So about that communication, ZOS...

Elsonso · February 2019

Moloch1514 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

.

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Is @ZOS_RobGarrett still with ZOS?

Since he was last reading the forum yesterday, I would go with "Yes, he is still with ZOS".

Good to know. I didn't see his post in the Dev tracker yesterday.

He was online reading. He did not post anything.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/profile/ZOS_RobGarrett

MLGProPlayer · February 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

This is what happens if a game starts to make too much money. They won't improve because they don't need to.

It also helps when there is no competition in the market.

Vanthras79 · February 2019

They are pretty consistent with communication via Twitter. Of course it is far easier to ban people there.

Suddwrath · February 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It also helps when there is no competition in the market.

ESO needs some decent competition. ZOS has grown too comfortable in the current MMO market. Just look at what happened with Fortnite when Apex Legends came out. Good competition shakes things up and encourages improvements.

Iluvrien · February 2019

Acrolas wrote: »

<snip for brevity>

So you just have to take a leap of faith and realize there's a certain nuance to what might be perceived as indifference.

In my previous career I was an analyst for a Market Research firm in London that dealt with multi-million pound contracts in pretty much every industry.

One thing that was shown to be true time and time again was that customer perception was financial reality. If customers even thought they were being treated unfairly or with indifference then they would either bad-mouth the company or take their money elsewhere or both.

That wasn't even if the customers were actually being treated unfairly, just on the basis of the perception of it.

People aren't asking for proprietary information, and ZOS is not only failing to deliver on something that they suggested would happen, but also failing to communicate about the process.

Management of customer expectations is the bare minimum of what should be going on.

valeriiya · February 2019

Vanthras79 wrote: »

They are pretty consistent with communication via Twitter. Of course it is far easier to ban people there.

@Vanthras79 no meaningful communication on any platform. They post the same there as here.

logarifmik · February 2019

I stopped to expect any actual response on bugs, when realized that devs wasn't able to replace in-game Cyrillic font for several years. The matter was raised on the forum several times, including by me, н о в о з и н ы н е т а м. What is the point of the forum, if you, dear devs, feeding concerned players with silence?

Czekoludek · February 2019

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker this becomes beyond stupid. We waited couple months for any update on communication issue, when we will get any response at all?

Diminish · February 2019

Acrolas wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

How can you apologize for a lack of communication, but then don't improve said communication? It literally hurts my brain to try and understand how any business could make that sort of apology without following it up with any meaningful change.

Try this on.

You're a software development company.
You publicly communicate what you're doing internally for fixes and other issues, how you're doing it, and when.
Fans don't really care too much about that information. It's mostly forgotten when the issue passes.
But do you know who loves information like that? Other developers. You've just freely given away information that any other company can use to keep their costs down.

Where's the strategic value in that?

Time and time again, both ZOS and Bethesda have repeated that if you have an issue, put in a support ticket.
More feedback on exactly what individuals are experiencing helps them gain a larger perspective for what is causing specific flaws.
Just because you don't get a personalized response back doesn't mean your feedback isn't helping fix issues. It's just a really good business move to be as explicitly vague as possible, to protect your own work and your own investments from others who would willingly profit from them. Because you really don't know whether a support ticket was put in by a player, by a bot, or by an employee at a rival company.

You can't assume anything anymore. Research via impersonation is an actual thing.

So the endgame full disclosure some people want just is not going to happen. ZOS will engage at points of interest - events, community, and content. That's all they should do.
They're not going to publicly talk through improvements and fixes.
They're not going to divulge anything that can used by a competitor.
They're going to go extremely gently on any topic that is not officially confirmed or is currently unresolved.

I know players are going to expect more, but players have a different scope of work because they've chosen to ignore or vilify the business mindset. Exacerbated by the Internet troll mentality, it's become a whole lot more "Do what makes me happy today or I quit" and a whole lot less "Do what's best for the longevity of the product even if it's a little inconveniencing in the short term".

I can write all this because I'm not affiliated with ZOS professionally in any way so I have the luxury of distance.
I do know I wouldn't have written it at all if I were. But I'd be thinking it. Sometimes with communication you have to know what would have been said to know what can't be said or has been edited to be said somewhat differently.

I haven't taken any official comment here as an indication that they're suddenly going to open up the floodgates. I see it as a very human response to the frustration that there are many instances where they want to do more but for reasons explained above and more, they can't be as informative or descriptive or unfiltered as it would take to widely and effectively communicate empathy through a digital medium.

So you just have to take a leap of faith and realize there's a certain nuance to what might be perceived as indifference.

This only makes any sense what so ever when in relation to new upcoming content. How is acknowledging current bugs going to aid in the development of some other software from another developer? We didn't ask for them to post their source code to github, and upload all their in-game assets for us all to peruse at our leisure. We asked them to acknowledge certain issues with the game so that everyone knows they are working on fixes. This is known as transparency, and is the right thing to do.

eso_lags · February 2019

*crickets

valeriiya · February 2019

They're never going to address performance or communication as long as they have their top fanboys coming in for stuff like this because more people follow the streamers than the forums. They go where the money is.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460004/upcoming-elsweyr-preview-event-zos/p1

Suddwrath · February 2019

valeriiya wrote: »

They're never going to address performance or communication as long as they have their top fanboys coming in for stuff like this because more people follow the streamers than the forums. They go where the money is.

I would be impressed if ZOS invited some of the more outspoken/critical players in the forums to have a discussion.

xMovingTarget · February 2019

SaltySudd wrote: »

valeriiya wrote: »

They're never going to address performance or communication as long as they have their top fanboys coming in for stuff like this because more people follow the streamers than the forums. They go where the money is.

I would be impressed if ZOS invited some of the more outspoken/critical players in the forums to have a discussion.

You know that aint happening

Suddwrath · February 2019

xMovingTarget wrote: »

You know that aint happening

I can still dream!

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Kilnerdyne · February 2019

They are communicating guys.

The silence is a warning about buying Zenimax products in the future, can't you hear it?
I started hearing it loud and clear around November 2018 when 12 months of threads went unanswered.

SgtSilock · February 2019

Why do we keep playing? The only way they will learn is if we stop.

valeriiya · February 2019

SgtSilock wrote: »

Why do we keep playing? The only way they will learn is if we stop.

They don't care if we play or not, it's whether we are paying I still play but I won't pay for + or buy anything from the Crown Store.

@Kilnerdyne you're absolutely right, the silence says everything.

eso_lags · February 2019

valeriiya wrote: »

They're never going to address performance or communication as long as they have their top fanboys coming in for stuff like this because more people follow the streamers than the forums. They go where the money is.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460004/upcoming-elsweyr-preview-event-zos/p1

Idk if id go that far but i definitely think they have created a bit of an echo chamber when it comes to class reps, ambassadors, and stuff like this. They dont have many pvp players involved and while i cant speak to what goes on behind closed doors, I dont see many of those people criticizing them about performance, even worse cyrodil performance, and communication. But I would expect thats simply because they dont have to deal with those issues.

SaltySudd wrote: »

valeriiya wrote: »

They're never going to address performance or communication as long as they have their top fanboys coming in for stuff like this because more people follow the streamers than the forums. They go where the money is.

I would be impressed if ZOS invited some of the more outspoken/critical players in the forums to have a discussion.

I would be too but I sincerely dont think that will ever happen. Zos, and many game devs, dont take kindly to dissenting opinions. You dont see zos doing things with @FENGRUSH much and im pretty sure hes one of, if not the biggest, eso streamers. And hes gone pretty soft with criticizing zos like he used to but at least he is willing to call it like it is.

Performance is a joke. Communication is a joke. And if i were in the position of some of these people I wouldnt harass the devs about it on a daily basis, but I would certainly let them know frequently that it is a massive disaster, because thats the truth. And if it was something that didnt impact me, but I could see it was impacting a large part of the community, for years now, I would do the same. Whether that was questing, crafting, or whatever. But that doesn't seem to be the case for many of those people.

Elsonso · February 2019

SgtSilock wrote: »

Why do we keep playing? The only way they will learn is if we stop.

I would assume people keep playing as long as they like the game. If they don't, I assume that they eventually stop. After that, what do they care whether ZOS learns a lesson or not? Quite the opposite, for anyone who has departed, ZOS not learning serves to reinforce the decision to leave.

The only people who really care whether ZOS learns are people who want to stay around and play, and stopping is antithetical to that goal.

I keep playing because I like the game.

That does not mean that I feel that ZOS shouldn't be addressing issues with their game, and communications policies. I've been talking about how they need to communicate better for years. I've been chasing bots for years. I've been talking about performance for years. Many things I don't understand. Someday, I may reach the point where I fully understand ZOS. My fear is that, in that instant of total clarity, ZOS will vanish and be replaced by an even more inscrutable company.

Oakenaxe · February 2019

Very sad to see all of this neglect. I was following a thread yesterday on the same subject but it looks like they deleted it.

Morgul667 · February 2019

If you want examples of “what not to do” communication : ZO$ is the best provider

Ignore customers and make them feel like they are treated like *** , do the worst quality control in history then make a post once in a while when the pressure is getting higher , get peoples hope higher and yet again show to everybody you simply dont care about your customers

kpittsniperb14_ESO · February 2019

In my opinion the problem lies in the business model, games appealing to a more casual base and more of their revenue stream coming from microtransactions....although I wouldn't necessarily call most crown store prices micro. Traditional subscription based MMO's tie revenue directly to customer satisfaction and obligates the developer to provide an engaging rewarding experience as each customer makes a monthly decision to continue subscribing. Smart decision really for ZOS to move to a more micro transaction model and appeal to a larger casual base by pumping more broken content on top of the broken content at a rapid pace.

There's a lot more that can be said about this however most is off topic. The bottom line is that they aren't going to improve communication with us because they don't have to. Most people in this thread aren't their actual customers.

gepe87 · February 2019

Hey look! Dragons are comming! Feed the Fallout failure!

Seriously, we are too stupid to think they will adress our concerns. I already gave up. Just playing when server is bad but still ok to play.

Zathras · February 2019

Not to spoil this little parade you seem to be throwing yourselves.. but:

The only ones reading this thread are the really small handful of people that have perpetuated its existence.

That isn't entirely meant to sound snarky, rather just as a frank observation. At the start of the thread, there was discussion, and even brief engagement from Gina. It was constructive. Now the thread keeps getting bumped by vitriol, barely any of which has anything to do with the original topic. Mud slinging.

I get it. I was over in EQ in the days when Sony had a policy of silence on the forums. It was infuriating. Finally, after years of having a bad rep for it, Smed and pals put on a show of increased community attention. While a lot of it was forced, they at least tried to re-frame the image they had initially created. They acknowledged the very real perception the community had of them, and consciously made a change.

I was also in GW2 in the days of Chris and Brian, when they had a campaign of managerial arrogance. A lot of people migrated out of there just because of the contempt they showed their own community. The gaming community being what it is, they found other jobs after a couple of years, and the environment started to change for the better.

What was I saying.. Oh yes. They are obviously aware of the issue. Gina popped in at the start of the thread and said so. However, do you really think any of them read this thread now, or that someone gets a memo ding! on their device when it receives a bump?

I think if you want to have communication improve, then organize yourself in a more constructive way. All this is now, is a rambling, non-cohesive rant.

Just my 2c.

ZarkingFrued · February 2019

Shraar wrote: »

What makes you tink tu derserve real communition?

You're not her boss. YOU don't even work at Bethesda.

Maybe the fact that she is the COMMUNITY MANAGER. Expecting people to do their jobs is not really insult worthy.

Suddwrath · February 2019

Zathras wrote: »

Not to spoil this little parade you seem to be throwing yourselves.. but:

"Parade"?

Asking for a Community Manager for an update on the "improved communication" she mentioned three months ago is a parade?

Pointing out the irony of zero improvement in communication several months after a Community Manager apologized for a lack of communication is a parade?

There was discussion at the beginning since it was back when Gina originally apologized for the lack of communication, but did you notice what ironically happened? The communication stopped.

On a thread whose topic revolved around lack of communication from ZOS, a Community Manager (after having previously apologized for a lack of communication) mentioned that there is a plan for improving said communication. But three months later there has not been a single update nor has the overall communication improved.

That is not a parade my friend.

Gythral · February 2019

sums ZOS communication skills up...

Alinhbo_Tyaka · February 2019

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Shraar wrote: »

What makes you tink tu derserve real communition?

You're not her boss. YOU don't even work at Bethesda.

Maybe the fact that she is the COMMUNITY MANAGER. Expecting people to do their jobs is not really insult worthy.

I guess a lot boils down to what the ZOS definition of a Community Manager is. To me CM rings too much of the marketing side of the house. Personally I would prefer to deal with someone with a title of Customer or Player Support as it isn't ambiguous as to who they should be representing.

kpittsniperb14_ESO · February 2019

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Shraar wrote: »

What makes you tink tu derserve real communition?

You're not her boss. YOU don't even work at Bethesda.

Maybe the fact that she is the COMMUNITY MANAGER. Expecting people to do their jobs is not really insult worthy.

Blaming customers for developers dropping the ball is the norm on these forums.

Suddwrath · February 2019

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

I guess a lot boils down to what the ZOS definition of a Community Manager is.

I have wondered this as well. If the Community Managers' responsibilities don't even include interacting with the community in the forums, then whose job is it?

The Forum Mods mostly monitor threads and enforce forum rules, so their job is to mostly keep the forums from falling into chaos and even more toxicity.
The Community Ambassadors aren't even employed by ZOS, so it can't be their responsibility since they don't interact with the devs the way that the Community Managers do.
Sometimes a dev will get on to address a specific gameplay aspect, such as Finn talking about a dungeon or Rob talking about the combat update.
Gina also handles the Class Rep and community contest programs, so she does other things than just interacting with the community.
Sarah is the Social Media Manager but she occasionally pops into the forums.
Not sure about Jessica since her bio isn't on the ZOS website.

So my question is: If the Community Managers are focused more on other things such as the Class Reps, contests, preparing patch notes, etc., then whose job is supposed to interact with the community on ZOS' behalf? I ask this because if what we have been asking for isn't even in Gina's responsibilities, then of course it would be unfair of us to ask those things of her.