Please don't clip my Wings!

Maulkin · April 2019

BNOC wrote: »

Take the reflect component off completely and have it heal you like the Templar bubble that was given the same treatment.

Xvorg wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

The current iteration of Wings is just silly. Look at the sword & shield reflect by comparison, wings is essentially 4 times as effective. And the new 50% damage reduction without a cap is hardly useless.

In what part it says is a 50% damage reduction ON ALL ATTACKS? Is just 50% dmg reduction against projectiles. Force pulse, Soul Assaut and even elemental ring/Bombard will still do 100% dmg against DK. Melee skills? Just the same.

People read what they want to read

When have you died died to Force pulse and Soul Assault alone?

Force pulse and Soul Assault hahaha

And elemental ring. Please don’t make fun

Force Pulse is a projectile anyway. It’s just not reflectable. But shimmering shield absorbs it, since it’s a projectile. So likely that new wings will absorb 50% of its damage too.

Sanguinor2 · April 2019

Aurielle wrote: »

So because your gap closers don’t work for you sometimes, I can’t use any magblade projectiles on you when you’re spamming wings. Ever.

K. Good argument.

Now you are just putting words in my mouth, Im simply listing what is wrong with mdk mobility, nowhere did I say that the current Iteration of wings in combination with a suboptimal magnb kit against them is fine.

Thing, that you should Keep in mind, is that this wing Change will help you when Fighting 1v1 against a mdk yes, but it wont help you with any other ranged counter at all. The second wings Change is live and you fight a warden you will have the exact same Problem, so what magnb Needs is not a Change to wings, but a Change to their toolkit to make either ranged playstyle less punishing against counters or good working Options that you could take if you are not willing to accept weakness against ranged counters. Well that or every ranged counter in this game banished from it. Your choice which you prefer, I know which one I do prefer.

Edit: Also @Aurielle I expected it to be common courtesy to not place wild Statements, which the Person in Question did not make, in the mouth of the Person you are trying to argue with but the more you know I guess. Usually when trying to argue against someones Points you do not conjure those out of thin air.

Aurielle · April 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

So because your gap closers don’t work for you sometimes, I can’t use any magblade projectiles on you when you’re spamming wings. Ever.

K. Good argument.

Now you are just putting words in my mouth, Im simply listing what is wrong with mdk mobility, nowhere did I say that the current Iteration of wings in combination with a suboptimal magnb kit against them is fine.

Thing, that you should Keep in mind, is that this wing Change will help you when Fighting 1v1 against a mdk yes, but it wont help you with any other ranged counter at all. The second wings Change is live and you fight a warden you will have the exact same Problem, so what magnb Needs is not a Change to wings, but a Change to their toolkit to make either ranged playstyle less punishing against counters or good working Options that you could take if you are not willing to accept weakness against ranged counters. Well that or every ranged counter in this game banished from it. Your choice which you prefer, I know which one I do prefer.

Edit: Also @Aurielle I expected it to be common courtesy to not place wild Statements, which the Person in Question did not make, in the mouth of the Person you are trying to argue with but the more you know I guess. Usually when trying to argue against someones Points you do not conjure those out of thin air.

You disputed my claim that you have other valid tools at your disposal to force ranged players into melee range; ergo, it only seemed logical to me that you support wings in its current iteration, primarily because it keeps ranged projectile players like myself (when I’m on my NB or my sorc) at bay. A single non-ultimate skill should not have the capacity to shut down an entire playstyle indefinitely. I can get around it somewhat on my magsorc, as I have other forms of ranged CC I can use besides reach, and my execute can’t be reflected. On magNB, I can do NO ranged damage besides force pulse and heavy resto attacks against DKs, forcing me to switch to a tanky healer spec just to be able to bring SOME utility to my team. That is an utter joke, and you know it.

Again, no single skill should have the capacity to hard counter one class’s entire ranged damage tool kit. Currently, all a DK has to do to force a ranged mNB out of a match is spam wings.

satanio · April 2019

Aurielle wrote: »

Again, no single skill should have the capacity to hard counter one class’s entire ranged damage tool kit. Currently, all a DK has to do to force a ranged mNB out of a match is spam wings.

So it's Wings fault... and in 2 months it'll be shimmering shields fault.... and then defensive posture...
then what, you meet another NB that'll cloak too much and you cry for the cloak nerf, cause you cannot land your abilites?

How about proposing some good suggestion for mag NBs instead of gutting unique defensive tool?

Maulkin · April 2019

satanio wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Again, no single skill should have the capacity to hard counter one class’s entire ranged damage tool kit. Currently, all a DK has to do to force a ranged mNB out of a match is spam wings.

So it's Wings fault... and in 2 monthes it'll be shimmering shields fault.... and then defensive posture...
then what, you meet another NB that'll cloak too much and you cry for the cloak nerf, cause you cannot land your abilites?

How about proposing some good suggestion for mag NBs instead of gutting unique defensive tool?

We have proposed numerous changes already to increase magblade viability in PvP and its performance against reflect/absorb builds. We mentioned multiple times getting a skill like Curse, Purifying Light, something that's not a projectile and works through reflect, dodge, block. Doesn't even have to be a burst dmg skill, it can be a DoT. This isn't on the players.

Besides that, I really fail to see this change as gutting the skill. 50% less damage from projectiles for a full 6" is huge. It's changing, sure, but it's still great. Probably even stronger than before in most cases.

Sanguinor2 · April 2019

Aurielle wrote: »

You disputed my claim that you have other valid tools at your disposal to force ranged players into melee range; ergo, it only seemed logical to me that you support wings in its current iteration, primarily because it keeps ranged projectile players like myself (when I’m on my NB or my sorc) at bay. A single non-ultimate skill should not have the capacity to shut down an entire playstyle indefinitely. I can get around it somewhat on my magsorc, as I have other forms of ranged CC I can use besides reach, and my execute can’t be reflected. On magNB, I can do NO ranged damage besides force pulse and heavy resto attacks against DKs, forcing me to switch to a tanky healer spec just to be able to bring SOME utility to my team. That is an utter joke, and you know it.

Again, no single skill should have the capacity to hard counter one class’s entire ranged damage tool kit. Currently, all a DK has to do to force a ranged mNB out of a match is spam wings.

And I agree with your opinion About magblade in particular being countered way too hard by wings, but for me the fault for that does not lie with wings but with the magblade toolkit only offering relfectable ranged skills and melee being nerfed a lot and melee still depends on reflectable skills for more mobility, burst and execute.

I do support wings themselves in their current Iteration but what I do not support is magblades not having Options to fight around them (well some say force pulse but we both know that it will not kill a dk on its own). I would prefer wings do not loose reflect but either being changed to allow counterplay (like saying anything inside a certain distance does not get reflected anymore) or magblade being changed to have abilities and pressure that can go through, not only wings, but every ranged counter because the rumored wings Change will not make you better against any other ranged counter in the game but simply give you the ability to fight back against dks (not that you will 1v1 a dk that takes 50% less dmg from all your Damage except Soul Harvest).

To reiterate: I agree that wings counter magblades way too hard, but I would rather magblade gets buffed/some reworks that allow them to have Options just like sorc has them that make them be atleast useful against a dk using wings and not like you said you do Change to healer to bring Utility to your Team.

This all however does not Change that dk mobility is Pretty bad, its not magplar bad but Pretty bad nonetheless.

Aurielle · April 2019

satanio wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Again, no single skill should have the capacity to hard counter one class’s entire ranged damage tool kit. Currently, all a DK has to do to force a ranged mNB out of a match is spam wings.

So it's Wings fault... and in 2 monthes it'll be shimmering shields fault.... and then defensive posture...
then what, you meet another NB that'll cloak too much and you cry for the cloak nerf, cause you cannot land your abilites?

How about proposing some good suggestion for mag NBs instead of gutting unique defensive tool?

My suggestion for helping ranged magNBs (if the wings change is too much for you to adapt to) is to make at least 50% of the magNB’s ranged skills non-reflectable. My magNB is well-balanced against other classes; only DKs can completely shut it down because literally every ranged class skill I have can be reflected. At the VERY least, Impale and Swallow Soul should go through wings. EVERY OTHER MAGICKA CLASS besides mNB can use ranged executes and class spammables on DKs without having them reflected back in their face.

Sanguinor2 · April 2019

Aurielle wrote: »

My suggestion for helping ranged magNBs (if the wings change is too much for you to adapt to) is to make at least 50% of the magNB’s ranged skills non-reflectable. My magNB is well-balanced against other classes; only DKs can completely shut it down because literally every ranged class skill I have can be reflected. At the VERY least, Impale and Swallow Soul should go through wings. EVERY OTHER MAGICKA CLASS besides mNB can use ranged executes and class spammables on DKs without having them reflected back in their face.

Out of curiosity how is it that only wings shut you down but shimmering doesnt?

Toc de Malsvi · April 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

My suggestion for helping ranged magNBs (if the wings change is too much for you to adapt to) is to make at least 50% of the magNB’s ranged skills non-reflectable. My magNB is well-balanced against other classes; only DKs can completely shut it down because literally every ranged class skill I have can be reflected. At the VERY least, Impale and Swallow Soul should go through wings. EVERY OTHER MAGICKA CLASS besides mNB can use ranged executes and class spammables on DKs without having them reflected back in their face.

Out of curiosity how is it that only wings shut you down but shimmering doesnt?

Because you can power through shimmering, trying to power through wings is suicide. Only stam can afford to dodge the projectiles coming back at oneself, even doing that is a huge resource drain.

Aurielle · April 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

My suggestion for helping ranged magNBs (if the wings change is too much for you to adapt to) is to make at least 50% of the magNB’s ranged skills non-reflectable. My magNB is well-balanced against other classes; only DKs can completely shut it down because literally every ranged class skill I have can be reflected. At the VERY least, Impale and Swallow Soul should go through wings. EVERY OTHER MAGICKA CLASS besides mNB can use ranged executes and class spammables on DKs without having them reflected back in their face.

Out of curiosity how is it that only wings shut you down but shimmering doesnt?

Because Shimmering doesn’t reflect my own skills back at me? And there’s a limit to how much damage can be absorbed?

Maulkin · April 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

My suggestion for helping ranged magNBs (if the wings change is too much for you to adapt to) is to make at least 50% of the magNB’s ranged skills non-reflectable. My magNB is well-balanced against other classes; only DKs can completely shut it down because literally every ranged class skill I have can be reflected. At the VERY least, Impale and Swallow Soul should go through wings. EVERY OTHER MAGICKA CLASS besides mNB can use ranged executes and class spammables on DKs without having them reflected back in their face.

Out of curiosity how is it that only wings shut you down but shimmering doesnt?

It kinda does but not as hard. Less projectiles (3 vs 4), absorb vs reflect. Shimmering lets CC through, lets dots through and even lets dmg though as there's a limit on how much dmg they absorb per projectile. I can root a magden with Cripple but a MagDK will at best shake it off with Scales snare removal and at worse reflect it back at me snaring, rooting and damaging my self.

Don't get me wrong, if a magwarden plays defensive and spams Shimmering and heals, it's still extremely hard to get through that as a magblade. But you have more control of the fight instead of being pinned down.

Sanguinor2 · April 2019

Well first of all if you say that shimmering is so much easier to deal with then I guess that is true for many, I mainly pvp on magplar and magdk so I dont really have issues with ranged counters so I dont have much experience towards which one is worse or better. I guess with shimmering it depends more on Player skill of the warden in Terms of how difficult it is to get through it.

I would like to Mention that the shimmering Damage cap being something you can get through is not true at all. The Shimmering Damage cap scales with the max Health of the warden using it so if we are generous and give the warden only 23k Health with battle spirit and minor toughness you would Need to deal 34498 Damage in one cast with the battle spirit reduction so one ability exceeding the shimmering cap will never happen even if it is affected by the battle spirit Shield strength reduction since you would Need to deal About 17500 Damage in one cast.

Chiefwilliams · April 2019

can someone link these patch notes talking about all of this? the only thing i can find is something mentioning cleave changes and nothing else.

thedude33 · April 2019

You are the wind beneath my wings

Arciris · April 2019

Maulkin wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

I pulled my Chrystal Ball out and here is what I saw:

ZOS reads feedback here and see people (some) are very happy with 50% reduction and even call it a buff.
>ZOS puts Wings on PTS at 40%.
>DK haters start screaming they can't put a dent on DK's and 40% is too much.
>ZOS puts new Wings on Live at 30%.

After a while DK haters continue winning they can't kill a good DK and that it's Wing's fault.
>ZOS nerfs Wings to 15% - or reworks the way the damage reduction is calculated to make the 30% on paper be effectively 15%.

Meanwhile, in the next-next patch, ZOS reworks weapon skill line abilities and removes Reflect from SnB altogether.
>The game now loses yet another universal and fun mechanic without anything to replace it.

And no, I don't have a DK main, although I do have all classes max leveled, I just play Templar and Sorc more.

I'm just concerned when I look at the list of mechanics lost and I barely see anything new added, at least not anything universal - basically the only new mechanic introduced in Years(!) is the time reverse thing from Psijiic.
It's sad to see the game I used to love just become a sad shadow of itself, combat wise.

You're basically building an argument that a mechanic is being lost on the hypothesis that they will also remove Spell Wall.

Calm down.

The first argument I am building is that Wings will never get 50% damage reduction on Live.

The second argument is based on the fact that next patch is focused on the rework of Class abilities and that the patch after that will be focused on the rework of Weapon skill lines, we already know that much.
If they remove Reflect from Wings (Class ability) next patch, it is possible that they are considering removing Reflect from Weapon abilities the patch after, just for coherence. It is not a certainty, just a possibility and I think a strong one.

That possibility concerns me, I have seen this happen with other mechanics in the game (been here since Beta).

And I am calm, I barely play DK, and when I do, it's PvE only. PvP I play MagSorc, Destro/Resto, no Reflect used by me.
Still, I never like when a Class loses a defining skill or mechanic and i certainly don't like when the game loses one either.

Stibbons · April 2019

Look at templar nerfed shields. I hope dragonknights are next.

DHale · April 2019

This might be the worst decision ever to ever be proposed. Its a defining class skill. Half the time it reflects nothing and stuff it is supposed to reflect it doesn't but wings used to work perfectly. Change it back to that.

Chiefwilliams · April 2019

Stibbons wrote: »

Look at templar nerfed shields. I hope dragonknights are next.

where do you see these changes? i see posts about dk wings and minor berserk being changes on NB, i cant find these notes anywhere? can you link them please

Flame_of_Hades · April 2019

Savos_Saren wrote: »

There we have it, folks! NBs and Sorcs who can burn DKs down from a range of 28+ meters (outside of our 22 meter gap closer) all agree that this is a good and balanced change!

Luckily our major expedition is tied to our gap closer- so we can’t run up to get them in melee range. Oh, and of course these two classes have the best mobility in game... so they can use major expedition to kite us... or streak to keep us at range... or cloak constantly outside of a detect potion range while pewpewing us at 28+ meters with no repercussions.

And A dk.

Trancestor · April 2019

I don't understand the MagDK sob story that they cant properly gapclose ranged enemies and how removing reflect from Wings is going to make it worse?...
I don't see any Magplar or Magden who also have to be in close range complaining about this and they have it worse with no snare removal in their kit unlike DK's who have wings (pretty ironic), i play both these classes and gap closing is never an issue for me. I don't run a gap closer on any of my stam classes and neither do most people and it's rarely an issue. Yes even without major expedition. I don't know if you realize this but rarely do magsorcs or magblades actually attack you from 40 meters they almost always attack from close range especially when outnumbered, yeah there's snipetards but what makes you think you are the only ones entitled to dealing with them properly? They're a nuisance to everyone. Even if you actually do have this terrible issue then how is wings reflecting helping with that?

Defilted · April 2019

50% damage reduction is far from useless.

darkblue5 · April 2019

Real question is when would the 50% reduction apply? Likely before shields, no?

satanio · April 2019

Trancestor wrote: »

yeah there's snipetards but what makes you think you are the only ones entitled to dealing with them properly?

No entitlement, everyone can slot defensive posture, but wings are just better. Just like everyone can sneak, but cloak is just its better version.

Aurielle · April 2019

Trancestor wrote: »

I don't understand the MagDK sob story that they cant properly gapclose ranged enemies and how removing reflect from Wings is going to make it worse?...
I don't see any Magplar or Magden who also have to be in close range complaining about this and they have it worse with no snare removal in their kit unlike DK's who have wings (pretty ironic), i play both these classes and gap closing is never an issue for me. I don't run a gap closer on any of my stam classes and neither do most people and it's rarely an issue. Yes even without major expedition. I don't know if you realize this but rarely do magsorcs or magblades actually attack you from 40 meters they almost always attack from close range especially when outnumbered, yeah there's snipetards but what makes you think you are the only ones entitled to dealing with them properly? They're a nuisance to everyone. Even if you actually do have this terrible issue then how is wings reflecting helping with that?

Wings is OP, and they know it. I guess they fear that if they don’t cry loud enough, they won’t be able to continue to shut down entire play styles with little to no effort.

satanio · April 2019

Aurielle wrote: »

Wings is OP, and they know it. I guess they fear that if they don’t cry loud enough, they won’t be able to continue to shut down entire play styles with little to no effort.

You're just not being constructive right now. You're just butthurt that the playstyle that you want to play is not good enough against one of X builds. Well, hell, I would love to play some double snb stamDK and destroy people but I can't. Should I go and cry in some generic nb topic that I am unable to change my DK playstyle, so they should nerf XYZ?

Turning wings into plain % buff is uninteresting, not exciting and the most of all, boring. ONCE MORE: IF WINGS SPAM IS THE PROBLEM, GIVE IT STREAK/ROLL TREATMENT.

P.s.:Imagine that your precious cloak would be turned into "invisibility + you get 2sec of snare imunnity, you take 50% dmg of dots." Would you like that?

kalunte · April 2019

satanio wrote: »

P.s.:Imagine that your precious cloak would be turned into "invisibility + you get 2sec of snare imunnity, you take 50% dmg of dots." Would you like that?

i think that every decent nightblade would clap his hands to this as long as invisibility stop being broken from any random skill and effectivly lasts 2s

Minalan · April 2019

kalunte wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

P.s.:Imagine that your precious cloak would be turned into "invisibility + you get 2sec of snare imunnity, you take 50% dmg of dots." Would you like that?

i think that every decent nightblade would clap his hands to this as long as invisibility stop being broken from any random skill and effectivly lasts 2s

No doubt, that's a really bad comparison.

A "wings fatigue" won't work as well, because the skill lasts so long when it's not pressured. I mean what's the cost increase sickness, four seconds - on a four to six second skill? Not going to work, the devs are smart guys and figured this out already.

You really need something like a "minimum effective range" for wings, like - it doesn't protect you at all under 15 meters or so.

But then, if someone is attacking you that close with ranged, you know what to do about it...

Aurielle · April 2019

satanio wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Wings is OP, and they know it. I guess they fear that if they don’t cry loud enough, they won’t be able to continue to shut down entire play styles with little to no effort.

You're just not being constructive right now. You're just butthurt that the playstyle that you want to play is not good enough against one of X builds. Well, hell, I would love to play some double snb stamDK and destroy people but I can't. Should I go and cry in some generic nb topic that I am unable to change my DK playstyle, so they should nerf XYZ?

Turning wings into plain % buff is uninteresting, not exciting and the most of all, boring. ONCE MORE: IF WINGS SPAM IS THE PROBLEM, GIVE IT STREAK/ROLL TREATMENT.

P.s.:Imagine that your precious cloak would be turned into "invisibility + you get 2sec of snare imunnity, you take 50% dmg of dots." Would you like that?

LOL.

I’m not butt hurt, as my mNB generally has no issue taking out anything other than a wings spamming DK. Also, I hate Shadowy Disguise and hardly ever use it when I’m on my damage spec (I only use it to try to survive a little longer if my BG team wipes — and it usually doesn’t work, thanks to spin2win stamdens). My magNB wears full impen and is not built for ganking. In fact, I’d ditch the invisibility morph of cloak in a heartbeat for something that’s actually useful in BGs. To make Dark Cloak worthwhile, you have to invest heavily into health, which isn’t viable for damage. I’d love a version of cloak that purges and reduces incoming melee damage by x% (and to emphasize that again, before I trigger you, REDUCES incoming melee damage, not completely eliminates).

bardx86 · April 2019

DHale wrote: »

This might be the worst decision ever to ever be proposed. Its a defining class skill. Half the time it reflects nothing and stuff it is supposed to reflect it doesn't but wings used to work perfectly. Change it back to that.

You forget a cast time on shields. That was the worst.

satanio · April 2019

Minalan wrote: »

A "wings fatigue" won't work as well, because the skill lasts so long when it's not pressured. I mean what's the cost increase sickness, four seconds - on a four to six second skill? Not going to work, the devs are smart guys and figured this out already.

So now to prolong fatigue is impossible right? jesus maria. It's like you don't even try to hide that you just don't want effective reflect in DK toolkit.
Ok, let's stop this pointless ping pong of a discussion and wait for patch notes on 14th.