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The Alcast no CP vMOL run, is CP really the culprit in power creep?
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iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reasons for the power creep: more powerful sets, changes to game mechanics such as: light attack scaling, execute power inflation coupled with bloodthirsty, and more.
That said, I think zos has done a good job. Some power creep is inevitable and the nature of the sets they have made means they arent BIS in all scenarios. For example, Sioria is massive 600 spell damage set, that only really works on target dummies. Spell strategist and relequen are only single target, cleave matters too.0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭i find it shameful that zos doesnt "seem" to understand that light weaving is and always has been the culprit.
only a few years left to go now....
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code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My thoughts about the run, from another thread:I never understood the point of zero CP. Someone who hits level 50 for the first time start out at 10 CP, not zero. And with the initial enlightenment and the absurdly low cost of the early points, they'll be at 160 CP within a week or two. But I guess zero is a catchier headline.
Eventually, they tried it with 300 CP, and you can see the group DPS increase from 260K to 400K--as expected, as those early CPs are very powerful--by design. Unfortunately they didn't try the original CP cap of 501. I have a sneaking suspicion that at 501 CP, they probably wouldn't have noticed that much of a difference. But I suppose that wouldn't have been as entertaining to watch.
Well, here are some points to consider:- When Hodor got the world's first vMoL speed run in 2016, they had 501 CP. And from the screenshots and videos of that clear, you can see that DPS was roughly around 30K per player on Rakkhat. Yesterday's no-CP Rakkhat pulls had DPS levels that were similar. So 501 CP in 2016 was doing around the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019. Obviously, there's been a lot of power added, and it's obviously not from CP.
- Despite limiting themselves to 300 CP, they still cleared HM. On pad 5. The world-first clear of HM wasn't pad 5. It wasn't pad 7. It went through Lunar. That was during the Shadows of the Hist patch, when the CP cap was 531. If CP is so overpowered, and people back then had 231 more CP than the run yesterday, why did people back then not do pad 5 burns? Not even pad 7 lunar skips?
The correct takeaway from that little demonstration yesterday is that- The early CPs--the ones that are very easily accessible to players--are pretty powerful. As intended and as expected.
- There's been a lot of power that's been added since 2016. And it's not from CP.
So, again, why do topics about CP power creep even exist? I will reiterate that CP is not perfect, and that there are things with CP that need to be addressed, like how CP restricts combat (e.g., remember the days when stam DKs did fire damage and that wasn't a problem?). But CP as the source of power creep? If someone believes that, then boy have I got a bridge to sell to them.
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Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They are simply skilled. The power creep will always exist unless the world adapts to it's players. That's the issue one tamerial brought with everything scaled the same. Still there will always be people be who are more powerful or experienced then others. As to say your comparison is wrong choice.1 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭Emma_Overload wrote: »
Maybe if you checked the patch notes between 1.6 and morrowind you would find your answer there. Are you telling me all of those class defining skills / passives such as major mending on cleanse, 50 cost soul harvest, old DK wings was nerfed just because? Yeah no, didn't think so.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.3 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭well, they finished all the hardest content and want more, new challenges, i assume.
Cure cancer.
Seriously, looking at the achievements of elite players, and extrapolating anything from that is stupid. Designing any content in a game around what very very few people can do is a recipe for failure.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few rings true here, while there are players who play ESO on 24/7 basis, they need to cater for the players who don't get the time to farm for 6 hours looking for equipment or learning mechanics of vMA over and over
They do, there's a Normal difficulty.Cure cancer.
Seriously, looking at the achievements of elite players, and extrapolating anything from that is stupid. Designing any content in a game around what very very few people can do is a recipe for failure.
There's no reason why there shouldn't be some content designed around top tier players (Namely endgame content). Not everyone has to be able to do everything in an MMO.AbysmalGhul wrote: »I still don't see how "power creep" is a problem
Good job to the Hodor crew!
It's not, Power creep to me is an made up phrase to mask an underlying entitlement issue.
"Player X can do content Y or they achieve Z dps and I can't - Since I play the same game, I should be able to as well but I'm not as skilled or dedicated enough but they have the POWER CREEP!1!!"
There should have always been three difficulty tiers, but you just can't avoid entitlement.
What's the real problem with power creep?
Why do people care that someone away from their team, can do X more dps or finish Y content that they can't?vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
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Kuramas9tails✭✭✭✭✭
✭
This makes a lot of sense now.Please dont take Alcast or Hodor as the reference, they are not human.Your friendly neighborhood crazy cat lady of ESO
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JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »
Maybe if you checked the patch notes between 1.6 and morrowind you would find your answer there. Are you telling me all of those class defining skills / passives such as major mending on cleanse, 50 cost soul harvest, old DK wings was nerfed just because? Yeah no, didn't think so.well, they finished all the hardest content and want more, new challenges, i assume.
Cure cancer.
Seriously, looking at the achievements of elite players, and extrapolating anything from that is stupid. Designing any content in a game around what very very few people can do is a recipe for failure.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few rings true here, while there are players who play ESO on 24/7 basis, they need to cater for the players who don't get the time to farm for 6 hours looking for equipment or learning mechanics of vMA over and over
They do, there's a Normal difficulty.Cure cancer.
Seriously, looking at the achievements of elite players, and extrapolating anything from that is stupid. Designing any content in a game around what very very few people can do is a recipe for failure.
There's no reason why there shouldn't be some content designed around top tier players (Namely endgame content). Not everyone has to be able to do everything in an MMO.AbysmalGhul wrote: »I still don't see how "power creep" is a problem
Good job to the Hodor crew!
It's not, Power creep to me is an made up phrase to mask an underlying entitlement issue.
"Player X can do content Y or they achieve Z dps and I can't - Since I play the same game, I should be able to as well but I'm not as skilled or dedicated enough but they have the POWER CREEP!1!!"
There should have always been three difficulty tiers, but you just can't avoid entitlement.
What's the real problem with power creep?
Why do people care that someone away from their team, can do X more dps or finish Y content that they can't?
I agree with all but the last statement, power creep can be an issue, but i do not agree on many of the things said on power creep, because you can blame cp, gear, or whatever it is in the game, but ultimately the fault lies on the devs, who did't balance around the natural power growth of players in a mmo.
Although your last statement do have merit, but i do not think it ties in with what you suggested.Edited by JinMori on March 7, 2019 2:36PM0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People forget that people get better and develop more efficient builds, strategies and rotations overtime. BUT it must be something else I guess.0 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Can’t balance the game around the 1 percent of players in pve or pvp. Basing it off how effective the 1 percent can be will just skew results and opinions.
It’s cp, it’s gear, it’s food and zos. Even without nerfs to original or old dungeons you could solo most of them because of the power creep that came from cp and you can do it with old sets.3 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ya whats with all the no cp videos popping up on my utube feed
Gandok has a vma flawless
And hodor also has a vmol
Obviously people can play pvp and pve without cp why force it on everyone.
Is this a brag thing or an agenda?
They have done it more times then they can count. After long enough you will know the mechanics to even where the portals will be without a thought. The majority of players will never even get close to this ever. Whether due to irl time constraints and that doing such a thing is not important enough to commit the time to. They are extremely good at PvE but still need to do this on every platform for the full challenge. XD
Edited by Girl_Number8 on March 7, 2019 3:06PM2 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »CP, or sets? BS hodor can do it without CP and naked because of knowledge, teamwork and skill.
Completion time will be the only variable.
Yes, this^0 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭well, they finished all the hardest content and want more, new challenges, i assume.
Cure cancer.
Seriously, looking at the achievements of elite players, and extrapolating anything from that is stupid. Designing any content in a game around what very very few people can do is a recipe for failure.
So true. It was as if that was insightful 2 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Girl_Number8 wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »CP, or sets? BS hodor can do it without CP and naked because of knowledge, teamwork and skill.
Completion time will be the only variable.
Yes, this^
Did anyone do it naked? I thought it was without CP not naked.0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Girl_Number8 wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »CP, or sets? BS hodor can do it without CP and naked because of knowledge, teamwork and skill.
Completion time will be the only variable.
Yes, this^
Did anyone do it naked? I thought it was without CP not naked.
I said they could not that they did.0 -
Grandma✭✭✭✭✭like i said 100 times before, people who whine about power creep and blame it on cp have no idea what they're talking about, and probably haven't even gotten to the gear cap yet.
At this point i sound like a broken record, but other people on this thread explain it better; gear and mechanics, not cp.GH / 3/04/2021 / Elemental Catalyst Necromancer7 -
Dragneel1207✭✭✭✭CP is not the cause for the power creep.
If is it so then i should be powerful with the cp i have
and i am not powerful3 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭like i said 100 times before, people who whine about power creep and blame it on cp have no idea what they're talking about, and probably haven't even gotten to the gear cap yet.
At this point i sound like a broken record, but other people on this thread explain it better; gear and mechanics, not cp.
QFT
This cannot be repeated enough.1 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Girl_Number8 wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »CP, or sets? BS hodor can do it without CP and naked because of knowledge, teamwork and skill.
Completion time will be the only variable.
Yes, this^
Did anyone do it naked? I thought it was without CP not naked.
Some were probably naked while looking at their screens. I am sure Alcast could enlighten us further if he likes to play occasionally bare-a***d for the thrill.
0 -
Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »
Maybe if you checked the patch notes between 1.6 and morrowind you would find your answer there. Are you telling me all of those class defining skills / passives such as major mending on cleanse, 50 cost soul harvest, old DK wings was nerfed just because? Yeah no, didn't think so.
I looked and I can’t find in the patch notes between 1.6 and Morrowind where ZOS stars that those nerfs were due to CP. can you share the part where they mage that statement? Thanks!
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Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think the biggest difference you'd notice by taking CPs away from a max CP player is the defense, not damage.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA4 -
Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭My thoughts about the run, from another thread.
[*]When Hodor got the world's first vMoL speed run in 2016, they had 501 CP. And from the screenshots and videos of that clear, you can see that DPS was roughly around 30K per player on Rakkhat. Yesterday's no-CP Rakkhat pulls had DPS levels that were similar. So 501 CP in 2016 was doing around the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019. Obviously, there's been a lot of power added, and it's obviously not from CP.
Thanks for sharing. I thought your point about 0CP today and 501CP in 2016 hitting roughly the same DPS was interesting.
2 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭Both CP and gear are source of insane power creep and BOTH need deep and thorough nerf (removal of CP as power enhamcing thing and change to utility one)1
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Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Both CP and gear are source of insane power creep and BOTH need deep and thorough nerf (removal of CP as power enhamcing thing and change to utility one)
As usual you continue to utter the provably false mantra of CP and power creep.
Assertions do not make facts.
Did you even read the post just above yours showing 0 cp doing as much damage now as 501 cp in 2016?Edited by Skwor on March 7, 2019 4:20PM10 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭well, they finished all the hardest content and want more, new challenges, i assume.
Cure cancer.
Seriously, looking at the achievements of elite players, and extrapolating anything from that is stupid. Designing any content in a game around what very very few people can do is a recipe for failure.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few rings true here, while there are players who play ESO on 24/7 basis, they need to cater for the players who don't get the time to farm for 6 hours looking for equipment or learning mechanics of vMA over and over
They do, there's a Normal difficulty.Cure cancer.
Seriously, looking at the achievements of elite players, and extrapolating anything from that is stupid. Designing any content in a game around what very very few people can do is a recipe for failure.
There's no reason why there shouldn't be some content designed around top tier players (Namely endgame content). Not everyone has to be able to do everything in an MMO.AbysmalGhul wrote: »I still don't see how "power creep" is a problem
Good job to the Hodor crew!
It's not, Power creep to me is an made up phrase to mask an underlying entitlement issue.
"Player X can do content Y or they achieve Z dps and I can't - Since I play the same game, I should be able to as well but I'm not as skilled or dedicated enough but they have the POWER CREEP!1!!"
There should have always been three difficulty tiers, but you just can't avoid entitlement.
What's the real problem with power creep?
Why do people care that someone away from their team, can do X more dps or finish Y content that they can't?
Beautiful.They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd1 -
Tonnopesce✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.Signature0 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.0 -
Commancho✭✭✭✭✭Sets are OP, CP is OP, this is OP, OP that... Lets nerf everything in the oblivion and then we will find another way around to make you grinding again! Seriously, I'm already SICK of online games and crybabies ruining them. I played hundreds of hours to get max CP, legendary gear, all researches, fully upgraded mount etc so I deserve a power creep!!!1
