About the High Elf sustain Passive

NyassaV · February 2019

So there are a lot of people complaining that a magicka High Elf build will now restore stamina rather than magicka and while I understand people's responses let me explain why they are a little stupid and frankly what you currently have is rather nice. The current state of the passive is rather good for almost every form of content. It may not benefit you in a parse but frankly parsing is not everything plz stop being a target dummy hero and get out there in the world. In every form of content you will need to block and dodge and even break free sometimes. This sustain passive finally allows magicka builds to sustain their stamina reliably, a issue that's been around and debated for awhile.

Many will complain this is a PvP change and while it will have more benefit in PvP that is simply not the case. In vMA dodging, blocking, bashing, and sometimes breaking free is all required. While most the time one does not run into stam sustain issues as a magicka build in vMA this will allow you to do more blocking and dodging. (more than just having some extra max stamina)

Can't be a good caster if you can't break free, dodge, or block right? Management of your secondary resource is important and this passive gives you that. So stop complaining and take the nice stuff. The High Elves now use their magic too keep themselves in good physical condition through out a fight. Stop thinking down such a narrow path. Magic is many things not just the couple schools. The schools were created by the mages guild to teach magic easier.

LiquidPony · February 2019

I rather like Altmer and Dunmer in Wrathstone.

My Altmer magsorc feels much better in BGs. Increased burst via +258 spell damage, and I was able to drop Amberplasm for Bright Throat which has been a net gain all around. Dunmer are in the same boat. A lot of PvP magicka characters run Shacklebreaker/Amberplasm to increase stam pools or stam regen, and they can choose something else now.

And also, as it pertains to PvE, off-resource sustain isn't super important but it's not useless either. I would guess that anyone who has ever progressed vMA, vAS, vCR, etc. has run into a situation where they died because they didn't have the stam to block/dodge/bash/break free.

twing1_ · February 2019

My concern with this is isn't the ability itself, it's that it ended up on the wrong race.

Dunmer are regarded as the agile warrior-caster race, why shouldn't they get stamina sustain to reflect this? Lore would dictate they should be the ones that can roll dodge and break free more. Conversely, on the stamina side of things, they would be superior casters through more magicka utility for things like crowd control and self heals, doubling down on their lore as warrior-casters if they received this bonus.

Yes, they have more max stamina to begin with but now altmer have have stamina sustain to compete. This grants both races minimal access to more roll dodges/break frees, when really dunmer should be pulling ahead in this department by a large margin.

Edit: dunmer should be granted spell recharge and altmer should get a bonus to elemental chance or heavy attacks restore more resources or some other small magicka related bonus to more properly reflect lore.

NyassaV · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

My concern with this is isn't the ability itself, it's that it ended up on the wrong race.

Dunmer are regarded as the agile warrior-caster race, why shouldn't they get stamina sustain to reflect this? Lore would dictate they should be the ones that can roll dodge and break free more. Conversely, on the stamina side of things, they would be superior casters through more magicka utility for things like crowd control and self heals, doubling down on their lore as warrior-casters if they received this bonus.

Yes, they have more max stamina to begin with but now altmer have have stamina sustain to compete. This grants both races minimal access to more roll dodges/break frees, when really dunmer should be pulling ahead in this department by a large margin.

That's why they get the max stam and weapon damage. Max stam is also a type of "stam sustain" though not quite as effective.

kathandira · February 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

snip

Agreed. Secondary resource management on a Magicka class is pretty important. In fights, such as last boss of HoF, where breaking free is important, I slot Stamina potions rather than Magicka Potions. Having enough stamina for a clutch break free or roll dodge can really make the difference between living or dying.

twing1_ · February 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

My concern with this is isn't the ability itself, it's that it ended up on the wrong race.

Dunmer are regarded as the agile warrior-caster race, why shouldn't they get stamina sustain to reflect this? Lore would dictate they should be the ones that can roll dodge and break free more. Conversely, on the stamina side of things, they would be superior casters through more magicka utility for things like crowd control and self heals, doubling down on their lore as warrior-casters if they received this bonus.

Yes, they have more max stamina to begin with but now altmer have have stamina sustain to compete. This grants both races minimal access to more roll dodges/break frees, when really dunmer should be pulling ahead in this department by a large margin.

That's why they get the max stam and weapon damage. Max stam is also a type of "stam sustain" though not quite as effective.

I actually address this exact thing in the very comment that you quoted. I have a feeling you stopped reading it about halfway through.

NyassaV · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

My concern with this is isn't the ability itself, it's that it ended up on the wrong race.

Dunmer are regarded as the agile warrior-caster race, why shouldn't they get stamina sustain to reflect this? Lore would dictate they should be the ones that can roll dodge and break free more. Conversely, on the stamina side of things, they would be superior casters through more magicka utility for things like crowd control and self heals, doubling down on their lore as warrior-casters if they received this bonus.

Yes, they have more max stamina to begin with but now altmer have have stamina sustain to compete. This grants both races minimal access to more roll dodges/break frees, when really dunmer should be pulling ahead in this department by a large margin.

That's why they get the max stam and weapon damage. Max stam is also a type of "stam sustain" though not quite as effective.

I actually address this very thing in the comment of mine that you quoted. I have a feeling you stopped reading it about halfway through.

I did yeah. I'm saying they both have stamina stamina sustain. It may not be the right amount but they have it as opposed to none.

twing1_ · February 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

My concern with this is isn't the ability itself, it's that it ended up on the wrong race.

Dunmer are regarded as the agile warrior-caster race, why shouldn't they get stamina sustain to reflect this? Lore would dictate they should be the ones that can roll dodge and break free more. Conversely, on the stamina side of things, they would be superior casters through more magicka utility for things like crowd control and self heals, doubling down on their lore as warrior-casters if they received this bonus.

Yes, they have more max stamina to begin with but now altmer have have stamina sustain to compete. This grants both races minimal access to more roll dodges/break frees, when really dunmer should be pulling ahead in this department by a large margin.

That's why they get the max stam and weapon damage. Max stam is also a type of "stam sustain" though not quite as effective.

I actually address this very thing in the comment of mine that you quoted. I have a feeling you stopped reading it about halfway through.

I did yeah. I'm saying they both have stamina stamina sustain. It may not be the right amount but they have it as opposed to none.

I completely agree with you here, and I believe this is cutting into the dunmer identity as the "hybrid" and "warrior-caster" race.

ruikkarikun · February 2019

Altmer is fine. But we need more buffs for sorc!

ezio45 · February 2019

Ok, I don't care about the passive. The problem is highelf and darkelf are the same but darkelf does it better. Which is why this change is stupid. One of them has to be on top. There to similar now. Bother have max mag and spell damage but darkelf gets fire resistance which is far better than the highelfs stupid 5% while casting or channeling. Seriously that part of the passive SUCKS, I don't care that it helps with heavy attacks it still sucks. And darkelf gets 1.8(+ with champion points) where highelf gets 600 every 6 seconds IF they immediately cast a class ability on cool down. That doesn't start being more effective until at least 18-24s fights by sheer basic math. Any fight a highelf is in that is below that amount of time (which is pretty much only boss fights) the passive is useless and you are better off being a darkelf.

HIGHELF GOT SCREWED

zaria · February 2019

Think Altmer should get something like +shield strength.
Can not buff damage much or they become OP but you can buff general survival.
No stamina regen is not useless on an magic build but weak.

NyassaV · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

Think Altmer should get something like +shield strength.
Can not buff damage much or they become OP but you can buff general survival.
No stamina regen is not useless on an magic build but weak.

It's not even weak. There are some situations where it isn't as helpful but it is far from weak.

Ratzkifal · February 2019

Okay. I can't say I agree with you, OP.

You may be right, that balance wise the passive is actually pretty great at carving a niche for Altmer vs Breton that give Altmer a distinct benefit over Bretons.

But I do have to disagree with ZOS on their explanation and consequently with you. If we are saying that Altmer can use Alteration magic to boost their stamina, then EVERY MAGICAL RACE can do the same. That is nothing exclusive to Altmer if you allow magic to work that way.

I also have to ask, where does it stop? If Alteration is so powerful that it can not only make you sturdier (bark skin etc) but also give you more endurance, can it also boost your strength? If all of these things can be achieved with Alteration magic, then what sense does it make to even have the magicka and stamina distinction anymore. Magic can boost both anyway.

Altmer are not a stamina race period. They never have been and they never should be. They should not get a boost to it period. And if you don't want to give up on it anyway, then at least be bothered to explain it in a physiological way instead of saying "a wizard did it" as if that explains everything.

I have put this in several threads already, but the only way this passive can be salvaged in a semi-lore-friendly way is if we make it only work to restore stamina (no magicka on stam builds) and explain it by saying "Altmer are so attuned to magic that casting a spell is like taking a break to them/their bodies".

twing1_ · February 2019

ezio45 wrote: »

Ok, I don't care about the passive. The problem is highelf and darkelf are the same but darkelf does it better. Which is why this change is stupid. One of them has to be on top. There to similar now. Bother have max mag and spell damage but darkelf gets fire resistance which is far better than the highelfs stupid 5% while casting or channeling. Seriously that part of the passive SUCKS, I don't care that it helps with heavy attacks it still sucks. And darkelf gets 1.8(+ with champion points) where highelf gets 600 every 6 seconds IF they immediately cast a class ability on cool down. That doesn't start being more effective until at least 18-24s fights by sheer basic math. Any fight a highelf is in that is below that amount of time (which is pretty much only boss fights) the passive is useless and you are better off being a darkelf.

HIGHELF GOT SCREWED

I think you are severely under-estimating the passive, but I agree with you completely that these two races are too similar where they currently stand.

To remedy this, I propose dunmer be granted spell recharge (even toned down a bit, if balance dictates) and in compensation, altmer be granted heavy attacks restore 20% more resources. This would synergize quite nicely with their damage reduction while casting (as heavy attacks are categorized as cast time/channeled abilities). It would also help out altmer in healer and stamina (if those exist) roles, while not affecting their dps parses.

zaria · February 2019

NyassaV wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Think Altmer should get something like +shield strength.
Can not buff damage much or they become OP but you can buff general survival.
No stamina regen is not useless on an magic build but weak.

It's not even weak. There are some situations where it isn't as helpful but it is far from weak.

Obviously, PvP and stuff like direfrost who was miserable as an low cp healer.

Has anybody tested if it return lowest resource change as in 4.2.5 text, as if below 9K magic it return magic rater than stamina. On an magic build obviously.

BRogueNZ · February 2019

Breton is the new Altmer unless you particularly want the SD. imo

twing1_ · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Think Altmer should get something like +shield strength.
Can not buff damage much or they become OP but you can buff general survival.
No stamina regen is not useless on an magic build but weak.

It's not even weak. There are some situations where it isn't as helpful but it is far from weak.

Obviously, PvP and stuff like direfrost who was miserable as an low cp healer.

Has anybody tested if it return lowest resource change as in 4.2.5 text, as if below 9K magic it return magic rater than stamina. On an magic build obviously.

It restores whichever resource's maximum is lower.

So if u have 30k max mag and 10k max stam, it will restore stamina even if your magicka is depleted to 0 but you have full stam.

LiquidPony · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Think Altmer should get something like +shield strength.
Can not buff damage much or they become OP but you can buff general survival.
No stamina regen is not useless on an magic build but weak.

It's not even weak. There are some situations where it isn't as helpful but it is far from weak.

Obviously, PvP and stuff like direfrost who was miserable as an low cp healer.

Has anybody tested if it return lowest resource change as in 4.2.5 text, as if below 9K magic it return magic rater than stamina. On an magic build obviously.

I've tested it. It's lowest *max* resource return. If you have 40k max magicka and 10k max stam, and you drain down to 5k magicka and 9k stam, using a class ability will still restore stamina.

LordTareq · February 2019

I think its a weak passive.It amounts to what, 200 or so resource recovery but only in combat and only when you are actually mashing class abilities every x seconds. My stamblade is seriously looking at transforming into a dunmer. Since he is a vampire there isn't even any visual difference anyway. But I hate being semi-forced to do so if I want to get the best out of my character.

LiquidPony · February 2019

LordTareq wrote: »

I think its a weak passive.It amounts to what, 200 or so resource recovery but only in combat and only when you are actually mashing class abilities every x seconds. My stamblade is seriously looking at transforming into a dunmer. Since he is a vampire there isn't even any visual difference anyway. But I hate being semi-forced to do so if I want to get the best out of my character.

It is not only in combat.

klowdy1 · February 2019

I was under the impression that the increase was based on a percentage. So even having 40k magicka, as long as your stam is full, you'll be restoring magicka. I'm probably wrong, I haven't played my altmer since the change.

Razorback174 · February 2019

I can honestly say that my mag characters have had little to no trouble managing their stamina in most PvE content because they rarely tap into it unless they have to. Even this new passive is so marginal of a return, you'll hardly notice a difference at all.

If we're going to use vMA as an argument, fine, but that is a single piece of content. No passive should be THAT hamstrung as being usable in PvP (barely) and a single piece of endgame content (again, barely).

I like to look at Orcs for comparison here, the stamina equivalent of Altmer, both being the "damage" races, as ZoS insists.

Both get a max resource stat (altmer + max magic, orc + max stamina)
Both get a max damage stat (altmer + spell damage, orc + weapon damage)

They are carbon copies up to this point. The key area where they differ is that third "utility" passive. Orcs get a borderline OP passive that increases their max health AND grants them healing while dealing damage. While Altmer get this garbage known as Spell Recharge. The orc passives are applicable in nearly every piece of content, and Altmer's are hardly useful in most of the game's content at all. Neither help sustain or DPS, but damn if one is incredible utility. There's no way anyone can argue these two races are equally balanced.

It's lore-breaking, it's bad, it's spell recharge.

LordTareq · February 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

I think its a weak passive.It amounts to what, 200 or so resource recovery but only in combat and only when you are actually mashing class abilities every x seconds. My stamblade is seriously looking at transforming into a dunmer. Since he is a vampire there isn't even any visual difference anyway. But I hate being semi-forced to do so if I want to get the best out of my character.

It is not only in combat.

Fair enough, though I doubt anyone is using class skills every 6 seconds outside of combat.

WrathOfInnos · February 2019

I disagree. The Altmer stamina return is completely useless in PVE. I’ll give 2 worst case examples:
- vHoF hard mode AG trench strat, requires blocking the stomp every few seconds, as well as blocking the occasional Calefactor steam and Conduit strikes. This is the worst situation I’m aware of for PVE mag DPS stamina pools, and literally every race can sustain it no problem.
- vCR HM, some mechanics require dodging, such as getting out of the center cone while you’re already slowed by hoarfrost. Then you might end up targeted by a creeper razorthorn, which means dodge roll or die quickly. The ~2.5k Stamina Dunmer passive helps with back-to-back dodge rolls, overcoming the cost increase. The Altmer -600 Stamina return would require you to use a class skill between dodges, and still wouldn’t have nearly the effect. 600 is not likely to make a difference whether you can dodge again, 2.5k will.

I see no situation where Altmer is worth using over other races in pve this patch.

twing1_ · February 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I see no situation where Altmer is worth using over other races in pve this patch.

All truly min/maxed magicka dps builds prefer altmer, because they are currently sporting the highest dps parses.

Red_Feather · February 2019

klowdy1 wrote: »

I was under the impression that the increase was based on a percentage. So even having 40k magicka, as long as your stam is full, you'll be restoring magicka. I'm probably wrong, I haven't played my altmer since the change.

Oh if that is true it is completely different to what I assumed. That wouldn't be bad at all.

twing1_ · February 2019

Red_Feather wrote: »

klowdy1 wrote: »

I was under the impression that the increase was based on a percentage. So even having 40k magicka, as long as your stam is full, you'll be restoring magicka. I'm probably wrong, I haven't played my altmer since the change.

Oh if that is true it is completely different to what I assumed. That wouldn't be bad at all.

This is not the case. It is based off of the lowest maximum resource, not the most depleted resource.

Razorback174 · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I see no situation where Altmer is worth using over other races in pve this patch.

All truly min/maxed magicka dps builds prefer altmer, because they are currently sporting the highest dps parses.

I might be wrong, but I really don't believe that. Dunmer have nearly identical combat passives (+max magic, +spell damage). The two should be performing about the same. And I've seen cases where Bretons are sporting similar, if not better, DPS parses. Most DPS parses I've seen are about equal.

Shouldn't a damage race be clearly ahead in all cases? Because if they tie with Breton, there's no point in foregoing the added sustain when the extra damage becomes negligible. This seems to be the case in any type of extended engagement.

twing1_ · February 2019

Razorback174 wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I see no situation where Altmer is worth using over other races in pve this patch.

All truly min/maxed magicka dps builds prefer altmer, because they are currently sporting the highest dps parses.

I might be wrong, but I really don't believe that. Dunmer have nearly identical combat passives (+max magic, +spell damage). The two should be performing about the same. And I've seen cases where Bretons are sporting similar, if not better, DPS parses. Most DPS parses I've seen are about equal.

Shouldn't a damage race be clearly ahead in all cases? Because if they tie with Breton, there's no point in foregoing the added sustain when the extra damage becomes negligible. This seems to be the case in any type of extended engagement.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459447/dps-comparison-of-races-on-pts-v4-3-3-pretty-graphs-analyses-and-farming-for-insightful-votes/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

The parses between altmer and dunmer are very nearly identical with altmer having the slight edge of ~180 dps in the study where human error was taken out of the equation.

And Altmer's stamina sustain accomplishes the same thing as Dunmer's max stamina: more roll dodges/break frees. The two are practically interchangeable.

In fact, the biggest difference between the two are their defensive bonuses, where Altmer receives 5% damage reduction while casting and Dunmer receive fire resistance.

These races right now are sharing the same racial identity. They could use some differentiation.

Edit: a little more on topic with your response: their damages are nearly identical, but truly min/maxed builds will take advantage (if you can call it an advantage) of that 180 extra dps, by definition of min/maxed. Bretons are a little bit lower than both dunmer and altmer.

WrathOfInnos · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I see no situation where Altmer is worth using over other races in pve this patch.

All truly min/maxed magicka dps builds prefer altmer, because they are currently sporting the highest dps parses.

Maybe on a dummy parse, but I don’t think this holds true in trials.

Let’s take a vAS+2 score push as an example. Say a group of 8 Dunmer is clearing in 6 minutes. The 125 Max Magicka difference from Dunmer to Altmer translates to about 0.2% DPS. This means if all 8 players race changed to Altmer the time would go from 360 seconds to 359.3 seconds. Less than 1 second difference. I’m not even sure if the score is affected by changes less than 1 second, it might just round to the nearest second.

And if we’re being realistic about it, Dunmer will be able to survive more without shielding, so if Altmer casts even 1 more shield (for something like fire, or running out of stamina while blocking a cone) it is suddenly lower DPS than Dunmer.

ezio45 · February 2019

twing1_ wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Ok, I don't care about the passive. The problem is highelf and darkelf are the same but darkelf does it better. Which is why this change is stupid. One of them has to be on top. There to similar now. Bother have max mag and spell damage but darkelf gets fire resistance which is far better than the highelfs stupid 5% while casting or channeling. Seriously that part of the passive SUCKS, I don't care that it helps with heavy attacks it still sucks. And darkelf gets 1.8(+ with champion points) where highelf gets 600 every 6 seconds IF they immediately cast a class ability on cool down. That doesn't start being more effective until at least 18-24s fights by sheer basic math. Any fight a highelf is in that is below that amount of time (which is pretty much only boss fights) the passive is useless and you are better off being a darkelf.

HIGHELF GOT SCREWED

I think you are severely under-estimating the passive, but I agree with you completely that these two races are too similar where they currently stand.

To remedy this, I propose dunmer be granted spell recharge (even toned down a bit, if balance dictates) and in compensation, altmer be granted heavy attacks restore 20% more resources. This would synergize quite nicely with their damage reduction while casting (as heavy attacks are categorized as cast time/channeled abilities). It would also help out altmer in healer and stamina (if those exist) roles, while not affecting their dps parses.

idk i kinda like darkelf as it is now, seems solid. highelf just needs a better utility passive to differentiate it from darkelf.