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OILS NOT SHIELDABLE AND DOING 18K DMG PER TICK

  • Steelshiv
    Steelshiv
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    Okay idea: What if siege damage stays the same on keep/outpost/resources/bridges/milegates but is nerfed when not in those areas?
  • Krec
    Krec
    Soul Shriven
    Currently siege equipment damage is too op. If peeps want realism then make siege gear crew weapons and immovable or very cumbersome. Also increase the costs for all that siege gear, including oil. If you wanted to make siege gear hit harder then maybe reduce the buffs from siege shields. Those shield pop up everytime
  • Wrathmane
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    This makes sense IMO...... I mean your dumping flaming oil on someone should be doing a staggering amount of damage....... it should almost have a fear effect too..... like the NB ability forcing you to run out of the AOE...... I don't know I haven' been in cyro since the patch drop.... will be in there tonight, then I'll have a better idea.
    Sha'ria Wrathmane - Belora Wrathmane - Leora Wrathmane
    Former Head of Recruitment for Vokundein
  • Ackwalan
    Ackwalan
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    Hey guys, just to clear things up - when it was said that this is something we're discussing, it wasn't to keep siege's currently-broken state. Just that we're talking about potentially increasing the damage of siege from how it's been. Again, nothing set it stone, we're just talking like you all are. :)

    To siege or not to siege, that is the question. Seems this breaks down into 2 groups. One group seems to like the cavalry charge of 2 groups crashing into each other, while the other groups likes the chest play where 2 groups out maneuver each other. Hopefully there is a middle ground where siege is a force to reckon with yet not be like hunting baby seals with an AK47.
  • Ralamil
    Ralamil
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    Hey guys, just to clear things up - when it was said that this is something we're discussing, it wasn't to keep siege's currently-broken state. Just that we're talking about potentially increasing the damage of siege from how it's been. Again, nothing set it stone, we're just talking like you all are. :)

    @ZOS_GinaBruno Thanks for clearing that up!

    I maintain my points that ZOS really should try to encourage other play styles that are less, as someone else in this or another thread described it, point-and-click-heroism, but I'm happy to hear you just meant an increase, not this increase.
    Karn Wild-Blood - PC NA AD Nord Warden
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    FakeZavos wrote: »
    Claiming siege will kill small group play is laughable. Small groups are least affected by siege. You can easily move to avoid siege damage and attack walls not doors. Big groups are far more affected, especially organized 15+ groups trying to snowball over keeps against unorganized randos.

    It will however encourage stacking on crown even more in groups. However if the crown makes a mistake your group will wipe. Versus now where the only chance an organized group has to wipe is vs vastly superior numbers/players.

    The other option is to spread out and risk letting onesies or twosies die because they were unsuccessful in avoiding siege.

    Yeah and if you attack a wall you get 25 fire ballista's pointed at ur head. GL avoiding those and seriusly, spread out and mayb loose 1 or 2? If you are a 4 man. How are you gonna recover from that? Do you ever play in small groups mate? Or you actually have no idea what youre on about

    Groups of four do not need to spread out, that part was pointed at groups of 15 or more. If your group of four cannot avoid siege you seriously need to L2P.
    Edited by Toc de Malsvi on February 27, 2019 11:40PM
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • Ralamil
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    Groups of four do not need to spread out, that part was pointed at groups of 15 or more. If your group of four cannot avoid siege you seriously need to L2P.

    XBox must be dead empty (or filled with people who have no idea what they're doing) if you and 4 friends can stand together and not get hit with any siege. Or, more likely, you're talking out your ass and don't actually do things like, I don't know, take keeps.

    Like, seriously, what do you actually do? Stay nearby, run 1 siege each, and just immediately hop off after every shot, somehow miraculously timing it such that enemies only land their siege attacks when you're backing off? How long does it take you to actually take down a keep door or wall?
    Karn Wild-Blood - PC NA AD Nord Warden
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    Ralamil wrote: »
    Groups of four do not need to spread out, that part was pointed at groups of 15 or more. If your group of four cannot avoid siege you seriously need to L2P.

    XBox must be dead empty (or filled with people who have no idea what they're doing) if you and 4 friends can stand together and not get hit with any siege. Or, more likely, you're talking out your ass and don't actually do things like, I don't know, take keeps.

    Like, seriously, what do you actually do? Stay nearby, run 1 siege each, and just immediately hop off after every shot, somehow miraculously timing it such that enemies only land their siege attacks when you're backing off? How long does it take you to actually take down a keep door or wall?


    Balling up at the door isn't usually the best option in a group of four. In fact I really have no issue whatsoever with two rando's being able to hold off a group of four if the rando's have a freaking CASTLE with guards. The fact that on live this is an impossibility due to how weak siege is is the joke. You do know there is more than one side to a keep right, and you can siege with Trebs from much further back? You don't have to stack on the door with the rest of the crowd. Wait you don't immediately hop off siege after each shot? NVM clearly L2P issue here.



    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    Ralamil wrote: »
    Groups of four do not need to spread out, that part was pointed at groups of 15 or more. If your group of four cannot avoid siege you seriously need to L2P.

    XBox must be dead empty (or filled with people who have no idea what they're doing) if you and 4 friends can stand together and not get hit with any siege. Or, more likely, you're talking out your ass and don't actually do things like, I don't know, take keeps.

    Like, seriously, what do you actually do? Stay nearby, run 1 siege each, and just immediately hop off after every shot, somehow miraculously timing it such that enemies only land their siege attacks when you're backing off? How long does it take you to actually take down a keep door or wall?

    If you are trying to small group next to large zergs you should not be standing in or near breaches. If you find your small group is not sufficiently mobile to avoid siege I suggest you learn to play small scale better. If you are playing in a small group near a large fight, it is rarely beneficial for you to set up siege in the first place. If you cannot setup 3 siege and move between them solo then you need to L2P.

    Whats not that interesting or hard to understand is that each wall point has only so many spots to set up siege. One person rolling between 3 siege is significantly harder to hit with counter siege without coordination. Siege has a long flight time, but not a long cast time, so you can quite literally wait for counter siege to hit before stepping in and launching your own without risk of being hit.

    Two players can setup siege at distinctly different spots and run 6 engines total, while their pocket healers sit back out of range casting any necessary extra heals. This is of course assuming you are actually trying to take a keep with 4 players, something not very realistic during high activity.

    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • TheBonesXXX
    TheBonesXXX
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    FakeZavos wrote: »
    Recremen wrote: »
    I can step aside the realism angle and talk simple game physics.

    This game provides players with a plethora of visual ques, siege being placed, siege being aimed, siege firing, impact even has a ground visual that increases in size the closer it gets to a player.

    Players can skip all the way till the last visual, because that big ole circle on the ground tells to how far one needs to move.

    It's the simplest function. Pick a direction outside the radius. But this is bad?

    Rather, than the game allowing players to hit other players with 2-3 incomplete animations in a shortened window in which other players have less time to react. Which doesn't have a significant increased difficulty, any competent player can line burst complete with weaves.

    One has a plethora of visual indicators, one does not. However the one without visual indicators is okay.

    Simply put, players just want to dictate how other players play and people don't play it their way they have a fit.



    The one "without visual indicators" (read : actually you're just bad at recognizing the indicators/participating in the mind games) does not one-hit, it hits a much smaller area, and it requires building ultimate. You're also nitpicking about how long it takes to set up siege and overestimating the length of time between firing the siege and impact. Most siege it placed from a position of absolute safety within a keep and fired at a very short range, and/or leaves a DoT on the ground that acts as a semipermanent discouragement from moving into any location. So again, you're not giving an honest analysis for how fair siege is. You are ignoring the fact that siege primarily happens around a keep, and that accomplishing any map objective forces you to move into an area which by all rights should be littered with siege, if the defenders are even halfway competent.

    This isn't about players dictating how others play, it's about you wanting a turn at easy AP for minimal effort.

    Wrong, I'm giving an analysis of an experienced MMO player, Beta Tester, and has the education to know how human perception actually works.

    There are visual ques for siege. Animation clipping is the result of broken game physics which results certain visual ques not to appear.

    One is complete in it's animation and was intended that's sieging.

    You know what was not intended in the games physics? Animation canceling because the game is built for binocular vision; that means you have a pair of eyes and an overlapping field of view.

    I'm not attacking the ability to purposely hide animation even when it was never intended, it's literally an unintended function of the game because it removes visual indicators needed to react. No game designer builds games without visual indicators.

    Each skill has it's own animation, a visual motion that indicates that the character is using a skill, it's not supposed to have one animation and a player gets hit with three skills.

    A player who animation canceling is tricking another person's perception of what's going in because the physics are broken. No one sees it, in fights people are giving an anticipratory reaction. You or anyone did not see all of those necessary movements.

    Now, back to basic game physics, dying from fall damage requires falling. The way to mitigate falling is, do not stand next to the edge of things.

    Everyone laughs when someone roll dodges off the third floor of the inners and dies.

    The way not to die in Lake Rumare is not to swim in Lake Rumare, because the games programmed to kill player characters.

    Do not fall in lava in the game, because the game is programmed to kill players.

    Same principle applies, it's on the player not to get hit by a missile with a fix trajectory it has all necessary and complete visual indicators.

    If people die to, fall damage, Slaughter fish, Lava, or siege, it's on them to react because the game gives them more than necessary perceptual ques, visual indicators.

    You know what's not the proper amount of perceptual ques per the amount of skills used? Animation canceling.

    Literally explained how the game functions but continue on with a knee jerk emotional response.






    I can see where you are coming from. But falldamage and lava for example are clear self made misstakes, you if it happends midfight, you have that on yourself. Siege on the other hand, as you said is easy dodgeable. So imagine this, common, example. You are alone trying to get some fights somehwere. Not to flip a keep, just fighting because you enjoy it. You are fighting 2 people on your own, fights seems to be going good, then someone starts placing 2 siege and keeps firing it all around you, you get snared and stunned from the 2 people attacking you so the is no way to dodge the siege anymore.

    To make my point clear, you compare 2 own fault scenarios to something that isnt (read, doesnt have to be) your own fault per definition.

    And please dont start with the "1 guys houdnt be able to kill 3 others, or anything simular) because it should. A highly skillfull player should always be able to fight and kill outnumbered. This is still a game with some form of skillcap. Same eith small groups. 5 man should be able to kill 15 with the right skill, builds and organisation.

    Edit: And about the animationcancelling part. Even tough animation cancelling can help, especislly with lightattackweaving. It can give you a more static pov. But it doesnt sctually lets you cast skills faster. The best you can pull is lightattack+skill+bash in 1 second. Cant do anything more then 1 skill in 1 second.

    I primarily a solo and small scale player, Im actually on the folks side who don't want it dead.

    I support one person murdering fifteen people without siege. I just don't support inconsistent arguments when the games engine is a certain way.

    I also know that a field still can be ran properly and that a lot of these guys just weren't around when it happened. It takes a tactical acumen that a lot of these guys were around for.

    Is it primarily siege versus siege, all it takes is a few well-built snipe builds in order to distrupt the siege line. Then as the snake builds are coordinating with the ballistas, you sweep with a smaller group from the sides in a pincer.

    I guess people have forgotten what actual tactics looks like instead of having just being able to faceroll all the time.

    We haven't seen a real structured group in sometime. Just assigned a button spam and numbers.

    People must have forgotten what breaching was like when you could layer wall of elements, and still get one shot by oil.

    But I respect everybody's play style, and I do not expect everybody to play the things I like to play.

    So I don't make suggestions to the game that pigeonhole everybody into a particular play style that's not cool.

    If people want to snipe and gank that's fine, there are counters to stealth. I've sniped and ganked, it is its own aspect of the game.

    People want better perceptual cues for that place now so they can react better, but then people are going to want better perceptual cues for all the skills which means the game is going to have to perform every movement for every button pressed.

    I'm very much aware the animation canceling doesn't mean the skills hit at the same time; it just tricks people's perceptual system in their head.

    I think being field artillery and a mobile sapper unit is it play style that should be respected like any other play style.

    Warning:Incoming sarcasm and sardonicism.

    PvP just doesn't have one playstyle.
  • TheBonesXXX
    TheBonesXXX
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    Ralamil wrote: »
    Groups of four do not need to spread out, that part was pointed at groups of 15 or more. If your group of four cannot avoid siege you seriously need to L2P.

    XBox must be dead empty (or filled with people who have no idea what they're doing) if you and 4 friends can stand together and not get hit with any siege. Or, more likely, you're talking out your ass and don't actually do things like, I don't know, take keeps.

    Like, seriously, what do you actually do? Stay nearby, run 1 siege each, and just immediately hop off after every shot, somehow miraculously timing it such that enemies only land their siege attacks when you're backing off? How long does it take you to actually take down a keep door or wall?

    Xbox probably does not have the same population as PC.

    It's a suspicion, however it's impossible for us to know how populated it is.
    Edited by TheBonesXXX on February 28, 2019 1:42AM
    Warning:Incoming sarcasm and sardonicism.

    PvP just doesn't have one playstyle.
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    Make projectile siege weapons reflectable. I want to send that coldfire back the way it came with my new mag dk.
  • TheBonesXXX
    TheBonesXXX
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    Make projectile siege weapons reflectable. I want to send that coldfire back the way it came with my new mag dk.

    Sheo should give you the Wabbajack so you can turn it into a flying unicorn mount.

    Warning:Incoming sarcasm and sardonicism.

    PvP just doesn't have one playstyle.
  • technohic
    technohic
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    Make projectile siege weapons reflectable. I want to send that coldfire back the way it came with my new mag dk.

    lol That would be awesome. As is; I was trying to figure out how to run with low health and hit wings when snipers dont see it. I wonder if reflected ones could be health desynced as well.
    Technohic - DC Templar
    Technohicz - DC Nightblade
    Technohix - DC Sorc
    TechDKnohic - DC DK
  • TheBonesXXX
    TheBonesXXX
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    technohic wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    Make projectile siege weapons reflectable. I want to send that coldfire back the way it came with my new mag dk.

    lol That would be awesome. As is; I was trying to figure out how to run with low health and hit wings when snipers dont see it. I wonder if reflected ones could be health desynced as well.

    Use alchemy to poison yourself.
    Warning:Incoming sarcasm and sardonicism.

    PvP just doesn't have one playstyle.
  • Recremen
    Recremen
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    Hey guys, just to clear things up - when it was said that this is something we're discussing, it wasn't to keep siege's currently-broken state. Just that we're talking about potentially increasing the damage of siege from how it's been. Again, nothing set it stone, we're just talking like you all are. :)

    Okay, thanks for the clarification. I would like to offer that siege was already at a good place, if not overperforming in some cases (like meatbag catapult, and likely oil catapult as well). People who had been complaining that siege "wasn't affecting" players are entirely mistaken. In fact, oils, catapults, and ballista were already forcing people to heal, purge, and siege to survive. Nobody is just standing around in siege, they are taking active measures to survive it. For people complaining that it's not strong enough, there is no middle ground, because anything other than an outright one-shot they're going to view as "people just standing around in and ignoring". The reality is, however, that siege has always been a critical part of keep defense, and oils and catapults over the door/front flag/etc. provide a palpable, measurable advantage to defenders. That's as it should be, since taking a keep should be harder than defending it, but there's really no need to tune up the damage when it's already performing splendidly.
    Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
    Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    I’d like to add my voice to those who say it’s a good thing, I’ve said this in a thread or two already but I after playing with it for an extended time, I beleive the battles are faster paced, more dynamic and much more tactical than ever before. At first I was like meh, but it certainly does make big groups think twice before zerging into a keep.
  • Stevo_Moore
    Stevo_Moore
    Soul Shriven
    labambao wrote: »
    LF3M for engeneer squad, 2 CH ballistas men, 1 for meatbag. I will use scattershot

    If you're PC/NA, hmu: @Vypersnake
  • Bam_Bam
    Bam_Bam
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    Max points into Thaumaturge, wear Vicious Death and something that boosts flame damage and win all the things.
    Joined January 2014
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  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Ralamil wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    That's easy

    1. Siege in immobile

    1. You can hop off of it and move around if absolute need be.
    2. You can actually reposition it if need be, and most likely will have the opportunity to do so, either by being one of many laying down siege against an opposing group, safely up on keep walls (or other terrain, I suppose), or both, at least in some fights.
    Xsorus wrote: »
    2. You cannot use any other ability while operating siege

    1. Anyone worth their salt can keep a volley of three ballistae going continuously.
    2. Let's be honest, the use-case for these things isn't going to be 1 player vs. 60. It's going to be multiple players, grouped or otherwise, vs. another group of players. You don't need to be able to use another skill while you're all safely at range hitting for 18k per shot.

    Meanwhile, pumping out all of this damage over a wide area with the reload time as your only cooldown, you could be safely out of range or elevated in a position players cannot get to you (ever since ZOS deemed things like leaping onto keep walls emergent gameplay bannable offenses), and in the most defensive setup one could imagine, which otherwise would be incapable of dealing damage if you had to rely on your own skill and skills.

    So if we're going for terse responses: Cute post, but ultimately your reply responds effectively to literally none of my points, particularly those over trying to make Cyrodiil game play healthy, engaging, and rewarding.

    1. If you hop off siege you're no longer using Siege, Also it takes a bit to reposition siege, saying it doesn't is hilarious.
    2. Also you don't need to be able to use another skill? Tell that to all the people i gank while they use siege.
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