Reworking the Champion Point System to reduce Power Creep

code65536

The CP system is far from perfect, and reform of the system is warranted. The discrepancy between PvE and PvP CP, for example. And I do agree that it's frustrating that some power was shifted out of the base combat system into CP. Spell critical, for example, used to be higher in the base system. But when CP was introduced, it was reduced and moved into a CP passive star. This introduces some interesting problems like that crit is just gone for people who play BGs or a non-CP campaign.

If I came across as a full-throated defender of CP, then that is my fault. My point isn't that CP is perfect, but rather that there are "bigger fish to fry" in terms of combat problems, and it irks me somewhat that so much of the discussion about combat is zeroed in on CP and that there is comparatively less that gets said about other problems. To that end, I see CP as having become somewhat of a distraction. Again, I think CP could use a rework--but such a thing will not address many of the problems we see, and I don't think it should be the priority that people think that it is.

My second objection is in the specific nature of the proposal in this thread. I strongly believe that the biggest problem facing the game right now is the power gap. The power creep that people complain about has not been applied evenly--the ceiling has reaped the fruits of many changes while the mainstream--the people I meet in Group Finder, in zone chat, in trade/social guilds, etc.--haven't really seen much of the power. This leads to loud complaints about content becoming boring and loud complaints about new content being increasingly frustrating and inaccessible. And it is with this concern in mind that I evaluated the proposal in this thread.

Grandma

say it again for people in the back:

Power creep is a result of ridiculously powerful sets ZOS keeps making ala earthgore, siroria, olorime, zaans, relequens, velidreth, etc. and the fact that people who get this gear know how to play the game better than people who are cp 160, not cp actually mattering because it's a pathetic flat distance as it is compared to 99% mmos.

idk

Joy_Division wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are definitely balance problems in this game, but the the amount of scapegoating on CP is bewildering, particularly from class representatives (not just you).

@code65536

I won't speak for the OP or other representatives, but it is not accurate to characterize my objection to CP as scapegoating.

TBH you have blamed CP on a number of things. Off the top of my head you blamed CP as being the reason Zos reduced the resource return from shards when it was sustain in CP that was severally gutted.

As Code has stated previously, what CP now provides is rather pitiful to what other sources in the game provide.

That is just related to one of your comments where you blame CP for things, but seemingly fail to see the big picture. It surprised me to read some of your posts considering you are a class rep. I can provide some references.

I do not doubt I have said some things about the CP system out of frustration with it that, after reflection, I would disagree with now.

But as much as I am frustrated with it, I have not and will not advocate to ZOS in my position as a Rep that ZOS should just do away with it or just flat out nerf the power we get from it. I haven't and won';t because I dislike no CP PvP because it just feels like everything is nerfed, so I have zero desire to see that extended to the base game. This isn;t to say changes aren;t needed, but just flat out getting rid of it or nerfing it is too simplistic. What we get (or at least most of it) from CP makes the game better, my issue is more the mechanics in how CP gives that power and dividing the PvP community. I hope that is clear.

First, it is good to know, but you can probably see from many forum posts from many players where Code's comment would come from.

Second, I am one of the first that would say Zos did not think CP through very well and the fact they thought the average player would have reached the cap in less than 2 years and that cap was the full 3600 points is a great example.

However, based on their comments in these forums, including this thread, I would suggest Code is one that Zos should seek feedback from while considering their efforts to review CP and solidifying a vision for combat in the game. With no offense to you or OP, I cannot think of anyone who looks at aspects and issues I the game in such a wholistic manner of the systems but also seems to see it from the various levels and interests of the player base.

I do not think Zos sees the entire picture when they made changes, but looks at things very narrowly. It is both my hope and concern that the management of this game, combat wise with stabilize with the reviews that are on going ATM, but it needs good critical thinking and consideration of the entire picture.

code65536

idk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are definitely balance problems in this game, but the the amount of scapegoating on CP is bewildering, particularly from class representatives (not just you).

@code65536

I won't speak for the OP or other representatives, but it is not accurate to characterize my objection to CP as scapegoating.

TBH you have blamed CP on a number of things. Off the top of my head you blamed CP as being the reason Zos reduced the resource return from shards when it was sustain in CP that was severally gutted.

As Code has stated previously, what CP now provides is rather pitiful to what other sources in the game provide.

That is just related to one of your comments where you blame CP for things, but seemingly fail to see the big picture. It surprised me to read some of your posts considering you are a class rep. I can provide some references.

I do not doubt I have said some things about the CP system out of frustration with it that, after reflection, I would disagree with now.

But as much as I am frustrated with it, I have not and will not advocate to ZOS in my position as a Rep that ZOS should just do away with it or just flat out nerf the power we get from it. I haven't and won';t because I dislike no CP PvP because it just feels like everything is nerfed, so I have zero desire to see that extended to the base game. This isn;t to say changes aren;t needed, but just flat out getting rid of it or nerfing it is too simplistic. What we get (or at least most of it) from CP makes the game better, my issue is more the mechanics in how CP gives that power and dividing the PvP community. I hope that is clear.

First, it is good to know, but you can probably see from many forum posts from many players where Code's comment would come from.

Second, I am one of the first that would say Zos did not think CP through very well and the fact they thought the average player would have reached the cap in less than 2 years and that cap was the full 3600 points is a great example.

However, based on their comments in these forums, including this thread, I would suggest Code is one that Zos should seek feedback from while considering their efforts to review CP and solidifying a vision for combat in the game. With no offense to you or OP, I cannot think of anyone who looks at aspects and issues I the game in such a wholistic manner of the systems but also seems to see it from the various levels and interests of the player base.

I do not think Zos sees the entire picture when they made changes, but looks at things very narrowly. It is both my hope and concern that the management of this game, combat wise with stabilize with the reviews that are on going ATM, but it needs good critical thinking and consideration of the entire picture.

Oh, good heavens no. I have my own flaws. I will readily admit that, as someone who mostly PvEs and participates in PvP in a largely casual capacity, I have blind spots there. Everyone's perspectives should be taken into account.

Nord_Raseri

I'm mediocre, like most players, so I'd like to keep any power I have thank you.

Monsieur

There’s nothing wrong with older content becoming easier because of power creep. It helps those who are at the floor complete that content.
The biggest issue for those at the floor is that because of power creep, ZOS keeps creating increasingly difficult content to satisfy those who keep saying that the game is too easy.
Without another 300 CP how are those who are only now just able to complete veteran craglorn trials expected to complete veteran cloudrest?

If CP is adjusted, is the content difficulty going to be equally adjusted? Because if not, the situation just as code said where the ceiling can complete the hardest content and the floor can’t, is just going to get worse.

Why buy the latest dungeon dlc when you can’t complete it? Just to satisfy that top 2% of players?

idk

code65536 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are definitely balance problems in this game, but the the amount of scapegoating on CP is bewildering, particularly from class representatives (not just you).

@code65536

I won't speak for the OP or other representatives, but it is not accurate to characterize my objection to CP as scapegoating.

TBH you have blamed CP on a number of things. Off the top of my head you blamed CP as being the reason Zos reduced the resource return from shards when it was sustain in CP that was severally gutted.

As Code has stated previously, what CP now provides is rather pitiful to what other sources in the game provide.

That is just related to one of your comments where you blame CP for things, but seemingly fail to see the big picture. It surprised me to read some of your posts considering you are a class rep. I can provide some references.

I do not doubt I have said some things about the CP system out of frustration with it that, after reflection, I would disagree with now.

But as much as I am frustrated with it, I have not and will not advocate to ZOS in my position as a Rep that ZOS should just do away with it or just flat out nerf the power we get from it. I haven't and won';t because I dislike no CP PvP because it just feels like everything is nerfed, so I have zero desire to see that extended to the base game. This isn;t to say changes aren;t needed, but just flat out getting rid of it or nerfing it is too simplistic. What we get (or at least most of it) from CP makes the game better, my issue is more the mechanics in how CP gives that power and dividing the PvP community. I hope that is clear.

First, it is good to know, but you can probably see from many forum posts from many players where Code's comment would come from.

Second, I am one of the first that would say Zos did not think CP through very well and the fact they thought the average player would have reached the cap in less than 2 years and that cap was the full 3600 points is a great example.

However, based on their comments in these forums, including this thread, I would suggest Code is one that Zos should seek feedback from while considering their efforts to review CP and solidifying a vision for combat in the game. With no offense to you or OP, I cannot think of anyone who looks at aspects and issues I the game in such a wholistic manner of the systems but also seems to see it from the various levels and interests of the player base.

I do not think Zos sees the entire picture when they made changes, but looks at things very narrowly. It is both my hope and concern that the management of this game, combat wise with stabilize with the reviews that are on going ATM, but it needs good critical thinking and consideration of the entire picture.

Oh, good heavens no. I have my own flaws. I will readily admit that, as someone who mostly PvEs and participates in PvP in a largely casual capacity, I have blind spots there. Everyone's perspectives should be taken into account.

Even the divines are not perfect. I just feel that you do have an eye on details that are not seen by others when they present an argument or suggestion. You also have a particularly approach to conveying your ideas and thoughts in a very succinct and intelligible manner

I just think you are a credible person for the role and am surprised that are not at the table already unless you turned down the offer.

pieratsos

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food and 5 pc
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.
6. Ancient knowledge change.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

A very, very, small contributor if you set the stat point at Morrowind.

Your idea ignores the real issue and pretends CP is a big contributer. I suggest heading Codes words of wisdom. They seem to have a good grasp and understanding of the actual issue..

Small contributor? You know what's funny about codes words of wisdom and pretty much everyone who think that cp is fine and it's everything because of gear or whatever. It's that they ignore the fact that cp multiplies everything you do. Do you understand what that means? The better you do, the more power you get from cp. This is literally the definition of power creep. It gives an insane amount of power and power creep. You can literally stop gaining cp but cp won't stop giving u more power.

Tasear

I really like idea of tradeoffs a lot. I never thought I would say this but having ability to have it all makes things less fun.

I only galanced at this but would like to mention DK healers use shields as a style of support so this would upset them. Now I like the intent of Magicka damage vs healing but stamina DPS can self heal too and thought very niche you have stamina healers. The changes will have to keep in mind stamina DPS Don't self heal better then we'll Magicka DPS and stamina healers suddenly don't underwhelm Magicka ones.

Also the cp system still looks like boring power progression.

idk

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food and 5 pc
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.
6. Ancient knowledge change.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

A very, very, small contributor if you set the stat point at Morrowind.

Your idea ignores the real issue and pretends CP is a big contributer. I suggest heading Codes words of wisdom. They seem to have a good grasp and understanding of the actual issue..

Small contributor? You know what's funny about codes words of wisdom and pretty much everyone who think that cp is fine and it's everything because of gear or whatever. It's that they ignore the fact that cp multiplies everything you do. Do you understand what that means? The better you do, the more power you get from cp. This is literally the definition of power creep. It gives an insane amount of power and power creep. You can literally stop gaining cp but cp won't stop giving u more power.

What is funny about your words of wisdom is you pretty much do not say anything to justify the little you suggest where Code does back up their words with actual actions Zos has made to add to our power.

For you to be correct it would mean there was extremely little power creep since Morrwind since the heavy diminishing returns on CP add up to very little, which is clearly not the case.

I think it is just easier for some to blame CP when they do not actually look at the big picture and understand what is going on. It is just an easy target since until now we gained 30 more ponts, but few actually look and see how little we really gain from that.

pieratsos

idk wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food and 5 pc
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.
6. Ancient knowledge change.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

A very, very, small contributor if you set the stat point at Morrowind.

Your idea ignores the real issue and pretends CP is a big contributer. I suggest heading Codes words of wisdom. They seem to have a good grasp and understanding of the actual issue..

Small contributor? You know what's funny about codes words of wisdom and pretty much everyone who think that cp is fine and it's everything because of gear or whatever. It's that they ignore the fact that cp multiplies everything you do. Do you understand what that means? The better you do, the more power you get from cp. This is literally the definition of power creep. It gives an insane amount of power and power creep. You can literally stop gaining cp but cp won't stop giving u more power.

What is funny about your words of wisdom is you pretty much do not say anything to justify the little you suggest where Code does back up their words with actual actions Zos has made to add to our power.

For you to be correct it would mean there was extremely little power creep since Morrwind since the heavy diminishing returns on CP add up to very little, which is clearly not the case.

I think it is just easier for some to blame CP when they do not actually look at the big picture and understand what is going on. It is just an easy target since until now we gained 30 more ponts, but few actually look and see how little we really gain from that.

I did not say anything? Did you just deliberately ignored what i said or you simply didnt understand it? Cause its there you know. You can go back and read it again.

Code also blamed light attacks for power creep etc. Many people did. And i completely agree with it. They are an issue. But here is what you dont understand. A system that gives a % amplification to ur light attack dmg is going to naturally make ur problem even bigger. Its common sense. Its not even about the 30 points you will or wont get. The next time you get more power because of this set or that mechanic well guess what. CP is going to retroactively give you more power too. And you are telling me that im the one not looking at the bigger picture. No i actually do. You are the one who cant see the bigger picture. You have an entire system that literally buffs everything you do and instead of looking at that you are here talking about the 30 points you get every patch and how they affect you.

idk

Misread and wiling to admit it.

Arciris

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food and 5 pc
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.
6. Ancient knowledge change.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

A very, very, small contributor if you set the stat point at Morrowind.

Your idea ignores the real issue and pretends CP is a big contributer. I suggest heading Codes words of wisdom. They seem to have a good grasp and understanding of the actual issue..

Small contributor? You know what's funny about codes words of wisdom and pretty much everyone who think that cp is fine and it's everything because of gear or whatever. It's that they ignore the fact that cp multiplies everything you do. Do you understand what that means? The better you do, the more power you get from cp. This is literally the definition of power creep. It gives an insane amount of power and power creep. You can literally stop gaining cp but cp won't stop giving u more power.

Of course the Champion Point system amplifies any issue.
This is why it is easily pointed out as the culprit for power creep.
But it is not the Root Cause.,
And the Root Cause(s) need to be addressed first. Once the root is treated, you then proceed (after a few months to gather some data) on adjusting the amplifier.
Otherwise we will just be making the same mistakes made in Morrowind.

This is the concern of many people in this thread: how to identify issues and how to prioritize their resolution.

Personally, I agree with Code that the main issue that needs to be looked at is not Power Creep but Power Gap.
Close the Power Gap first (which by itself should take care of some of the power creep), then look at the power creep and the CP system.
And certainly don't do both at the same time, or it's like apocalyptic level of nerfs coming down.
One thing at the time. We'll get there.

pieratsos

Arciris wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food and 5 pc
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.
6. Ancient knowledge change.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

A very, very, small contributor if you set the stat point at Morrowind.

Your idea ignores the real issue and pretends CP is a big contributer. I suggest heading Codes words of wisdom. They seem to have a good grasp and understanding of the actual issue..

Small contributor? You know what's funny about codes words of wisdom and pretty much everyone who think that cp is fine and it's everything because of gear or whatever. It's that they ignore the fact that cp multiplies everything you do. Do you understand what that means? The better you do, the more power you get from cp. This is literally the definition of power creep. It gives an insane amount of power and power creep. You can literally stop gaining cp but cp won't stop giving u more power.

Of course the Champion Point system amplifies any issue.
This is why it is easily pointed out as the culprit for power creep.
But it is not the Root Cause.,
And the Root Cause(s) need to be addressed first. Once the root is treated, you then proceed (after a few months to gather some data) on adjusting the amplifier.
Otherwise we will just be making the same mistakes made in Morrowind.

This is the concern of many people in this thread: how to identify issues and how to prioritize their resolution.

Personally, I agree with Code that the main issue that needs to be looked at is not Power Creep but Power Gap.
Close the Power Gap first (which by itself should take care of some of the power creep), then look at the power creep and the CP system.
And certainly don't do both at the same time, or it's like apocalyptic level of nerfs coming down.
One thing at the time. We'll get there.

CP isnt part of the root cause? You are right. CP isnt just part of the root cause of power creep, power gap or whatever. Its literally part of the root cause of prety much everything going wrong with the game. Balance, performance, diversity, fun you name it. CP is somehow involved in everything. If it doesnt warrant prioritisation over butchering just another mechanic to compensate then what it?

Arciris

pieratsos wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food and 5 pc
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.
6. Ancient knowledge change.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

A very, very, small contributor if you set the stat point at Morrowind.

Your idea ignores the real issue and pretends CP is a big contributer. I suggest heading Codes words of wisdom. They seem to have a good grasp and understanding of the actual issue..

Small contributor? You know what's funny about codes words of wisdom and pretty much everyone who think that cp is fine and it's everything because of gear or whatever. It's that they ignore the fact that cp multiplies everything you do. Do you understand what that means? The better you do, the more power you get from cp. This is literally the definition of power creep. It gives an insane amount of power and power creep. You can literally stop gaining cp but cp won't stop giving u more power.

Of course the Champion Point system amplifies any issue.
This is why it is easily pointed out as the culprit for power creep.
But it is not the Root Cause.,
And the Root Cause(s) need to be addressed first. Once the root is treated, you then proceed (after a few months to gather some data) on adjusting the amplifier.
Otherwise we will just be making the same mistakes made in Morrowind.

This is the concern of many people in this thread: how to identify issues and how to prioritize their resolution.

Personally, I agree with Code that the main issue that needs to be looked at is not Power Creep but Power Gap.
Close the Power Gap first (which by itself should take care of some of the power creep), then look at the power creep and the CP system.
And certainly don't do both at the same time, or it's like apocalyptic level of nerfs coming down.
One thing at the time. We'll get there.

CP isnt part of the root cause? You are right. CP isnt just part of the root cause of power creep, power gap or whatever. Its literally part of the root cause of prety much everything going wrong with the game. Balance, performance, diversity, fun you name it. CP is somehow involved in everything. If it doesnt warrant prioritisation over butchering just another mechanic to compensate then what it?

Yes of course CP is involved in everything. It is the progression system we have.
That is why it should be approached with a lot of caution, to no repeat the Morrowind Apocalypse (you were there, weren't you?)
But now you're agenda is revealed.
You know perfectly what is the cause of the unfair and insane Power Gap we have in the game, but you don't want it to be worked on to not loose any advantage it is giving you. That is selfish and when egoism is involved, there's no reasoning possible.
But just a hint: if somethings are not worked on soon enough, you might end up not having a game giving you that advantage to begin with.

pieratsos

Arciris wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food and 5 pc
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.
6. Ancient knowledge change.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

A very, very, small contributor if you set the stat point at Morrowind.

Your idea ignores the real issue and pretends CP is a big contributer. I suggest heading Codes words of wisdom. They seem to have a good grasp and understanding of the actual issue..

Small contributor? You know what's funny about codes words of wisdom and pretty much everyone who think that cp is fine and it's everything because of gear or whatever. It's that they ignore the fact that cp multiplies everything you do. Do you understand what that means? The better you do, the more power you get from cp. This is literally the definition of power creep. It gives an insane amount of power and power creep. You can literally stop gaining cp but cp won't stop giving u more power.

Of course the Champion Point system amplifies any issue.
This is why it is easily pointed out as the culprit for power creep.
But it is not the Root Cause.,
And the Root Cause(s) need to be addressed first. Once the root is treated, you then proceed (after a few months to gather some data) on adjusting the amplifier.
Otherwise we will just be making the same mistakes made in Morrowind.

This is the concern of many people in this thread: how to identify issues and how to prioritize their resolution.

Personally, I agree with Code that the main issue that needs to be looked at is not Power Creep but Power Gap.
Close the Power Gap first (which by itself should take care of some of the power creep), then look at the power creep and the CP system.
And certainly don't do both at the same time, or it's like apocalyptic level of nerfs coming down.
One thing at the time. We'll get there.

CP isnt part of the root cause? You are right. CP isnt just part of the root cause of power creep, power gap or whatever. Its literally part of the root cause of prety much everything going wrong with the game. Balance, performance, diversity, fun you name it. CP is somehow involved in everything. If it doesnt warrant prioritisation over butchering just another mechanic to compensate then what it?

Yes of course CP is involved in everything. It is the progression system we have.
That is why it should be approached with a lot of caution, to no repeat the Morrowind Apocalypse (you were there, weren't you?)
But now you're agenda is revealed.
You know perfectly what is the cause of the unfair and insane Power Gap we have in the game, but you don't want it to be worked on to not loose any advantage it is giving you. That is selfish and when egoism is involved, there's no reasoning possible.
But just a hint: if somethings are not worked on soon enough, you might end up not having a game giving you that advantage to begin with.

Yes i was there at Morrowind. And every other update that butchered everything just to compensate for CP. Thats the thing im trying to avoid but you seem to like it.

Oh and btw. If not liking nerfs that butcher everything and suck the fun out of the game makes me selfish, egotistical with an agenda then let me save you the trouble of calling me all those things. I volunteer and gladly accept all those characterisations.

pelle412

code65536 wrote: »

Sure, I can come up with one very easy solution right now to nerf power in a way that hits the top more than the mainstream or the floor: Any light/heavy attacks that land within 2s of a direct damage ability will do only half damage.

This is a very good suggestion, except I'd not include heavy attacks in it.

RaptorRodeoGod

When I came to this thread I expected to agree with @Masel and I did at first. Initially, I liked the idea of having meaningful tradeoffs rather than just having everything.

Then, I continued and read the comments, and I found what @code65536 was talking about really resonated with me.

I would consider myself to be a mid tier DPS role. I generally can hit around 30k DPS, give or take depending on which character/build I use. Now that's nice and dandy and all, but I've been stuck in this spot since before sharpened was nerfed. Any "power increase" that's been added to the game since then I haven't really seen, because I'm just not good enough to reap the benefits.

In fact, I dont think many of the more recent dlc's that have been at the right power level for me. Overland and normal dungeons/trials dont seem to be that difficult for me. On the other hand, I have not been able to beat any vet content since Morrowind came out. I dont have the time to be in a dedicated progression group, and having to PUG any vet content that I want to play does not go well.

In that respect, Code makes good points. Lowering the DPS gap, in my mind, would allow me access to more of the vet content that I want to play, because it could potentially bring me, and other PUGs, closer in line to the "good DPS" that is required for vet DLC content.

I agree that the power gap needs to be reduced. Why should someone with the same level, gear, CP distribution, and ideal rotation as me deal nearly twice as much damage or more because I can't play the game as good as they can?

Splattercat_83

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

I agree that the power gap needs to be reduced. Why should someone with the same level, gear, CP distribution, and ideal rotation as me deal nearly twice as much damage or more because I can't play the game as good as they can?

Did you really just say that?! LMAO You just asked for a nerf to people that hit high numbers, because they are good? Do you realize you just basically said you want to reduce the damage out put of players that have spent hours, if not months or years of work into their class and character just because you won't. Lets do this, how about people learn how to play? I know I know that might cause people to have to do this thing called "practice"? I mean seriously, you don't learn to play guitar overnight, you practice, you don't become a navy seal over night, you go through training, years worth, you don't get good at your job on the first day, you train and get experience. I know it might be old fashioned and unheard of in this day and age to actually have to say this but how about you work for what you get? Yes, it might take a while, I mean Im not just saying this, Im new on PC, Ive played since day one launch on xb1, and you know what? I haven't completed Vhof yet.I just completed VMoL back in the summer as well. You wanna know why? I didn't have the skill for it, but by god Ive worked on it and not come to the forums and asked for nerfs for the people that have done the same before me just because I cant!

BNOC

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

When I came to this thread I expected to agree with @Masel and I did at first. Initially, I liked the idea of having meaningful tradeoffs rather than just having everything.

Then, I continued and read the comments, and I found what @code65536 was talking about really resonated with me.

I would consider myself to be a mid tier DPS role. I generally can hit around 30k DPS, give or take depending on which character/build I use. Now that's nice and dandy and all, but I've been stuck in this spot since before sharpened was nerfed. Any "power increase" that's been added to the game since then I haven't really seen, because I'm just not good enough to reap the benefits.

In fact, I dont think many of the more recent dlc's that have been at the right power level for me. Overland and normal dungeons/trials dont seem to be that difficult for me. On the other hand, I have not been able to beat any vet content since Morrowind came out. I dont have the time to be in a dedicated progression group, and having to PUG any vet content that I want to play does not go well.

In that respect, Code makes good points. Lowering the DPS gap, in my mind, would allow me access to more of the vet content that I want to play, because it could potentially bring me, and other PUGs, closer in line to the "good DPS" that is required for vet DLC content.

I agree that the power gap needs to be reduced. Why should someone with the same level, gear, CP distribution, and ideal rotation as me deal nearly twice as much damage or more because I can't play the game as good as they can?

I hate to use you as an example and I don't mean anything personal by it but:

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Any "power increase" that's been added to the game since then I haven't really seen, because I'm just not good enough to reap the benefits.

"because I'm just not good enough"

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

I dont have the time to be in a dedicated progression group, and having to PUG any vet content that I want to play does not go well.

"I dont have the time"

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

I agree that the power gap needs to be reduced. Why should someone with the same level, gear, CP distribution, and ideal rotation as me deal nearly twice as much damage or more because I can't play the game as good as they can.

"because I can't play the game as good as they can."


These are all commonly said by average player which is fine. What's not fine about it is that the underlying context is simply a sense of entitlement.

It's essentially a "Because content X exists and player Y can do it, I should be able to do it too." - That is one of the worst mantras we have in this community.

I've said it a million times and I will a million more - You do not need to be able to complete and or compete in an MMO, you're allowed to not be good at specific things - Particularly endgame content.

Off the dome I can only suggest:

1. Add another difficulty above Veteran and reduce the difficulty of veteran slightly.
2. Add a station in to the starting area of each content which offers increased damage and or healing done in that run by X (15% for example) but make it known that these runs are excluded from the leaderboards and title / skins will not be obtained - Have PUG groups done via AF default to 25% and follow the same pattern of exclusion.

Looking at both, the sense of entitlement will definitely take over in both cases and we'll be back to square one.

We need to rework entitlement in this game, not power creep brought on by desire to learn or skill.

BuddyAces

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food and 5 pc
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.
6. Ancient knowledge change.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

A very, very, small contributor if you set the stat point at Morrowind.

Your idea ignores the real issue and pretends CP is a big contributer. I suggest heading Codes words of wisdom. They seem to have a good grasp and understanding of the actual issue..

Small contributor? You know what's funny about codes words of wisdom and pretty much everyone who think that cp is fine and it's everything because of gear or whatever. It's that they ignore the fact that cp multiplies everything you do. Do you understand what that means? The better you do, the more power you get from cp. This is literally the definition of power creep. It gives an insane amount of power and power creep. You can literally stop gaining cp but cp won't stop giving u more power.

What is funny about your words of wisdom is you pretty much do not say anything to justify the little you suggest where Code does back up their words with actual actions Zos has made to add to our power.

For you to be correct it would mean there was extremely little power creep since Morrwind since the heavy diminishing returns on CP add up to very little, which is clearly not the case.

I think it is just easier for some to blame CP when they do not actually look at the big picture and understand what is going on. It is just an easy target since until now we gained 30 more ponts, but few actually look and see how little we really gain from that.

I did not say anything? Did you just deliberately ignored what i said or you simply didnt understand it? Cause its there you know. You can go back and read it again.

Code also blamed light attacks for power creep etc. Many people did. And i completely agree with it. They are an issue. But here is what you dont understand. A system that gives a % amplification to ur light attack dmg is going to naturally make ur problem even bigger. Its common sense. Its not even about the 30 points you will or wont get. The next time you get more power because of this set or that mechanic well guess what. CP is going to retroactively give you more power too. And you are telling me that im the one not looking at the bigger picture. No i actually do. You are the one who cant see the bigger picture. You have an entire system that literally buffs everything you do and instead of looking at that you are here talking about the 30 points you get every patch and how they affect you.

Compounded by the fact that they buffed light attacks in that one patch. I don't remember which one it was off hand but it was the same one where they in turn nerfed heavy attacks cuz........light attacks hit harder???? Then they add the most ridiculous thing this game has ever seen from what can only be described as a troll move: a skill to buff light attacks even further.

LiquidPony

BuddyAces wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food and 5 pc
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.
6. Ancient knowledge change.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

A very, very, small contributor if you set the stat point at Morrowind.

Your idea ignores the real issue and pretends CP is a big contributer. I suggest heading Codes words of wisdom. They seem to have a good grasp and understanding of the actual issue..

Small contributor? You know what's funny about codes words of wisdom and pretty much everyone who think that cp is fine and it's everything because of gear or whatever. It's that they ignore the fact that cp multiplies everything you do. Do you understand what that means? The better you do, the more power you get from cp. This is literally the definition of power creep. It gives an insane amount of power and power creep. You can literally stop gaining cp but cp won't stop giving u more power.

What is funny about your words of wisdom is you pretty much do not say anything to justify the little you suggest where Code does back up their words with actual actions Zos has made to add to our power.

For you to be correct it would mean there was extremely little power creep since Morrwind since the heavy diminishing returns on CP add up to very little, which is clearly not the case.

I think it is just easier for some to blame CP when they do not actually look at the big picture and understand what is going on. It is just an easy target since until now we gained 30 more ponts, but few actually look and see how little we really gain from that.

I did not say anything? Did you just deliberately ignored what i said or you simply didnt understand it? Cause its there you know. You can go back and read it again.

Code also blamed light attacks for power creep etc. Many people did. And i completely agree with it. They are an issue. But here is what you dont understand. A system that gives a % amplification to ur light attack dmg is going to naturally make ur problem even bigger. Its common sense. Its not even about the 30 points you will or wont get. The next time you get more power because of this set or that mechanic well guess what. CP is going to retroactively give you more power too. And you are telling me that im the one not looking at the bigger picture. No i actually do. You are the one who cant see the bigger picture. You have an entire system that literally buffs everything you do and instead of looking at that you are here talking about the 30 points you get every patch and how they affect you.

Compounded by the fact that they buffed light attacks in that one patch. I don't remember which one it was off hand but it was the same one where they in turn nerfed heavy attacks cuz........light attacks hit harder???? Then they add the most ridiculous thing this game has ever seen from what can only be described as a troll move: a skill to buff light attacks even further.

Light Attack buffs may have impacted power creep but the buffs were intended to address the power gap.

You can literally put on some Relequen and do nothing but put one DoT down and then spam light attacks and do 35k DPS in a dungeon.

On a nightblade, you can do 40k+ DPS solo on either stam or magicka if you have decent gear doing almost nothing but light attacks and executing.

And you know what? If their goal was to reduce the gap between the floor (or the middle-class) and the ceiling, I think they succeeded. In fact, I actually see a lot of people in various raid-oriented Discords complaining about it. A few years ago, if you had BiS gear and a sweaty rotation you might do 40k DPS in a solo parse. If you were on the low end of the power scale, you struggled to hit 10-15k. Today, as I said previously, you can light attack your way to 20k DPS. Now throw in a basic understanding of weaving, a couple of buffs and a DoT or two, and you're well on your way to 40k DPS.

A perfect illustration: on a magblade solo parse I hit around 53k DPS or thereabouts most of the time. That's about 9,000 bar swaps, careful ulti timing, all of the bells and whistles.

I have literally tested the following:

1. Destro ulti
2. Blockade, swap
3. Light Attack x 5, Bow Proc, Light Attack x 5, Bow Proc, swap
4. Go to 2

In execute, spam Impale. Drop Destro ultis when they're up. I hit 43k with that setup. Sustain is infinite. Two years ago I'd have been lucky to hit 20k with that setup, but I would've been well over 40k with my "real" rotation. So to me, the power gap has been decreased substantially by: Light Attack buffs, Enchant buffs, gear, etc.

So all of the things that are getting blamed for causing power creep may in fact be the culprits, but they were implemented to reduce the power gap.

And to be honest, I don't really care about "power creep". I was watching Hodor's no-CP vMoL HM strugglebus yesterday, as I'm sure many of you were as well, and at the end of the stream Alcast was saying that right now the game "f*cking sucks for groups like ours because it's too easy". And you know what? I don't care. Not one bit. I've finally completed every bit of HM content in the game and it's never been easy. It took years of hard work to get here, from the solo work of practicing rotations and grinding up characters and gear, to the much harder work of building and maintaining a viable group to run the content. And I don't want to go backwards again like we did in Morrowind.

I am just extremely hesitant to even talk about "power creep" when the conversation is largely driven by the accomplishments of a small group of people who in no way represent the majority of the community. I wonder what percentage of "active" players (say, people with 500+ CP) have actually completed vCR+0 let alone vCR+3. Even vMoL HM. Hell, even just plain old vMoL.

My fear is that if we start making substantial changes to address "power creep", we just kill people who are progressing their way up into harder content.

With yesterday's Dungeon nerfs, and Hodor's no-CP run, and the looming "changes to CP coming", I'm already seeing rumblings in various Discords that I'm in with a common theme: if we get nerfed again, if we're going to struggle to beat old content we're already clearing and get set back in current content progression, we're out. Done. On to a new game.. That scares me.

RaptorRodeoGod

@BNOC @Splattercat_83

I apologize for not being clear as I should have been. It's not that I haven't put time in to practice rotations, because I have. I've been practicing on and off for more than 2 years. I have poured hundreds of hours into practicing rotations, getting and testing sets, and research on how to get better. I just haven't had as much time to do it recently, hence the "I don't have time" comment.

That being said, I feel as though there are many people who put in the same time and amount of effort, and just get more out of it. Which is ok I guess, but it's disappointing not being able to do the content and get the gear I want.

I am not somebody that wants to skate by with no practice and knowledge of rotations or sets, because I agree that wouldn't be fair. I know what I have to do, but my fingers don't translate it as well as it does for others that have put in a similar amount of commitment. I want to get there, I just haven't been able to.

I don't think end game players need to be nerfed at all, because I can see how that would suck for a lot of people. But it would be nice to feel rewarded after the amount of commitment I feel that I have put into my character. Instead, the best DPS goes up every patch, and I have practically stagnated.

I didn't mean to sound entitled, I just wanted to provide insight of people like me. People that have put the time and effort in, and just don't get their DPS high enough to do much of the newer content.

code65536

LiquidPony wrote: »

Hodor's no-CP run

I never understood the point of zero CP. Someone who hits level 50 for the first time start out at 10 CP, not zero. And with the initial enlightenment and the absurdly low cost of the early points, they'll be at 160 CP within a week or two. But I guess zero is a catchier headline.

Eventually, they tried it with 300 CP, and you can see the group DPS increase from 260K to 400K--as expected, as those early CPs are very powerful--by design. Unfortunately they didn't try the original CP cap of 501. I have a sneaking suspicion that at 501 CP, they probably wouldn't have noticed that much of a difference. But I suppose that wouldn't have been as entertaining to watch.

Well, here are some points to consider:

• When Hodor got the world's first vMoL speed run in 2016, they had 501 CP. And from the screenshots and videos of that clear, you can see that DPS was roughly around 30K per player on Rakkhat. Yesterday's no-CP Rakkhat pulls had DPS levels that were similar. So 501 CP in 2016 was doing around the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019. Obviously, there's been a lot of power added, and it's obviously not from CP.
• Despite limiting themselves to 300 CP, they still cleared HM. On pad 5. The world-first clear of HM wasn't pad 5. It wasn't pad 7. It went through Lunar. That was during the Shadows of the Hist patch, when the CP cap was 531. If CP is so overpowered, and people back then had 231 more CP than the run yesterday, why did people back then not do pad 5 burns? Not even pad 7 lunar skips?

The correct takeaway from that little demonstration yesterday is that

1. The early CPs--the ones that are very easily accessible to players--are pretty powerful. As intended and as expected.
2. There's been a lot of power that's been added since 2016. And it's not from CP.

So, again, why do topics about CP power creep even exist? I will reiterate that CP is not perfect, and that there are things with CP that need to be addressed, like how CP restricts combat (e.g., remember the days when stam DKs did fire damage and that wasn't a problem?). But CP as the source of power creep? If someone believes that, then boy have I got a bridge to sell to them.

BNOC

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

@BNOC @Splattercat_83

I apologize for not being clear as I should have been. It's not that I haven't put time in to practice rotations, because I have. I've been practicing on and off for more than 2 years. I have poured hundreds of hours into practicing rotations, getting and testing sets, and research on how to get better. I just haven't had as much time to do it recently, hence the "I don't have time" comment.

That being said, I feel as though there are many people who put in the same time and amount of effort, and just get more out of it. Which is ok I guess, but it's disappointing not being able to do the content and get the gear I want.

I am not somebody that wants to skate by with no practice and knowledge of rotations or sets, because I agree that wouldn't be fair. I know what I have to do, but my fingers don't translate it as well as it does for others that have put in a similar amount of commitment. I want to get there, I just haven't been able to.

I don't think end game players need to be nerfed at all, because I can see how that would suck for a lot of people. But it would be nice to feel rewarded after the amount of commitment I feel that I have put into my character. Instead, the best DPS goes up every patch, and I have practically stagnated.

I didn't mean to sound entitled, I just wanted to provide insight of people like me. People that have put the time and effort in, and just don't get their DPS high enough to do much of the newer content.

I'm in a similar position myself with time, for me it just comes down to acceptance.

I used to have the time to farm the right gear to achieve top scores in MSA, DSA and whatever trials - I don't have that time anymore so can only be happy to concede that I won't be completing new content.

I stand by an alternative difficulty that caters to players like us, players who take time away from the game and don't have what it takes to compete with the best of the best, be that time, skill or something else. A difficulty that doesn't punish every mistake with a group wipe but still provides a challenge; One that doesn't make content a breeze for top tier players - Maybe with slightly reduced drop rates on gear and a separate title (or no title) as it's only downside - If it's put in between Normal and Vet ofc.

My opinion is that any changes to balance, be that abilities, rotation structure and or classes will be tested in depth as always and someone will simply work out what is optimal. Then the gap will appear again because no matter how hard most people try (myself included), someone will always be better at pulling it off.

LiquidPony

code65536 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Hodor's no-CP run

I never understood the point of zero CP. Someone who hits level 50 for the first time start out at 10 CP, not zero. And with the initial enlightenment and the absurdly low cost of the early points, they'll be at 160 CP within a week or two. But I guess zero is a catchier headline.

Eventually, they tried it with 300 CP, and you can see the group DPS increase from 260K to 400K--as expected, as those early CPs are very powerful--by design. Unfortunately they didn't try the original CP cap of 501. I have a sneaking suspicion that at 501 CP, they probably wouldn't have noticed that much of a difference. But I suppose that wouldn't have been as entertaining to watch.

Well, here are some points to consider:

• When Hodor got the world's first vMoL speed run in 2016, they had 501 CP. And from the screenshots and videos of that clear, you can see that DPS was roughly around 30K per player on Rakkhat. Yesterday's no-CP Rakkhat pulls had DPS levels that were similar. So 501 CP in 2016 was doing around the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019. Obviously, there's been a lot of power added, and it's obviously not from CP.
• Despite limiting themselves to 300 CP, they still cleared HM. On pad 5. The world-first clear of HM wasn't pad 5. It wasn't pad 7. It went through Lunar. That was during the Shadows of the Hist patch, when the CP cap was 531. If CP is so overpowered, and people back then had 231 more CP than the run yesterday, why did people back then not do pad 5 burns? Not even pad 7 lunar skips?

The correct takeaway from that little demonstration yesterday is that

1. The early CPs--the ones that are very easily accessible to players--are pretty powerful. As intended and as expected.
2. There's been a lot of power that's been added since 2016. And it's not from CP.

So, again, why do topics about CP power creep even exist? I will reiterate that CP is not perfect, and that there are things with CP that need to be addressed, like how CP restricts combat (e.g., remember the days when stam DKs did fire damage and that wasn't a problem?). But CP as the source of power creep? If someone believes that, then boy have I got a bridge to sell to them.

I completely agree. Alcast even demonstrated it pretty succinctly yesterday: no CP = probably full Lunar Phase, 300 CP = Pad 5 burn, 810 CP = Pad 3 burn.

Obviously that first 300 CP is worth *far more* than the next 510 (but it is worth noting that a significant chunk of it comes from the huge resource pool gain in the first 300 CP).

I don't think CP is the bogeyman, at least not in PvE. In PvP perhaps I can understand an argument about the power of CP, especially red CP, when it comes to a max-CP player versus a mid-CP player (or even two max-CP players, one with heavily optimized CP and the other with just kind of random CP allocation).

But then again, I don't think there is a bogeyman. I'm OK with "power creep". I want to get more powerful over time. If ZOS isn't happy with groups clearing vAS in under 5 minutes, then maybe they should've thought about that before they introduced lazy one-room mini-Trials into the game in the first place.

vAS+2 and vCR+3 and even vMoL HM and vHoF HM are plenty difficult as they are, with player power where it is, even for very good groups. Maybe not for the very top groups, but I wager there are a lot of people who have been working on progression in hard content who don't agree with the notion that any of this is "too easy".

IMO continually going after player power is bass-ackwards. Adjust the content. Make better content, with more intricate mechanics and less pure DPS races. If it's too easy for Hodor, then introduce new modes with new rewards. Give us an "Ironman"-type mode where we can run content with CP disabled and get special titles or skins or whatever. Just don't nerf us into the ground please.

Dracan_Fontom

This is less of a rework and more of reorganizing which helps power creep how?

BuddyAces

After reading this again I come back to whole thing of: who cares? I'm sorry but I like to get stronger. New stuff can be attuned to accomadate player power. Getting stronger is fun fun fun.

To balance anything on what Hodor can accomplish is just asinine. How many groups can do what they do? Anyone? Seriously, anyone have an answer to that? How big is the gap between Hodor and the next guild? Let's say there's 10 guilds (random number that popped into my head for argument) that can clear vAS in under under 5 mins. 12 times 10 is 120 people (randomly that none of them are cross guildies with each other) that can do that. We're going to address power creep because 120 people can do what everyone else can not?

Power creep isn't an issue. Skill gap is. Without dumbing down the game, I can't think of a fix.

leeux

Sorry to chime in in this enlightening conversation, but I'm worried about some things I've seen in some streams lately, and I fear that some changes might be in the work atm in secret that could potentially lead to another Morrowind catastrophe again... so I have to share my experience.

Back in the previous months before Morrowind, I was in a guild that was doing progressions for vMOL... I was doing good, and most of the people in the group were trying their best to learn the mechanics and get past that trial... we had an awesome leader than knew the trial and several people in the group that already had the trial completed, but to the more newbies of us, it was the first chance to get that done. We got to get past the twins after 3/4 weeks of progression, of about ~2 or 3hs per week, IIRC.

Then Morrowind happened... out of ~14 to ~16 people that participated weekly in that group, ~7 stopped playing in the next month... the rest of the group, disbanded and the guild died. I stopped playing the game completely for 5 months... because there was no activity in any of my guilds at that time... and only started to try to really come back to the game and play it seriously about 3 months ago.

It is already discouraging that we have to reevaluate or gear and "upgrade" it every 3 months, even if it's understandable that we have to do so due to "financial" reasons (need to sell DLCs and force people to buy them) it's already an extra annoyance that common/casual players have to endure to be able to keep up and try to reach the floor needed to be able to complete the content at the end game.

If the change you propose gets introduced (or other more forceful changes that I've seen proposed on some streams) what will happen is that the ceiling will raise again, getting even more out of reach for the common of us and many people will drop again from the game.

The real point is, yeah, people stops playing all the time... but each time something like that happens, the people you lose due to it is harder and harder to replace... you lose guild masters and community organizers, you lose people that knows the game and can explain it to newer people, etc.

The new people that might come in, even if greater in number than the one that left, doesn't really compensate for the fact that the aggregate knowledge and community quality decreases each time you do something like what happened in Morrowind.

This is all anecdotal ofc (it's just my personal experience, I can't back it up with "data") but it needs to be considered and kept in mind, IMHO.

Splattercat_83

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

@BNOC @Splattercat_83

I apologize for not being clear as I should have been. It's not that I haven't put time in to practice rotations, because I have. I've been practicing on and off for more than 2 years. I have poured hundreds of hours into practicing rotations, getting and testing sets, and research on how to get better. I just haven't had as much time to do it recently, hence the "I don't have time" comment.

That being said, I feel as though there are many people who put in the same time and amount of effort, and just get more out of it. Which is ok I guess, but it's disappointing not being able to do the content and get the gear I want.

I am not somebody that wants to skate by with no practice and knowledge of rotations or sets, because I agree that wouldn't be fair. I know what I have to do, but my fingers don't translate it as well as it does for others that have put in a similar amount of commitment. I want to get there, I just haven't been able to.

I don't think end game players need to be nerfed at all, because I can see how that would suck for a lot of people. But it would be nice to feel rewarded after the amount of commitment I feel that I have put into my character. Instead, the best DPS goes up every patch, and I have practically stagnated.

I didn't mean to sound entitled, I just wanted to provide insight of people like me. People that have put the time and effort in, and just don't get their DPS high enough to do much of the newer content.

Sorry for jumping the gun after i misconstrued what you said. I know exactly what you mean about not having to time to get as good as others. I work a full time job, (I have spent the last 14 years of my life working either 12 hour shifts or 24 hour shifts in ems and law enforcement) I am married, and I have a beautiful 5 year old little girl. ESO is something I do after the family goes to bed.

The things I have done that have seemed to help me in keep a moderate level of skill is to research and read as much as I can here on the forums, redit, and on xbox there are a ton of band pages that you can reference for help. I put aside even if its 15 minutes everynight to pound on a dummy. I am glad my house dosen't have visitors because people would think im STUPID as i will do my roations but i constantly move around as to simulate having to kite bosses, aoes, attacks etc in a real fight. I also stand still just to get the basic rotation down as well.

Focus on the basics if you are missing light attack weaves, slow down and just make sure you get your light attack off, and then the skill. gradually speed it up until you start missing your light attacks again, then reel it back in and slow down a tad and you will eventually find your rythem. If you are having issues with certain parts of your rotation, do that part slowly, keep repeating it over and over.

as far as getting reps in actual trials, do normals man, other that AS and CR, all trials drop the same gear, you will get your Master Architect, War Machine, Infal Ather, VO, AY etc..... the mechanics are simular enough to where you shouldn't wipe when you go into vet, but still research the subtle differences so you will know what else to look out for when you go into vet. Thats what I did in VMAW, I ran normal almost everyday for two years. Finally got into a group that let me go with them into vet. 1 banged the first boss, didn't blow anyone up on conversions on the twins, and I actually ran backyard some on rakkhat.

the first time i got pulled into VMOL the group wasn't able to beat Rakkhat, the 2nd time I went in we plowed him over. The short of it is Id rather go in 80 % prepared than 0%.

Find people in simular situations as you to play with. There are plenty of magblades hitting 50 some odd k dps with BSW and MA, on pts ive hit 52, on live on pc im 180 cp, but ive got 1030 + CP on xbox1 and as the current live on xb1 i only hit 45-49k in MA and BSW. There are groups posting for magblades 55k+ but i know better than to try with those groups, im not at that level and thats ok. I am happy with where I am at. Im running with a great group of guys, and we are progressing VHOF, I only get to raid on wensdays, and so far the wensday team we have only got to triplets, and had them down to like 12% but out friday and saturday group cleared vhof this past weekend. Work at it man and dont let it get to you. You don't have to be on the leader boards to have fun