BattleAxe wrote: »

At first I thought there was gonna be some logic here seeing a chart but looking closer just a chart of complaints. Races are as of now fairly balanced dps parsing within 1-2k depending if the race has no passives toward the dps whether mag or stam.

What I have yet to see is a good replacement passive since altmer aren’t gonna get main resource sustain back at least for the foreseeable future.

Few suggests I’ve seen were related to damage shields I suggest something similar but after consideration this would make altmer the go to mag dps race reguardless how close in parses races are.

Increase damage shield strength.
Why choose Breton at all then cuz shields are just effectively an increase of health.(also takes ur resistance into account on shields.)

Increase shield duration or reduce cost. Both are essentially sustain boosts.

More max magicka. This would boost damage even more

Effectively there isn’t much your gonna suggest for an altmer that won’t put it ahead of other races.

Also it was said races were balanced around the current cp system interesting notion when they may completely get rid of cp and set up a new progression system which may very well be based around these current racial passives.

ZoS doesn’t always get it right but they have a plan this yr to be a yr long story does it not occur to anyone perhaps the updates and changes will follow this idea and perhaps next up date changes will be made around racial passives.

But I’m an internet troll becuz I simply asked why keep this argument going when it was already stated by another this just gets argued in circles.

I personally just chime in in These threads because Altmer were also balanced with the mag recovery and I have yet to see why the passive had to be removed instead of getting its value adjusted.
The stuff you are listing here that would apparently make Altmer the go to pick wouldnt actually make Altmer the go to pick in pve at all.
Increasing Shield strength wont do anything because current shields are enough to survive and if they are not its not an issue of Shield strength but rather an issue of a Shield getting hit by something its not supposed to get hit by. And why go Breton if Shield strength of Altmer gets increased? Idk, maybe for the, you know, mag Sustain while hitting similar numbers? Or are you choosing Breton because it gets 2k spell resistance? I sure wouldnt. In pvp it would , depending on the value of the passive ofc, be quite the buff yes.

Increase Shield Duration is not a Sustain buff, no one is precasting shields 5 seconds early. Shields are getting casted reactively, you see a threating mechanic coming to you which you cannot avoid anymore? You cast a Shield or Shield and block if Need be. You generally dont cast a Shield when nothing happens and hope that something happens that makes casting the Shield worthwhile. Applies even more so to pvp. So yeah wouldnt Change Sustain at all.
More max mag might be too much of a dps buff depending on how big of an amount we are talking about, but it would atleast change the Sustain race having 50% off the Damage race Damage passives while the Damage race has 0% off the Sustain race´s Sustain passives.
The probably simplest idea would be to replace the offstat Sustain with the Health like Orc has since Health is going to benefit you everywhere (yes it helps in pve to hit a good Health amount prebuffed aka without ebon or toughness, it also increases Shield strength since they are capped with Health instead of mag).
Races, atleast the max resource bonuses, were actually balanced around Champion Points, it was stated by zos that we wouldnt loose many if any max resources at all compared to the former % bonuses because of the passives interaction with cp which got changed this very patch.
And Zos not always getting it right is a good reason to speak up, especially because nothing ever gets hotfixed unless it breaks something and we will be stuck 3 months Minimum with an unnecessary Change and a for many useless passive. Also the prospect of being stuck with a passive that does next to nothing for me and we are all memeing about in our Trial runs (alongside me being asked by multiple People why I even bother with Altmer) for 3 to 9 months or even longer just because Zos might have future plans really isnt all that appealing if you ask me.

@Sanguinor2

Altmer are very balanced right now without their sustain.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459447/dps-comparison-of-races-on-pts-v4-3-3-pretty-graphs-analyses-and-farming-for-insightful-votes/p1

In both of these studies, they are comfortably in the top dps seat. The second study, in particular, is very well conducted, even with human error taken out of the equation through the use of macros.

twing1_ wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

What I have yet to see is a good replacement passive since altmer aren’t gonna get main resource sustain back at least for the foreseeable future.

@BattleAxe

Allowing high elves to gain restore more resources on heavy attacks would help out altmers in healing roles (by giving them some sustain to help keep up with Breton) while leaving their dps parses largely untouched (because serious dps parses strictly light weave to maximize damage).

Increasing their chance to apply status effects would very very slightly increase their dps if they choose to use a fire staff, but also provide great group support and incentive to run a lightning staff to provide better uptime on minor vulnerability, which all group members can take advantage of.

Problem with first suggestion is it’s sustain which ZoS clearly doesn’t want them to have. However thinking on both ideas combine it in the sense of heavy attacking has increased chance to apply status effect this way the damage minor damage increase is essentially negated due to the time to heavy attack. Also altmer would keep the 5% on channel and cast time which also goes with the heavy attacking could call this passive spell focus

Not to burst bubble but when a thread keeps popping up or new ones by the same few individuals it doesn’t exactly stick out when only 3-4 people on the forums support the OP.

No offense but when you have 5 people hollering the end is near causing an uproar and insulting anyone who doesn’t support them it makes that side less likely to be heard. All I’m trying to get across is ok this patch may not have made altmer the hands down BiS for mag but now for dps You have options and not just 1-2 races. Who knows next update may introduce some features that may make altmer a spell recharge make sense same goes for bosmer. A “nerf” now may actually be a pre big update buff

BattleAxe wrote: »

Not to burst bubble but when a thread keeps popping up or new ones by the same few individuals it doesn’t exactly stick out when only 3-4 people on the forums support the OP.

No offense but when you have 5 people hollering the end is near causing an uproar and insulting anyone who doesn’t support them it makes that side less likely to be heard. All I’m trying to get across is ok this patch may not have made altmer the hands down BiS for mag but now for dps You have options and not just 1-2 races. Who knows next update may introduce some features that may make altmer a spell recharge make sense same goes for bosmer. A “nerf” now may actually be a pre big update buff

I hope I am not included into your post but I am going to reply regardless since I started Posting to threads regarding the Altmer passive after 4.3.3 or something. First of all I dont think I´ve been either insulting nor causing an uproar or saying that the end is near. neither have I ever advocated for Altmer becoming the Hands down BiS dps.
I also dont think that the quantity of something being said makes it better or worse
Your Sentiment of maybe, perhaps, there might be something happening or not next patch that will make this passive useful doesnt mean that the passive is useful as it is on live, since it requiring artificial aid to become useful kind of implies that it is not in its current state.
You could apply that to every balance decision made ever and that wouldnt make every balance decision made ever a good one. Remember magdk emps being unkillable while casting infinite bat swarms and wiping everyone in range? Yeah was fixed eventually. Was it good balance? Nah not really.

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

How often must this been repeated? ZOS doesn't want a race to have a Spell/Weapon damage racial + a main stat sustain/restore racial at the same time.

And I still think that this is an unnecessary to just throw it onto everything without looking at the individual cases. Orc with stam regen would be too strong since Orc is already pretty ahead of other stam races, but Altmer with the mag Sustain wasnt ahead, so yeah still think that it wasnt necessary.

Necessary or not isn't the point here. Main stat regen is excluding a main damage bonus and vice versa. I mean you can dislike that or find the reasoning questionable but it was clearly stated by ZOS that this is one of their approaches and they followed it in this regard.

Altmers wont be 10% ahead of everyone else and got one of the best utility passives in this patch.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Yea, changing the races wasn’t a bad idea. Ended up okay even if altmer got screwed.

Problem is whether intended or not people chose altmer for sustain pre-patch. Now it’s Breton. Then they got a useless passive reducing channeled time damage no one likes unless you’re a templar.

Either way - move on. I don’t see the issue. Altmer looked funny anyways so I don’t mind changing. Are there really Altmer lovers who only made Altmers pre-patch? They were annoying in Skyrim, especially the guy from the mage guild quest, so don’t mind not being associated with them anymore.

Altmer did not get screwed, yes they should get an more usable passive like shield strength like some suggested.
Keeping the magic regen would make them OP and required nerfs in other stats so an better survival passive would be nice.
Bosmer loss of stealth was pointless, stealth is like the 2K resources most have.
Khajiit need an small buff to make them more in line with Dunmer,

Keeping the magicka regen would not have made them OP. Being slightly better at something does not = OP.

If there was a good reason to strip high elves of their magicka regen bonuses I can't think of one.

It would be against ZOS own ruleset of either damage or sustain -> not going to happen so no point talking about it. Altmer won't get a Magicka sustain passive.

If that's the case: then Altmer have been in violation of their rules since closed beta. Because they have had passive bonuses to both damage and sustain since the game's release.

In any case: it's a silly rule and let's not pretend that ZoS never decides to break their own rules. I remember when they said they were never going to abandon their subscription model.

It's one of the major points in their write up for the racial changes in 4.3 but why bother with it...

It's not silly. It makes sense to make differentiate the races more, e.g. sustain races and damage races (and utility races). Before the changes why even bother with Bretons, Altmer and Dunmer did everything better because they had additional damage and sustain. Now Bretons fill the niche of a sustain Magicka race and benefit greatly by that. It's one of the stated design goals and they applied this to every race (for Stamina we have Orc on the damage and Redguard on the sustain).

I call it silly because there is nothing wrong with a race being the best at a certain type of magic. Where does this idea that all races have to be balanced even come from? It defeats the entire purpose of racial passives and strengths to begin with: because that is the whole point of them in the first place - to make those races better than others at certain things.

If no one wanted to be a Breton then the answer would be to strengthen them in some other area players could take advantage of. It isn't to strip other races of the individual strengths that made them interesting to begin with. And they could have given Breton an increase to sustain without taking it away from Altmer anyway. So it's just silly to me like I said. You can have two races that have advantages in magical sustain and damage without hurting the game. These are stupid rules the developers are placing on themselves for no logical reason that I can see. In other words: they are annoying their players for no good reason here.

They really just need to stop trying to appeal to the min/max crowd - which makes up a tiny tiny percentage of this game's population. It's going to be the death of this game if they keep on going down that road because it turns off many more players than it impresses.

BattleAxe wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

I think you are over exaggerating some of these problems.

These are the stated dev goals and whether or not they were met for each race:



It is no exaggeration to say that if this were a test, ZOS failed with an abysmal 60% score. This is pathetic, because it is an absurdly simple task. Not only is that demonstrated by your suggestion (which seems to be based off my earlier one), but it is literally true that elementary school children could do a better job than this. I've been coding for over 25 years and I've raised my children coding since they were old enough to sit at a computer. My fifth grader has achieved significantly more complex tasks than this in his Scratch and RPGMaker games. It's truly pathetic that a triple-A gaming company produced such shoddy work.

At first I thought there was gonna be some logic here seeing a chart but looking closer just a chart of complaints. Races are as of now fairly balanced dps parsing within 1-2k depending if the race has no passives toward the dps whether mag or stam.

What I have yet to see is a good replacement passive since altmer aren’t gonna get main resource sustain back at least for the foreseeable future.

Few suggests I’ve seen were related to damage shields I suggest something similar but after consideration this would make altmer the go to mag dps race reguardless how close in parses races are.

Increase damage shield strength.
Why choose Breton at all then cuz shields are just effectively an increase of health.(also takes ur resistance into account on shields.)

Increase shield duration or reduce cost. Both are essentially sustain boosts.

More max magicka. This would boost damage even more

Effectively there isn’t much your gonna suggest for an altmer that won’t put it ahead of other races.

You forgot the most common one.

1000 Max Health and heals you for up to 600 when you deal damage with a four second cooldown.

What is the problem with this?

I also like the shields duration idea. I dont see how its a sustain boost when it cost resources and does not regen them. I see it as more of a defensive passive which Altmer is lacking in as well.

At least either of these would be somewhat useful, without affecting magicka sustain.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Altmer are a pure magic race leaning towards destruction. This is not debatable. Just save us all the nerves and think of a better solution.

Leaning towards destruction: spell damage, not sustain, so this makes sense

"Pure magic race": definition? Exactly, there is no official one. They explained the Spell Recharge effect with Alteration magic although it's more a mixture of Restoration and Alteration, e.g. "High Elves restore Magicka and due to Alteration magic convert that into Stamina" - this totally fits your narrative of a "pure magic race", the outcome is just not what you like.

It's not me how's spinning around some head canon stuff, it's you and all the complainers who say Stamina restoration for High Elves is somehow lorebreaking when in fact it's not. It might not be what comes to your mind first when thinking about High Elves but in no way is this against Elder Scrolls lore (and you'd know that if you really cared for ES lore in the last 15 years like you said).

Man, you're just a lost cause. No matter how thoroughly it's explained to you, you just don't get it. Waste of time.

A lost cause because I don't follow your headcanon lore and prefer ZOS' approach of these things? Ok.

I race changed from altmer to Breton. The passive spell recharge is garbage.

Sustain is now horrid on an altmer.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Altmer are a pure magic race leaning towards destruction. This is not debatable. Just save us all the nerves and think of a better solution.

Leaning towards destruction: spell damage, not sustain, so this makes sense

"Pure magic race": definition? Exactly, there is no official one. They explained the Spell Recharge effect with Alteration magic although it's more a mixture of Restoration and Alteration, e.g. "High Elves restore Magicka and due to Alteration magic convert that into Stamina" - this totally fits your narrative of a "pure magic race", the outcome is just not what you like.

It's not me how's spinning around some head canon stuff, it's you and all the complainers who say Stamina restoration for High Elves is somehow lorebreaking when in fact it's not. It might not be what comes to your mind first when thinking about High Elves but in no way is this against Elder Scrolls lore (and you'd know that if you really cared for ES lore in the last 15 years like you said).

Man, you're just a lost cause. No matter how thoroughly it's explained to you, you just don't get it. Waste of time.

A lost cause because I don't follow your headcanon lore and prefer ZOS' approach of these things? Ok.

A lost cause because you just can't grasp things, no matter how much it's explained to you.

PURE SPELLCASTER RACE - That was the design behind Altmer. So no stamina.

SPECIALIZED IN MAGIC - See the word "stamina" here? Didn't think so.

NEVER HAD A STAMINA RACIAL - Clear to everyone but you why. You'll find no lore saying they never had a stam racial. You'll never find lore that says they had, neither. But you will find lore saying they are gifted with magic (magicka racial). So what argumentation has an advantage here, hm?

ZOS EVEN RETCONNED THE STAM RACIAL THE BE MAGICAL - That's how desperate they are. They're trying to sell stamina regen as a magical feat. Because even they realized how stupid that racial is. Which makes them superior to you, at least. Unfortunate that they went half-hearted about it.

Won’t find anything lore wise about stamina give this a read

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Altmer

Doesn’t say stamina but endurance is wut oblivion called stamina also speed is in this as well.

BattleAxe wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Altmer are a pure magic race leaning towards destruction. This is not debatable. Just save us all the nerves and think of a better solution.

Leaning towards destruction: spell damage, not sustain, so this makes sense

"Pure magic race": definition? Exactly, there is no official one. They explained the Spell Recharge effect with Alteration magic although it's more a mixture of Restoration and Alteration, e.g. "High Elves restore Magicka and due to Alteration magic convert that into Stamina" - this totally fits your narrative of a "pure magic race", the outcome is just not what you like.

It's not me how's spinning around some head canon stuff, it's you and all the complainers who say Stamina restoration for High Elves is somehow lorebreaking when in fact it's not. It might not be what comes to your mind first when thinking about High Elves but in no way is this against Elder Scrolls lore (and you'd know that if you really cared for ES lore in the last 15 years like you said).

Man, you're just a lost cause. No matter how thoroughly it's explained to you, you just don't get it. Waste of time.

A lost cause because I don't follow your headcanon lore and prefer ZOS' approach of these things? Ok.

A lost cause because you just can't grasp things, no matter how much it's explained to you.

PURE SPELLCASTER RACE - That was the design behind Altmer. So no stamina.

SPECIALIZED IN MAGIC - See the word "stamina" here? Didn't think so.

NEVER HAD A STAMINA RACIAL - Clear to everyone but you why. You'll find no lore saying they never had a stam racial. You'll never find lore that says they had, neither. But you will find lore saying they are gifted with magic (magicka racial). So what argumentation has an advantage here, hm?

ZOS EVEN RETCONNED THE STAM RACIAL THE BE MAGICAL - That's how desperate they are. They're trying to sell stamina regen as a magical feat. Because even they realized how stupid that racial is. Which makes them superior to you, at least. Unfortunate that they went half-hearted about it.

Won’t find anything lore wise about stamina give this a read

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Altmer

Doesn’t say stamina but endurance is wut oblivion called stamina also speed is in this as well.

They're all so deadlocked in their "Altmer is inferior", "this is lorebreaking" narrative that it really doesn't matter anymore, honestly.

Seraphayel wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Altmer are a pure magic race leaning towards destruction. This is not debatable. Just save us all the nerves and think of a better solution.

Leaning towards destruction: spell damage, not sustain, so this makes sense

"Pure magic race": definition? Exactly, there is no official one. They explained the Spell Recharge effect with Alteration magic although it's more a mixture of Restoration and Alteration, e.g. "High Elves restore Magicka and due to Alteration magic convert that into Stamina" - this totally fits your narrative of a "pure magic race", the outcome is just not what you like.

It's not me how's spinning around some head canon stuff, it's you and all the complainers who say Stamina restoration for High Elves is somehow lorebreaking when in fact it's not. It might not be what comes to your mind first when thinking about High Elves but in no way is this against Elder Scrolls lore (and you'd know that if you really cared for ES lore in the last 15 years like you said).

Man, you're just a lost cause. No matter how thoroughly it's explained to you, you just don't get it. Waste of time.

A lost cause because I don't follow your headcanon lore and prefer ZOS' approach of these things? Ok.

A lost cause because you just can't grasp things, no matter how much it's explained to you.

PURE SPELLCASTER RACE - That was the design behind Altmer. So no stamina.

SPECIALIZED IN MAGIC - See the word "stamina" here? Didn't think so.

NEVER HAD A STAMINA RACIAL - Clear to everyone but you why. You'll find no lore saying they never had a stam racial. You'll never find lore that says they had, neither. But you will find lore saying they are gifted with magic (magicka racial). So what argumentation has an advantage here, hm?

ZOS EVEN RETCONNED THE STAM RACIAL THE BE MAGICAL - That's how desperate they are. They're trying to sell stamina regen as a magical feat. Because even they realized how stupid that racial is. Which makes them superior to you, at least. Unfortunate that they went half-hearted about it.

Won’t find anything lore wise about stamina give this a read

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Altmer

Doesn’t say stamina but endurance is wut oblivion called stamina also speed is in this as well.

They're all so deadlocked in their "Altmer is inferior", "this is lorebreaking" narrative that it really doesn't matter anymore, honestly.

I hope you aren't including me in this sentiment.

I think Altmer is comfortably seated at the top of the dps parses. Spell recharge, the way ZOS explained it, could feasibly be part of their lore too.

My concern with this passive is that it brings magicka altmer and magicka dunmer too close together. They are too similar to be considered separate races.

With spell recharge, this is an Altmer:
2000 max mag
Stamina utility (+ stam sustain)
258 spell damage

This is a magicka dunmer:
~2000 max mag (1875)
Stamina utility (+ max stam)
258 spell damage

What is your defense against this lack of differentiation between these races? As you've stated, it doesn't make sense for the races to be so similar:

Seraphayel wrote: »

It's not silly. It makes sense to make differentiate the races more, e.g. sustain races and damage races (and utility races). Before the changes why even bother with Bretons, Altmer and Dunmer did everything better because they had additional damage and sustain. Now Bretons fill the niche of a sustain Magicka race and benefit greatly by that. It's one of the stated design goals and they applied this to every race (for Stamina we have Orc on the damage and Redguard on the sustain).

But now it's why even bother with dunmer or altmer, as they are effectively interchangeable in magicka roles.