Reworking the Champion Point System to reduce Power Creep

CelticStones · March 2019

hmmm, some good old fashioned proportional representation seems to be needed. sorry to get political. most of these posts are from the high achievers/weavers/devas. the class reps seem to be all elite players. I dont know the split in game demography, but where is the voice for the 50% that arn't casuals, but arn't elite. It feels like ZOS is thinking more about this group recently with the new changes to DLCs. Someone mentioned light attack weaving and Ele weapon. Both used in almost every build from certain key players in ESO. I just cant get it to work, old age, bad ping, and chronic timing drops my dps down to low 30s on a good day, 20 on a bad. I think that probably about middle ground for the majority of players, most of whom dont read these forums or respec CP every time they change zone/activity. I have nothing to add to help the problem of power creep, but wish it could creep my way a bit more.

BuddyAces · March 2019

CelticStones wrote: »

hmmm, some good old fashioned proportional representation seems to be needed. sorry to get political. most of these posts are from the high achievers/weavers/devas. the class reps seem to be all elite players. I dont know the split in game demography, but where is the voice for the 50% that arn't casuals, but arn't elite. It feels like ZOS is thinking more about this group recently with the new changes to DLCs. Someone mentioned light attack weaving and Ele weapon. Both used in almost every build from certain key players in ESO. I just cant get it to work, old age, bad ping, and chronic timing drops my dps down to low 30s on a good day, 20 on a bad. I think that probably about middle ground for the majority of players, most of whom dont read these forums or respec CP every time they change zone/activity. I have nothing to add to help the problem of power creep, but wish it could creep my way a bit more.

Only thing stopping you from getting any better is practice. Lame answer I know but that's all it is. Go sit in front of a dummy once or twice (or more if you can) a gaming session. Don't get flustered. You'll start to notice how much better you get in even a few days. If you're having problems, make a thread about it. There's enough willing folks to help!

Darkstorne · March 2019

Wow, this thread was a really interesting read. Certainly makes you aware the solution isn't going to be a simple one.

As a more casual player, but who has played since the beta (three level 50s, CP 314, altoholic) I've got to say that even at my CP level the game feels absurdly easy. I can create a new character, spend that average amount of CP, and already steamroll content. Add blue crafted gear to that and I can literally play through combat encounters with my eyes closed. I don't think CP is to blame for that entirely if the game is crazy easy at 314, let alone 810.

That said, I really enjoy the CP skills that are more QoL focused, rather than combat focused. Most of these are the "unlocks" (like at 30, 75, 120 in a tree etc) rather than the invested stars, but things like faster gathering speed, chance to harvest double resources, more gold found in chests, higher quality items in chests, faster movement speed etc... that's what CP should be imo. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm happy to have someone explain why, but I think the game would be much better if CP levels focused entirely on QoL like that, and combat performance was left to 1-50 stats and how you spend your attributes/skills, which gear you use, what colour your gear is etc. CP skills would then be account wide bonuses to QoL, adding new effects like XP gain for different activities (killing mobs, exploration, quests), carrying capacity improvements, movement and mounted movement speed, buy/sell for better prices to merchants, the kind of things that make the game "feel" more fun for both mains and alts, without massively skewing the game balance. Alts would still be able to steamroll content because of crafted gear from your mains, and thanks to CP perks like XP gain, movement speed, and bag space, still feel like a smoother levelling experience.

I just feel like game balance is really off right now, and while I don't think CP is the main cause of that due to my experiences at a lower CP level, I can't imagine it makes the devs' jobs any easier. I'd much rather see game content that is balanced well from 1-50, and CP being a bonus to how the game feels rather than an additional power gain on top of levels.

I know a lot of people would completely freak out over this change though. Some people want to hold onto OP combat strength now matter how it affects gameplay as a whole, even though they'd still be OP in purple and golds at level 50 when it comes to overland combat even with QoL-only CP. It would still unavoidably be seen as a nerf no matter the benefits to game balance, so I don't envy ZOS' situation.

Morgul667 · March 2019

Lets kill the tip of the iceberg cause thats gonna solve our problem right

Masel · March 2019

CelticStones wrote: »

hmmm, some good old fashioned proportional representation seems to be needed. sorry to get political. most of these posts are from the high achievers/weavers/devas. the class reps seem to be all elite players. I dont know the split in game demography, but where is the voice for the 50% that arn't casuals, but arn't elite. It feels like ZOS is thinking more about this group recently with the new changes to DLCs. Someone mentioned light attack weaving and Ele weapon. Both used in almost every build from certain key players in ESO. I just cant get it to work, old age, bad ping, and chronic timing drops my dps down to low 30s on a good day, 20 on a bad. I think that probably about middle ground for the majority of players, most of whom dont read these forums or respec CP every time they change zone/activity. I have nothing to add to help the problem of power creep, but wish it could creep my way a bit more.

I'm Not an Elite player. I dont score chase. If you look at my YouTube channel you'll find more content tailored towards newer players than towards endgame players, exactly because I think that there needs to be more content for these players.

Dubhliam · March 2019

Masel wrote: »

All I wanted to do is to provide a system That reduces the power of optimised groups overall by introducing tradeoffs.

And I said, in order to improve the floor the game needs to explain itself better. New players have no idea how to build themselves because noone explains it to them from the very beginning. The tutorial isnt helpful in that either.

I see where you are going with this, but I have to agree with @code65536

Tradeoffs are a bad idea, and would only further increase the gap between the ceiling, average and especially the bottom.
You'd be surprised how much lesser experienced players put emphasis on defense.
If they keep dying in dungeons, do you think their immediate reaction is to:
a) identify what killed them and try to look out for those dangers
b) invest more heavily into defense
c) blame other members of the group for not doing their part

I can tell you from experience, the majority of players will either react with B or C, but only a handful of players are actually self aware of their mistakes and performance.

So, if you give players the option of tradeoffs, only the bottom and possibly middle will actually take that option to trade damage.
All the while, the ceiling will be even more hostile for anyone trying to get into an endgame raiding group because of the new expectations.

Joy_Division · March 2019

code65536 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Hodor's no-CP run

I never understood the point of zero CP. Someone who hits level 50 for the first time start out at 10 CP, not zero. And with the initial enlightenment and the absurdly low cost of the early points, they'll be at 160 CP within a week or two. But I guess zero is a catchier headline.

Eventually, they tried it with 300 CP, and you can see the group DPS increase from 260K to 400K--as expected, as those early CPs are very powerful--by design. Unfortunately they didn't try the original CP cap of 501. I have a sneaking suspicion that at 501 CP, they probably wouldn't have noticed that much of a difference. But I suppose that wouldn't have been as entertaining to watch.

Well, here are some points to consider:
When Hodor got the world's first vMoL speed run in 2016, they had 501 CP. And from the screenshots and videos of that clear, you can see that DPS was roughly around 30K per player on Rakkhat. Yesterday's no-CP Rakkhat pulls had DPS levels that were similar. So 501 CP in 2016 was doing around the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019. Obviously, there's been a lot of power added, and it's obviously not from CP.

Despite limiting themselves to 300 CP, they still cleared HM. On pad 5. The world-first clear of HM wasn't pad 5. It wasn't pad 7. It went through Lunar. That was during the Shadows of the Hist patch, when the CP cap was 531. If CP is so overpowered, and people back then had 231 more CP than the run yesterday, why did people back then not do pad 5 burns? Not even pad 7 lunar skips?

The correct takeaway from that little demonstration yesterday is that
The early CPs--the ones that are very easily accessible to players--are pretty powerful. As intended and as expected.

There's been a lot of power that's been added since 2016. And it's not from CP.

So, again, why do topics about CP power creep even exist? I will reiterate that CP is not perfect, and that there are things with CP that need to be addressed, like how CP restricts combat (e.g., remember the days when stam DKs did fire damage and that wasn't a problem?). But CP as the source of power creep? If someone believes that, then boy have I got a bridge to sell to them.

They did the no CP run in part because the devs asked them to. ZOS wanted to know the difference. It's not something Hodor did because they wanted to show off or because they were seeking a challenge.

Part of the problem with talks of "power creep" and CP is that some people mean different things when they refer to "power creep." It is clear from this thread that it is DPS that is mentioned mostly, much more so than say the large amount of mitigation it provides, which is not surprising given how DPS focused ESO is.

I can say that when I refer to CP power creep, I am mostly concerned with the red and green trees, much more than DPS, because I primarily PvP and those red and green trees have a huge effect on the difference between no CP and CP gameplay. And that effect is real because when ZOS tried to put in CP battlegrounds, the community overwhelmingly responded negatively and they had to switch it back. CP and CP alone is 100% responsible for dividing the PvP community into two and that is by far my biggest complaint about the system.

code65536 · March 2019

Joy_Division wrote: »

They did the no CP run in part because the devs asked them to. ZOS wanted to know the difference. It's not something Hodor did because they wanted to show off or because they were seeking a challenge.

Part of the problem with talks of "power creep" and CP is that some people mean different things when they refer to "power creep." It is clear from this thread that it is DPS that is mentioned mostly, much more so than say the large amount of mitigation it provides, which is not surprising given how DPS focused ESO is.

I can say that when I refer to CP power creep, I am mostly concerned with the red and green trees, much more than DPS, because I primarily PvP and those red and green trees have a huge effect on the difference between no CP and CP gameplay. And that effect is real because when ZOS tried to put in CP battlegrounds, the community overwhelmingly responded negatively and they had to switch it back. CP and CP alone is 100% responsible for dividing the PvP community into two and that is by far my biggest complaint about the system.

Thanks for the clarification. That's a fair point, particularly since the Morrowind adjustments were a buff for the red points.

Illuvatarr · March 2019

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.

But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

Why 300? 510 was the cap in late 2015 when CP was initially capped. All of those changes you mentioned happened long after the CP was capped at 510. Many of them within the past year.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are definitely balance problems in this game, but the the amount of scapegoating on CP is bewildering, particularly from class representatives (not just you).

Well then tell me what we should do instead. What do you suggest to do to stop the power gap AND power creep? I've been advocating nerfs instead of buffs to many things across the board to prevent exactly that, and I've never claimed anywhere that cp is the only factor here. Dont assume things about me that you cannot know about.

Sure, I can come up with one very easy solution right now to nerf power in a way that hits the top more than the mainstream or the floor: Any light attacks that land within 2s of a direct damage ability will do only half damage.

While i unterstand the point again, consider how that change would be received by the endgame community.

They'll rage because they wont be rewarded for a more complex, harder to execute playstyle. Light attacks wont be worth it anymore. Halving their damage (which is what this would achieve) will make heavy attacks outperform them easily, since they wont be punished for weaving these.

Youd have to tackle animation canceling as a whole to alleviate that problem.

I meant light/heavy attacks (I edited my post).

And that's the whole point. Yes, you should reward skillful play. But not to the ridiculous extent it is now. ZOS keeps adding things that "reward skillful play", and that's what's causing the power gap. Take, for example, Elemental Weapon. It does great damage. It costs less than other spammables. And it requires perfect weaving. Great, so now the ceiling have a newer, better spammable, while everyone else... well, Elemental Weapon doesn't really do much for the mainstream, does it?

There comes a point when you have to say "enough" and put a cap to how much skillful play rewards players. With a proposed change like this, weaving is still rewarding. And you will still need to do it if you want to be the absolute best. But that reward won't be as outsized as it currently is.

I like weaving. I've mained a magblade since 2015, so weaving is essential, and I like that I'm rewarded for weaving. I don't want to get rid of it. But I also recognize that it requires difficult finger gymnastics and that there are many, many people in this game that can't do it reliably. So, yes, I want to see the rewards for weaving to be reduced. I don't want to see it eliminated. But I don't like it being this giant elephant of a power gap creator, either.

Are you serious? This post epitomizes everything wrong in the world. I wonder if Barcelona will try to break Messi’s legs so he is not rewarded for skillful play...

code65536 · March 2019

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Are you serious? This post epitomizes everything wrong in the world. I wonder if Barcelona will try to break Messi’s legs so he is not rewarded for skillful play...

I am absolutely serious.

And it would appear that you have some difficulty with reading comprehension. I never advocated not rewarding skillful play. I advocated reducing the rewards for skillful play. There is a subtle but important difference. Rewarding skill is necessary for there to be competition. But that does not mean that the magnitudes of those rewards should be so much that they create game-breaking balance issues.