About the High Elf sustain Passive

ezio45

LiquidPony wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

I think its a weak passive.It amounts to what, 200 or so resource recovery but only in combat and only when you are actually mashing class abilities every x seconds. My stamblade is seriously looking at transforming into a dunmer. Since he is a vampire there isn't even any visual difference anyway. But I hate being semi-forced to do so if I want to get the best out of my character.

It is not only in combat.

depending on the class skill, if your only using single target abilities its only when you have something to hit

Vapirko

NyassaV wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

My concern with this is isn't the ability itself, it's that it ended up on the wrong race.

Dunmer are regarded as the agile warrior-caster race, why shouldn't they get stamina sustain to reflect this? Lore would dictate they should be the ones that can roll dodge and break free more. Conversely, on the stamina side of things, they would be superior casters through more magicka utility for things like crowd control and self heals, doubling down on their lore as warrior-casters if they received this bonus.

Yes, they have more max stamina to begin with but now altmer have have stamina sustain to compete. This grants both races minimal access to more roll dodges/break frees, when really dunmer should be pulling ahead in this department by a large margin.

That's why they get the max stam and weapon damage. Max stam is also a type of "stam sustain" though not quite as effective.

Dunmers are amazing rn. Being able to change specs on a whim? It’s the dream for PvPers who like to change builds a lot and try new things.

Sanguinor2

I dont like that passive because it does not offer much for pve, while the previous Iteration did not make Altmer op and would´ve been useful in both pve and pvp. I didnt have Trouble sustaining stam in pvp and most issues in stam Sustain for pve are most likely issues of missing experience and not, ah I really Need more stam Sustain now, you also get it from undaunted command passive and can and should invest green cp in cost reductions for break free etc. depending on Content so it is really unnecessary.
Vma is a very good example of that because in the beginning everyone starting it will have a bad time sustaining stam and in General, but the more you know the mechanics the less stam you Need, I cant remember the last time my stam pool dropped below 30% in vma, might´ve been a few years ago. This passive will absolutely not save you if you run into severe stam issues in the first place.
What dissapoints me the most with that Change is that I simply cannot understand the reasoning behind the Change. The dev note provided by Zos explains Nothing because Altmer never was in a place that would get it mixed up with a Sustain race, there was already a clear Separation. Altmer wasnt so ahead for pve that it needed a Sustain nerf and the Sustain from 4.3.0 was not strong enough to drop other Sources of Sustain. It is a quite interesting coincidence that the stam regen only came after the pvp lead took over balance.
Add to that a 2nd part of this wonderful passive that is so useless that you even forgot to list it in your OP and you might understand why many Altmer dont like the change.

MLGProPlayer

It's still completely useless in PvE.

I've never run into stamina issues in PvE. And even if I do (because I screw up mechanically), 215 stamina regen (that's with 100% proc uptime) won't save me. It might be slightly useful for a new player, but once you learn the mechanics in dungeons/trials, stamina management becomes an afterthought.

This is still 100% a PvP passive.

Razorback174

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

It is a quite interesting coincidence that the stam regen only came after the pvp lead took over balance.

This alone makes me worried for the future of this game. I can understand balancing, but this guy seems to be destroying racial identities to get there. It really explains why they ripped stealth reduction off Bosmer and gave them a horribly niche detection increase, which is still hardly useful outside of even the most situational moment in Cyrodiil.

Bosmer are now guards and have nothing to do with stealth (lore-breaking)
Altmer are a magic race, but now they only regen stamina (lore-breaking)
Nords are warrirors that are now worthless if they choose to use anything other than a sword and shield (lore-breaking)

Urvoth

Except it's worse than the dunmer +1875 stam, and the 5% dmg reduction while casting is useless for most builds compared to the universal flame resist and burning immunity.

MLGProPlayer

Razorback174 wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

It is a quite interesting coincidence that the stam regen only came after the pvp lead took over balance.

This alone makes me worried for the future of this game. I can understand balancing, but this guy seems to be destroying racial identities to get there. It really explains why they ripped stealth reduction off Bosmer and gave them a horribly niche detection increase, which is still hardly useful outside of even the most situational moment in Cyrodiil.

Bosmer are now guards and have nothing to do with stealth (lore-breaking)
Altmer are a magic race, but now they only regen stamina (lore-breaking)
Nords are warrirors that are now worthless if they choose to use anything other than a sword and shield (lore-breaking)

The CP re-balance is going to be a disaster, I'm calling it now. I'm betting large parts of the system will only benefit PvP.

kargen27

"stupid"

Read that word and didn't read another.

You could have the greatest point/idea in the history of these forums but you do yourself no favors by starting with an insult.

twing1_

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I see no situation where Altmer is worth using over other races in pve this patch.

All truly min/maxed magicka dps builds prefer altmer, because they are currently sporting the highest dps parses.

Maybe on a dummy parse, but I don’t think this holds true in trials.

Let’s take a vAS+2 score push as an example. Say a group of 8 Dunmer is clearing in 6 minutes. The 125 Max Magicka difference from Dunmer to Altmer translates to about 0.2% DPS. This means if all 8 players race changed to Altmer the time would go from 360 seconds to 359.3 seconds. Less than 1 second difference. I’m not even sure if the score is affected by changes less than 1 second, it might just round to the nearest second.

And if we’re being realistic about it, Dunmer will be able to survive more without shielding, so if Altmer casts even 1 more shield (for something like fire, or running out of stamina while blocking a cone) it is suddenly lower DPS than Dunmer.

How would dunmer be able to survive more without shielding? The fire resistance? Or the extra half of a roll dodge they get with their max stam, that will be surpassed by altmer's sustain tool in ~25 seconds?

I don't think either of these benefits makes a large enough difference to protect them enough to prevent them from casting an additional shield.

I'm not saying the damage difference between dunmer and altmer isn't negligible; it by all means is. Also negligible is the difference between their stamina utility passives. And because the differences between these two passives are so negligible, that leaves the defensive bonuses of these two races (fire resist and damage reduction while casting) as the only significant difference between these two races.

Right now, I think it is a toss up between which of these two races players will choose. I don't think the player base will overwhelmingly choose one or the other. It is completely up to personal preference, if someone likes the looks of dark elf they will choose dunmer while if someone likes the looks of high elf they will choose altmer.

This creates a problem in itself: these two races are statistically so identical to each other that there is no reason to choose one over the other. They both lack flavor.

An argument can be made that the Dunmer's ability to be specced for either stamina or magicka can sway some people toward that direction, but typically when people create an endgame build (because that is what we are talking about here, endgame viability) they already have an idea of whether they want to spec stamina or they want to spec magicka and have no plans to switch between the two. And, if they do plan on building an endgame stamina build, they would more than likely just roll a brand new orc character rather than respeccing their dunmer, because orcs overshadow dunmer as endgame stamina damage dealers in all ways. Therefore, I don't think this ability will draw too much of the player base toward dunmer over altmer, and definitely not a significant amount of the hardcore trials score running crowd.

Something needs to be done to differentiate these two races.

If I had things my way, i would simply change altmer's spell recharge away from stamina utility (to give the slight advantage to the dunmer in this regard) and give them a tiny bonus to magicka that doesn't affect their dps parses. Even something as harmless as allowing altmer to get more resources back on heavy attacks would suffice, just anything that isn't off-stat utility. This heavy attack passive would help altmer in healer and stamina roles while not affecting magicka dps parses. It would synergiize nicely with their defensive bonus too, as heavy attacks are considered cast time/channeled abilities.

Though, if we're talking about my la-la land dream improvements, the whole racial balance would look a bit more like this:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459197/racial-rebalance-v4-3-x#latest

Sanguinor2

I still havent seen a convincing Argument why Altmer needed to loose the mag Sustain part of spell recharge, it couldve been tweaked had it been truly op, alltho data from 4.3.0 doesnt support that, same with khajit Change, simply tweaking the crit Chance and seeing the results would´ve been a far better Approach instead of kicking it into the trash bin.
It is quite sad to see that still Nothing changed at the balance Approach from Zos, imagine if they would actually do small changes and tweaks to something instead of instantly deleting it.

WrathOfInnos

twing1_ wrote: »

How would dunmer be able to survive more without shielding? The fire resistance? Or the extra half of a roll dodge they get with their max stam, that will be surpassed by altmer's sustain tool in ~25 seconds?

I don't think either of these benefits makes a large enough difference to protect them enough to prevent them from casting an additional shield.

Yeah, I mostly meant the fire damage, it works out to almost 5% reduced damage from fire. Not sure how often burning procs in there (I don't think much) but that could help too.

The Dunmer stam is nice for blocking a Llothis cone too. If it's on you, you don't really need to shield unless you run out of stamina. The Dunmer max stam is much more likely to hold out through this burst of damage than Altmer even if you get 1 stam return proc during it. Anything close to 25s later and you'll be back at full stam on any race.

I agree with you that the main problem is that Dunmer and Altmer are too similar. Basically they just turned Altmer into a (IMO) slightly less desirable version of Dunmer. And there's really no race that fills the role of Altmer (a mix of decent damage with a little sustain and no defense).

LegacyDM

You want sustain? Go Breton. Problem solved. High elves who wNt their cake and eat it too.

ATreeGnome

I don't really object to the passive in and of itself. I'm frustrated because I think that changing the passive to restore the lower maximum resource made Altmer and Dunmer too similar with respect to the magicka PvE DPS role. The both feel like good options, which is how it should be, but the only significant differentiating factor between the two is that Dunmer can swap to stamina and still benefit from their passives.

There were just a lot of ideas out there for Altmer utility passives that would have made them feel more unique and we got one of the few that makes them feel less unique.

twing1_

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

How would dunmer be able to survive more without shielding? The fire resistance? Or the extra half of a roll dodge they get with their max stam, that will be surpassed by altmer's sustain tool in ~25 seconds?

I don't think either of these benefits makes a large enough difference to protect them enough to prevent them from casting an additional shield.

Yeah, I mostly meant the fire damage, it works out to almost 5% reduced damage from fire. Not sure how often burning procs in there (I don't think much) but that could help too.

The Dunmer stam is nice for blocking a Llothis cone too. If it's on you, you don't really need to shield unless you run out of stamina. The Dunmer max stam is much more likely to hold out through this burst of damage than Altmer even if you get 1 stam return proc during it. Anything close to 25s later and you'll be back at full stam on any race.

I agree with you that the main problem is that Dunmer and Altmer are too similar. Basically they just turned Altmer into a (IMO) slightly less desirable version of Dunmer. And there's really no race that fills the role of Altmer (a mix of decent damage with a little sustain and no defense).

Base block cost is 1730/half second, or 3460/second. With 100 cp in shadow ward (block cost reduction), this number jumps down to 2596/second.

The extra max stam dunmer get, after taking into account the 20% cp bonus, results in less than an additional second of blocking (2250) even if 100 cp are allocated into block cost reduction. So even in regards to blocking, it's a very negligible bonus.

If, however, dunmer were granted spell recharge in addition to their bonus to max stam.... Maybe the combination of these two miniscule stamina utility passives would actually provide a real reason for someone to choose dunmer over altmer.

Then, in compensation, the altmer could receive a small bonus to magicka use in some way (heavy attacks restore more resources?) to give players a reason to choose the altmer as well.

Small changes like these would make leaps and bounds to establishing unique idenities for these two races, while at the same time not giving one or the other too large an advantage over the other in dps parses.

This would allow each of these races to excel under different circumstances and give them different strengths and weaknesses, all the while keeping them equally competitive in end game content.

I even hold the unpopular opinion that Dunmer's resources could be dropped down to 1500 mag/stam to further solidify the tradeoff between altmer/dunmer, but that's just me thinking pure races should out-parse hybrid races (even if just barely).

But again, I'd simply settle for spell recharge on altmer being changed to something, anything other than off-stat utility. This isn't a nerf dunmer post. I just want to salvage these two races' unique identities.

BattleAxe

Razorback174 wrote: »

I can honestly say that my mag characters have had little to no trouble managing their stamina in most PvE content because they rarely tap into it unless they have to. Even this new passive is so marginal of a return, you'll hardly notice a difference at all.

If we're going to use vMA as an argument, fine, but that is a single piece of content. No passive should be THAT hamstrung as being usable in PvP (barely) and a single piece of endgame content (again, barely).

I like to look at Orcs for comparison here, the stamina equivalent of Altmer, both being the "damage" races, as ZoS insists.

Both get a max resource stat (altmer + max magic, orc + max stamina)
Both get a max damage stat (altmer + spell damage, orc + weapon damage)

They are carbon copies up to this point. The key area where they differ is that third "utility" passive. Orcs get a borderline OP passive that increases their max health AND grants them healing while dealing damage. While Altmer get this garbage known as Spell Recharge. The orc passives are applicable in nearly every piece of content, and Altmer's are hardly useful in most of the game's content at all. Neither help sustain or DPS, but damn if one is incredible utility. There's no way anyone can argue these two races are equally balanced.

It's lore-breaking, it's bad, it's spell recharge.

Orc gets health and the health regen but in no way shape or form any kind of damage mitigation or even off stat recovery so honestly where is the comparison altmer is magicka magicka typically means being ranged out of harms way orc stamina typically melee right in line of damage they actually about equal each other out of you really wanna compare and an orc health regen isn’t taking into account if you have a healer healing u which then makes that passiv useless besides the bonus health. Need I continue

Rikumaru

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

It is a quite interesting coincidence that the stam regen only came after the pvp lead took over balance.

This alone makes me worried for the future of this game. I can understand balancing, but this guy seems to be destroying racial identities to get there. It really explains why they ripped stealth reduction off Bosmer and gave them a horribly niche detection increase, which is still hardly useful outside of even the most situational moment in Cyrodiil.

Bosmer are now guards and have nothing to do with stealth (lore-breaking)
Altmer are a magic race, but now they only regen stamina (lore-breaking)
Nords are warrirors that are now worthless if they choose to use anything other than a sword and shield (lore-breaking)

The CP re-balance is going to be a disaster, I'm calling it now. I'm betting large parts of the system will only benefit PvP.

The entire game shouldn't revolve around only PvE. Both should be important and worked on. It's silly that there are some players which start screaming the moment anything PvP related is given a little love.

Tyrion87

If you run out of stam in any PvE content as a mag char and need that little boost to stam regen, then you do something wrong. After the patch I haven't noticed or benefited that stam regen at all, yet I have noticed my worse mag sustain.

And also as someone above has said, that little stam gain won't save your life and makes little to no difference whatsoever.

There have been so many more interesting ideas for this passive instead of stam regen. Ideas that were useful for both PvE and PvP. Ideas that don't affect mag dps potency of the race. Ideas that give Altmer more flavour and identity. Yet Zeni chose the most boring and bland solution with the lamest dev comment on this I have ever seen.

Currently Altmers are very bland. Beside the combat-related passives, Altmers don't have a unique/flavoured passive that would reflect their mag identity (in contrast to e.g. Dunmers with their fire resistance and strong burning immunity).

Chaos2088

I only play Altmer (yeah shoot me) And not gunna lie I thought I would hate the changes.....The power!! THE POWER!!

Jeremy

NyassaV wrote: »

So there are a lot of people complaining that a magicka High Elf build will now restore stamina rather than magicka and while I understand people's responses let me explain why they are a little stupid and frankly what you currently have is rather nice. The current state of the passive is rather good for almost every form of content. It may not benefit you in a parse but frankly parsing is not everything plz stop being a target dummy hero and get out there in the world. In every form of content you will need to block and dodge and even break free sometimes. This sustain passive finally allows magicka builds to sustain their stamina reliably, a issue that's been around and debated for awhile.

Many will complain this is a PvP change and while it will have more benefit in PvP that is simply not the case. In vMA dodging, blocking, bashing, and sometimes breaking free is all required. While most the time one does not run into stam sustain issues as a magicka build in vMA this will allow you to do more blocking and dodging. (more than just having some extra max stamina)

Can't be a good caster if you can't break free, dodge, or block right? Management of your secondary resource is important and this passive gives you that. So stop complaining and take the nice stuff. The High Elves now use their magic too keep themselves in good physical condition through out a fight. Stop thinking down such a narrow path. Magic is many things not just the couple schools. The schools were created by the mages guild to teach magic easier.

I think the issue was the new passive came at the expense of our magicka regen passive - which was the reason many of us chose Altimer to begin with. If they had just given us Spell Charge (why is it called spell charge?) without stripping us of our magicka regen in the process I doubt anyone would be complaining about it.

Aeeeek

The last straw for my Altmer Overload Stamsorc - all about the old Elemental(Shock) bonus. Race changed.

srfrogg23

Just to play devil's advocate here, I never die as a magicka dps because I ran out of stamina and couldn't block or dodge. The passive is useless for dps.

Good for tanks, though...

Iskiab

I like the stamina return for pvp but will still be switching races. If it was just about stamina return I’d be okay with it, but stamina return combined with a useless 5% less damage while channeling makes other races better.

DarkPicture

If u have problem with stamina on all content except vhof LAST BOSS u doing many things wrong and propably your position is also bad, you said about vma... if u know where mobs will spawn u can burst them asap and u dont need to use break free/roll dodge, if u are not going many times there than stop creating threads about this is a good change because its not.

In pvp im playing as sorc and im using shackle and i dont have any problems with stam

Plus 620 stam every 6 sec when u use class skill will not help u a lot with sustain stamina if you have problem with position or doing useless roll dodge or sprint in needless moments.

DarkPicture

twing1_ wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I see no situation where Altmer is worth using over other races in pve this patch.

All truly min/maxed magicka dps builds prefer altmer, because they are currently sporting the highest dps parses.

Nope

They are a fake parses where u burst dummy with siroria/strategist/zaan/3BT/flame and shock enchant and on food max magicka and mag regen, so its bad argument, in real scenario breton outdps/outsustain and mostly pve content is magic dmg so even outsurviving altmer

Sanguinor2

BattleAxe wrote: »

Orc gets health and the health regen but in no way shape or form any kind of damage mitigation or even off stat recovery so honestly where is the comparison altmer is magicka magicka typically means being ranged out of harms way orc stamina typically melee right in line of damage they actually about equal each other out of you really wanna compare and an orc health regen isn’t taking into account if you have a healer healing u which then makes that passiv useless besides the bonus health. Need I continue

Actually the Orc Bonus Health is incredibly useful in pve because you dont Need to adjust your Health with a Health glyph or a few Attribute Points into Health to reach the 16k without ebon/warden passive. The heal (Health regen is something different and would make orc very strong, well stronger than it is already rather, for certain pvp builds) is still useful regardless of having a healer or not, the more healing you get from whatever source the faster you are back to 100%, especially applies to cloudrest or Hof.
Also the Orc sprint passive is one of the strongest pvp defenses in the entire game, faster, cheaper LoS, sprinting trough breaches (depending on the amount of sieges used on it), dodging sieges or simply being able to outrun opponents without gap closers and splitting people up. Cant really say the same about 5 % dmg reduction on channels.

MLGProPlayer

BattleAxe wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

I can honestly say that my mag characters have had little to no trouble managing their stamina in most PvE content because they rarely tap into it unless they have to. Even this new passive is so marginal of a return, you'll hardly notice a difference at all.

If we're going to use vMA as an argument, fine, but that is a single piece of content. No passive should be THAT hamstrung as being usable in PvP (barely) and a single piece of endgame content (again, barely).

I like to look at Orcs for comparison here, the stamina equivalent of Altmer, both being the "damage" races, as ZoS insists.

Both get a max resource stat (altmer + max magic, orc + max stamina)
Both get a max damage stat (altmer + spell damage, orc + weapon damage)

They are carbon copies up to this point. The key area where they differ is that third "utility" passive. Orcs get a borderline OP passive that increases their max health AND grants them healing while dealing damage. While Altmer get this garbage known as Spell Recharge. The orc passives are applicable in nearly every piece of content, and Altmer's are hardly useful in most of the game's content at all. Neither help sustain or DPS, but damn if one is incredible utility. There's no way anyone can argue these two races are equally balanced.

It's lore-breaking, it's bad, it's spell recharge.

Orc gets health and the health regen but in no way shape or form any kind of damage mitigation or even off stat recovery so honestly where is the comparison altmer is magicka magicka typically means being ranged out of harms way orc stamina typically melee right in line of damage they actually about equal each other out of you really wanna compare and an orc health regen isn’t taking into account if you have a healer healing u which then makes that passiv useless besides the bonus health. Need I continue

Everytime you post something, it shows how inexperienced you are with endgame content. Max health is one of the most useful resources in the game. 1k health allows Orcs to hit over 16k health while using sustain food. That's a huge boon to survivability. A healer can't save you from burst mechanics, only more health can.

MLGProPlayer

LegacyDM wrote: »

You want sustain? Go Breton. Problem solved. High elves who wNt their cake and eat it too.

Breton get both sustain and damage.

BattleAxe

1k health on an altmer would effectively give them an additional 400-500 health when you factor in damage shields that’s before the 20% bonus to health from cp but I know nothing since I’m clearly inexperienced with endgame. If races are parsing similar numbers even without altmers having mag recovery what valid argument is there to bring it back. Mind you most parses have the change that Bretons are using bi stat food to be at that level while the rest use recovery so that is a margin of error I will not delve into atm.

Sanguinor2

BattleAxe wrote: »

1k health on an altmer would effectively give them an additional 400-500 health when you factor in damage shields that’s before the 20% bonus to health from cp but I know nothing since I’m clearly inexperienced with endgame. If races are parsing similar numbers even without altmers having mag recovery what valid argument is there to bring it back. Mind you most parses have the change that Bretons are using bi stat food to be at that level while the rest use recovery so that is a margin of error I will not delve into atm.

But Altmer were parsing even with the mag recovery too so what valid argument was there to take it away? And outside of a parse the stam recovery is doing next to nothing (well its doing nothing in parses too obviously) unless you dont know what you are doing (and at that Point the stam recovery wont save you) while the mag recovery will always help. And again, Im pretty sure we already discussed this in pts threads, how is using the maximum damage potential to, you know, test damage a "margin of error"?

BattleAxe

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

1k health on an altmer would effectively give them an additional 400-500 health when you factor in damage shields that’s before the 20% bonus to health from cp but I know nothing since I’m clearly inexperienced with endgame. If races are parsing similar numbers even without altmers having mag recovery what valid argument is there to bring it back. Mind you most parses have the change that Bretons are using bi stat food to be at that level while the rest use recovery so that is a margin of error I will not delve into atm.

But Altmer were parsing even with the mag recovery too so what valid argument was there to take it away? And outside of a parse the stam recovery is doing next to nothing (well its doing nothing in parses too obviously) unless you dont know what you are doing (and at that Point the stam recovery wont save you) while the mag recovery will always help. And again, Im pretty sure we already discussed this in pts threads, how is using the maximum damage potential to, you know, test damage a "margin of error"?

Well the margin of error I’m referring to is the size of magicka pool at the end of the parse yes ideally a Breton would be using the best food available bi stat wise. The fact remains even using actual science you keep all variables the same so using a food on one while the others use a food even if the food is to try to eliminate one races bonus as much as possible opens a margin of error. Using the best bistat food is looking at it objectively inflating a Bretons dps results. The other issue with the tests is did they use the maxed racials from the start? Did they put points in as they went u want to perform and balance races perfectly a fair test let’s use the hot topic 2 races Breton and altmer
Altmer all points in for spell damage and max magicka Breton all points in for max magicka(this eliminates any sustain advantage a Breton has clearly the winner is gonna be altmer since we don’t have any sustain on either now do this same test give altmer their original spell recharge which equals out to about 95 magicka/second and Breton gets their 100 magicka recovery we bring sustain in clearly altmer is the winner again their is the slightest error of 5 mag/second tho. Now with all passives the playing field is more level with altmer still coming out on top most times.

Switch to removing altmers sustain passive all together and the gap actually closes even more between the 2 races do you see where I’m going with this altmer must give some damage to get sustain to remain ahead ik it’s not the greatest way to balance the 2 races and there isn’t too much you can give altmer that won’t put them over as hands down best mag dps. Best I could say Is give altmers 5% damage mitigation as a static buff instead of tied to channel or cast time but this to makes altmer more appealing then just spell resistance.

In an optimal score run trial altmers burn potential will make it a preferred race.

I understand the dissatisfaction with altmers passive I do when you actually break everything down piece by piece this is where it stands.

I hope this might actually shed a bit more light on things and I hope it was clear enough to understand.