Reworking the Champion Point System to reduce Power Creep

Masel

Hello fellow ESO'ers!

I've been wanting to showcase a CP system rework for a while, and now i have the time for it. The goal is to create a system that has clear tradeoffs, as opposed to the current system where the tradeoff is only between specific types of utility/sustain, damage and defense. After the changes, the CP system rather focuses on alleviating weaknesses instead of boosting what builds are already good at. So magicka builds can invest more into their defense against physical damgeand improve stamina management, while stamina builds can boost their healing done/received and their effectiveness against casters.

This system does not fully alleviate the problem of an abundance of CP points. since we have so many points to invest by now, the tardeoffs stilla rent as clear as thy should be.

What do we have now?

Currently, we have a CP level of 810 Points. This allows us to distribute 270 Points into each of the three main CP Stars (Mage/Warrior/Serpent). These trees are overall clearly defined:

1. The Warrior is basically the defensive tree. Here you find all the different defensive options that you might need. Nte that this includes physical and magical resistances.
2. The Serpent is the sustain/utility tree. Here you find everything that will reduce cost of your actions and increase recovery.
3. The Mage is the Damage tree. Here we have all stars that directly boost damage of all types.

Within this distribution of the CP stars, the problem is pretty obvious: You can invest 270 points into Damage of your type, 270 Points into utility of your liking and 270 points into defense. This makes the System allow you to be very tanky while dealing a load of damage and sustain very well, which leads to significant power creep that steadily increased over the years.

How can we reduce power creep and improve the system?

Well, there are many approaches hat ahve been suggested, but I'll tkae one that is practical in a sense that it doesnt not require any additonal perks/trees/stars. It simply reorders them to obtain a higher level of tradeoff between damage, utility/sustain and defense of a specific type. So if you want high magic damage fro example, you will lose magic sustain and damage for it. Here's the full reorder:



Lets start with the Warrior. I designed this tree to be a "general" option. So here we have stars and perks that are not tied to magicka and stamina specifically, but grants defensive and offensive options instead:



As you can see, i basically reordered pretty much all the stars and perks here. Now, if i want to invest into CP stars that increase my damage done, i cannot invest as many into CP trees that reduce my damage taken. I also cannot invest as amny point sinto critical damage taken and health recovery if i want to improve the other options.

The Mage tree contains all stars and perks that are related to magicka and magic damage, utility/sustain and defense. So if i want more Magicka Recovery, i have to reduce the points i invest into the Stars that grant Magic Damage and Healing.




Since more abilities that heal scale with magicka, i also wanted to create a clear tradeoff between magic damage and healing. If you want to heal more effectively or receive more healing, it will reduce the damage you do with Magic Abilities and your magicka recovery. Same goes for Stars that interact with shields. Incuding elemental defender and light armor focus/spell shield here also creates a tradeoff between the damage trees and the respective defensive tree.

The Serpent follwos that paradigm:



So again, we have a clear tradeoff: if i put more points into hardy, i cannot invest as many into Precise Strikes and Mooncalf. Stamina Builds need to think about whether they want to be able to rolldodge more, sprint more, sustain better through recovery or deal more damage overall.

Now this system technically allows for a full glass cannon build and for higher damage than on live, but the tradeoff is clearly there. Builds that do that will not be able to invest into sustain and defense a lot, so they will basically fall very quickly. in PvE, this system can technically allow groups to go for more damage than we have now, but the loss of defensive cps will prevent that in any content that is challenging anyway. So on top of that Iwould like the number of CP points to be reduced significantly to 510. We simply have too many points to actually allow for tradeoffs, since we can invest a sizable amount into all stars anyway.

Keep in mind that the diminishing returns of each specific star and the scaling values will be retained.


Feedback is welcome!

Vildebill

I think this change sounds good in terms of balance, and it would probably decrease the power creep.

What I don't like is that it's a plain nerf to what we have now. I don't like plain nerfs, people seldom do. The Morrowind sustain genocide is a good example of that.

code65536

At the risk of sounding pedantic, this will reduce Power, not Power Creep.

CP is not the source of Power Creep. Power creep is the increase in power over time, as more CP is added. The overhaul of CP during the Morrowind patch has been quite effective as stopping CP power creep. Power creep by and large come from things unrelated to CP. New gear sets, adjustments in abilities, changes in how various combat mechanics work, etc.

What you are suggesting is a strong nerf to the raw absolute power of CP. And doing so in a way that will benefit people who spend time optimizing their CP for what they're doing. Someone who takes a balance between offense and defense because they can't be bothered to respec every time they do something different is going to be at a disadvantage compared to someone to tryhards and changes their CP for everything they do. Sure, there are people who already do that, but the benefit of doing that right now is not very significant under the current CP system and will be more significant under what you propose.

Why do I bring this up? Because I feel like too many people fail to recognize the real problems in this game. Power creep is not the biggest problem in this game. Absolute power is not the biggest problem in this game. CP is not the biggest problem.

The biggest problem is the power gap.

The gap between the floor and ceiling in this game is exceedingly high and grows every patch. Even more concerning is the gap between the mainstream and the ceiling. This is where all of the game's balancing problems come from. Designing content to challenge the ceiling results in content that is wildly inaccessible to everyone else. And designing content that is accessible to more people means that content is boring for the ceiling.

Instead of trying to solve the "problem" of power creep, the real question is, "How do we close the gap between the floor and ceiling and the gap between the mainstream and ceiling?"

And in that light, I would consider your proposal to be harmful. Because it means that those who spend time optimizing CP for the content instead of using a general-purpose CP will have a greater advantage than people who do the same today. I.e., it is going to increase the gap.

idk

If you are looking to help Zos manage power creep CP is clearly the wrong place to look. It is hardly a significant source of power creep. Zos devs are the source.

One great example that Zos devs are directly responsible for the power creep, outside of CP, is one that Code posted a few weeks ago. I provided the link below

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457290/the-real-source-of-power-creep#latest

It is pretty easy to see real examples in the game over time that are much more significant that CP With the heavy diminishing returns in CP that has added very little to the power creep over the past couple of years. Very little, plus much of it was nerfed a couple years ago with the diminishing returns increased further.

Edit: I am not suggesting OP has a bad idea (bad or good). I am suggesting some people look at the wrong place when the blame sits squarely with the lead developer's and Firror changes to skills, sets, buffs and more. They have to change how they manage the game if you want power creep controlled.

I do see Code provided a much better reply while I was typing this.

What Code spoke to about the gap is also true. During the time Zos has stated they have been lowering the ceiling and raiding the floor they have actually been driving a wedge between the two and separating them further.

Top that point Code brought up, I am cautiously optimistic the statement Zos has made that they are developing a "vision" for combat in this game will be a turning point in how they manage combat in this game over all, including the points Code has made.

frostz417

Nah

Bashev

code65536 wrote: »

At the risk of sounding pedantic, this will reduce Power, not Power Creep.

Exactly my thoughts. Make all CP perks not combat related.

Masel

code65536 wrote: »

At the risk of sounding pedantic, this will reduce Power, not Power Creep.

CP is not the source of Power Creep. Power creep is the increase in power over time, as more CP is added. The overhaul of CP during the Morrowind patch has been quite effective as stopping CP power creep. Power creep by and large come from things unrelated to CP. New gear sets, adjustments in abilities, changes in how various combat mechanics work, etc.

What you are suggesting is a strong nerf to the raw absolute power of CP. And doing so in a way that will benefit people who spend time optimizing their CP for what they're doing. Someone who takes a balance between offense and defense because they can't be bothered to respec every time they do something different is going to be at a disadvantage compared to someone to tryhards and changes their CP for everything they do. Sure, there are people who already do that, but the benefit of doing that right now is not very significant under the current CP system and will be more significant under what you propose.

Why do I bring this up? Because I feel like too many people fail to recognize the real problems in this game. Power creep is not the biggest problem in this game. Absolute power is not the biggest problem in this game. CP is not the biggest problem.

The biggest problem is the power gap.

The gap between the floor and ceiling in this game is exceedingly high and grows every patch. Even more concerning is the gap between the mainstream and the ceiling. This is where all of the game's balancing problems come from. Designing content to challenge the ceiling results in content that is wildly inaccessible to everyone else. And designing content that is accessible to more people means that content is boring for the ceiling.

Instead of trying to solve the "problem" of power creep, the real question is, "How do we close the gap between the floor and ceiling and the gap between the mainstream and ceiling?"

And in that light, I would consider your proposal to be harmful. Because it means that those who spend time optimizing CP for the content instead of using a general-purpose CP will have a greater advantage than people who do the same today. I.e., it is going to increase the gap.

I get your point. Thing is, the difference between the ceiling and floor is so large because of how much more power CPs provide if executed right. Take away CP form someone who knows what they're doing, and you'll reduce the ceiling by a large amount. Take them away from someone who isnt optimised and has no clue what to do in the game will not affect them as much anyway, because they do not have a lot to lose from the start.

The difference between the sailing and the floor is so large because the game does not explain how it functions at all. Yes, you have a few sections that explain basics, but in general most players have no real clue how the game works because it does not intuitively explain how it works in the first place.

If you want to reduce the gap, youd have to make the game simpler in the first place. You'd agree that having no cp at all will reduce the power gap too wouldn't it?

idk

In reading your reply to Code it really seems you are not interested in addressing power creep, but just interested in making a change, and that is dangerous as you do not make any comments to their points concerning the actual cause of power creep.

Further, the same issues with power creep also relate to the complexity of playing the game. This also began in earnest with Morrowind when Zos drove a wedge between top DPS and lower DPS, not related to CP.

Masel

idk wrote: »

In reading your reply to Code it really seems you are not interested in addressing power creep, but just interested in making a change, and that is dangerous as you do not make any comments to their points concerning the actual cause of power creep.

Further, the same issues with power creep also relate to the complexity of playing the game. This also began in earnest with Morrowind when Zos drove a wedge between top DPS and lower DPS, not related to CP.

Since I mentioned reducing cp to a previous more feasible level, wouldn't that address power creep already?

code65536

Masel wrote: »

I get your point. Thing is, the difference between the ceiling and floor is so large because of how much more power CPs provide if executed right. Take away CP form someone who knows what they're doing, and you'll reduce the ceiling by a large amount. Take them away from someone who isnt optimised and has no clue what to do in the game will not affect them as much anyway, because they do not have a lot to lose from the start.

Only if you are looking at the absolute floor. If you have someone who has just 10 CP, yes, the power gap between 10 and 810 is quite large. But so is the power gap between someone who is level 3 and someone who is level 50. The frontloading of CP and the ease with which early CPs are gained mean that when you look at the more meaningful comparison--i.e., between mainstream and ceiling--the gap from CP isn't that much. The gap between the original CP cap of 510 and the current cap of 810 really isn't that much, and I know this because my second EU account is somewhere in that ballpark.

The next case is in how the player spends their CP. Again, I agree that if you look at the absolute floor--i.e., someone who spends their CP in all the wrong stars--you will find a large gap. But what about the more mainstream case, of someone who just throws points in a somewhat balanced fashion into points that sound about right without using an addon that calculates the optimal CP allocation? The current CP system doesn't offer much tradeoff. It's damage A vs. damage B, and at the end of the day, 30 points in A and 50 points in B is really not much different than 50 points in A and 30 points in B.

But what happens when you start adding real, meaningful tradeoffs? If I'm in a group with a great support team, I can take points out of defensive stars and put them into offensive ones. If I'm in a group that's learning the content, where the tanks and healers will make mistakes, then I will likely need more points in defensive stars, thus sacrificing offensive power. This is exactly the kind of tradeoff that increases the gap.

If you want to reduce the gap, youd have to make the game simpler in the first place. You'd agree that having no cp at all will reduce the power gap too wouldn't it?

Yes, having absolutely no CP would reduce the power gap because it removes trade-off decision making in how CP is spent. But this isn't what your proposal does. Your proposal makes the trade-offs more significant than before. The current CP system's tradeoffs are really not that significant. If I shift 20 points from Master-At-Arms into Thaumaturge and Elfborn, the change in DPS will be virtually unnoticeable, because I'm shifting points from one type of damage to another. But if I shift 20 points from damage-dealing into damage-reduction because I'm running with experienced tanks and healers, I'm shifting points from damage to no damage, and that difference will be felt. And this is exactly why your proposal will be harmful for the power gap.

Drummerx04

Masel wrote: »

I get your point. Thing is, the difference between the ceiling and floor is so large because of how much more power CPs provide if executed right. Take away CP form someone who knows what they're doing, and you'll reduce the ceiling by a large amount. Take them away from someone who isnt optimised and has no clue what to do in the game will not affect them as much anyway, because they do not have a lot to lose from the start.

The difference between the sailing and the floor is so large because the game does not explain how it functions at all. Yes, you have a few sections that explain basics, but in general most players have no real clue how the game works because it does not intuitively explain how it works in the first place.

If you want to reduce the gap, youd have to make the game simpler in the first place. You'd agree that having no cp at all will reduce the power gap too wouldn't it?

Sure if you want to be really disingenuous, removing CP would lower the dps of people at the top more than the people at the bottom... but that doesn't stop the people at the bottom from being bad or inexperienced players. If you remove CP, maybe the new raid max is 40k and the new "elitist" numbers start at 20k. The bad players will still be unable to break 15k...

There is no way around this fact. Every game you have ever played has this "problem" where even in a perfectly balanced system, you will have people who come out on top.

Your position is like complaining that Chess Grand Masters are OP, so lets nerf pawns to lower the ceiling.

Bashev

Masel wrote: »

idk wrote: »

In reading your reply to Code it really seems you are not interested in addressing power creep, but just interested in making a change, and that is dangerous as you do not make any comments to their points concerning the actual cause of power creep.

Further, the same issues with power creep also relate to the complexity of playing the game. This also began in earnest with Morrowind when Zos drove a wedge between top DPS and lower DPS, not related to CP.

Since I mentioned reducing cp to a previous more feasible level, wouldn't that address power creep already?

Then ZoS should freeze the CP increase forever, otherwise we will be back in the same situation in 2 years. Other thing is that they can put CP labels on the trials and vet dungeons but I doubt that they want that. As far as I see ZoS wants all their content to be relevant to end game.

Masel

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food and 5 pc
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.
6. Ancient knowledge change.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

Masel

Bashev wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

idk wrote: »

In reading your reply to Code it really seems you are not interested in addressing power creep, but just interested in making a change, and that is dangerous as you do not make any comments to their points concerning the actual cause of power creep.

Further, the same issues with power creep also relate to the complexity of playing the game. This also began in earnest with Morrowind when Zos drove a wedge between top DPS and lower DPS, not related to CP.

Since I mentioned reducing cp to a previous more feasible level, wouldn't that address power creep already?

Then ZoS should freeze the CP increase forever, otherwise we will be back in the same situation in 2 years. Other thing is that they can put CP labels on the trials and vet dungeons but I doubt that they want that. As far as I see ZoS wants all their content to be relevant to end game.

Yes, and that is why we told them not to raise the cap anymore, which they did not with wrathstone.

Masel

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

I get your point. Thing is, the difference between the ceiling and floor is so large because of how much more power CPs provide if executed right. Take away CP form someone who knows what they're doing, and you'll reduce the ceiling by a large amount. Take them away from someone who isnt optimised and has no clue what to do in the game will not affect them as much anyway, because they do not have a lot to lose from the start.

The difference between the sailing and the floor is so large because the game does not explain how it functions at all. Yes, you have a few sections that explain basics, but in general most players have no real clue how the game works because it does not intuitively explain how it works in the first place.

If you want to reduce the gap, youd have to make the game simpler in the first place. You'd agree that having no cp at all will reduce the power gap too wouldn't it?

Sure if you want to be really disingenuous, removing CP would lower the dps of people at the top more than the people at the bottom... but that doesn't stop the people at the bottom from being bad or inexperienced players. If you remove CP, maybe the new raid max is 40k and the new "elitist" numbers start at 20k. The bad players will still be unable to break 15k...

There is no way around this fact. Every game you have ever played has this "problem" where even in a perfectly balanced system, you will have people who come out on top.

Your position is like complaining that Chess Grand Masters are OP, so lets nerf pawns to lower the ceiling.

Problem is that reverting/rebalancing all these additional combat changes that contributed to power creep is a much more extensive task.

All I wanted to do is to provide a system That reduces the power of optimised groups overall by introducing tradeoffs.

And I said, in order to improve the floor the game needs to explain itself better. New players have no idea how to build themselves because noone explains it to them from the very beginning. The tutorial isnt helpful in that either.

code65536

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

Why 300? 510 was the cap in late 2015 when CP was initially capped. All of those changes you mentioned happened long after the CP was capped at 510. Many of them within the past year.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are definitely balance problems in this game, but the the amount of scapegoating on CP is bewildering, particularly from class representatives (not just you).

Masel

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

Why 300? 510 was the cap in late 2015 when CP was initially capped. All of those changes you mentioned happened long after the CP was capped at 510. Many of them within the past year.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are definitely balance problems in this game, but the the amount of scapegoating on CP is bewildering, particularly from class representatives (not just you).

Well then tell me what we should do instead. What do you suggest to do to stop the power gap AND power creep? I've been advocating nerfs instead of buffs to many things across the board to prevent exactly that, and I've never claimed anywhere that cp is the only factor here. Dont assume things about me that you cannot know about.

code65536

Masel wrote: »

All I wanted to do is to provide a system That reduces the power of optimised groups overall by introducing tradeoffs.

Then you have not learned the lessons from the Morrowind sustain changes. ZOS's lofty goal at the time was to reduce the gap between the ceiling and floor. And they identified sustain as a key problem: top groups were spec'ed purely for damage and there was no need to consider sustain.

So their goal was to bring down the ceiling by forcing top players to make a trade-off between damage and sustain. And they succeeded--damage at the top was brought down.

But what they also succeeded in doing was cratering the mainstream and increasing the power gap--the exact opposite of what they intended to do.

Why did the sustain changes increase the power gap? Because it favors groups who have the best damage-done-per-resource-spent ratio. If you weave perfectly, you will get more damage from the resources that you spent, because light attacks do resource-free damage. If you use a difficult dynamic rotation that lets you time your DoTs perfectly to minimize early and late recastings, you are getting more damage per resource spent. If your tanks position things well and you place your ground AoEs well, you get more damage per casted ability. If your support have great uptimes, you get better sustain directly (e.g., better Ele uptime) and indirectly (more debuffs on the boss means more damage done per casted ability and thus more damage done per resource spent). If you have great awareness and can avoid damage deftly, that's fewer resources that need to be spent casting a shield.

I can go on forever.

The point is, whatever nerf sustain was for the top, it was a much greater nerf for everyone else. Morrowind's sustan changes served to substantially widen the power gap.

And this is exactly what your suggestion will do. Add trade-offs between damage and defense? Sure, that's a nerf to the top. And an even bigger nerf to everyone else. Explain to me how this will address the power gap problem?

John_Falstaff

I think I more or less understand and relate with the point @code65536 is trying to get across. The newly proposed CP system is indeed meaningful, and there lies a caveat: a meaningful CP system that introduces real, tangible tradeoffs, will make the game more complex - instead of narrowing the range between casuals and seasoned players, it will widen it, by stressing significance of careful CP allocation (which casuals weren't doing before and were getting away with it because lazy allocation didn't penalize them much).

code65536

Masel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

Why 300? 510 was the cap in late 2015 when CP was initially capped. All of those changes you mentioned happened long after the CP was capped at 510. Many of them within the past year.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are definitely balance problems in this game, but the the amount of scapegoating on CP is bewildering, particularly from class representatives (not just you).

Well then tell me what we should do instead. What do you suggest to do to stop the power gap AND power creep?

Sure, I can come up with one very easy solution right now to nerf power in a way that hits the top more than the mainstream or the floor: Any light/heavy attacks that land within 2s of a direct damage ability will do only half damage.

leandro.800ub17_ESO

The only thing to do is remove any power diference in PVP.
Concept of rpg level gains Vs Balance PVP is not compatible with CP system that apllies on both sides.
Or just create distint campaigns with diferent CP amounts and let players use the full amount

Masel

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

Why 300? 510 was the cap in late 2015 when CP was initially capped. All of those changes you mentioned happened long after the CP was capped at 510. Many of them within the past year.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are definitely balance problems in this game, but the the amount of scapegoating on CP is bewildering, particularly from class representatives (not just you).

Well then tell me what we should do instead. What do you suggest to do to stop the power gap AND power creep? I've been advocating nerfs instead of buffs to many things across the board to prevent exactly that, and I've never claimed anywhere that cp is the only factor here. Dont assume things about me that you cannot know about.

Sure, I can come up with one very easy solution right now to nerf power in a way that hits the top more than the mainstream or the floor: Any light attacks that land within 2s of a direct damage ability will do only half damage.

While i unterstand the point again, consider how that change would be received by the endgame community.

They'll rage because they wont be rewarded for a more complex, harder to execute playstyle. Light attacks wont be worth it anymore. Halving their damage (which is what this would achieve) will make heavy attacks outperform them easily, since they wont be punished for weaving these.

Youd have to tackle animation canceling as a whole to alleviate that problem.

code65536

Masel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

Why 300? 510 was the cap in late 2015 when CP was initially capped. All of those changes you mentioned happened long after the CP was capped at 510. Many of them within the past year.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are definitely balance problems in this game, but the the amount of scapegoating on CP is bewildering, particularly from class representatives (not just you).

Well then tell me what we should do instead. What do you suggest to do to stop the power gap AND power creep? I've been advocating nerfs instead of buffs to many things across the board to prevent exactly that, and I've never claimed anywhere that cp is the only factor here. Dont assume things about me that you cannot know about.

Sure, I can come up with one very easy solution right now to nerf power in a way that hits the top more than the mainstream or the floor: Any light attacks that land within 2s of a direct damage ability will do only half damage.

While i unterstand the point again, consider how that change would be received by the endgame community.

They'll rage because they wont be rewarded for a more complex, harder to execute playstyle. Light attacks wont be worth it anymore. Halving their damage (which is what this would achieve) will make heavy attacks outperform them easily, since they wont be punished for weaving these.

Youd have to tackle animation canceling as a whole to alleviate that problem.

I meant light/heavy attacks (I edited my post).

And that's the whole point. Yes, you should reward skillful play. But not to the ridiculous extent it is now. ZOS keeps adding things that "reward skillful play", and that's what's causing the power gap. Take, for example, Elemental Weapon. It does great damage. It costs less than other spammables. And it requires perfect weaving. Great, so now the ceiling have a newer, better spammable, while everyone else... well, Elemental Weapon doesn't really do much for the mainstream, does it?

There comes a point when you have to say "enough" and put a cap to how much skillful play rewards players. With a proposed change like this, weaving is still rewarding. And you will still need to do it if you want to be the absolute best. But that reward won't be as outsized as it currently is.

I like weaving. I've mained a magblade since 2015, so weaving is essential, and I like that I'm rewarded for weaving. I don't want to get rid of it. But I also recognize that it requires difficult finger gymnastics and that there are many, many people in this game that can't do it reliably. So, yes, I want to see the rewards for weaving to be reduced. I don't want to see it eliminated. But I don't like it being this giant elephant of a power gap creator, either.

Rikumaru

I like the look of this new CP system over what we have currently, but I would rather see a complete overhaul of the CP system and turn it into more a perk system akin to skyrim. Things such as increasing DOT duration, reducing ulti cost, invis on kill etc with the system giving you only a certain amount of things you can choose. I don't understand why there are people who defend CP and love the fact it gives flat stat increases without anything interesting in the slightest. Especially when the CP system resulted in the nerfs of countless class defining passives and abilities.

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

Why 300? 510 was the cap in late 2015 when CP was initially capped. All of those changes you mentioned happened long after the CP was capped at 510. Many of them within the past year.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are definitely balance problems in this game, but the the amount of scapegoating on CP is bewildering, particularly from class representatives (not just you).

Well then tell me what we should do instead. What do you suggest to do to stop the power gap AND power creep?

Sure, I can come up with one very easy solution right now to nerf power in a way that hits the top more than the mainstream or the floor: Any light/heavy attacks that land within 2s of a direct damage ability will do only half damage.

lol

Masel

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Of course I know that many other changes have contributed to power creep, there is a few very prominent examples:

1. Light attack changes. Boosting them led to a significant increase in dps.
2. Enchantment buffs
3. Set bonus buffs to magicka/critical chance
4. CP scaling for food
5. Staff items counting as 2 piece bonuses.



But cp is undoubtedly one of the contributors that did it in the long run. Comparing 300 to 810 CPs, is a clear and very dominant power difference.

Why 300? 510 was the cap in late 2015 when CP was initially capped. All of those changes you mentioned happened long after the CP was capped at 510. Many of them within the past year.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are definitely balance problems in this game, but the the amount of scapegoating on CP is bewildering, particularly from class representatives (not just you).

Well then tell me what we should do instead. What do you suggest to do to stop the power gap AND power creep? I've been advocating nerfs instead of buffs to many things across the board to prevent exactly that, and I've never claimed anywhere that cp is the only factor here. Dont assume things about me that you cannot know about.

Sure, I can come up with one very easy solution right now to nerf power in a way that hits the top more than the mainstream or the floor: Any light attacks that land within 2s of a direct damage ability will do only half damage.

While i unterstand the point again, consider how that change would be received by the endgame community.

They'll rage because they wont be rewarded for a more complex, harder to execute playstyle. Light attacks wont be worth it anymore. Halving their damage (which is what this would achieve) will make heavy attacks outperform them easily, since they wont be punished for weaving these.

Youd have to tackle animation canceling as a whole to alleviate that problem.

I meant light/heavy attacks (I edited my post).

And that's the whole point. Yes, you should reward skillful play. But not to the ridiculous extent it is now. ZOS keeps adding things that "reward skillful play", and that's what's causing the power gap. Take, for example, Elemental Weapon. It does great damage. It costs less than other spammables. And it requires perfect weaving. Great, so now the ceiling have a newer, better spammable, while everyone else... well, Elemental Weapon doesn't really do much for the mainstream, does it?

There comes a point when you have to say "enough" and put a cap to how much skillful play rewards players. With a proposed change like this, weaving is still rewarding. And you will still need to do it if you want to be the absolute best. But that reward won't be as outsized as it currently is.

I like weaving. I've mained a magblade since 2015, so weaving is essential, and I like that I'm rewarded for weaving. I don't want to get rid of it. But I also recognize that it requires difficult finger gymnastics and that there are many, many people in this game that can't do it reliably. So, yes, I want to see the rewards for weaving to be reduced. I don't want to see it eliminated. But I don't like it being this giant elephant of a power gap creator, either.

Yes, I agree on that. I can bring that up. But I kind of know how the reaction will look like...

Thing is, for many players that play in a group optimisation of the team is what they play for. Classes bringing in buffs/debuffs, sets providing benefits to the whole group, that's what these players like. But the more of these you have, the bigger the gap will be because they increase the level of optimisation you can reach. In order to reduce the gap youd have to remove more of these interactions, but that's not going to be popular (thinking of the NMG and Sunderflame change for example).

And then, we are still in a scenario where group support is dedicated to healers and tanks entirely, and where individual dps is basically what determines which dds come into groups...

kathandira

Masel wrote: »

snip

The colors used in the charts make them unreadable. Can you please change those so the text is clear?

code65536

Masel wrote: »

Yes, I agree on that. I can bring that up. But I kind of know how the reaction will look like...

Haha, yes.

But it needs to be done. Instead of asking "is this a buff" or "is this a nerf", people need to start asking, "will this widen the gap or narrow the gap?" when it comes to examining combat changes.

All the time, I hear people saying things like, "wow, the power creep is real" or "do you remember when this used to be hard?" or "it's ridiculous how easy this is". In fact, I often say those things myself.

The problem is that while the content has become laughingly easy for people at the top, it hasn't become easier for many in the mainstream. I periodically do random vet dungeons using the Group Finder. And it's eye-opening how much people struggle with content that I consider to have been ruined by power creep. Yes, there's been a lot of power creep. But that power creep hasn't affected most of the game.

In short, I don't care how much people at the top complain about being nerfed or being rewarded not quite as richly for their skillful play, because I know for a fact that they complain just as much about being bored.

Parrot1986

A lot of what I feel around power creep has been covered already I.e. proc sets, CP, enchants etc and agree addressing just CP doesn’t resolve power creep. One thing I Feel should be changed is linking resources as well as amplying impact to CP. not having those 20% stats is really felt for lower level players and is an unnecessary penalty for starting out in progression.

I quite like the approach above and like the idea of sacrificing certain things to gain additional others although I have a slightly different take on approach. For me DDs should look to focus on increasing their damage but shouldn’t receive an equal opportunity to also increase their damage mitigation and resource return by such high amounts as well. This isn’t as simple as just doing this as content has been created to just hit as hard as possible than have mechanics that you follow or are punished.

I’ve not put much thought into this so it’s obviously not perfect and I’m viewing this mainly from a group play perspective. for me CP could work that a tank invests in reducing damage taken for them and their allies. Healers amplifies healing and regenerating resources whilst DDs augment their damage and those around them.

This helps keep things closer to true MMO where each role has a specific responsibility. Ideally it’s restricited to not allow cross investment into other trees/roles or if it does the sacrifice is significant enough to not be damage dealing healer tanks like we have today in some content.

This also removes scenarios where you’re better/able to run harder group content without a healer/tank and requires proper composition to clear content and benefit from group play. I miss struggling in COA2 not because I was getting one shotted constantly but because damage out V in was even and there were mechanics/phases which had to be followed and not burnt through.

I’d also much rather have sets which apply static effects like Julianos or Hundings or apply group wide like Night Mothers as well as others which amplify ability damage, stat effect (increase spell damage etc). I’d want to rework sets that just provide raw damage on their own like relequin. This Is more personal feeling but that’s always caused issues in PVE and pvp from relequins damage to vipers proc. When a set does such significant amount of work for the player with little effort you have an issue.

Gnortranermara

I'll do you one better.

1. Cap it at 999.
2. Give a flat 1 Max Health, Mag, Stam, 1 Physical Resistance, and 1 Spell Resistance per CP. Max power gain = 999 Health, 999 Mag, 999 Stam, 999 Physical Resist, and 999 Spell Resist. That's it. No more creep. The creep is dead.
3. Convert the point investment system entirely into endgame utility. (Stuff like % gold gained, % tel var gained, % ap gained, extra resource node yields, # of potions/poisons crafted, better raw material refinement results, out-of-combat movement speed, etc.)

If this were implemented, max CP characters would have much greater QoL and utility, but not too much extra power. This would be a giant nerf so some power might need to be returned elsewhere (give it back to classes, where it belongs).

John_Falstaff

@SidewalkChalk5 , may not be received all too well though. People do have to have a goal towards they're leveling - leveling to get extra power is one thing, leveling to get extra resource node and a potion... not much motivation in such progression. May kill the interest in new players.

MartiniDaniels

Well, i got an idea how to extremely simply rework CP to reduce gap between low-cp and high-cp players.

Do it similar to initial base state distribution. So everybody starts at equal resource pools but with each new level specializes in one of that pools. Make similar with CP. So any player, even lvl3 new one got all the CP810 evenly distributed between all signs and perks, i.e like 20 points to everything from CP trees and without ability to redistribute them until he earns those CP. So at CP 40, all CP consecutively lose 1 point and player got 40 free CP to distribute for his specialization.