If crates were banned.

JinMori · April 2019

Take a look at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tycuOiGFD74

Remember bethesda and zos are both subsidiaries of zenimax, so remember this when they pull things like "buying" skyshards which is borderline p2w, they are testing the waters.

This post could get deleted, which would be quite telling, probably with a pathetic excuse like, this is not relevant to the game, even though the discussion is literally about microtransactions.

Emmagoldman · April 2019

MUST.........HAVE........30 reskinned mounts!!!!! Rainbow colors, we need rainbow colors!

NoTimeToWait · April 2019

JinMori wrote: »

Take a look at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tycuOiGFD74

Remember bethesda and zos are both subsidiaries of zenimax, so remember this when they pull things like "buying" skyshards which is borderline p2w, they are testing the waters.

This post could get deleted, which would be quite telling.

Lol, sometimes they say that they test waters on twitch streams, when talking about crown store. No secret here

Ragnarock41 · April 2019

Juhasow wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I'm fine with crown crates. I don't open them but at the same time I'm glad they found a way to fund development without going pay to win.

Pay to cosmetic or pay to skip is completely fine in my opinion. Gambling? As long as I don't have to.

But then again its annoying when I want something but its only on crown crates or crystals that come from crown crates. I just wanna buy whatever the heck I want directly.

Is buying vCR+3 carry run with all loot from there for 150 euro still skipping or already pay to win ?

I don't exactly care since thats not something done by zenimax. Players sell runs.

The question wasn't do You care or not. Also players sell many other things then runs but it is not core of the question. Is buying for real money stuff that is normally beyond reach for most of the players skipping or pay to win ?

How can it be pay to win if its something not enforced by developers? This is like saying account boosting exists in cs:go therefore its pay to win. I... you know what. I can't even... enough forums today.

Jayman1000 · April 2019

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

What is the issue with the gambling crates, everyone has to be over 18 to play don't they? Is it that they don't explicitly specify that it's gambling? because everyone knows that it is anyway. I don't have an issue with gambling in games as long as they are not targeted towards minors, which would be unethical and possibly illegal in some countries. At the end of the day, we are all adults, we make a choice on how we spend our disposable income and we don't need a nanny state to save us from our own impulsive desires thank you very much.

Because if you are doing gambling then you need to adhere to gambling laws. But by using loopholes in the law zos and other videogame companies using gambling practices, can avoid following gambling laws because they can claim that it is "technically not gambling", even though for all intent and purposes this is gambling.

Then isn't it the politicians' role to adjust those laws to include this new type of gambling? And until they do so ZoS and others are not actually breaking any laws? What, if any, current gambling laws are they breaking? I'm no expert in this area but from my cursory glance at the topic, they don't seem to be breaking any because there is no real-world financial payout or material prizes from the chance boxes. Until the laws are changed then these forms of gambling will continue.

You could also say that playing a trial for a chance to win something you want is also gambling, in this case you are paying with your time, and time=money, for a random chance, and yet because no real-world money is involved nobody says anything.

As long as this game remains targeted at adults, ie over 18, then I have no issue with it, if under 18s are playing, and I know they are, then it is for their parents to ensure they are not spending their money on gambling, as I do with my children.

Oh yeah sure it is the politicians job to make better laws. But videogame companies are still implementing gambling in their games by circumventing laws. They found a way to "break the law" without actually breaking it. I think it is a deplorable practice.

Actions aren't necessarily ok or fine just because they arent illegal; Im sure you can find many examples of that. You think gambling mechanics is fine, and you have the right to think so. I just don't think gambling mechanics is fine in games when they dont fall under the rules of gambling laws, that's the core of my opinion.

Additionally anything that involves skill is not gambling, so you cannot say that playing a trial is gambling. You cant get the rewards without using skills to get it.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · April 2019

if crates were banned...id throw a party that would never stop...khajiit stile

Rygonix · April 2019

The only way I'd be okay with Crates is if they added them in as loyalty rewards, just a little something extra for continued interest in the game. They used to do this when daily rewards were first introduced.

So long as they can the ability to buy them directly with real money I wouldn't mind them existing. But as it stands it's mobile-style nickel-and-diming attached to a non-mobile platform. Something that really should be mutually exclusive.

LittlePinkDot · April 2019

Tyralbin wrote: »

So Crown Crates could be made illegal but would this be the end of them; maybe not.

There is nothing to stop ZOS from adding them ingame for in game currencies.

I think they could also get round the legalities of the gambling laws if they offered them as part of a package (so many per month when you pay for ESO plus).

If they do both of the above the crates gained from ESO plus are actually a bonus perk of something you can buy ingame and therefore not classed as gambling but just a boosted game perk.

This would possibably generate extra interest in ESO+ and therefore extra income.

Just a thought but I cannot see any gaming company completely getting rid of something they have invested so much in but instead a different way of generating revenue from them.

This IMO is also a much more moral way of using them.

ESO is rated mature. Its not intended for kids. Adults are allowed to make their own choices. So I see no reason why they would be banned.

Tyralbin · April 2019

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

So Crown Crates could be made illegal but would this be the end of them; maybe not.

There is nothing to stop ZOS from adding them ingame for in game currencies.

I think they could also get round the legalities of the gambling laws if they offered them as part of a package (so many per month when you pay for ESO plus).

If they do both of the above the crates gained from ESO plus are actually a bonus perk of something you can buy ingame and therefore not classed as gambling but just a boosted game perk.

This would possibably generate extra interest in ESO+ and therefore extra income.

Just a thought but I cannot see any gaming company completely getting rid of something they have invested so much in but instead a different way of generating revenue from them.

This IMO is also a much more moral way of using them.

ESO is rated mature. Its not intended for kids. Adults are allowed to make their own choices. So I see no reason why they would be banned.

It isn't a case of whether we want them banning or not that wasn't what this thread is about. That choice has already been taken away from the Belgians.

There are also 14 others countries looking at doing the same and one state in the US. So our choice may be immaterial.

The idea behind this thread was could they be implemented in a way that would not be considered gambling.

TheValkyn · April 2019

rope_bunny wrote: »

Crown Crates aren't really gambling. If you don't get what you want, usually you can just extract the items you don't want in exchange for gems and get what you want that way with the exception of Radiant Apex Mounts.

They are 100% gambling. You pay your money and you take your chances.

Asys · April 2019

rope_bunny wrote: »

Crown Crates aren't really gambling. If you don't get what you want, usually you can just extract the items you don't want in exchange for gems and get what you want that way with the exception of Radiant Apex Mounts.

proof that the world is getiin more and more stupid

Tyralbin · April 2019

Oh and just to get the thread clear again for some it is titled "If Crown Crates Were Banned".

Not do you think they should be banned.

There is a big difference.

kargen27 · April 2019

Canned_Apples wrote: »

No, they are 100% Gambling. 100%.

If they were banned, then they'd sell costumes for $20 a piece- wait, they already do that.

Not gambling. You purchase a crate knowing it will contain at least four items and you get at least four items. Same as buying baseball card packs. You know how many cards you are going to get.

Elsonso · April 2019

kargen27 wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

No, they are 100% Gambling. 100%.

If they were banned, then they'd sell costumes for $20 a piece- wait, they already do that.

Not gambling. You purchase a crate knowing it will contain at least four items and you get at least four items.

Odd thing I noticed... You really don't hear anyone bragging about those consolation prizes that they get when they lose gambling with Crown Crates.

They brag about the mounts, particularly the Radiant Apex ones, or about the Gems that they farmed.

LittlePinkDot · April 2019

Tyralbin wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

So Crown Crates could be made illegal but would this be the end of them; maybe not.

There is nothing to stop ZOS from adding them ingame for in game currencies.

I think they could also get round the legalities of the gambling laws if they offered them as part of a package (so many per month when you pay for ESO plus).

If they do both of the above the crates gained from ESO plus are actually a bonus perk of something you can buy ingame and therefore not classed as gambling but just a boosted game perk.

This would possibably generate extra interest in ESO+ and therefore extra income.

Just a thought but I cannot see any gaming company completely getting rid of something they have invested so much in but instead a different way of generating revenue from them.

This IMO is also a much more moral way of using them.

ESO is rated mature. Its not intended for kids. Adults are allowed to make their own choices. So I see no reason why they would be banned.

It isn't a case of whether we want them banning or not that wasn't what this thread is about. That choice has already been taken away from the Belgians.

There are also 14 others countries looking at doing the same and one state in the US. So our choice may be immaterial.

The idea behind this thread was could they be implemented in a way that would not be considered gambling.

But wasnt the reason Belgium had a problem with it was because children cant gamble? Wasnt Starwars battlefront marketed to kids?

How is gambling in a MMO for adults any different than gambling with online slots or online poker, blackjack?

If its only for adults than it would be easy to launch a lawsuit for the ban being unconstitutional.

Sylvermynx · April 2019

I'd think they could be "marketed" as part of the ESO + option. If you sub, you get a crate a month (or more if you sub for longer periods - 3 for 3 month sub, 6 for 6 month etc.); if you don't sub they just aren't available at all. A "gift" for a sub as it were.

Is the US state UT by chance? Good lord the stupids that go on here about gambling and games....

TheValar85 · April 2019

INB4LOCK pls.

Siohwenoeht · April 2019

Personally I have a tough time with this issue.
Crates aren't a problem for me, I sub so crowns build up and when there's nothing in the store I want outright, I may get a set of crates.

My conflict comes from a perspective that I'd rather not have too much regulation in my life lol. Plus relying on legislation to fix mental health issue, if it's to the point of a gambling addiction, doesn't sit well at all.

Maybe I'm too old school but if you can't regulate your own behavior then it's time to get help, not ban things that the majority have no issue regulating on their own.

Just my 2 cents.

LittlePinkDot · April 2019

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Personally I have a tough time with this issue.
Crates aren't a problem for me, I sub so crowns build up and when there's nothing in the store I want outright, I may get a set of crates.

My conflict comes from a perspective that I'd rather not have too much regulation in my life lol. Plus relying on legislation to fix mental health issue, if it's to the point of a gambling addiction, doesn't sit well at all.

Maybe I'm too old school but if you can't regulate your own behavior then it's time to get help, not ban things that the majority have no issue regulating on their own.

Just my 2 cents.

You are absolutely right. But personal responsibility isnt in vogue right now. Whining and blaming random people for supposed "privilege", and demanding free stuff is whats in vogue these days.

Nerouyn · April 2019

redspecter23 wrote: »

The crates are designed to be sold for money. They could add them to the game for in game currencies, but they don't benefit from that. Putting them in the game might seem great from a player point of view, but spinning that wheel over and over again and getting trash (even if it only cost in game currency) would get old fast. RNG has never been overly popular as a reward method.

I love neither gambling nor crates but RNG as a reward method is baked into ESO's DNA. Same goes for probably the vast majority of RPGs.

Loot from any mob you kill - random.

Dungeon rewards - random.

Daily rewards - random

etc. etc. et.

As a gold sink something like crates could potentially work, but there's the problem of the rewards themselves. Compared to other IPs, Elder Scrolls is quite restrained, artistically speaking. Many of the "elite" rewards in crates are of much lower value to me than the most basic mounts from the crown store. Because the basic ones make the game feel more like Tamriel.

Tyralbin · April 2019

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

So Crown Crates could be made illegal but would this be the end of them; maybe not.

There is nothing to stop ZOS from adding them ingame for in game currencies.

I think they could also get round the legalities of the gambling laws if they offered them as part of a package (so many per month when you pay for ESO plus).

If they do both of the above the crates gained from ESO plus are actually a bonus perk of something you can buy ingame and therefore not classed as gambling but just a boosted game perk.

This would possibably generate extra interest in ESO+ and therefore extra income.

Just a thought but I cannot see any gaming company completely getting rid of something they have invested so much in but instead a different way of generating revenue from them.

This IMO is also a much more moral way of using them.

ESO is rated mature. Its not intended for kids. Adults are allowed to make their own choices. So I see no reason why they would be banned.

It isn't a case of whether we want them banning or not that wasn't what this thread is about. That choice has already been taken away from the Belgians.

There are also 14 others countries looking at doing the same and one state in the US. So our choice may be immaterial.

The idea behind this thread was could they be implemented in a way that would not be considered gambling.

But wasnt the reason Belgium had a problem with it was because children cant gamble? Wasnt Starwars battlefront marketed to kids?

How is gambling in a MMO for adults any different than gambling with online slots or online poker, blackjack?

If its only for adults than it would be easy to launch a lawsuit for the ban being unconstitutional.

I don't know the reason that they were banned there and again the point of the thread isn't whether they should be banned or not. It is if they were banned would they still exist in any form.

My OP did not ask whether one thought they should be banned and as I have said we may not have any say in the matter if they are made illegal.

Also, EA defied the ban for months then decide to agree in the end to follow it.

Don't you think that if there were any loopholes they would have been found by their lawyers?

LittlePinkDot · April 2019

Tyralbin wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

So Crown Crates could be made illegal but would this be the end of them; maybe not.

There is nothing to stop ZOS from adding them ingame for in game currencies.

I think they could also get round the legalities of the gambling laws if they offered them as part of a package (so many per month when you pay for ESO plus).

If they do both of the above the crates gained from ESO plus are actually a bonus perk of something you can buy ingame and therefore not classed as gambling but just a boosted game perk.

This would possibably generate extra interest in ESO+ and therefore extra income.

Just a thought but I cannot see any gaming company completely getting rid of something they have invested so much in but instead a different way of generating revenue from them.

This IMO is also a much more moral way of using them.

ESO is rated mature. Its not intended for kids. Adults are allowed to make their own choices. So I see no reason why they would be banned.

It isn't a case of whether we want them banning or not that wasn't what this thread is about. That choice has already been taken away from the Belgians.

There are also 14 others countries looking at doing the same and one state in the US. So our choice may be immaterial.

The idea behind this thread was could they be implemented in a way that would not be considered gambling.

But wasnt the reason Belgium had a problem with it was because children cant gamble? Wasnt Starwars battlefront marketed to kids?

How is gambling in a MMO for adults any different than gambling with online slots or online poker, blackjack?

If its only for adults than it would be easy to launch a lawsuit for the ban being unconstitutional.

I don't know the reason that they were banned there and again the point of the thread isn't whether they should be banned or not. It is if they were banned would they still exist in any form.

My OP did not ask whether one thought they should be banned and as I have said we may not have any say in the matter if they are made illegal.

Also, EA defied the ban for months then decide to agree in the end to follow it.

Don't you think that if there were any loopholes they would have been found by their lawyers?

Its not about finding loop holes. Its about if they feel confident enough that they will sell enough copies of a game if its 21+ to play in the states and 18 or 19+ everywhere else. They cannot back track on games that have already been released. But they can easily market any future games as adult only.
ESO will never have this problem because it was always been intended for adults.

A side note.. I find it funny that the Netherlands banned loot crate considering you can go into what they call "a smart shop" and buy "truffles" made from magic mushrooms, take the strongest dose one and you are practically on a bull blown acid trip in Amsterdam... Perfectly legal.

kargen27 · April 2019

lordrichter wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

No, they are 100% Gambling. 100%.

If they were banned, then they'd sell costumes for $20 a piece- wait, they already do that.

Not gambling. You purchase a crate knowing it will contain at least four items and you get at least four items.

Odd thing I noticed... You really don't hear anyone bragging about those consolation prizes that they get when they lose gambling with Crown Crates. They brag about the mounts, particularly the Radiant Apex ones, or about the Gems that they farmed.

Yeah same way you don't hear kids bragging about getting that utility infielder that only gets in late in the game as a situational switch. Still isn't gambling. You get exactly as many items as you expect to get. I don't like that the game has crown exclusive items and I don't like how the crown crate system works. I also realize people with personalities susceptible to addictions could develop a real problem with crown crates. All that still doesn't make buying a crate gambling.

todokete · April 2019

NoTimeToWait wrote: »

If crates were banned, Pacrooti would be one sad cat

Which is totally a good thing for the lore of the game

todokete · April 2019

TheValkyn wrote: »

rope_bunny wrote: »

Crown Crates aren't really gambling. If you don't get what you want, usually you can just extract the items you don't want in exchange for gems and get what you want that way with the exception of Radiant Apex Mounts.

They are 100% gambling. You pay your money and you take your chances.

Not rly because you buy with gems

Nerouyn · April 2019

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Oh yeah sure it is the politicians job to make better laws. But videogame companies are still implementing gambling in their games by circumventing laws. They found a way to "break the law" without actually breaking it. I think it is a deplorable practice.

Free market capitalism is an all out war.

If even one gaming company does it and others don't, that disadvantages the others. Should employees potentially face losing their job because their company chose the moral high ground? Should gamers potentially face losing their game?

I'm anti gambling boxes but responsibility here lies squarely with lawmakers.

Tipsy · April 2019

To be honest,I think the whole business with the crates has gotten way out of hand at this point.
Totally thrown their initial philosophy overboard.
The state of the servers and group finder has been shameful for a long time,yet they manage to update their crown store with shiny unicorn droppings every week.
Greed is destroying this game cause its no longer about quality of game and improving features
but nonsensical pixel sparkels ,unicorn droppings available in a variety of colors.
It is a slap in the face of the longtime eso+ members. And im sorry to say this but they have it coming if it gets banned.
No wonder it keeps getting worse with so many even defending these appaling practices
I know many players that find these practices appaling.And you can keep milking it all you like with so many willing to sell their soul for a pixel dropping
but know that one day it will backfire badly and the image of the company would be beyond repair.
So I'd rethink a few things and actually shift focus more towards improving performance and gameplay before its too late

Tyralbin · April 2019

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

So Crown Crates could be made illegal but would this be the end of them; maybe not.

There is nothing to stop ZOS from adding them ingame for in game currencies.

I think they could also get round the legalities of the gambling laws if they offered them as part of a package (so many per month when you pay for ESO plus).

If they do both of the above the crates gained from ESO plus are actually a bonus perk of something you can buy ingame and therefore not classed as gambling but just a boosted game perk.

This would possibably generate extra interest in ESO+ and therefore extra income.

Just a thought but I cannot see any gaming company completely getting rid of something they have invested so much in but instead a different way of generating revenue from them.

This IMO is also a much more moral way of using them.

ESO is rated mature. Its not intended for kids. Adults are allowed to make their own choices. So I see no reason why they would be banned.

It isn't a case of whether we want them banning or not that wasn't what this thread is about. That choice has already been taken away from the Belgians.

There are also 14 others countries looking at doing the same and one state in the US. So our choice may be immaterial.

The idea behind this thread was could they be implemented in a way that would not be considered gambling.

But wasnt the reason Belgium had a problem with it was because children cant gamble? Wasnt Starwars battlefront marketed to kids?

How is gambling in a MMO for adults any different than gambling with online slots or online poker, blackjack?

If its only for adults than it would be easy to launch a lawsuit for the ban being unconstitutional.

I don't know the reason that they were banned there and again the point of the thread isn't whether they should be banned or not. It is if they were banned would they still exist in any form.

My OP did not ask whether one thought they should be banned and as I have said we may not have any say in the matter if they are made illegal.

Also, EA defied the ban for months then decide to agree in the end to follow it.

Don't you think that if there were any loopholes they would have been found by their lawyers?

Its not about finding loop holes. Its about if they feel confident enough that they will sell enough copies of a game if its 21+ to play in the states and 18 or 19+ everywhere else. They cannot back track on games that have already been released. But they can easily market any future games as adult only.
ESO will never have this problem because it was always been intended for adults.

A side note.. I find it funny that the Netherlands banned loot crate considering you can go into what they call "a smart shop" and buy "truffles" made from magic mushrooms, take the strongest dose one and you are practically on a bull blown acid trip in Amsterdam... Perfectly legal.

This is a silly reply in itself. Like I have said 14 other countries are looking at doing just the same as Belgium and did not the Belgians set this law against games already released.

If they can do it there don't you think they can do it anywhere else.

There is also a bill being put forward in the EU parliment as well so it could become european law.

Oh and to those that say they are not gambling.

A raffle is considered gambling in the UK and I am sure it is in the US as well and so is bingo for prizes (known as party bingo in the UK) both have predetermined prizes.

Oh and as for paying for crates with gems not being gambling because gems are not money then how do you buy the gems it isn't with in game currency.

As I have stated before I worked in the gaming industry for 25 years and studied the gaming act I know what I am talking about in regards to gambling.

The only loopholes in the gaming act at the moment are in regards to mobile phones (micro transaction on games - yes these are going to be reclassified as gambling were games are concerned if the law is passed) and internet game transactions. Both of these were supposed to have been discussed in parliment before brexit.

I have stated before this was supposed to be an hypothetical/rhetorical question about if crown crates were banned.

I myself have not stated what my stance is on crown crates and won't as this thread is not for that there have been many before.

Will try to get it back on track.

The question is "If crown crates are banned will they still exist in another form"

Tyralbin · April 2019

Turelus wrote: »

rope_bunny wrote: »

Crown Crates aren't really gambling. If you don't get what you want, usually you can just extract the items you don't want in exchange for gems and get what you want that way with the exception of Radiant Apex Mounts.

They're not gambling as covered by law, but they are exactly the same methods used in some gabling. It's essentially gambling that doesn't have to be regulated because you're buying a product, not trying to get more money back.

The only way to obtain gems is to buy crates, and that's a pretty bad rate.
Radiant Apex Mounts can't be purchased for gems, thus you have to keep playing to win.
You can't choose to turn everything into gems, only consumables or duplicates.
There are now gem exclusive items which require you to constantly buy crates to get the currency needed to buy the items.

It's predatory and insulting business model used to extract as much money from the customer as possible.

If you want information on drop rates you can check: https://www.crowncrates.com
Also consider signing up to Faunter's Patreon to support the great work they do giving players the data ZOS won't on crates.

Exactly @Turelus that is why they are trying to legislate to make them a part of the law.

Oh and here in the UK they have managed to do something later this year that nobody foresaw. Block all *** sites without the use of ID (ie. credit/bank card) including free sites.

Not illegal to visit those sites but they will know where you have been.

So if they can legislate that into law it isn't going to be that hard to do the crown crates.

There is still a chance though that Belgium will be the only country to do this.

Jamdarius · April 2019

But to be honest even the current Crown Crates system is bad, when there were free crates events and we could get free crown gems by converting useless junk I didn't mind buying 1-5 crates for the cool stuff when I was missing some gems for it.

Now I will surely not buy loads of them to get 600 crown gems pet as it is insane and 2 random ammount of gems.
Random ammount of gems we can get is pure gambling, crates are gambling as we have no clue what we will get from them, twitch crates almost never drop so most do not even bother watching it anymore.

So basically we buy random crates, so that we can either get random stuff or get random new currency to buy limited stuff.
How twisted is that! I would say that this is pure gambling casino style kind of thing, not to mention it is shady business (I mean look at that Khajiit dealing cards, I bet he scams us!).