About the High Elf sustain Passive

MLGProPlayer

BattleAxe wrote: »

1k health on an altmer would effectively give them an additional 400-500 health when you factor in damage shields that’s before the 20% bonus to health from cp but I know nothing since I’m clearly inexperienced with endgame. If races are parsing similar numbers even without altmers having mag recovery what valid argument is there to bring it back. Mind you most parses have the change that Bretons are using bi stat food to be at that level while the rest use recovery so that is a margin of error I will not delve into atm.

Altmer were parsing the same even before these changes. What valid reason was there to remove the passive? People forget that the old passive was just 192 magicka regen (and that's with 100% proc uptime).

And nobody is even asking for the passive to be returned anymore. We want a passive that's actually useful in PvE and PvP.

Sanguinor2

BattleAxe wrote: »

Well the margin of error I’m referring to is the size of magicka pool at the end of the parse yes ideally a Breton would be using the best food available bi stat wise. The fact remains even using actual science you keep all variables the same so using a food on one while the others use a food even if the food is to try to eliminate one races bonus as much as possible. Using the best bistat food is looking at it objectively inflating a Bretons dps results. The other issue with the tests is did they use the maxed racials from the start? Did they put points in as they went u want to perform and balance races perfectly a fair test let’s use the hot topic 2 races Breton and altmer
Altmer all points in for spell damage and max magicka Breton all points in for max magicka(this eliminates any sustain advantage a Breton has clearly the winner is gonna be altmer since we don’t have any sustain on either now do this same test give altmer their original spell recharge which equals out to about 95 magicka/second and Breton gets their 100 magicka recovery we bring sustain in clearly altmer is the winner again their is the slightest error of 5 mag/second tho. Now with all passives the playing field is more level with altmer still coming out on top most times.

Switch to removing altmers sustain all together and the gap actually closes even more between the 2 races do you see where I’m going with this altmer must give some damage to get sustain to remain ahead ik it’s not the greatest way to balance the 2 races and there isn’t too much you can give altmer that won’t put them over as hands down best mag dps. Best I could say Is give altmers 5% damage mitigation as a static buff instead of tied to channel or cast time but this to makes altmer more appealing then just spell resistance.

In an optimal score run trial altmers burn potential will make it a preferred race.

I understand the dissatisfaction with altmers passive I do when you actually break everything down piece by piece this is where it stands.

I hope this might actually shed a bit more light on things and I hope it was clear enough to understand.

First of all we are not doing actual science when we do dps parses, we are trying to find out which race will perform the best in Terms of dps while maintaining the necessary amount of Sustain, so I really dont understand why you try to discredit People for using different Food on Sustain races, along with different glyphs.
Obviously you would use all the racial passives when parsing, where is the idea coming from that you dont pick stuff that is actually useful for you?
And of Course the Sustain race is gonna parse less if you conveniently take out all of their Sustain passives, what do you want to say with that? If i dont take any passive as Altmer an Argonian will outperform them in Terms of dps. Does that mean that Argonian is suddenly a good mag dd? Hell no it doesnt.
You are Aware that Bretons also have a 7% cost reduction passive and that their magicka recovery scales with all modifiers arent you? So no, old spell recharge isnt even close to being 5 mag recovery off of Breton Sustain.
Again you are saying that it would put Altmer as Hands down best mag dps if they had retained old spell recharge. In pts 4.3.0 Altmer didnt outperform, wasnt the first by far, khajiit were higher and Bretons and Altmer were about even, some classes favouring Breton more because they have worse Sustain, and other classes being near dead on even with differences as small as 2 Digit numbers.

BattleAxe

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Well the margin of error I’m referring to is the size of magicka pool at the end of the parse yes ideally a Breton would be using the best food available bi stat wise. The fact remains even using actual science you keep all variables the same so using a food on one while the others use a food even if the food is to try to eliminate one races bonus as much as possible. Using the best bistat food is looking at it objectively inflating a Bretons dps results. The other issue with the tests is did they use the maxed racials from the start? Did they put points in as they went u want to perform and balance races perfectly a fair test let’s use the hot topic 2 races Breton and altmer
Altmer all points in for spell damage and max magicka Breton all points in for max magicka(this eliminates any sustain advantage a Breton has clearly the winner is gonna be altmer since we don’t have any sustain on either now do this same test give altmer their original spell recharge which equals out to about 95 magicka/second and Breton gets their 100 magicka recovery we bring sustain in clearly altmer is the winner again their is the slightest error of 5 mag/second tho. Now with all passives the playing field is more level with altmer still coming out on top most times.

Switch to removing altmers sustain all together and the gap actually closes even more between the 2 races do you see where I’m going with this altmer must give some damage to get sustain to remain ahead ik it’s not the greatest way to balance the 2 races and there isn’t too much you can give altmer that won’t put them over as hands down best mag dps. Best I could say Is give altmers 5% damage mitigation as a static buff instead of tied to channel or cast time but this to makes altmer more appealing then just spell resistance.

In an optimal score run trial altmers burn potential will make it a preferred race.

I understand the dissatisfaction with altmers passive I do when you actually break everything down piece by piece this is where it stands.

I hope this might actually shed a bit more light on things and I hope it was clear enough to understand.

First of all we are not doing actual science when we do dps parses, we are trying to find out which race will perform the best in Terms of dps while maintaining the necessary amount of Sustain, so I really dont understand why you try to discredit People for using different Food on Sustain races, along with different glyphs.
Obviously you would use all the racial passives when parsing, where is the idea coming from that you dont pick stuff that is actually useful for you?
And of Course the Sustain race is gonna parse less if you conveniently take out all of their Sustain passives, what do you want to say with that? If i dont take any passive as Altmer an Argonian will outperform them in Terms of dps. Does that mean that Argonian is suddenly a good mag dd? Hell no it doesnt.
You are Aware that Bretons also have a 7% cost reduction passive and that their magicka recovery scales with all modifiers arent you? So no, old spell recharge isnt even close to being 5 mag recovery off of Breton Sustain.
Again you are saying that it would put Altmer as Hands down best mag dps if they had retained old spell recharge. In pts 4.3.0 Altmer didnt outperform, wasnt the first by far, khajiit were higher and Bretons and Altmer were about even, some classes favouring Breton more because they have worse Sustain, and other classes being near dead on even with differences as small as 2 Digit numbers.

I guess you only read certain parts of my post since I did include using all passives which further closed the gap. The test I was basically making with that is no modifiers so it came down to an altmer perfect passive up time had 95 mag per second versus 100 flat mag recovery nothing scaling it. This is a simpler test far less variables and anyone can repeat. You talk to me about discrediting someone else’s test yet here you are making every attempt to discredit my proposal for a fair balanced objective test.

The problem with the altmer original spell recharge passive is it’s implications and potential on every current class.

Sor: dark conversion
Dk: draw essence and unrelenting grip
Templar:radiant aura and channeled focus
Warden: blue Betty
Nightblade: siphoning attacks

All these skills give magicka in some way then you add the additional magicka because class skill

Ik a lot of these skills aren’t used because “reasons” but 7% cost reduction and 100 base mag recovery(even scaled) still isn’t that great when you look at the entire picture of eso. Just saying if I can look at these skills and see some potential it’s a safe bet someone somewhere probably thought up a high damage near infinite sustain build prior to the change to restore stamina instead.

Sanguinor2

BattleAxe wrote: »

I guess you only read certain parts of my post since I did include using all passives which further closed the gap. The test I was basically making with that is no modifiers so it came down to an altmer perfect passive up time had 95 mag per second versus 100 flat mag recovery nothing scaling it. This is a simpler test far less variables and anyone can repeat. You talk to me about discrediting someone else’s test yet here you are making every attempt to discredit my proposal for a fair balanced objective test.

The problem with the altmer original spell recharge passive is it’s implications and potential on every current class.

Sor: dark conversion
Dk: draw essence and unrelenting grip
Templar:radiant aura and channeled focus
Warden: blue Betty
Nightblade: siphoning attacks

All these skills give magicka in some way then you add the additional magicka because class skill

Ik a lot of these skills aren’t used because “reasons” but 7% cost reduction and 100 base mag recovery(even scaled) still isn’t that great when you look at the entire picture of eso. Just saying if I can look at these skills and see some potential it’s a safe bet someone somewhere probably thought up a high damage near infinite sustain build prior to the change to restore stamina instead.

7% cost reduction and 100 mag recovery with scaling is About the highest mag Sustain you can get in this game, it is half of what cp used to give for INFINITE Sustain so yeah it is Pretty great.
As for your Problems with implications and potential on classes; why would you use dark conversion, draw essence, unrelenting grip and Radiant aura for anything at all as pve dps? Second, I dont understand the Point you were trying to make because you use class abilities anyway so you would have gotten the magicka back in your Rotation regardless of skill used. These skills dont have any Problems, giving too much magicka back with the old passive because you get it back regardless. Also if that were a Problem then those abilities should also not benifit from a cost reduction, the only free skill of These is the blue Betty so that would be the only "problematic" skill but in pve if you stop using abilities you are not doing your Job and if you use half of the ones you listed you are gimping your own dps in favor of gaining Nothing at all.
As for your test: the Tests done by People on the pts are fair balanced and objective Tests, they just have 1 difference to what you did, you are Looking at races in a vacuum, they are Looking at races in actual Gameplay, or rather as close of a Simulation you are going to get without a way of simulating Incoming mechanics.

ezio45

LegacyDM wrote: »

You want sustain? Go Breton. Problem solved. High elves who wNt their cake and eat it too.

i dont give af about sustain, the sustain we had before u21 wasnt impressive.

i want highelf to have something that makes it worth running over a darkelf besides a pathetic 150 mag

that is a *** poor trade for darkelfs better damage mit and stam

idk

NyassaV wrote: »

So there are a lot of people complaining that a magicka High Elf build will now restore stamina rather than magicka and while I understand people's responses let me explain why they are a little stupid

It seems very misplaced to call those with an opinion, especially one that differs from yours stupid as you very clearly did here.

If you feel you have to call people stupid because their opinion differs from you then the problem is not on their end. I would suggest a wiser choice of words.

BattleAxe

If you are currently unhappy with your race because of the current passives then change your race. Just know whenever they balance races again your new race may not perform as it is now. BiS now doesn’t mean BiS next update. Chase the meta if you must but I assure you all you will get is frustration every time there is a shift in the meta. My opinion all races are currently in a good spot. You don’t have to agree with me and I don’t have to change my opinion or agree with you. Races are as they are now and the foreseeable future. Have a nice day.

Olauron

Ratzkifal wrote: »

But I do have to disagree with ZOS on their explanation and consequently with you. If we are saying that Altmer can use Alteration magic to boost their stamina, then EVERY MAGICAL RACE can do the same. That is nothing exclusive to Altmer if you allow magic to work that way.

Especially when the one who wrote that line in the patch notes has no idea about schools of magic. Restore Stamina belongs to Restoration school.

daemonios

NyassaV wrote: »

So there are a lot of people complaining that a magicka High Elf build will now restore stamina rather than magicka and while I understand people's responses let me explain why they are a little stupid

If people are stupid, why are you bothering arguing this issue? Do you expect stupid people to be convinced by your arguments?

NyassaV wrote: »

and frankly what you currently have is rather nice. The current state of the passive is rather good for almost every form of content. It may not benefit you in a parse but frankly parsing is not everything plz stop being a target dummy hero and get out there in the world. In every form of content you will need to block and dodge and even break free sometimes. This sustain passive finally allows magicka builds to sustain their stamina reliably, a issue that's been around and debated for awhile.

Many will complain this is a PvP change and while it will have more benefit in PvP that is simply not the case. In vMA dodging, blocking, bashing, and sometimes breaking free is all required. While most the time one does not run into stam sustain issues as a magicka build in vMA this will allow you to do more blocking and dodging. (more than just having some extra max stamina)

Can't be a good caster if you can't break free, dodge, or block right? Management of your secondary resource is important and this passive gives you that. So stop complaining and take the nice stuff. The High Elves now use their magic too keep themselves in good physical condition through out a fight. Stop thinking down such a narrow path. Magic is many things not just the couple schools. The schools were created by the mages guild to teach magic easier.

Long and wrong. You're basically saying "everyone needs stamina, right?". Well, in my experience I've never been limited by stamina - I use purple food, which may help in this regard. What I do know is that my sustain as an Altmer sorc was bad, and now is worse.

I can understand the plan to prevent everyone going to the one go-to race for a given role. I don't think the Altmer changes were a good way to go about it. Would have been better to leave Altmer alone and buff other races somehow.

NyassaV

daemonios wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

So there are a lot of people complaining that a magicka High Elf build will now restore stamina rather than magicka and while I understand people's responses let me explain why they are a little stupid

If people are stupid, why are you bothering arguing this issue? Do you expect stupid people to be convinced by your arguments?

NyassaV wrote: »

and frankly what you currently have is rather nice. The current state of the passive is rather good for almost every form of content. It may not benefit you in a parse but frankly parsing is not everything plz stop being a target dummy hero and get out there in the world. In every form of content you will need to block and dodge and even break free sometimes. This sustain passive finally allows magicka builds to sustain their stamina reliably, a issue that's been around and debated for awhile.

Many will complain this is a PvP change and while it will have more benefit in PvP that is simply not the case. In vMA dodging, blocking, bashing, and sometimes breaking free is all required. While most the time one does not run into stam sustain issues as a magicka build in vMA this will allow you to do more blocking and dodging. (more than just having some extra max stamina)

Can't be a good caster if you can't break free, dodge, or block right? Management of your secondary resource is important and this passive gives you that. So stop complaining and take the nice stuff. The High Elves now use their magic too keep themselves in good physical condition through out a fight. Stop thinking down such a narrow path. Magic is many things not just the couple schools. The schools were created by the mages guild to teach magic easier.

Long and wrong. You're basically saying "everyone needs stamina, right?". Well, in my experience I've never been limited by stamina - I use purple food, which may help in this regard. What I do know is that my sustain as an Altmer sorc was bad, and now is worse.

I can understand the plan to prevent everyone going to the one go-to race for a given role. I don't think the Altmer changes were a good way to go about it. Would have been better to leave Altmer alone and buff other races somehow.

I'm only wrong if you're a target dummy hero ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

daemonios

NyassaV wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

So there are a lot of people complaining that a magicka High Elf build will now restore stamina rather than magicka and while I understand people's responses let me explain why they are a little stupid

If people are stupid, why are you bothering arguing this issue? Do you expect stupid people to be convinced by your arguments?

NyassaV wrote: »

and frankly what you currently have is rather nice. The current state of the passive is rather good for almost every form of content. It may not benefit you in a parse but frankly parsing is not everything plz stop being a target dummy hero and get out there in the world. In every form of content you will need to block and dodge and even break free sometimes. This sustain passive finally allows magicka builds to sustain their stamina reliably, a issue that's been around and debated for awhile.

Many will complain this is a PvP change and while it will have more benefit in PvP that is simply not the case. In vMA dodging, blocking, bashing, and sometimes breaking free is all required. While most the time one does not run into stam sustain issues as a magicka build in vMA this will allow you to do more blocking and dodging. (more than just having some extra max stamina)

Can't be a good caster if you can't break free, dodge, or block right? Management of your secondary resource is important and this passive gives you that. So stop complaining and take the nice stuff. The High Elves now use their magic too keep themselves in good physical condition through out a fight. Stop thinking down such a narrow path. Magic is many things not just the couple schools. The schools were created by the mages guild to teach magic easier.

Long and wrong. You're basically saying "everyone needs stamina, right?". Well, in my experience I've never been limited by stamina - I use purple food, which may help in this regard. What I do know is that my sustain as an Altmer sorc was bad, and now is worse.

I can understand the plan to prevent everyone going to the one go-to race for a given role. I don't think the Altmer changes were a good way to go about it. Would have been better to leave Altmer alone and buff other races somehow.

I'm only wrong if you're a target dummy hero ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't do target dummy parses, I just use Combat Metrics to see how I'm doing. But yeah sure, add another insult to the one you opened this thread with and surely everyone will be blinded to the fact that you failed to respond to my objections. In fact, I'm now convinced you're not interested in discussing anything, you're simply preaching. Goodbye.

Silver_Strider

The majority of charges are pretty crappy IMO.

There wasn't really anything that changed for the better, outside of Dunmer Stamina and Khajiit Magic builds. Altmer healers got screwed out of their sustain entirely for a crap utility passive. Bosmer lost their stealth and Disease Resistance. Argonian got shafted entirely. Orc was overbuffed. Nords are still Tanks only.

What good really came out of this patch in terms of racial adjustments?

Dracan_Fontom

Silver_Strider wrote: »

The majority of charges are pretty crappy IMO.

There wasn't really anything that changed for the better, outside of Dunmer Stamina and Khajiit Magic builds. Altmer healers got screwed out of their sustain entirely for a crap utility passive. Bosmer lost their stealth and Disease Resistance. Argonian got shafted entirely. Orc was overbuffed. Nords are still Tanks only.

What good really came out of this patch in terms of racial adjustments?

Imperials aren't trash anymore :P

Seraphayel

Silver_Strider wrote: »

The majority of charges are pretty crappy IMO.

There wasn't really anything that changed for the better, outside of Dunmer Stamina and Khajiit Magic builds. Altmer healers got screwed out of their sustain entirely for a crap utility passive. Bosmer lost their stealth and Disease Resistance. Argonian got shafted entirely. Orc was overbuffed. Nords are still Tanks only.

What good really came out of this patch in terms of racial adjustments?

This post shows that you have basically no clue at all and / or are just salty because your race hasn't been changed in the way you hoped or wasn't overbuffed / isn't clearly superior anymore. Most of the changes were good, first and foremost the switch to numbers instead of percentages. That alone was a success.

Nothing changed for the better?

Altmer healers haven't been screwed. They got 258 Spell Damage improving their heals. Before that healers had just the sustain, yes, but elemental damage didn't affect healing output at all.

Bosmer lost their stealth but gained other passives that made them competitive when it comes to damage. Losing stealth is the only major misstep ZOS did while changing the racials. Nevertheless Bosmer are a lot better than before on the Stamina front.

Argonians haven't been shafted. They were nerfed due to their overperformance in PvP. They're one of the utility races so their main purpose isn't pure competitiveness for DPS. They haven't been a damage race before and they haven't been one after, that's not why players picked Argonians to begin with.

Orcs being "overbuffed" is basically the epitome of "changed for the better".

Nords are still a utility race like Argonians. Basically everything I said for Argonians fits for Nords, too.

Dunmer and Khajiit have become some truly versatile races which just created two new options for creating a Magicka or Stamina based character.

Bretons are better than ever because of their incredible sustain.

Imperials are much more versatile now due to their new passives. Magicka Imperial is something imaginable now because of cost reduction and the new Red Diamond. This also applies to Redguards which got a flat cost reduction on all weapon skills, too. And they're still a very good pick for Stamina builds.

All in all basically every race is better after the changes than before with Argonians being the exception because of their previous (PvP) overperformance being brought down. If you're clamoring sustain loss on a damage race then you haven't understood the purpose of the changes (damage vs. sustain vs. utility races).

Rikumaru

Seraphayel wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

The majority of charges are pretty crappy IMO.

There wasn't really anything that changed for the better, outside of Dunmer Stamina and Khajiit Magic builds. Altmer healers got screwed out of their sustain entirely for a crap utility passive. Bosmer lost their stealth and Disease Resistance. Argonian got shafted entirely. Orc was overbuffed. Nords are still Tanks only.

What good really came out of this patch in terms of racial adjustments?

This post shows that you have basically no clue at all and / or are just salty because your race hasn't been changed in the way you hoped or wasn't overbuffed / isn't clearly superior anymore. Most of the changes were good, first and foremost the switch to numbers instead of percentages. That alone was a success.

Nothing changed for the better?

Altmer healers haven't been screwed. They got 258 Spell Damage improving their heals. Before that healers had just the sustain, yes, but elemental damage didn't affect healing output at all.

Bosmer lost their stealth but gained other passives that made them competitive when it comes to damage. Losing stealth is the only major misstep ZOS did while changing the racials. Nevertheless Bosmer are a lot better than before on the Stamina front.

Argonians haven't been shafted. They were nerfed due to their overperformance in PvP. They're one of the utility races so their main purpose isn't pure competitiveness for DPS. They haven't been a damage race before and they haven't been one after, that's not why players picked Argonians to begin with.

Orcs being "overbuffed" is basically the epitome of "changed for the better".

Nords are still a utility race like Argonians. Basically everything I said for Argonians fits for Nords, too.

Dunmer and Khajiit have become some truly versatile races which just created two new options for creating a Magicka or Stamina based character.

Bretons are better than ever because of their incredible sustain.

Imperials are much more versatile now due to their new passives. Magicka Imperial is something imaginable now because of cost reduction and the new Red Diamond. This also applies to Redguards which got a flat cost reduction on all weapon skills, too. And they're still a very good pick for Stamina builds.

All in all basically every race is better after the changes than before with Argonians being the exception because of their previous (PvP) overperformance being brought down. If you're clamoring sustain loss on a damage race then you haven't understood the purpose of the changes (damage vs. sustain vs. utility races).

Thank you. Couldn't have put it better on how I feel about the race changes.

twing1_

Seraphayel wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

The majority of charges are pretty crappy IMO.

There wasn't really anything that changed for the better, outside of Dunmer Stamina and Khajiit Magic builds. Altmer healers got screwed out of their sustain entirely for a crap utility passive. Bosmer lost their stealth and Disease Resistance. Argonian got shafted entirely. Orc was overbuffed. Nords are still Tanks only.

What good really came out of this patch in terms of racial adjustments?

This post shows that you have basically no clue at all and / or are just salty because your race hasn't been changed in the way you hoped or wasn't overbuffed / isn't clearly superior anymore. Most of the changes were good, first and foremost the switch to numbers instead of percentages. That alone was a success.

Nothing changed for the better?

Altmer healers haven't been screwed. They got 258 Spell Damage improving their heals. Before that healers had just the sustain, yes, but elemental damage didn't affect healing output at all.

Bosmer lost their stealth but gained other passives that made them competitive when it comes to damage. Losing stealth is the only major misstep ZOS did while changing the racials. Nevertheless Bosmer are a lot better than before on the Stamina front.

Argonians haven't been shafted. They were nerfed due to their overperformance in PvP. They're one of the utility races so their main purpose isn't pure competitiveness for DPS. They haven't been a damage race before and they haven't been one after, that's not why players picked Argonians to begin with.

Orcs being "overbuffed" is basically the epitome of "changed for the better".

Nords are still a utility race like Argonians. Basically everything I said for Argonians fits for Nords, too.

Dunmer and Khajiit have become some truly versatile races which just created two new options for creating a Magicka or Stamina based character.

Bretons are better than ever because of their incredible sustain.

Imperials are much more versatile now due to their new passives. Magicka Imperial is something imaginable now because of cost reduction and the new Red Diamond. This also applies to Redguards which got a flat cost reduction on all weapon skills, too. And they're still a very good pick for Stamina builds.

All in all basically every race is better after the changes than before with Argonians being the exception because of their previous (PvP) overperformance being brought down. If you're clamoring sustain loss on a damage race then you haven't understood the purpose of the changes (damage vs. sustain vs. utility races).

I agree, the race changes are a step toward balance. They're actually really good.

But they are not perfect. I fear that after a few years, these passives too will be reconsidered. It's just a bandaid fix.

If they really wanted a definitive solution, they would have reduced the variance between the different races by establishing simple, easily defined guidelines when designing them. The ~6.5 item set bonuses is far too variable and leaves too much open to interpretation. Furthermore, certain set bonuses are typically considered stronger than others (ie max stats vs resistances), so even if races have the same ~6.5 item set bonuses of racial passives they can still be imbalanced.

If it were up to me, I'd have designed the races under these guidelines:

1. Each race will be alotted 3000 maximum resources distributed between magicka, stamina, and health, with health receiving a 10% increase consistent with all other sources of health in the game.
2. Each race will be granted a small defensive bonus (ie flame resist, 5% damage reduction while casting, etc). Most races already have this.
3. Each race will be granted a sustain tool to at least one of their resources. The effectiveness of this sustain tool will be in an inverse relationship with the offensive power of the race (the more offensive power, the less main stat sustain). Most races also already have this (nord ultigen, altmer spell recharge, redguard stamina restore, etc).
4. Each race will be granted exactly two 2-4 pc item set bonuses either copy pasted directly from pre-existing item sets in the game or reverse engineered from existing mundus stones or 5pc item set bonuses (as these share a consistent relationship with 2-4 pc item set bonuses).
5. Each race will more or less reflect traditional TES lore.


Here is my full rebalance based off of these guidelines:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459197/racial-rebalance-v4-3-x#latest

Arato

NyassaV wrote: »

So there are a lot of people complaining that a magicka High Elf build will now restore stamina rather than magicka and while I understand people's responses let me explain why they are a little stupid and frankly what you currently have is rather nice. The current state of the passive is rather good for almost every form of content. It may not benefit you in a parse but frankly parsing is not everything plz stop being a target dummy hero and get out there in the world. In every form of content you will need to block and dodge and even break free sometimes. This sustain passive finally allows magicka builds to sustain their stamina reliably, a issue that's been around and debated for awhile.

Many will complain this is a PvP change and while it will have more benefit in PvP that is simply not the case. In vMA dodging, blocking, bashing, and sometimes breaking free is all required. While most the time one does not run into stam sustain issues as a magicka build in vMA this will allow you to do more blocking and dodging. (more than just having some extra max stamina)

Can't be a good caster if you can't break free, dodge, or block right? Management of your secondary resource is important and this passive gives you that. So stop complaining and take the nice stuff. The High Elves now use their magic too keep themselves in good physical condition through out a fight. Stop thinking down such a narrow path. Magic is many things not just the couple schools. The schools were created by the mages guild to teach magic easier.

Let's put it this way. When you don't focus on stamina, your stamina regen is going to be pretty terrible, your stamina pool pretty terrible and frankly this will be one of the only sources of stam regen you have, and the amount it restores is not enough to be really meaningful. We're talking 1 more dodge roll PER MINUTE than without this passive. It's not a helpful passive and it just screams that the devs have favoritism for Dunmer, Orc, and Khajiit, and hate Altmer and Bosmer.

Seraphayel

twing1_ wrote: »

I agree, the race changes are a step toward balance. They're actually really good.

But they are not perfect. I fear that after a few years, these passives too will be reconsidered. It's just a bandaid fix.

I don't know if they wanted them to be perfect. That's nothing ZOS ever aspired for. Sure the racial balance could be better and I doubt they worked several months or even weeks on them.

I still think they achieved what they wanted to achieve, narrowing the differences between similar races (e.g. bringing Stamina races and Magicka races closer together DPS wise). They're all so close together that I think they overall succeeded. Stamina, Magicka and "Utility" are fairly balanced between the races and I think ZOS did a good job. It's way better after the changes than before.

Nevertheless... there's always room for improvement and I think we will see tweaks in the future. The foundation is very solid though to build up on it.

Gnortranermara

This same failed argument was repeated ad nauseum during PTS, and it's still just as invalid now as it was then. There are very few circumstances when any mag toon needs stam regen and when they do there are ample mechanisms already in-game to get it which don't gimp everyone else's build in the process with a niche, practically useless passive. Stam regen will virtually never make any impact whatsoever in PvE. It's a tiny, ***-poor trickle of stam that'll never actually give you that extra roll in the moment you need it.

This gorked Spell Recharge (and other racial blunders) is objectively the stupidest thing that has happened to this game.

Seraphayel

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

This gorked Spell Recharge (and other racial blunders) is objectively the stupidest thing that has happened to this game.

This gorked statement is objectively the stupidest thing I've read in this forum.

You see how absurd absolute statements are?

If you consider this change the stupidest thing that has happened to this game you play this game like... I don't know, one month maybe.

Kadoin

It's a passive that's completely useless for me in PvE and it's also useless on my hybrid templar in PvP. The effect simply is not noticeable with it on or off for me. That's true for my hybrid templar and tank one as well (both Altmer). Meanwhile, my Dunmer characters...

...

Gnortranermara

Nobody asked you Seraphayel. But of course you're still obsessed with following people around vomiting your pointless, off-topic distractions that have nothing to do with improving the quality of the game. Stay trolly, troll.

Seraphayel

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Nobody asked you Seraphayel. But of course you're still obsessed with following people around vomiting your pointless, off-topic distractions that have nothing to do with improving the quality of the game. Stay trolly, troll.

An opposing opinion is neither off topic nor trolling. The question is, who's obsessed with such negligible things like racial passives when your race is still on top. Creating a problem where no problem exists is obsession, not me insisting on changes that barely affect your playstyle or alter your gaming experience.

Axmouth

I just don't know if you seriously think this amount of stamina would make a difference in PvE. In my experience for Trials and vMA, I'd either need hefty amount more, or I'd not need any more than I already have.

I think Dark Elf stamina is better for that. Arguably they've got a better setup overall(125 magicka is pretty much inconsequential). ~2k stamina right off the bat, you have it when you'll need it. And it's usually been in bursts so far, when lots is needed. And you won't be casting as many abilities when blocking/breaking free/rolling.

Lord-Otto

Chalk is right to call it the stupidest thing in ESO history, Seraph. It's not the most detrimental gameplay thing, but from a design standpoint? And ZOS even went so far trying to lore it away, but did a very poor and plain out wrong job there, too. So Chalk's opinion is valid.

Silver_Strider

Seraphayel wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

The majority of charges are pretty crappy IMO.

There wasn't really anything that changed for the better, outside of Dunmer Stamina and Khajiit Magic builds. Altmer healers got screwed out of their sustain entirely for a crap utility passive. Bosmer lost their stealth and Disease Resistance. Argonian got shafted entirely. Orc was overbuffed. Nords are still Tanks only.

What good really came out of this patch in terms of racial adjustments?

This post shows that you have basically no clue at all and / or are just salty because your race hasn't been changed in the way you hoped or wasn't overbuffed / isn't clearly superior anymore. Most of the changes were good, first and foremost the switch to numbers instead of percentages. That alone was a success.

Nothing changed for the better?

Altmer healers haven't been screwed. They got 258 Spell Damage improving their heals. Before that healers had just the sustain, yes, but elemental damage didn't affect healing output at all.

Bosmer lost their stealth but gained other passives that made them competitive when it comes to damage. Losing stealth is the only major misstep ZOS did while changing the racials. Nevertheless Bosmer are a lot better than before on the Stamina front.

Argonians haven't been shafted. They were nerfed due to their overperformance in PvP. They're one of the utility races so their main purpose isn't pure competitiveness for DPS. They haven't been a damage race before and they haven't been one after, that's not why players picked Argonians to begin with.

Orcs being "overbuffed" is basically the epitome of "changed for the better".

Nords are still a utility race like Argonians. Basically everything I said for Argonians fits for Nords, too.

Dunmer and Khajiit have become some truly versatile races which just created two new options for creating a Magicka or Stamina based character.

Bretons are better than ever because of their incredible sustain.

Imperials are much more versatile now due to their new passives. Magicka Imperial is something imaginable now because of cost reduction and the new Red Diamond. This also applies to Redguards which got a flat cost reduction on all weapon skills, too. And they're still a very good pick for Stamina builds.

All in all basically every race is better after the changes than before with Argonians being the exception because of their previous (PvP) overperformance being brought down. If you're clamoring sustain loss on a damage race then you haven't understood the purpose of the changes (damage vs. sustain vs. utility races).

You clearly don't understand balance if you believe any of that nonsense. Orcs being overbuffed is a very clear balance issue but you brush it off as a "change for the better" when all it did was make Orc the best Stamina race, just like Redguard before it. Healers don't need stronger heals because overhealing is so stupid in this game that there are 2 sets that function solely on the idea that you overheal, one of which was meta since its inception until Summerset released Olorime to replace it. Healers need sustain, of which Altmer has been completely screwed out of and thus negatively affecting they capacity in that role; ****ing Imperials make better healers than Altmer at this point because not only do they have sustain but they also offer more utility in the form of cheaper Warhorns, so to say Altmer healers aren't getting the short end of the stick is absolutely BS. Bosmer gained NOTHING to make it more competitive. It just had its preexisting passives altered into flat values, which occurred for all races. Bosmer is on more level ground to Redguard and that's about it in terms of competitiveness, which came at the cost of losing a lore friendly passive, which is crap.

Nords and Argonians being shoehorned isn't a good thing either as it limits them arbitrarily while other races don't not have the same stipulations in terms of being Tanks or Healers. The only reason Nords are even considered BiS for Tanks is that Ultimate Regen. Without that, they're still trash tier in practically every way, much like Argonian is now. The idiots that preached "Argonian is OP" in PvP have absolutely no idea wtf they were talking about because they never considered all the negatives associated with Argonians. You couldn't be a DPS in PVP, you were an Argonian that used Fury to kill and that was literally all you were but Fury could be utilized by EVERYONE. Argonian didn't have that as a unique thing only to them other than self sustain and that was nerfed in every way imaginable. If you don't believe that's getting shafted, you're just proving my point that you don't understand balance and should literally have no say in the matter.

You want to argue "Utility Races"? How about we look at Imperial then. Due to their Cost reduction passive effecting Ultimates, they provide more utility than the majority of races. Due to their large stat pools, they gain the most benefit out of the CP changes. It is this combination that has literally turned Imperial into this juggernaut of untapped potential for anyone with actual critical thinking skills. I already argued that Imperials can be better Healers than Altmer and this is mostly true due to the fact that they have sustain and cheaper Warhorns but added to that are the benefits of a larger health pool and stamina to augment their survivability, especially when coupled with the fact Red Diamond also restores all 3 resources, providing even more utility for Imperial in comparison to the Dunmer vs Altmer debates in which Dunmer provides more utility than Altmer while having an insignificant DPS difference between the 2 races. Now, since Healers typically don't follow the logic of DPS and can adjust their large armor slots for Infused with Tri-stat enchants to ensure their survivability is better, does it not stand to reason that an Imperial, with 2k extra Health+Stamina wouldn't need those Tri-Stat glyphs? Would it not stand to reason that Imperial can go full on Max Magic to help bridge this gap between itself and Altmer? Would it not stand to reason that Imperial, with its greater sustain and group utility, would be a better Healer than an Altmer? Absolutely, but let's take this a step further.

You say that Bosmer gained a competitive element to it with these changes. Let's compare this with Imperial in a simple set up change, which is a nice little tidbit from PTS testing but still holds true regarding Imperial vs Bosmer in relation to using different food.

Here is the accounting behind the lavafoot test:
Lavafoot: +4575 Stamina, +457 Stamina Regen
Imperial passive: +2000 Stamina, +2000 Health, -3% cost reduction + 67 Stamina return (~133 Stam Regen)
Swap 2 Armor Glyphs: -1736 Stamina, +1908 Health

Imperial w/ lavafoot buff total:
4839 Stamina, 3908 Health, 457 Stamina Regen, (133 Regen and 3% cost reduction, neither buffed by multipliers)

It's a lot like a Bosmer on Artaeum Takeaway Broth

Takeaway Broth: +3458 Stamina, +3724 Health, +319 Stamina Regen
Bosmer Passive: +2000 Stamina, +258 Stamina Regen

Bosmer w/ takeaway broth buff total:
5458 Stamina, 3724 Health, 577 Stamina Regen
They're very close.

Now, this is for Bosmer. However, even with this, it looks as though Imperial is coming up short and that's because people are under the assumption that you need those 2 Health glyphs to get into a good enough position for Trial runs but let's consider that Imperial's 2k health is actually slightly higher than the actual tooltip value due to CP buffs which now also effects sets like Ebon and Imperial can actually overtake Bosmer by only using 1 health glyph instead of 2 like in testing.

Lavafoot: +4575 Stamina, +457 Stamina Regen
Imperial passive: +2000 Stamina, +2000 Health, -3% cost reduction + 67 Stamina return (~133 Stam Regen)
Swap 1 Armor Glyphs: -868 Stamina, + 954 Health

Takeaway Broth: +3458 Stamina, +3724 Health, +319 Stamina Regen
Bosmer Passive: +2000 Stamina, +258 Stamina Regen

Imperial w/Lavafoot Buff Total:
5707 Stamina, 2954 Health, 457 Stamina Regen (133 Regen and 3% cost reduction)
Bosmer w/Arteum buff Total
5458 Stamina, 3724 Health, 577 Stamina Regen.

And just like that, Imperial is now ahead of Bosmer in terms of DPS by the simple fact that it has 250 more max stamina and comparable sustain numbers for slightly less health. Let's throw in 3% cheaper (and stronger) Dawnbreakers and that gap just slowly starts to overtake poor Bosmer now doesn't it but you know, at least Bosmer can dodge, right? You can actually take this 1 step further and drop sustain food entirely, using something like Hearthy Garlic Corn Chowder or any green Stamina food for that matter and Imperial overtakes Khajiit DPS as well, being just shy of Dunmer/Orc in terms of Stamina DPS overall. Seems a tad bit much if Imperial is capable of overshadowing 3 of the 6 Stamina races while also being a more than viable Healer race, overshadowing Argonian and Altmer entirely, and being 2nd best Tank race only due to their utility alone.

The entire argument about Sustain vs Damage vs Utility is crap. Breton has sustain that can equal, or in most cases, overtake Altmer. Imperial's utility leaves it equally capable for the same exact reason. These racial changes are nothing short of abysmal in my eyes.

Rikumaru

Seraphayel wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Nobody asked you Seraphayel. But of course you're still obsessed with following people around vomiting your pointless, off-topic distractions that have nothing to do with improving the quality of the game. Stay trolly, troll.

An opposing opinion is neither off topic nor trolling. The question is, who's obsessed with such negligible things like racial passives when your race is still on top. Creating a problem where no problem exists is obsession, not me insisting on changes that barely affect your playstyle or alter your gaming experience.

There's no winning with these people. Seems most of the competent forum posters when it came to this kind of stuff left quite awhile ago. You can provide good arguments as to why such changes are good and all you will get back is insults and idiocy.

Lord-Otto

Rikumaru wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Nobody asked you Seraphayel. But of course you're still obsessed with following people around vomiting your pointless, off-topic distractions that have nothing to do with improving the quality of the game. Stay trolly, troll.

An opposing opinion is neither off topic nor trolling. The question is, who's obsessed with such negligible things like racial passives when your race is still on top. Creating a problem where no problem exists is obsession, not me insisting on changes that barely affect your playstyle or alter your gaming experience.

There's no winning with these people. Seems most of the competent forum posters when it came to this kind of stuff left quite awhile ago. You can provide good arguments as to why such changes are good and all you will get back is insults and idiocy.

Like you just did?

Seraphayel

Rikumaru wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Nobody asked you Seraphayel. But of course you're still obsessed with following people around vomiting your pointless, off-topic distractions that have nothing to do with improving the quality of the game. Stay trolly, troll.

An opposing opinion is neither off topic nor trolling. The question is, who's obsessed with such negligible things like racial passives when your race is still on top. Creating a problem where no problem exists is obsession, not me insisting on changes that barely affect your playstyle or alter your gaming experience.

There's no winning with these people. Seems most of the competent forum posters when it came to this kind of stuff left quite awhile ago. You can provide good arguments as to why such changes are good and all you will get back is insults and idiocy.

It's just become so absurd. I mean many of them predicted a huge outrage in the forums after the changes are live... guess what, nothing, absolutely nothing happened.

It's the same handful of people that complains about the same two or three racials. It's hilarious how obsessed they are with it (and I am not talking about Bosmer players criticizing the loss of the Stealth passive) while the majority already moved on or is embracing the changes. Even I am surprised how content players seem to be with it and how few threads are there in the forums about it after U21 went live.

Hotdog_23

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It's still completely useless in PvE.

I've never run into stamina issues in PvE. And even if I do (because I screw up mechanically), 215 stamina regen (that's with 100% proc uptime) won't save me. It might be slightly useful for a new player, but once you learn the mechanics in dungeons/trials, stamina management becomes an afterthought.

This is still 100% a PvP passive.

I don't know. Thinking about Using high elf on a magical Templar tank for something different. The extra stam would be great for that.