades have... including a very broken Mass Hysteria- which allows time to burst down a DK. Also, how well does your DK gap-closer (22m range) work against ranged attackers in PVP... considering that they can hit you from 28-40+ meters? I'm thinking that you main a NB and have a DK that's collecting dust on the shelf.

Sure. So next time try to fight with only non-dot single target skills on your magDK . There is few skills in Dk tree.

Oh look, a Sorc.
Streak away, it's not like the nerfs to durations of major expedition, gap closers, and snares was enough was it?

Thing is, this hurts DKs in PvE too.

Comes PvP, mDKs have to rely on mostly melee anyways.

You can fire at bay.
Hiding behind damage shields that can still be stacked with no skill.

Aurielle · April 2019

Previously, reflects were allowing for extremely unhealthy gameplay that granted the caster an effective 100% damage mitigation on top of the ability to return harmful damaging or controlling effects back at their caster. Additionally, the target requirement made this ability extremely polarizing in performance, going from absolute denial of ranged attacks, to offering little effective power when being bombarded with multiple projectiles.

AMEN.

satanio · April 2019

free snare imunnity for everyone! fak DKs 2sec snare immunity, fak their reflect!

Maulkin · April 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

ll_Rev wrote: »

Cortimi wrote: »

Ok, worst news I have ever read when I heard that my DK's Wings is being nerfed into uselessness.

As a stamDK, this is literally my number 1 survival tool against ranged spam, which if the devs had even spent one minute in a BG, would know the game is saturated with.

This would make us just as vulnerable as Templars, without any of the utility.

I really don't understand how having a survival tool for stamDK is such a bad idea. Did I kill too many devs running tryhard magblade builds in BGs?

Honestly, Wardens have ice shield, NBs can teleport out or stealth out. Now I'll just be a sitting duck.

How about making the reflect morph a stamina morph? That way it can't be spammed by magDK, which I assume where the problem lay.

Yours truly,
A salty stamDK

P.S.
Seriously, don't take my Wings, I'll love you forever and ever.

except this is a buff as the number of enemies increase...

No

only reduces the dmg of (some) ranged enemies, you can still be wrecked by any melee build. For what I understand, beams and AoE ranged skills still do dmg

It still is a buff as the enemies increase, he’s not wrong. If you have 3-4 ranged builds pinging projectiles at you, the reflect barely lasts a second. Unless you can keep spamming it on GCD. If you can’t, new Scales is better.

Not all ranged attacks are projectiles. It takes a half a second to swap from snipe to bombard or from strife to force pulse. People learns how to face an enemy. The differece is that they will careless use light attacks, when now they have to put attention to what they are doing.

Mate, really no offence meant but you’re talking nonsense.

First off, you are confusing projectiles with reflectable attacks. Reflectables are a subset of projectiles. Force Pulse, Cliffracer... they are still projectiles just not reflectable. How do I know? They get absorbed by Shimmering Shield. If new Scales reduces the damage of projectiles it means taking less dmg from them too.

Also, Bombard is not the answer to not being able to land a snipe. It has neither the range nor the damage. And while Force Pulse ignores reflects, somehow Flame Reach is still far far more common. Not everyone builds to counter a magDK and they shouldn’t anyway. That’s the reality.

6” of 50% less dmg from projectiles will lead to more mitigation than 1” of reflects which is what happens right now when you get pelted by ranged attacks and can’t afford spam wings. The statement I made was correct given those parameters. I don’t know why that’s the hill you choose to die on.

Sorry, but pulse is not classified as a projectile, but as a beam. While racer, according to ZoS cannot be reflected because wings, and I think I quoting correctly, "only reflects projectiles and not things that are alive"

Obviously PTS has dropped now and we can all see that Force Pulse is mitigated by new Scales. As is absorbed by Shimmering Shield. Which 100% makes it a non-reflectable projectile, rather than a beam.

Next time learn the mechanics a bit better instead of being certain for something you're completely wrong about.

anatole1234 · April 2019

People don't seem to undderstand wings were negating one complete source of playstyle and in any balanced game you do not want that to happen.

the new wing is actually a huge buff to smallscale and outnumbered DK since if you were fighting more than 5 people your reflects were gone in 0.5 seconds. instead now you get 50% damage mitigation for 6 seconds which is huge.

People crying that this is a nerf were obviously crutching on wings 1v1 or Xv1 . Any decent DK knows that this ***'s actually a buff (Plus the pre 1.6 inhale is back so magDk gonna be godlike again)

Aurielle · April 2019

anatole1234 wrote: »

People don't seem to undderstand wings were negating one complete source of playstyle and in any balanced game you do not want that to happen.

the new wing is actually a huge buff to smallscale and outnumbered DK since if you were fighting more than 5 people your reflects were gone in 0.5 seconds. instead now you get 50% damage mitigation for 6 seconds which is huge.

People crying that this is a nerf were obviously crutching on wings 1v1 or Xv1 . Any decent DK knows that this ***'s actually a buff (Plus the pre 1.6 inhale is back so magDk gonna be godlike again)

Exactly. The magDK buffs are so good, that I might actually turn my sDK back into a mDK.

asuzab16_ESO · April 2019

anatole1234 wrote: »

People don't seem to undderstand wings were negating one complete source of playstyle and in any balanced game you do not want that to happen.

the new wing is actually a huge buff to smallscale and outnumbered DK since if you were fighting more than 5 people your reflects were gone in 0.5 seconds. instead now you get 50% damage mitigation for 6 seconds which is huge.

People crying that this is a nerf were obviously crutching on wings 1v1 or Xv1 . Any decent DK knows that this ***'s actually a buff (Plus the pre 1.6 inhale is back so magDk gonna be godlike again)

As you were told in the other thread, you're voluntarily skipping one part of the situation and focusing on the benefits. Yes, MagDK is going to be incredibly strong in close fights thanks to the new wings and other buffs.

However, that change will also make MagDK the easiest class to kite and control. We already have the worst mobility of all classes and none of our gap closers can reach ranged ennemies. Even stonefist doesn't reach snipers. The reflected effects of wings were our only tool to reach those ennemies and now that this is gone, it is going to be extremely easy for any decent ranged player to make sure that we can't land even a single hit in open spaces.

So yeah, we're going to hit hard and be super tanky but what's the point if we can't reach our targets? I would have much prefered to keep wings reflection but limit it to 14m+ projectiles and/or 2 reflections per enemy. That would have been a much more balanced change, not one that just transfers the "completely shut down by another class" status from MagNB to MagDK.

DisgracefulMind · April 2019

asuzab16_ESO wrote: »

anatole1234 wrote: »

People don't seem to undderstand wings were negating one complete source of playstyle and in any balanced game you do not want that to happen.

the new wing is actually a huge buff to smallscale and outnumbered DK since if you were fighting more than 5 people your reflects were gone in 0.5 seconds. instead now you get 50% damage mitigation for 6 seconds which is huge.

People crying that this is a nerf were obviously crutching on wings 1v1 or Xv1 . Any decent DK knows that this ***'s actually a buff (Plus the pre 1.6 inhale is back so magDk gonna be godlike again)

As you were told in the other thread, you're voluntarily skipping one part of the situation and focusing on the benefits. Yes, MagDK is going to be incredibly strong in close fights thanks to the new wings and other buffs.

However, that change will also make MagDK the easiest class to kite and control. We already have the worst mobility of all classes and none of our gap closers can reach ranged ennemies. Even stonefist doesn't reach snipers. The reflected effects of wings were our only tool to reach those ennemies and now that this is gone, it is going to be extremely easy for any decent ranged player to make sure that we can't land even a single hit in open spaces.

So yeah, we're going to hit hard and be super tanky but what's the point if we can't reach our targets? I would have much prefered to keep wings reflection but limit it to 14m+ projectiles and/or 2 reflections per enemy. That would have been a much more balanced change, not one that just transfers the "completely shut down by another class" status from MagNB to MagDK.

MagDK does NOT have the worst mobility of any classes. Currently you're the only magicka spec with access to snare removal, that's hardly the worst mobility.

The misinformation on these forums is really irritating.

asuzab16_ESO · April 2019

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

asuzab16_ESO wrote: »

anatole1234 wrote: »

People don't seem to undderstand wings were negating one complete source of playstyle and in any balanced game you do not want that to happen.

the new wing is actually a huge buff to smallscale and outnumbered DK since if you were fighting more than 5 people your reflects were gone in 0.5 seconds. instead now you get 50% damage mitigation for 6 seconds which is huge.

People crying that this is a nerf were obviously crutching on wings 1v1 or Xv1 . Any decent DK knows that this ***'s actually a buff (Plus the pre 1.6 inhale is back so magDk gonna be godlike again)

As you were told in the other thread, you're voluntarily skipping one part of the situation and focusing on the benefits. Yes, MagDK is going to be incredibly strong in close fights thanks to the new wings and other buffs.

However, that change will also make MagDK the easiest class to kite and control. We already have the worst mobility of all classes and none of our gap closers can reach ranged ennemies. Even stonefist doesn't reach snipers. The reflected effects of wings were our only tool to reach those ennemies and now that this is gone, it is going to be extremely easy for any decent ranged player to make sure that we can't land even a single hit in open spaces.

So yeah, we're going to hit hard and be super tanky but what's the point if we can't reach our targets? I would have much prefered to keep wings reflection but limit it to 14m+ projectiles and/or 2 reflections per enemy. That would have been a much more balanced change, not one that just transfers the "completely shut down by another class" status from MagNB to MagDK.

MagDK does NOT have the worst mobility of any classes. Currently you're the only magicka spec with access to snare removal, that's hardly the worst mobility.

The misinformation on these forums is really irritating.

Sure, we can remove snares but we still can't get close since we don't have any tool to slow down or stun players over 22 meters, and that's the kind of situation I'm specifically talking about. What allows us to close the distance with ranged ennemies over 22m at the moment is the reflections that provide what we miss so much: skills to get close to ennemies. You can remove all the snares you want, without reflections, you won't be able to close the distance with a decent ranged player that knows how to kite.

Now that the reflected snares and stuns are gone, we're left with a snare removal and no tools to reach targets over 22m. And it's gonna be even harder now that all classes get access to a snare removal / 4 sec immunity.

I understand what ZOS is trying to do with MagDKs, immobile but tanky hard hitter, and I'm sure it's gonna be a lot of fun in close environments, but in open PvP, we'll definitely be sitting ducks if these changes remain.

Wings definitely needed a change and this is not a good one. As the first returns on PTS mention, we're losing our only tool to reach targets over 22m, we can't hit the ranged targets and they can't kill us because we're too tanky. How does that benefit anyone? My previous suggestion would be far better for everyone...

Bergzorn · April 2019

asuzab16_ESO wrote: »

You can remove all the snares you want, without reflections, you won't be able to close the distance with a decent ranged player that knows how to kite.

And it's gonna be even harder now that all classes get access to a snare removal / 4 sec immunity.

With 50% reduced projectile damage, you got the tool to make ranged players die of boredom. The *** up thing is that this reduction also works if the ranged player decides / is forced to go in melee range. With no real pressure on the DK, and even with, it's usually game over pretty fast against Fossilize stamina drain and DOTs piling up.

Also, (m)DKs have access to Race Against Time, too. For the same tradeoff as any other class, a skill slot.

And maybe I'm missing something here, but aren't all gap closers 22m in range? Chains should be reliable, but should not have more range.

asuzab16_ESO · April 2019

Bergzorn wrote: »

asuzab16_ESO wrote: »

You can remove all the snares you want, without reflections, you won't be able to close the distance with a decent ranged player that knows how to kite.

And it's gonna be even harder now that all classes get access to a snare removal / 4 sec immunity.

With 50% reduced projectile damage, you got the tool to make ranged players die of boredom. The *** up thing is that this reduction also works if the ranged player decides / is forced to go in melee range. With no real pressure on the DK, and even with, it's usually game over pretty fast against Fossilize stamina drain and DOTs piling up.

Also, (m)DKs have access to Race Against Time, too. For the same tradeoff as any other class, a skill slot.

And maybe I'm missing something here, but aren't all gap closers 22m in range? Chains should be reliable, but should not have more range.

Yes for the first part. As I said at the end of my previous message, this is what ends up happening on PTS : players just die of boredom. Ranged try in vain to kill DKs and DKs try in vain to reach their targets.

And yes, Race Against Time is probably going to be a must have if MagDKs want to have a chance to reach their targets.

Hopefully, chains will finally start working with the new changes but 22 meters is still not enough to reach ranged that can kite correctly.

anatole1234 · April 2019

asuzab16_ESO wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

asuzab16_ESO wrote: »

You can remove all the snares you want, without reflections, you won't be able to close the distance with a decent ranged player that knows how to kite.

And it's gonna be even harder now that all classes get access to a snare removal / 4 sec immunity.

With 50% reduced projectile damage, you got the tool to make ranged players die of boredom. The *** up thing is that this reduction also works if the ranged player decides / is forced to go in melee range. With no real pressure on the DK, and even with, it's usually game over pretty fast against Fossilize stamina drain and DOTs piling up.

Also, (m)DKs have access to Race Against Time, too. For the same tradeoff as any other class, a skill slot.

And maybe I'm missing something here, but aren't all gap closers 22m in range? Chains should be reliable, but should not have more range.

Yes for the first part. As I said at the end of my previous message, this is what ends up happening on PTS : players just die of boredom. Ranged try in vain to kill DKs and DKs try in vain to reach their targets.

And yes, Race Against Time is probably going to be a must have if MagDKs want to have a chance to reach their targets.

Hopefully, chains will finally start working with the new changes but 22 meters is still not enough to reach ranged that can kite correctly.

all gap closer are capped at 22 meters, so this isnt a DK problem, this is a gap close problem. One of the morph of scales actually shoots fireball at them on a 0.5 cooldown, that is huge if you're getting hit on cooldown.

Sanguinor2 · April 2019

anatole1234 wrote: »

all gap closer are capped at 22 meters, so this isnt a DK problem, this is a gap close problem. One of the morph of scales actually shoots fireball at them on a 0.5 cooldown, that is huge if you're getting hit on cooldown.

DFS actually is huge because plate just died with the existance of RAT.

pieratsos · April 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Regarding reach, the only thing that prevents mindless spamming of flame, shock and frost reach are wings. After wings are nerfed the complaints will be against that skill that will not have any counter play. So we will move from a skill with "few" counterplay, to several skills with just 2 counters (spell wall and Posture in the S/B line)

So block, dodge and 50% dmg reduction are not considered counters now?

How much can a mDK block and dodge reach? Spam reach until stam is gone. mDKs have teeny tine stam pools and they can't build towards block or dogge cost reduction, because that turns most skills into wet noodles, and then the complaint will be "Uh, Dks are unkillable"

Nerfing wings is not a solution, it is just bad design. Make strife go through wings and improve CW and they will have much less problems against wings. In the case of sorcs, just give them they god dammned spammable and make it go through wings (both versions, stam and magicka), but don't touch wings. They are a necessary evil to make the reach spammer think it twice before spamming that skill.

The rework to wings will only force DKs to spamm wings anyway to get the snare Root/immunity. In fact, no DK uses wings for the reflect, otherwise the other morph (DFS) would be the option for default (20% extra dmg on the reflect)

Even if i were to accept these dumb excuses that DKs cant use dodge or block because "reasons" u are still wrong because 50% dmg reduction by itself is a counter genius. Do you even comprehend what 50% dmg reduction means? Stacked with ur armor dmg reduction alone, you will be taking dmg from projectiles as if you were in mistform. If that much reduction isnt a counter to an ability that needs a specific weapon to even do viable dmg then what is?

Also if wings is the only counter to projectiles then by definition no class has a counter to projectiles cause wings is a class ability. Oh wait i forgot, the other classes can dodge and block, only DKs cant because "reasons".

Also if you need specific counters to spammable abilities then where is my counter that reflects flame lash back in ur face? I mean, according to your logic flame lash doesnt have a counter so i want one. Then id like one for surprise attack. Id say jabs too but the counter to jabs is built in the ability itself

Also if no one is using wings for reflect because its so useless and ZOS reworks the reflect portion of the skill to something else then why the hell are u complaining about nerfs? If that were the case then reworking the useless portion of the ability means that the ability is getting buffed, not nerfed. lol. At least think before you post.

Look i dont like wings changing to 50% dmg reduction either because imo that doesnt fix the issues with the ability being obnoxious in 1v1 while scaling horribly with numbers. But just because i dont like the change im not gonna sit here and say all sorts of dumb things. You literally contradicted ur own arguments multiple times in one post. Again, think before you post because the only thing you get with posts like that is quickly discrediting anything you say.

Ok, too much wrong information, let's start:

1- We are talking abot magDk, right? Stam DK cannot keep wings up because it cannot build towards magicka regen, so the mechanics that spec uses to avoid dmg is block and dodge. MagDK cannot use block and dodge as reliable as stam DK because that spec builds towards magicka regen, So if your solution for mDK is to block or dodge, then you know nothing about the class. ZoS designed DKs to be the "Stay your ground" class, now they want to strip the class from that identity without giving ANYTHING in turn.

2- 50% dmg reduction will allow you to receive less dmg, but dmg is no problem for DK at all (the tank class, you know). What DKs lack, a lot are offensive skills and mobility. Wings cover boths, offensive and mobility, so a dmg reduction skill will be more of the same. And it is not even a 50% dmg reduction in all skills as I have explained, it only covers just one small part of the dmg skills in the game: projectiles. If you count the amount of skills that are countered by wings, right know yu will be impressed, it only counters 15 skills in all the game. Those 15 skills should be the same that are covered by new wings (plus 1 or 2 of the necro). What's more of a problem is the fact that wings help DK to no get resnared after the snare inmmunity has gone, proven you haven't received 4 projectiles. With the change, you will likely spam wings each 2 secs to reapply the snare protection. Do it sounds ok on a class that struggles with mobility? It is much, much better to go back to mist form in that case, just because 75% on ALL dmg skills + major exp + snare immunity beats 50% on 15 skills + snare immunity

3- The counter to lash it has always been range, block and dodge. The difference is that lash hits for much much less that grim focus or frags and implies much more risk. Now frags and will are uncounterable and still hit much harder than lash (not to mention that both are used for classes that lean towards spell crit dmg. I still have to see a DK buiold with over 50% crit chance in PvP.

4- As I said above, the skill covers 2 of the problems of DK, dmg and mobility. Without dmg, it is much better choice to go for mist form. And that, again, will force DKs to go Vamp, so it is a step back to pre-morrowind when wings were remotely used.

5- Before supporting a change that's clearly a nerf, you should think what the change implies. No DK will ever slot wings again. So think again when supporting this change. It is more likely we will go back to 1.6, when DKs were rarerly seen in Cyro.

Dude, you are all over the place. First you say you dont have counters against projectiles and you cant use block and dodge, now suddenly taking dmg is no problem for DK. Also, wings is solving the dmg issues for DKs? You are seriously telling me that DKs are relying on wings for doing dmg. Well even if that were true then damn right it should be nerfed. Are you seriously trying to convince me that an ability which gives mobility, negates ranged builds and deals reliable dmg is balanced? Again, thats ur definition of the skill, not mine.

Supporting the change? Do you genuinely dont read anything people tell you and you just post random stuff? I literally said i dont support the change.

Look buddy, how about you actually start reading what people tell you, pick an argument stick to it and try to actually support it. Right now you are all over the place posting random stuff that make zero sense. I genuinely have no idea what you even want at this point.

And you don't consider that this new wings are just the dumb brother of Elusive Mist?

As I mentioned, wings cover 2 things, dmg from range and mobility, though mobility is a more important aspect for DKs. That's why wings were not used until they get the snare removal and immunity. The reflect part was a plus to that (a good one). Before that, DKs used elusive mist because the reflect wasn't good enough on its own.

So, with that in mind, do you think any DK is going to slot wings instead of Elusive? Just compare the rework to wings and give only one thing they make better than Mist. Mist will be always a better option.

Any solution to that?

Which again makes no sense. You insist on telling me that reflect isn't good enough to make it a worthwhile ability and the only thing that makes it a good ability is the mobility it gives and at the same time complain about the reflect getting reworked when it's literally the part of the ability that u don't think it's good anw.

Mist form is entirely irrelevant. Mist form has always been a decent choice because it helps with a weakness DKs always had. Mobility. If you just want to have everything built in ur class because reasons, then you are the one who doesn't want balance.