So about that communication, ZOS...

Iluvrien

SaltySudd wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno should we just assume this isn't actually going to happen?

There has been zero communication regarding this ever since November. At least @ZOS_RobGarrett has given the community small updates along the way on his team's progress with codifying their goals for the future of combat in ESO.

If I was in the proper mood, then ZOS failing to communicate about their plans to improve their failing communication, would have me rolling in the aisles at this point...

... sadly the irony is lost on me at the moment and I am less than amused.

Numerikuu

gepe87 wrote: »

the_other_Alice wrote: »

Don´t you worry - they are comunicating just fine...
For instance if the next events are broken as well - who cares?
"Note that we are also planning to add Event Tickets to the Crown Store late Q1"
Nuff said

Sounds they just want to profit till they close the game.

Exactly, though that's no surprise. It's an MMO. All MMO's go down that path, this one certainly included.

Suddwrath

Iluvrien wrote: »

If I was in the proper mood, then ZOS failing to communicate about their plans to improve their failing communication, would have me rolling in the aisles at this point...

... sadly the irony is lost on me at the moment and I am less than amused.

At this point it's almost expected.

ZOS had a great opportunity to improve their communication with the community. The day that Gina came out and apologized for the lack of communication could have been a turning point, but nothing has changed and that's the part that I don't understand.

How can you apologize for a lack of communication, but then don't improve said communication? It literally hurts my brain to try and understand how any business could make that sort of apology without following it up with any meaningful change.

Suddwrath

Numerikuu wrote: »

gepe87 wrote: »

Sounds they just want to profit till they close the game.

Exactly, though that's no surprise. It's an MMO. All MMO's go down that path, this one certainly included.

Agreed.

It really does feel as though they are trying to monetize ESO as much as they can before putting it down and turning to their next game. ZOS' brand name is going to be attached to any other game they release. Right now, if they were to release a new game my initial reaction would be "Oh boy, I can't wait to experience poor communication with this new game!".

Players are going to remember their experience with ZOS from ESO. A new game isn't going to wipe the slate clean. ZOS had a clean slate back when they first released ESO, but that slate has now been tainted by poor communication, questionable marketing strategies, and abysmal technical performance.

Suddwrath

@ZOS_GinaBruno please glance at the forums to see how many EU players are experiencing issues and how their concerns have gone without any acknowledgement from ZOS.

Is this what "improved communication" looks like?

jazsper77

Not ALL MMO go down the path of terrible community communications.
WARFRAME has top notch community information. Rebecca and crew are phenomenal, so please don’t try to white knight ESO failure of community relations on it happens everywhere.
Ty

Dalsinthus

SaltySudd wrote: »

How can you apologize for a lack of communication, but then don't improve said communication? It literally hurts my brain to try and understand how any business could make that sort of apology without following it up with any meaningful change.

So much of this. After the some of the changes to racials and the lack of incorporation or really acknowledgment of player feedback (orc over performing, bosmer's hunter's eye being unpopular and limited in usefulness, altmer spell recharge not fitting with lore and not benefiting pve, unexplained khajiit crit damage change, etc.), I am pretty much convinced that there is no point to leaving feedback on the forums. This is a place for us to vent and talk about the game, but we shouldn't expect it to actually accomplish anything. The best we can hope for is that the class reps do a reasonable job passing along player feedback.

I mean Gina apologized for lack of engagement with the community in November, estimated that ZOS would begin to improve things in lat 2018 or early 2019 and here we are in late February 2019 with no further response. All I can do is shrug at this point and enjoy the game for what it is but mange my own expectations downward as much as possible.

It's also not just communication on the forums by the way. There is rampant ap boosting and other forms of cheating going on in Sotha Sil Xbox NA right now. It's been reported and reported but ZOS has taken no action against the cheaters, so the problem just gets worse and worse. I'm left with the impression that ZOS does not care (or simply does not have the bandwidth or capacity to address problems), so I've stopped caring as well.

Acrolas

SaltySudd wrote: »

How can you apologize for a lack of communication, but then don't improve said communication? It literally hurts my brain to try and understand how any business could make that sort of apology without following it up with any meaningful change.

Try this on.

You're a software development company.
You publicly communicate what you're doing internally for fixes and other issues, how you're doing it, and when.
Fans don't really care too much about that information. It's mostly forgotten when the issue passes.
But do you know who loves information like that? Other developers. You've just freely given away information that any other company can use to keep their costs down.

Where's the strategic value in that?

Time and time again, both ZOS and Bethesda have repeated that if you have an issue, put in a support ticket.
More feedback on exactly what individuals are experiencing helps them gain a larger perspective for what is causing specific flaws.
Just because you don't get a personalized response back doesn't mean your feedback isn't helping fix issues. It's just a really good business move to be as explicitly vague as possible, to protect your own work and your own investments from others who would willingly profit from them. Because you really don't know whether a support ticket was put in by a player, by a bot, or by an employee at a rival company.

You can't assume anything anymore. Research via impersonation is an actual thing.

So the endgame full disclosure some people want just is not going to happen. ZOS will engage at points of interest - events, community, and content. That's all they should do.
They're not going to publicly talk through improvements and fixes.
They're not going to divulge anything that can used by a competitor.
They're going to go extremely gently on any topic that is not officially confirmed or is currently unresolved.

I know players are going to expect more, but players have a different scope of work because they've chosen to ignore or vilify the business mindset. Exacerbated by the Internet troll mentality, it's become a whole lot more "Do what makes me happy today or I quit" and a whole lot less "Do what's best for the longevity of the product even if it's a little inconveniencing in the short term".


I can write all this because I'm not affiliated with ZOS professionally in any way so I have the luxury of distance.
I do know I wouldn't have written it at all if I were. But I'd be thinking it. Sometimes with communication you have to know what would have been said to know what can't be said or has been edited to be said somewhat differently.

I haven't taken any official comment here as an indication that they're suddenly going to open up the floodgates. I see it as a very human response to the frustration that there are many instances where they want to do more but for reasons explained above and more, they can't be as informative or descriptive or unfiltered as it would take to widely and effectively communicate empathy through a digital medium.

So you just have to take a leap of faith and realize there's a certain nuance to what might be perceived as indifference.

oXI_Viper_IXo

I

Acrolas wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

How can you apologize for a lack of communication, but then don't improve said communication? It literally hurts my brain to try and understand how any business could make that sort of apology without following it up with any meaningful change.

Try this on.

You're a software development company.
You publicly communicate what you're doing internally for fixes and other issues, how you're doing it, and when.
Fans don't really care too much about that information. It's mostly forgotten when the issue passes.
But do you know who loves information like that? Other developers. You've just freely given away information that any other company can use to keep their costs down.

Where's the strategic value in that?

Time and time again, both ZOS and Bethesda have repeated that if you have an issue, put in a support ticket.
More feedback on exactly what individuals are experiencing helps them gain a larger perspective for what is causing specific flaws.
Just because you don't get a personalized response back doesn't mean your feedback isn't helping fix issues. It's just a really good business move to be as explicitly vague as possible, to protect your own work and your own investments from others who would willingly profit from them. Because you really don't know whether a support ticket was put in by a player, by a bot, or by an employee at a rival company.

You can't assume anything anymore. Research via impersonation is an actual thing.

So the endgame full disclosure some people want just is not going to happen. ZOS will engage at points of interest - events, community, and content. That's all they should do.
They're not going to publicly talk through improvements and fixes.
They're not going to divulge anything that can used by a competitor.
They're going to go extremely gently on any topic that is not officially confirmed or is currently unresolved.

I know players are going to expect more, but players have a different scope of work because they've chosen to ignore or vilify the business mindset. Exacerbated by the Internet troll mentality, it's become a whole lot more "Do what makes me happy today or I quit" and a whole lot less "Do what's best for the longevity of the product even if it's a little inconveniencing in the short term".


I can write all this because I'm not affiliated with ZOS professionally in any way so I have the luxury of distance.
I do know I wouldn't have written it at all if I were. But I'd be thinking it. Sometimes with communication you have to know what would have been said to know what can't be said or has been edited to be said somewhat differently.

I haven't taken any official comment here as an indication that they're suddenly going to open up the floodgates. I see it as a very human response to the frustration that there are many instances where they want to do more but for reasons explained above and more, they can't be as informative or descriptive or unfiltered as it would take to widely and effectively communicate empathy through a digital medium.

So you just have to take a leap of faith and realize there's a certain nuance to what might be perceived as indifference.

You miss the point entirely. We were told by the Community Manager, a person whose job it is to communicate with said community, that the communication would improve. Unfortunately, not only has it not improved even a little bit, it's somehow managed to get worse. It's like some sort of sick joke and if I didn't enjoy the game as much as I do, this is exactly the kind of thing that would drive me away from it.

Suddwrath

@Acrolas
Back in November (or was it October?) ZOS released an update which screwed over trials. Many of which could no longer even be completed due to the amount of game breaking bugs. Players flooded the forums with their feedback but ZOS was absolutely silent for nearly two weeks. Then Gina finally came out and said:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone. First of all, you aren't wrong. We agree we haven't been communicating as much as we should on this matter (among others) and for that, we apologize. There really is no excuse.

This doesn't have anything to do with trade secrets or receiving personal responses. The community as a whole, or at least a vast majority of it, were experiencing game breaking issues and ZOS was absolutely silent on it. Not even a "We are looking into this". Gina herself admitted there wasn't an excuse.

It was, and still is, a matter of poor customer service. We are not expecting a play-by-play of every issue being fixed, but rather communication from ZOS which acknowledges that they are aware of these issues and are actively looking into them. Just look at the issues affecting PC EU right now. Hundreds of reports from players for almost two weeks but yet ZOS has remained absolutely silent on it again.

The Uninvited

*crickets*

MLGProPlayer

I really enjoyed all the communication from ZOS after all of these major racial changes. It really helped put things into perspective and assuage concerns. Great job!

Suddwrath

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

You miss the point entirely. We were told by the Community Manager, a person whose job it is to communicate with said community, that the communication would improve. Unfortunately, not only has it not improved even a little bit, it's somehow managed to get worse. It's like some sort of sick joke and if I didn't enjoy the game as much as I do, this is exactly the kind of thing that would drive me away from it.

Exactly.

And that's what makes it so confusing. A Community Manager apologized for the lack of communication but did not improve the communication. This wasn't just a random dev or someone from the dungeon team apologizing for the trials being broken. This was a Community Manager who specifically apologized for a lack of communication.

I'm honestly just at a loss for words from how long this has been going on. I just can't wrap my head around why ZOS thinks this lack of communication is okay.

Numerikuu

jazsper77 wrote: »

Not ALL MMO go down the path of terrible community communications.
WARFRAME has top notch community information. Rebecca and crew are phenomenal

Amen. Community managers and devs that love and play their game just as much as their own community do, and communicate and patch around the clock... all from a free to play game.

Meanwhile, on ESO............

Suddwrath

@ZOS_GinaBruno where is the communication regarding the problems which have been affecting EU players for weeks?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456643/massive-deterioration-of-gameplay-quality-on-pc-eu-server-since-maintenance-jan-28#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459831/pc-eu-quality-of-game-poll-only-for-eu-players#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459570/pc-eu-server-is-working-like-garbage#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459583/pc-eu-server-state-is-unnaceptable#latest

CiNNeR

Acrolas wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

How can you apologize for a lack of communication, but then don't improve said communication? It literally hurts my brain to try and understand how any business could make that sort of apology without following it up with any meaningful change.

Try this on.

You're a software development company.
You publicly communicate what you're doing internally for fixes and other issues, how you're doing it, and when.
Fans don't really care too much about that information. It's mostly forgotten when the issue passes.
But do you know who loves information like that? Other developers. You've just freely given away information that any other company can use to keep their costs down.

Where's the strategic value in that?

Time and time again, both ZOS and Bethesda have repeated that if you have an issue, put in a support ticket.
More feedback on exactly what individuals are experiencing helps them gain a larger perspective for what is causing specific flaws.
Just because you don't get a personalized response back doesn't mean your feedback isn't helping fix issues. It's just a really good business move to be as explicitly vague as possible, to protect your own work and your own investments from others who would willingly profit from them. Because you really don't know whether a support ticket was put in by a player, by a bot, or by an employee at a rival company.

You can't assume anything anymore. Research via impersonation is an actual thing.

So the endgame full disclosure some people want just is not going to happen. ZOS will engage at points of interest - events, community, and content. That's all they should do.
They're not going to publicly talk through improvements and fixes.
They're not going to divulge anything that can used by a competitor.
They're going to go extremely gently on any topic that is not officially confirmed or is currently unresolved.

I know players are going to expect more, but players have a different scope of work because they've chosen to ignore or vilify the business mindset. Exacerbated by the Internet troll mentality, it's become a whole lot more "Do what makes me happy today or I quit" and a whole lot less "Do what's best for the longevity of the product even if it's a little inconveniencing in the short term".


I can write all this because I'm not affiliated with ZOS professionally in any way so I have the luxury of distance.
I do know I wouldn't have written it at all if I were. But I'd be thinking it. Sometimes with communication you have to know what would have been said to know what can't be said or has been edited to be said somewhat differently.

I haven't taken any official comment here as an indication that they're suddenly going to open up the floodgates. I see it as a very human response to the frustration that there are many instances where they want to do more but for reasons explained above and more, they can't be as informative or descriptive or unfiltered as it would take to widely and effectively communicate empathy through a digital medium.

So you just have to take a leap of faith and realize there's a certain nuance to what might be perceived as indifference.

But none of us is asking for compagny secrets or inside information.

My frustration about the game breaking up all the time would be a lot less when ZOS just give a public aknowledgement that they know about the problems and are busy searching for a solution. Just like what happened for the NA server, where ZOS gave an answer within thirty minutes on a weekend! Now I am getting pissed off. Not only is my game breaking up all the time, we get no respons at all but are completely ignored.

Mr_Wolfe

Acrolas wrote: »

Time and time again, both ZOS and Bethesda have repeated that if you have an issue, put in a support ticket.

ZOS doesn't respond to support tickets.

As for the rest of what you said, honestly it just sounds like BS with a layer of execu-speak thrown over it. "We can't let our competitors know what we're up to, that could be bad! Also, our customers might be spies so we can't tell them anything either! It's not that we have terrible customer service, we just can't talk to our customers or they'll steal all our secrets!"

Pretty sure consistently delivering a buggy, poorly tested product and blatantly ignoring your customer's feedback / concerns is a bigger threat to a software company's bottom line than some vague, hypothetical corporate espionage. Say ZOS does acknowledge a bug pointed out by the community. They tell us they're working on a fix, and keep us updated on how it's going. What, precisely, could a competitor do with that information? Patch it themselves?

valeriiya

Acrolas wrote: »
Time and time again, both ZOS and Bethesda have repeated that if you have an issue, put in a support ticket.

@Acrolas how many tickets do you think is sufficient for players to put in before ZO$ should respond? How many videos do we need to post before they respond?

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Acrolas wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

How can you apologize for a lack of communication, but then don't improve said communication? It literally hurts my brain to try and understand how any business could make that sort of apology without following it up with any meaningful change.

Try this on.

You're a software development company.
You publicly communicate what you're doing internally for fixes and other issues, how you're doing it, and when.
Fans don't really care too much about that information. It's mostly forgotten when the issue passes.
But do you know who loves information like that? Other developers. You've just freely given away information that any other company can use to keep their costs down.

Where's the strategic value in that?

Time and time again, both ZOS and Bethesda have repeated that if you have an issue, put in a support ticket.
More feedback on exactly what individuals are experiencing helps them gain a larger perspective for what is causing specific flaws.
Just because you don't get a personalized response back doesn't mean your feedback isn't helping fix issues. It's just a really good business move to be as explicitly vague as possible, to protect your own work and your own investments from others who would willingly profit from them. Because you really don't know whether a support ticket was put in by a player, by a bot, or by an employee at a rival company.

You can't assume anything anymore. Research via impersonation is an actual thing.

So the endgame full disclosure some people want just is not going to happen. ZOS will engage at points of interest - events, community, and content. That's all they should do.
They're not going to publicly talk through improvements and fixes.
They're not going to divulge anything that can used by a competitor.
They're going to go extremely gently on any topic that is not officially confirmed or is currently unresolved.

I know players are going to expect more, but players have a different scope of work because they've chosen to ignore or vilify the business mindset. Exacerbated by the Internet troll mentality, it's become a whole lot more "Do what makes me happy today or I quit" and a whole lot less "Do what's best for the longevity of the product even if it's a little inconveniencing in the short term".


I can write all this because I'm not affiliated with ZOS professionally in any way so I have the luxury of distance.
I do know I wouldn't have written it at all if I were. But I'd be thinking it. Sometimes with communication you have to know what would have been said to know what can't be said or has been edited to be said somewhat differently.

I haven't taken any official comment here as an indication that they're suddenly going to open up the floodgates. I see it as a very human response to the frustration that there are many instances where they want to do more but for reasons explained above and more, they can't be as informative or descriptive or unfiltered as it would take to widely and effectively communicate empathy through a digital medium.

So you just have to take a leap of faith and realize there's a certain nuance to what might be perceived as indifference.

Having spent over thirty years as a software developer, designer and architect you are wrong on all counts. When problems or concerns are brought forward by your customers you just don't let them appear to fall into a black hole. You have to acknowledge them and then take concrete steps to evaluate them and respond. Things like bugs are pretty straight forward in that all they have to say is they accepted it as a bug and will resolved. Other responses could be it is working as intended or they are considering the idea for future improvement. Heck saying they need more information would be an improvement over what we have today. ZOS doesn't have to commit to dates though it would be nice if they would provide a patch target for bugs. Regardless when solutions or answers to reported problems are decided then they need to be reflected back to the player base using the appropriate vehicle for the problem (i.e. patch notes, support ticket, etc).

None of this gives the competition any insight into proprietary information. In fact their lack of communication gives the competition a marketing edge. All they have to say is ESO is buggy and ZOS ignores the problems and their player base so come over to us because we never leave players hanging on about the status of their problems or concerns.

Moloch1514

Is @ZOS_RobGarrett still with ZOS? He seems to have stopped any community engagement, which I had thought he was going to be doing as part of his role and ZOS' attempt to improve communication on their end. This PTS cycle has continued the trend of last several updates with little to no dev engagement on major concerns.

Suddwrath

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

None of this gives the competition any insight into proprietary information. In fact their lack of communication gives the competition a marketing edge. All they have to say is ESO is buggy and ZOS ignores the problems and their player base so come over to us because we never leave players hanging on about the status of their problems or concerns.

Cannot agree enough with this. ZOS is shooting themselves in the foot by not communicating with their community.

Elsonso

.

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Is @ZOS_RobGarrett still with ZOS?

Since he was last reading the forum yesterday, I would go with "Yes, he is still with ZOS".

Moloch1514

lordrichter wrote: »

.

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Is @ZOS_RobGarrett still with ZOS?

Since he was last reading the forum yesterday, I would go with "Yes, he is still with ZOS".

Good to know. I didn't see his post in the Dev tracker yesterday.

MLGProPlayer

Moloch1514 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

.

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Is @ZOS_RobGarrett still with ZOS?

Since he was last reading the forum yesterday, I would go with "Yes, he is still with ZOS".

Good to know. I didn't see his post in the Dev tracker yesterday.

That's because he hasn't posted anything in 1.5 months.

eso_lags

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone. First of all, you aren't wrong. We agree we haven't been communicating as much as we should on this matter (among others) and for that, we apologize. There really is no excuse.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

There is a lack of clarity in the level of communication we get from ZOS. it increases as we enter a DLC or Chapter phase, followed by long silences.

Many games i have seen address this use the "newsletter" style, where once a week they pick the main forum issues and provide updates, even if it is just a "we're aware of this and we're working on it"
I think this would be a huge step forwards.

Say for example we have recently had issues with Biting Jabs, Snipe and the lack of AoE's showing up in trials.

Imagine on a Friday if someone from ZOS (Gina or Jessica as an example) made a list of the main points from that week and some dev comments on where they are with the fix.

Have it on the forum banner so it's easy access. ESO Live is great but not regular enough to keep everyone in the loop on what the player base wants to know. The game moves fast and is huge so ZOS ideally needs more regular communication with us.

We've seen the forum and community basically explode in recent months over a number of issues and if even a bit of direct communication had been given it could have been *mostly* averted.

You have some interesting ideas to consider here. I'll think about what we can commit to and try over the next few weeks.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/445841/the-silence-of-zenimax/p2

Ackwalan

Earlier today someone posted a video that showed someone else clearly cheating. The video had the name blocked out, yet the thread was deleted on. This is not how communication is done.

eso_lags

Ackwalan wrote: »

Earlier today someone posted a video that showed someone else clearly cheating. The video had the name blocked out, yet the thread was deleted on. This is not how communication is done.

LOL I was just reading that. Wow of course they deleted it. I dont believe that showed any names or how to do it? But i could be wrong.

LonePirate

SaltySudd wrote: »

ZOS had a great opportunity to improve their communication with the community. The day that Gina came out and apologized for the lack of communication could have been a turning point, but nothing has changed and that's the part that I don't understand.

How can you apologize for a lack of communication, but then don't improve said communication? It literally hurts my brain to try and understand how any business could make that sort of apology without following it up with any meaningful change.

Are you suggesting that the apology was meaningless and hollow due to the lack of follow-up and action in the three months since it was issued?

phantasmalD

Acrolas wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

How can you apologize for a lack of communication, but then don't improve said communication? It literally hurts my brain to try and understand how any business could make that sort of apology without following it up with any meaningful change.

Try this on.

You're a software development company.
You publicly communicate what you're doing internally for fixes and other issues, how you're doing it, and when.
Fans don't really care too much about that information. It's mostly forgotten when the issue passes.
But do you know who loves information like that? Other developers. You've just freely given away information that any other company can use to keep their costs down.

Where's the strategic value in that?

Time and time again, both ZOS and Bethesda have repeated that if you have an issue, put in a support ticket.
More feedback on exactly what individuals are experiencing helps them gain a larger perspective for what is causing specific flaws.
Just because you don't get a personalized response back doesn't mean your feedback isn't helping fix issues. It's just a really good business move to be as explicitly vague as possible, to protect your own work and your own investments from others who would willingly profit from them. Because you really don't know whether a support ticket was put in by a player, by a bot, or by an employee at a rival company.

You can't assume anything anymore. Research via impersonation is an actual thing.

So the endgame full disclosure some people want just is not going to happen. ZOS will engage at points of interest - events, community, and content. That's all they should do.
They're not going to publicly talk through improvements and fixes.
They're not going to divulge anything that can used by a competitor.
They're going to go extremely gently on any topic that is not officially confirmed or is currently unresolved.

I know players are going to expect more, but players have a different scope of work because they've chosen to ignore or vilify the business mindset. Exacerbated by the Internet troll mentality, it's become a whole lot more "Do what makes me happy today or I quit" and a whole lot less "Do what's best for the longevity of the product even if it's a little inconveniencing in the short term".


I can write all this because I'm not affiliated with ZOS professionally in any way so I have the luxury of distance.
I do know I wouldn't have written it at all if I were. But I'd be thinking it. Sometimes with communication you have to know what would have been said to know what can't be said or has been edited to be said somewhat differently.

I haven't taken any official comment here as an indication that they're suddenly going to open up the floodgates. I see it as a very human response to the frustration that there are many instances where they want to do more but for reasons explained above and more, they can't be as informative or descriptive or unfiltered as it would take to widely and effectively communicate empathy through a digital medium.

So you just have to take a leap of faith and realize there's a certain nuance to what might be perceived as indifference.

Wow, this comment. This isn't the krabby patty, there isn't some secret formula that needs to be protected from those dastardly competitors.
I don't think software engineering is a very secretive job in the first place. Programs are written with well defined, somewhat publicly accessible tools and software engineers can and do often change jobs, taking the knowledge they gained during development with them. You can't really stop the exchange of information.

But even if it was, people aren't asking for uncompiled code here, merely asking for some more transparency regarding things like on-going server issues and acknowledgement of player feedback on balance checks (like the recent PTS).

Tommy_The_Gun

This is what happens if a game starts to make too much money. They won't improve because they don't need to.