The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Dissapointed with the final patch
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Razorback174✭✭✭✭✭Razorback174 wrote: »Razorback174 wrote: »
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
I don't know, maybe the fact that Khajiit have arguably the better eyesight? Given their cat eyes and all. So why do they get stealth, and Bosmer lose it entirely?
I'm not arguing that Khajiit should lose this bonus, but damn if the Bosmer should either. Ever heard of the "right of theft"? It's in the game for goodness sake!. A whole culture with a tradition of sneaking, stealing, and thieving. And that identity is now gone.
A Bosmer (one of the most smallest and most nimble of the races) is now as sneaky as a huge Nord, Imperial, or Orc. If that's not lore-shattering, I have no idea what is.
Actually khajiits do not have better eyesight. If You would know cats eye anatomy You would've know why. To see better at night cats sacrifice eyesight because they have lowered amount of retinas in their eyes responsible for seeing colours to increase amount of irises responsible for absorbing the light which is helping them to see better at night but for the cost of generally weaker eyesight and lower visible color palette. It's also not true that cats can see in somplete darkness. Their eyesight especially during the day is pretty weak when compared to humans. They have sharp vision only up to ~6 meters which is kinda small distance. Cats are also really good at noticing movement but horrible at noticing the targets that are not moving to the point certain animals developed tactics to stand still to avoid being noticed by cats. Like seriously belive me the more You know about cats eye anatomy the more reasonable it becomes for khajiits to not have stealth detection if You want to base that feature on eyesight.
As I said previously mass and size is not instantly connected with sneaking capabilities. 300 kg 3 meters long tiger have better chance to sneak behind You unnoticed then 2 kg chicken.
Ok then, we'll base it on hearing. Cat's are much more perceptive when it comes to hearing. Hear a noise, sense a target, and there you have detection.
Look, I don't care, I don't want them to tear stealth away from Khajiit either. I'm not advocating for it and I'm not arguing for it. But for the devs to pass off a **** stealth detection bonus that serves NO purpose in almost every aspect of gameplay on a race also fundamentally known for its stealth is disgusting.
At this point, I feel like I could live with the equally useless dodge roll active passive skill they've given us as well IF and ONLY IF they give the previous stealth bonus back.
Ah so now You'll jump between the senses just to match Your theory ? Kinda lame way but ok. You do realize that in Elder Scrolls lore all mers have extended size of ears when in case of khajist proportion of their ear to the size of head is actually smaller then in case of regular cats ? Also when it comes to "sensing" a target cats use their mustaches for that which can sense the vibrations but to make those mustaches effective cats need to have their heads closer to the ground so evolution of khajits eliminated also that feature by straightening their siluetes and making them 2 leg walkers which increased the distance their mustaches have to the ground.
ZoS made things clear they wanted for every race to have unique passive and they did not wanted for 2 races to have identical non resource related passives. Since wood elfs match better to the hunter type of charatcer (faster leveling of bow) and khajits more to the thief type (higher chance to pickpocket) type they gaved them both passives that would reflect those roles since they could give them only 1 passive for each due to racial passives limitations in ESO. Now both of those races can use stealth and have stealth connected features but khajits will be better known for their use of stealth when wood elfves will be better known for their stealth detection. Also it's not like all other races have all their passives usefull everywhere at any given time so stop complaining.
I get the feeling you're missing my entire argument here, since you keep deciding to trying to make the case that cats don't have a reason for detection passive (even though it can be argued that they do).
You want more in-game arguments for Bosmer to keep their stealth? Here's one from Pocket Guide to the Empire First Edition: The Wild Region
"They [Maormer] are known to possess a strange, chameleon-like skin, an involuntary process that is similar to the forest-coupling skills of the Bosmer."
While that statement focuses mostly on the Maormer, they liken it to a similar ability innate to the Bosmer. "Chameleon-like" sure sounds stealthy to me. But I digress.
We have 2 stealth races, it has been that way for 5 years of this game, and even longer considering the previous games. They are now tearing out the stealth of one (on a whim) and giving it a **** passive instead. It's that simple.
All other races have a utility passive that will see some sort of use in ALL aspects of gameplay. Even the crap Spell Recharge, though it's near equally as useless and lore-breaking.
You show me where stealth detection is remotely applicable anywhere outside of even the most situational moments in PvP and then I'll stop complaining.7 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Razorback174 wrote: »Razorback174 wrote: »Razorback174 wrote: »
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
I don't know, maybe the fact that Khajiit have arguably the better eyesight? Given their cat eyes and all. So why do they get stealth, and Bosmer lose it entirely?
I'm not arguing that Khajiit should lose this bonus, but damn if the Bosmer should either. Ever heard of the "right of theft"? It's in the game for goodness sake!. A whole culture with a tradition of sneaking, stealing, and thieving. And that identity is now gone.
A Bosmer (one of the most smallest and most nimble of the races) is now as sneaky as a huge Nord, Imperial, or Orc. If that's not lore-shattering, I have no idea what is.
Actually khajiits do not have better eyesight. If You would know cats eye anatomy You would've know why. To see better at night cats sacrifice eyesight because they have lowered amount of retinas in their eyes responsible for seeing colours to increase amount of irises responsible for absorbing the light which is helping them to see better at night but for the cost of generally weaker eyesight and lower visible color palette. It's also not true that cats can see in somplete darkness. Their eyesight especially during the day is pretty weak when compared to humans. They have sharp vision only up to ~6 meters which is kinda small distance. Cats are also really good at noticing movement but horrible at noticing the targets that are not moving to the point certain animals developed tactics to stand still to avoid being noticed by cats. Like seriously belive me the more You know about cats eye anatomy the more reasonable it becomes for khajiits to not have stealth detection if You want to base that feature on eyesight.
As I said previously mass and size is not instantly connected with sneaking capabilities. 300 kg 3 meters long tiger have better chance to sneak behind You unnoticed then 2 kg chicken.
Ok then, we'll base it on hearing. Cat's are much more perceptive when it comes to hearing. Hear a noise, sense a target, and there you have detection.
Look, I don't care, I don't want them to tear stealth away from Khajiit either. I'm not advocating for it and I'm not arguing for it. But for the devs to pass off a **** stealth detection bonus that serves NO purpose in almost every aspect of gameplay on a race also fundamentally known for its stealth is disgusting.
At this point, I feel like I could live with the equally useless dodge roll active passive skill they've given us as well IF and ONLY IF they give the previous stealth bonus back.
Ah so now You'll jump between the senses just to match Your theory ? Kinda lame way but ok. You do realize that in Elder Scrolls lore all mers have extended size of ears when in case of khajist proportion of their ear to the size of head is actually smaller then in case of regular cats ? Also when it comes to "sensing" a target cats use their mustaches for that which can sense the vibrations but to make those mustaches effective cats need to have their heads closer to the ground so evolution of khajits eliminated also that feature by straightening their siluetes and making them 2 leg walkers which increased the distance their mustaches have to the ground.
ZoS made things clear they wanted for every race to have unique passive and they did not wanted for 2 races to have identical non resource related passives. Since wood elfs match better to the hunter type of charatcer (faster leveling of bow) and khajits more to the thief type (higher chance to pickpocket) type they gaved them both passives that would reflect those roles since they could give them only 1 passive for each due to racial passives limitations in ESO. Now both of those races can use stealth and have stealth connected features but khajits will be better known for their use of stealth when wood elfves will be better known for their stealth detection. Also it's not like all other races have all their passives usefull everywhere at any given time so stop complaining.
I get the feeling you're missing my entire argument here, since you keep deciding to trying to make the case that cats don't have a reason for detection passive (even though it can be argued that they do).
You want more in-game arguments for Bosmer to keep their stealth? Here's one from Pocket Guide to the Empire First Edition: The Wild Region
"They [Maormer] are known to possess a strange, chameleon-like skin, an involuntary process that is similar to the forest-coupling skills of the Bosmer."
While that statement focuses mostly on the Maormer, they liken it to a similar ability innate to the Bosmer. "Chameleon-like" sure sounds stealthy to me. But I digress.
We have 2 stealth races, it has been that way for 5 years of this game, and even longer considering the previous games. They are now tearing out the stealth of one (on a whim) and giving it a **** passive instead. It's that simple.
All other races have a utility passive that will see some sort of use in ALL aspects of gameplay. Even the crap Spell Recharge, though it's near equally as useless and lore-breaking.
You show me where stealth detection is remotely applicable anywhere outside of even the most situational moments in PvP and then I'll stop complaining.
You take things out of xcontext. As the text continues it says that bosmers have "forest-coupling" skills a k a outside of the forest it's useless. Remind me where in ESO we have dense forests ?
ESO is MMO not single payer TES game so You cannot expect copy pasted single player solutions for every aspect of it. It's that simple.
Other races have also passives that will be useless for most of the time like for example dunmer lava dmg reduction. Even khajiit stealth passive wont be used for most of the time.0 -
ATomiX96✭✭✭✭✭
✭Don't worry!
They are just gonna throw away all the feedback from the 5 weeks of PTS and completely change races again when it hits life without any possibilty of playtesting it first
Wouldn't be the first time they did that.2 -
Razorback174✭✭✭✭✭Other races have also passives that will be useless for most of the time like for example dunmer lava dmg reduction.
Wrong on all accounts here. It's a FIRE damage reduction and immunity to the burning status condition. Fire damage is incredibly abundant in PvE, as it is in PvP as well. Therefore, this passive will see use on both sides.
Would you like to try again?2 -
anadandy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Other races have also passives that will be useless for most of the time like for example dunmer lava dmg reduction. Even khajiit stealth passive wont be used for most of the time.
Key words. Most of the time. Stealth Detection is useless in PVE all the time. As in completely and totally without use.7 -
Kalle_Demos✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
Skill Bonuses:
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10
Specials:
Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
What about Oblivion?
Skills:
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits:
Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
Skryim?
Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.
So what words do Dunmer have for me?
The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
"Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.
Fire Damage IS part of the Destruction School of Magic. Dunmer affinity for Elemental Damage is not new as your post points out and has been part of their identity for years. Only Alter match them in that regard and they too have bonuses to elemental damage in ESO.
Morrowind:
"The destruction skill is the mastery of the spell effects of the College of Destruction . Their spells harm living and unliving things, and include elemental damage , draining, damaging, vulnerability, and disintegration magical effects."
Oblivion:
Destruction is a magic arts skill that imbues the Hero with the ability to cast destructive spells that include fire spells, frost spells, shock spells, and weakness to fire, frost, and shock spells. It also allows the Hero to reduce damage from other magical attacks. The Skingrad Mages Guild specializes in Destruction. It is the most commonly used magic type for mages to defend themselves with.
Skyrim:
"The School of Destruction involves harnessing the energies of fire , frost and shock. This skill makes it easier to cast spells like Fireball, Ice Spike, and Lightning Bolt."
"If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm going to love when this patch goes live and the rest of the player base (the ones who don't follow PTS happenings) catches wind of the changes. ZOS will wish they listened to our feedback here. Or maybe I'm giving them too much credit and they'll just ignore that feedback too.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 21, 2019 1:31PM4 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other races have also passives that will be useless for most of the time like for example dunmer lava dmg reduction. Even khajiit stealth passive wont be used for most of the time.
Key words. Most of the time. Stealth Detection is useless in PVE all the time. As in completely and totally without use.
What id I told You not every passive needs to be usefull in every type of content ? For example show me how breton 1% more AP is usefull in PvE. And before You'll try to advocate that those 1st passives are just not important memes wood elf have 10% fall dmg reduction there which is pretty handy in both PvE and PvP.Edited by Juhasow on February 21, 2019 2:28PM0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Razorback174 wrote: »Other races have also passives that will be useless for most of the time like for example dunmer lava dmg reduction.
Wrong on all accounts here. It's a FIRE damage reduction and immunity to the burning status condition. Fire damage is incredibly abundant in PvE, as it is in PvP as well. Therefore, this passive will see use on both sides.
Would you like to try again?
Would You like to try to read dunmer passives again ? ALL of them. Dunmer have both lava dmg reduction and fire resistance same as wood elf for example have fall dmg reduction and posion dmg resistance. It's good to double check Your knowledge before cocky commenting and making fool out of Yourself.
Edited by Juhasow on February 21, 2019 2:32PM0 -
anadandy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Other races have also passives that will be useless for most of the time like for example dunmer lava dmg reduction. Even khajiit stealth passive wont be used for most of the time.
Key words. Most of the time. Stealth Detection is useless in PVE all the time. As in completely and totally without use.
What id I told You not every passive needs to be usefull in every type of content ? For example show me how breton 1% more AP is usefull in PvE. And before You'll try to advocate that those 1st passives are just not important memes wood elf have 10% fall dmg reduction there which is pretty handy in both PvE and PvP.
What if I told you not to assume my answer? I have stated in other comments that the only other passive that could be related to the "useless in anything but PVP" context is the Breton 1% AP gain. I agree with that - though I also think that technically it is useful in PVE because the PVE quests in Cyro and IC grant AP.
But we're really going into the weeds here. 1% AP gain is not what I would consider a core racial identity. A Breton without AP Gain is pretty much still a Breton - if you took away my Breton's magic, well then I'd be here fighting just as hard.
And that is the point we've been trying to make. Dilute it all you want with lore acrobatics or whatever, the answer I want is why it was necessary to remove the stealth reduction bonus in the first place. Because the answers we were given do not add up.6 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
Skill Bonuses:
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10
Specials:
Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
What about Oblivion?
Skills:
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits:
Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
Skryim?
Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.
So what words do Dunmer have for me?
The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
"Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.
Ok so summarizing for You certain race can only have those features that You can find are being described on paper. Fact that wood elfs spend their lives in forests and they also have one of the laws forcing them to hunt and they also have natural talent with the bows definietly is not making them good hunters right ? Also fact that wood elfs were not mentioned as a hunters in previous games is because there was no hunter playable class so there was no need for tracking skills in previous game so wood elf tracking skills could simply be not mentioned because at that time those skills were not needed for any playable playstyle. SO You have no poff that wood elfs are not better hunters then other races You just have proff that they're also better at hiding in forests.
Not head-canon, actual sources. Your theory crafting and 'if this then that so that means' is not the same as actual sources.
But let me see if I understand your reasoning: I am expected to accept losing a skill I can prove existed for a skill for which there is no proof of it ever existing because I can not provide proof of it not existing.Edited by Cundu_Ertur on February 21, 2019 3:45PMTaking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.5 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kalle_Demos wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
Skill Bonuses:
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10
Specials:
Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
What about Oblivion?
Skills:
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits:
Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
Skryim?
Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.
So what words do Dunmer have for me?
The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
"Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.
Fire Damage IS part of the Destruction School of Magic. Dunmer affinity for Elemental Damage is not new as your post points out and has been part of their identity for years. Only Alter match them in that regard and they too have bonuses to elemental damage in ESO.
Morrowind:
"The destruction skill is the mastery of the spell effects of the College of Destruction . Their spells harm living and unliving things, and include elemental damage , draining, damaging, vulnerability, and disintegration magical effects."
Oblivion:
Destruction is a magic arts skill that imbues the Hero with the ability to cast destructive spells that include fire spells, frost spells, shock spells, and weakness to fire, frost, and shock spells. It also allows the Hero to reduce damage from other magical attacks. The Skingrad Mages Guild specializes in Destruction. It is the most commonly used magic type for mages to defend themselves with.
Skyrim:
"The School of Destruction involves harnessing the energies of fire , frost and shock. This skill makes it easier to cast spells like Fireball, Ice Spike, and Lightning Bolt."
The complaint was the loss of bonus to fire damage. There has not been any bonus to fire damage in previous games, there was a bonus to destruction. The Dunmer got a bonus with all magic and weapon damage to replace the more limited and situational damage with fire (and much lower bonus with other elements.) The problem is that there is no 'destruction' skill line here. I know it's a bit of a stretch to say that destruction is the school of magic most centered around doing damage, so a flat bonus to doing damage with magic is close enough; but the way the mechanics work, I think it is a net boon to get the flat bonus to magic damage and not have it more situational on whatever elements are involved. Regardless, the bonus to ONLY fire damage was not lore-friendly. A more lore friendly approach would be a bonus to all elemental damage equally; but given the mechanics, I think the solution offered was ok-ish. Also note, Dunmer had a bonus to Mysticism, which also had some damage spells associated with it IIRC, at least in Morrowind.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.3 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
This. AP is not PVP only, it works for PVE rewards in Cyrodiil.Other races have also passives that will be useless for most of the time like for example dunmer lava dmg reduction. Even khajiit stealth passive wont be used for most of the time.
Key words. Most of the time. Stealth Detection is useless in PVE all the time. As in completely and totally without use.
What id I told You not every passive needs to be usefull in every type of content ? For example show me how breton 1% more AP is usefull in PvE. And before You'll try to advocate that those 1st passives are just not important memes wood elf have 10% fall dmg reduction there which is pretty handy in both PvE and PvP.
What if I told you not to assume my answer? I have stated in other comments that the only other passive that could be related to the "useless in anything but PVP" context is the Breton 1% AP gain. I agree with that - though I also think that technically it is useful in PVE because the PVE quests in Cyro and IC grant AP.
Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.2 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »I'm going to love when this patch goes live and the rest of the player base (the ones who don't follow PTS happenings) catches wind of the changes. ZOS will wish they listened to our feedback here. Or maybe I'm giving them too much credit and they'll just ignore that feedback too.
Or most players don't even care, because you might now, when you pick a race you have no clue about the racials you get.
You get a very vague description, that's it. I doubt that the overwhelming majority of players first enters the internet to check on racials before they start playing.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »I'm going to love when this patch goes live and the rest of the player base (the ones who don't follow PTS happenings) catches wind of the changes. ZOS will wish they listened to our feedback here. Or maybe I'm giving them too much credit and they'll just ignore that feedback too.
Or most players don't even care, because you might now, when you pick a race you have no clue about the racials you get.
You get a very vague description, that's it. I doubt that the overwhelming majority of players first enters the internet to check on racials before they start playing.
There's the people who came here out of Skyrim, Oblivion, etc. and they'll notice some of the stranger changes. And there's a significant number of people who are experienced with the other games. They will have chosen their races based on that previous gameplay.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.6 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other races have also passives that will be useless for most of the time like for example dunmer lava dmg reduction. Even khajiit stealth passive wont be used for most of the time.
Key words. Most of the time. Stealth Detection is useless in PVE all the time. As in completely and totally without use.
What id I told You not every passive needs to be usefull in every type of content ? For example show me how breton 1% more AP is usefull in PvE. And before You'll try to advocate that those 1st passives are just not important memes wood elf have 10% fall dmg reduction there which is pretty handy in both PvE and PvP.
What if I told you not to assume my answer? I have stated in other comments that the only other passive that could be related to the "useless in anything but PVP" context is the Breton 1% AP gain. I agree with that - though I also think that technically it is useful in PVE because the PVE quests in Cyro and IC grant AP.
But we're really going into the weeds here. 1% AP gain is not what I would consider a core racial identity. A Breton without AP Gain is pretty much still a Breton - if you took away my Breton's magic, well then I'd be here fighting just as hard.
And that is the point we've been trying to make. Dilute it all you want with lore acrobatics or whatever, the answer I want is why it was necessary to remove the stealth reduction bonus in the first place. Because the answers we were given do not add up.
By that logic wood elf stealth detection is still usefull in PvE because of that few overland mobs that are going into stealth when the fight starts to cast a spell from stealth.0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
Skill Bonuses:
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10
Specials:
Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
What about Oblivion?
Skills:
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits:
Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
Skryim?
Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.
So what words do Dunmer have for me?
The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
"Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.
Ok so summarizing for You certain race can only have those features that You can find are being described on paper. Fact that wood elfs spend their lives in forests and they also have one of the laws forcing them to hunt and they also have natural talent with the bows definietly is not making them good hunters right ? Also fact that wood elfs were not mentioned as a hunters in previous games is because there was no hunter playable class so there was no need for tracking skills in previous game so wood elf tracking skills could simply be not mentioned because at that time those skills were not needed for any playable playstyle. SO You have no poff that wood elfs are not better hunters then other races You just have proff that they're also better at hiding in forests.
Not head-canon, actual sources. Your theory crafting and 'if this then that so that means' is not the same as actual sources.
But let me see if I understand your reasoning: I am expected to accept losing a skill I can prove existed for a skill for which there is no proof of it ever existing because I can not provide proof of it not existing.
My theory crafting is excatly the same as Yours. We both assume certain things based on available informations You are just the one who have issues with admiting that.
Also seriously when You say "actual sources" that starts to sound like You would talk about actual real world history not fake lore created by people and still opened to interpretetion , changes and additions. But yeah when it comes to real world history there is many things we dont know based on actual sources and we may never know about those things which doesnt mean those things were not existing. Wood elf being better at stealth detection the stealth few hundereds years before single player games may be one of those things.Edited by Juhasow on February 21, 2019 5:36PM0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »I'm going to love when this patch goes live and the rest of the player base (the ones who don't follow PTS happenings) catches wind of the changes. ZOS will wish they listened to our feedback here. Or maybe I'm giving them too much credit and they'll just ignore that feedback too.
Or most players don't even care, because you might now, when you pick a race you have no clue about the racials you get.
You get a very vague description, that's it. I doubt that the overwhelming majority of players first enters the internet to check on racials before they start playing.
There's the people who came here out of Skyrim, Oblivion, etc. and they'll notice some of the stranger changes. And there's a significant number of people who are experienced with the other games. They will have chosen their races based on that previous gameplay.
Stamina passives on an Altmer or no stealth passives on a Breton will have anyone coming from another TES game scratching their heads.3 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »I'm going to love when this patch goes live and the rest of the player base (the ones who don't follow PTS happenings) catches wind of the changes. ZOS will wish they listened to our feedback here. Or maybe I'm giving them too much credit and they'll just ignore that feedback too.
Or most players don't even care, because you might now, when you pick a race you have no clue about the racials you get.
You get a very vague description, that's it. I doubt that the overwhelming majority of players first enters the internet to check on racials before they start playing.
There's the people who came here out of Skyrim, Oblivion, etc. and they'll notice some of the stranger changes. And there's a significant number of people who are experienced with the other games. They will have chosen their races based on that previous gameplay.
After 5 years? I don't think that it still matters. I doubt there will be the huge wave of complain threads or an uproar in the forums as some expect but we'll see next week.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
anadandy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭By that logic wood elf stealth detection is still usefull in PvE because of that few overland mobs that are going into stealth when the fight starts to cast a spell from stealth.
What overland mobs stealth? Some NB NPCs cloak and then ambush - but they are clearly visible before hand and the cloak is telegraphed. No overland mob starts out in stealth (as in, sit there stealthed just lurking and waiting for the PC to arrive) and therefore need to be detected by a stealth detection option (be it potions, magelight, whatever). The devs admitted this themselves.
4 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »I'm going to love when this patch goes live and the rest of the player base (the ones who don't follow PTS happenings) catches wind of the changes. ZOS will wish they listened to our feedback here. Or maybe I'm giving them too much credit and they'll just ignore that feedback too.
Or most players don't even care, because you might now, when you pick a race you have no clue about the racials you get.
You get a very vague description, that's it. I doubt that the overwhelming majority of players first enters the internet to check on racials before they start playing.
There's the people who came here out of Skyrim, Oblivion, etc. and they'll notice some of the stranger changes. And there's a significant number of people who are experienced with the other games. They will have chosen their races based on that previous gameplay.
After 5 years? I don't think that it still matters. I doubt there will be the huge wave of complain threads or an uproar in the forums as some expect but we'll see next week.
Skyrim Super Mega Cool Graphics Edition just dropped a couple years back; and more recently came out for the first Nintendo platform, ever; and more recently than that came out for Alexa (or Siri, or Cortana or one of those talky chatbot things). It'll drop soon for our smart appliances, apparently, though I guess that's still in beta.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.3 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
Skill Bonuses:
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10
Specials:
Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
What about Oblivion?
Skills:
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits:
Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
Skryim?
Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.
So what words do Dunmer have for me?
The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
"Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.
Ok so summarizing for You certain race can only have those features that You can find are being described on paper. Fact that wood elfs spend their lives in forests and they also have one of the laws forcing them to hunt and they also have natural talent with the bows definietly is not making them good hunters right ? Also fact that wood elfs were not mentioned as a hunters in previous games is because there was no hunter playable class so there was no need for tracking skills in previous game so wood elf tracking skills could simply be not mentioned because at that time those skills were not needed for any playable playstyle. SO You have no poff that wood elfs are not better hunters then other races You just have proff that they're also better at hiding in forests.
Not head-canon, actual sources. Your theory crafting and 'if this then that so that means' is not the same as actual sources.
But let me see if I understand your reasoning: I am expected to accept losing a skill I can prove existed for a skill for which there is no proof of it ever existing because I can not provide proof of it not existing.
My theory crafting is excatly the same as Yours. We both assume certain things based on available informations You are just the one who have issues with admiting that.
Also seriously when You say "actual sources" that starts to sound like You would talk about actual real world history not fake lore created by people and still opened to interpretetion , changes and additions. But yeah when it comes to real world history there is many things we dont know based on actual sources and we may never know about those things which doesnt mean those things were not existing. Wood elf being better at stealth detection the stealth few hundereds years before single player games may be one of those things.
Um, no. A chain of "if this then that's" is not at all the same as "this says." I have "this says." You have "if this then that's." What it seems to me that you're saying is that since Nords drink a lot of mead, and alcohol is a poison, then Nords must be immune to poison. There's actually a name for this, where the application of logic to a fact results in a laughably wrong conclusion, but I am too lazy to look it up and I need to get in game to knock out a daily or two before work.
Also, the whole point of an RPG is to assume the world the game is in is real.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.6 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
Stamina regen on altmer make no sense3 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
Skill Bonuses:
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10
Specials:
Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
What about Oblivion?
Skills:
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits:
Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
Skryim?
Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.
So what words do Dunmer have for me?
The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
"Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.
Ok so summarizing for You certain race can only have those features that You can find are being described on paper. Fact that wood elfs spend their lives in forests and they also have one of the laws forcing them to hunt and they also have natural talent with the bows definietly is not making them good hunters right ? Also fact that wood elfs were not mentioned as a hunters in previous games is because there was no hunter playable class so there was no need for tracking skills in previous game so wood elf tracking skills could simply be not mentioned because at that time those skills were not needed for any playable playstyle. SO You have no poff that wood elfs are not better hunters then other races You just have proff that they're also better at hiding in forests.
Not head-canon, actual sources. Your theory crafting and 'if this then that so that means' is not the same as actual sources.
But let me see if I understand your reasoning: I am expected to accept losing a skill I can prove existed for a skill for which there is no proof of it ever existing because I can not provide proof of it not existing.
My theory crafting is excatly the same as Yours. We both assume certain things based on available informations You are just the one who have issues with admiting that.
Also seriously when You say "actual sources" that starts to sound like You would talk about actual real world history not fake lore created by people and still opened to interpretetion , changes and additions. But yeah when it comes to real world history there is many things we dont know based on actual sources and we may never know about those things which doesnt mean those things were not existing. Wood elf being better at stealth detection the stealth few hundereds years before single player games may be one of those things.
Um, no. A chain of "if this then that's" is not at all the same as "this says." I have "this says." You have "if this then that's." What it seems to me that you're saying is that since Nords drink a lot of mead, and alcohol is a poison, then Nords must be immune to poison. There's actually a name for this, where the application of logic to a fact results in a laughably wrong conclusion, but I am too lazy to look it up and I need to get in game to knock out a daily or two before work.
Also, the whole point of an RPG is to assume the world the game is in is real.
There is no arguing logic with that idiot. He’s intentionally bein stupid because he flat out knows he’s wrong and an idiot will never man up and admit their mistakes.
A facet of Bosmer’s core identity from decades of lore is being thrown out the window on a whim. The new passive is 100% useless in all content, it has no application in PvE and at no point in PvP will that extra detection range help you win a fight.
It was a *** change and whoever made it needs to be fired from the combat team and stuck to janatorial duties. Actually, no, because all they know how to do is make a mess out of things.6 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
Skill Bonuses:
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10
Specials:
Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
What about Oblivion?
Skills:
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits:
Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
Skryim?
Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.
So what words do Dunmer have for me?
The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
"Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.
Ok so summarizing for You certain race can only have those features that You can find are being described on paper. Fact that wood elfs spend their lives in forests and they also have one of the laws forcing them to hunt and they also have natural talent with the bows definietly is not making them good hunters right ? Also fact that wood elfs were not mentioned as a hunters in previous games is because there was no hunter playable class so there was no need for tracking skills in previous game so wood elf tracking skills could simply be not mentioned because at that time those skills were not needed for any playable playstyle. SO You have no poff that wood elfs are not better hunters then other races You just have proff that they're also better at hiding in forests.
Not head-canon, actual sources. Your theory crafting and 'if this then that so that means' is not the same as actual sources.
But let me see if I understand your reasoning: I am expected to accept losing a skill I can prove existed for a skill for which there is no proof of it ever existing because I can not provide proof of it not existing.
My theory crafting is excatly the same as Yours. We both assume certain things based on available informations You are just the one who have issues with admiting that.
Also seriously when You say "actual sources" that starts to sound like You would talk about actual real world history not fake lore created by people and still opened to interpretetion , changes and additions. But yeah when it comes to real world history there is many things we dont know based on actual sources and we may never know about those things which doesnt mean those things were not existing. Wood elf being better at stealth detection the stealth few hundereds years before single player games may be one of those things.
Um, no. A chain of "if this then that's" is not at all the same as "this says." I have "this says." You have "if this then that's." What it seems to me that you're saying is that since Nords drink a lot of mead, and alcohol is a poison, then Nords must be immune to poison. There's actually a name for this, where the application of logic to a fact results in a laughably wrong conclusion, but I am too lazy to look it up and I need to get in game to knock out a daily or two before work.
Also, the whole point of an RPG is to assume the world the game is in is real.
[snip]
A facet of Bosmer’s core identity from decades of lore is being thrown out the window on a whim. The new passive is 100% useless in all content, it has no application in PvE and at no point in PvP will that extra detection range help you win a fight.
It was a *** change and whoever made it needs to be fired from the combat team and stuck to janatorial duties. Actually, no, because all they know how to do is make a mess out of things.
While I agree with you completely with regards to the change, insults will not help and will only get you modded or banned. I'm frustrated, we're all frustrated, but we don't need to go there. I would suggest removing the bit I snipped from the quote.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.4 -
Kalle_Demos✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »The complaint was the loss of bonus to fire damage. There has not been any bonus to fire damage in previous games, there was a bonus to destruction. The Dunmer got a bonus with all magic and weapon damage to replace the more limited and situational damage with fire (and much lower bonus with other elements.) The problem is that there is no 'destruction' skill line here. I know it's a bit of a stretch to say that destruction is the school of magic most centered around doing damage, so a flat bonus to doing damage with magic is close enough; but the way the mechanics work, I think it is a net boon to get the flat bonus to magic damage and not have it more situational on whatever elements are involved. Regardless, the bonus to ONLY fire damage was not lore-friendly. A more lore friendly approach would be a bonus to all elemental damage equally; but given the mechanics, I think the solution offered was ok-ish. Also note, Dunmer had a bonus to Mysticism, which also had some damage spells associated with it IIRC, at least in Morrowind.
Dunmer do not only have bonuses to Fire Damage they have bonuses to all elemental damage. Fire spikes above the others in the context of ESO because of how the different elements have different mechanics with Fire being primarily for damage. Dunmer are geared towards damage dealing, their stats across the other games reflects that and in ESO the dynamic, the balance between Dunmer and Altmer sustain offered a choice between the two.
As someone else on the forum said "Trade offs equal more balance". In my opinion Dunmer should get their elemental bonuses back because not only are they part of their Racial Identity they are what set them apart from the other Mag DPS. Altmer should also be rid of the ridiculous 'spell' charge passive and receive Mag sustain balanced in a way to not offset Breton. A dynamic looking something like: Breton - Sustain. Altmer - Damage/Sustain balance. Dunmer - Damage. With not one surpassing the other.
That way there would be trade offs between the three with each bringing something unique and fun to the table. Anyway meant to express to the other poster that Dunmer Elemental Damage was not brand new and shouldn't be used as a justification for the indefensible crimes inflicted upon Bosmer.
"If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn1 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
Skill Bonuses:
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10
Specials:
Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
What about Oblivion?
Skills:
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits:
Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
Skryim?
Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.
So what words do Dunmer have for me?
The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
"Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.
Ok so summarizing for You certain race can only have those features that You can find are being described on paper. Fact that wood elfs spend their lives in forests and they also have one of the laws forcing them to hunt and they also have natural talent with the bows definietly is not making them good hunters right ? Also fact that wood elfs were not mentioned as a hunters in previous games is because there was no hunter playable class so there was no need for tracking skills in previous game so wood elf tracking skills could simply be not mentioned because at that time those skills were not needed for any playable playstyle. SO You have no poff that wood elfs are not better hunters then other races You just have proff that they're also better at hiding in forests.
Not head-canon, actual sources. Your theory crafting and 'if this then that so that means' is not the same as actual sources.
But let me see if I understand your reasoning: I am expected to accept losing a skill I can prove existed for a skill for which there is no proof of it ever existing because I can not provide proof of it not existing.
My theory crafting is excatly the same as Yours. We both assume certain things based on available informations You are just the one who have issues with admiting that.
Also seriously when You say "actual sources" that starts to sound like You would talk about actual real world history not fake lore created by people and still opened to interpretetion , changes and additions. But yeah when it comes to real world history there is many things we dont know based on actual sources and we may never know about those things which doesnt mean those things were not existing. Wood elf being better at stealth detection the stealth few hundereds years before single player games may be one of those things.
Um, no. A chain of "if this then that's" is not at all the same as "this says." I have "this says." You have "if this then that's." What it seems to me that you're saying is that since Nords drink a lot of mead, and alcohol is a poison, then Nords must be immune to poison. There's actually a name for this, where the application of logic to a fact results in a laughably wrong conclusion, but I am too lazy to look it up and I need to get in game to knock out a daily or two before work.
Also, the whole point of an RPG is to assume the world the game is in is real.
[snip]
A facet of Bosmer’s core identity from decades of lore is being thrown out the window on a whim. The new passive is 100% useless in all content, it has no application in PvE and at no point in PvP will that extra detection range help you win a fight.
It was a *** change and whoever made it needs to be fired from the combat team and stuck to janatorial duties. Actually, no, because all they know how to do is make a mess out of things.
While I agree with you completely with regards to the change, insults will not help and will only get you modded or banned. I'm frustrated, we're all frustrated, but we don't need to go there. I would suggest removing the bit I snipped from the quote.
There’s no other more accurate word for intentionally disregarding
1) lore
2) game mechanics established by all the past games
3) ESO’s own, 5 year old racial mechanics of Bosmer
Like come on, how long are we gonna let people get away with that sort of nonsense? How much whiteknighting for ZOS’s incompetence is too much?5 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
Skill Bonuses:
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10
Specials:
Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
What about Oblivion?
Skills:
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits:
Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
Skryim?
Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.
So what words do Dunmer have for me?
The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
"Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.
Ok so summarizing for You certain race can only have those features that You can find are being described on paper. Fact that wood elfs spend their lives in forests and they also have one of the laws forcing them to hunt and they also have natural talent with the bows definietly is not making them good hunters right ? Also fact that wood elfs were not mentioned as a hunters in previous games is because there was no hunter playable class so there was no need for tracking skills in previous game so wood elf tracking skills could simply be not mentioned because at that time those skills were not needed for any playable playstyle. SO You have no poff that wood elfs are not better hunters then other races You just have proff that they're also better at hiding in forests.
Not head-canon, actual sources. Your theory crafting and 'if this then that so that means' is not the same as actual sources.
But let me see if I understand your reasoning: I am expected to accept losing a skill I can prove existed for a skill for which there is no proof of it ever existing because I can not provide proof of it not existing.
My theory crafting is excatly the same as Yours. We both assume certain things based on available informations You are just the one who have issues with admiting that.
Also seriously when You say "actual sources" that starts to sound like You would talk about actual real world history not fake lore created by people and still opened to interpretetion , changes and additions. But yeah when it comes to real world history there is many things we dont know based on actual sources and we may never know about those things which doesnt mean those things were not existing. Wood elf being better at stealth detection the stealth few hundereds years before single player games may be one of those things.
Um, no. A chain of "if this then that's" is not at all the same as "this says." I have "this says." You have "if this then that's." What it seems to me that you're saying is that since Nords drink a lot of mead, and alcohol is a poison, then Nords must be immune to poison. There's actually a name for this, where the application of logic to a fact results in a laughably wrong conclusion, but I am too lazy to look it up and I need to get in game to knock out a daily or two before work.
Also, the whole point of an RPG is to assume the world the game is in is real.
Well if You the point of an RPG is to assume the world in it is real then You would also apply some basic real world logic into it and if fact that certain race living in the forests , talented with bows , having sacred laws forcing them to hunt is not ringing the bell that members of that race can be talented hunters then sorry but You're the one that is failing at logic. You're saying that my logic is "if this then that" which is silly try to simplify my logic when trying to glorify Yours but Your logic is also based on assumptions. How do You know for examples those books You quote from the lore are telling full story ? You just assume they're.
Wood elf culture have all requirements needed to have great hunters and there are real life proves for that , final proves that You cannot undermine. Just look at history of every tribe on the earth living in the dense forests. All of them had great hunters with excellent tracking skillls. All of them no exceptions. Meanwhile You want to tell me that for some reason wood elfs that are also obedient to their sacred laws of green pact forcing them to eat meat based products only which can be literally translated into "go and hunt" are not greater hunters then other races. Just wow. You preffer to give some book that some game creator made up for the need of one of the previous games , as an evidence without even acknowleging the context of it. Like seriously it's hilarious that someone could not think about wood elfs are great hunters. I am actually thankfull to ZoS that they finally acknowledged that obvious thing and put it officially as a part of the lore since it was obviously missing and making wood elf race incomplete.0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
Skill Bonuses:
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10
Specials:
Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
What about Oblivion?
Skills:
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits:
Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
Skryim?
Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.
So what words do Dunmer have for me?
The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
"Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.
Ok so summarizing for You certain race can only have those features that You can find are being described on paper. Fact that wood elfs spend their lives in forests and they also have one of the laws forcing them to hunt and they also have natural talent with the bows definietly is not making them good hunters right ? Also fact that wood elfs were not mentioned as a hunters in previous games is because there was no hunter playable class so there was no need for tracking skills in previous game so wood elf tracking skills could simply be not mentioned because at that time those skills were not needed for any playable playstyle. SO You have no poff that wood elfs are not better hunters then other races You just have proff that they're also better at hiding in forests.
Not head-canon, actual sources. Your theory crafting and 'if this then that so that means' is not the same as actual sources.
But let me see if I understand your reasoning: I am expected to accept losing a skill I can prove existed for a skill for which there is no proof of it ever existing because I can not provide proof of it not existing.
My theory crafting is excatly the same as Yours. We both assume certain things based on available informations You are just the one who have issues with admiting that.
Also seriously when You say "actual sources" that starts to sound like You would talk about actual real world history not fake lore created by people and still opened to interpretetion , changes and additions. But yeah when it comes to real world history there is many things we dont know based on actual sources and we may never know about those things which doesnt mean those things were not existing. Wood elf being better at stealth detection the stealth few hundereds years before single player games may be one of those things.
Um, no. A chain of "if this then that's" is not at all the same as "this says." I have "this says." You have "if this then that's." What it seems to me that you're saying is that since Nords drink a lot of mead, and alcohol is a poison, then Nords must be immune to poison. There's actually a name for this, where the application of logic to a fact results in a laughably wrong conclusion, but I am too lazy to look it up and I need to get in game to knock out a daily or two before work.
Also, the whole point of an RPG is to assume the world the game is in is real.
Well if You the point of an RPG is to assume the world in it is real then You would also apply some basic real world logic into it and if fact that certain race living in the forests , talented with bows , having sacred laws forcing them to hunt is not ringing the bell that members of that race can be talented hunters then sorry but You're the one that is failing at logic. You're saying that my logic is "if this then that" which is silly try to simplify my logic when trying to glorify Yours but Your logic is also based on assumptions. How do You know for examples those books You quote from the lore are telling full story ? You just assume they're.
Wood elf culture have all requirements needed to have great hunters and there are real life proves for that , final proves that You cannot undermine. Just look at history of every tribe on the earth living in the dense forests. All of them had great hunters with excellent tracking skillls. All of them no exceptions. Meanwhile You want to tell me that for some reason wood elfs that are also obedient to their sacred laws of green pact forcing them to eat meat based products only which can be literally translated into "go and hunt" are not greater hunters then other races. Just wow. You preffer to give some book that some game creator made up for the need of one of the previous games , as an evidence without even acknowleging the context of it. Like seriously it's hilarious that someone could not think about wood elfs are great hunters. I am actually thankfull to ZoS that they finally acknowledged that obvious thing and put it officially as a part of the lore since it was obviously missing and making wood elf race incomplete.
It is literally impossible to be a good hunter without excellent stealth skills. Prey that sees, smells, or heard you coming will not stick around to be slain. That matters far, far more in hunting, than being able to literally see the prey.
I don’t know what sort of personal beef you have with Bosmer, but you’re blinded by your own inability to look at the objective facts established across every game’s mechanics AND lore, and you don’t even adhere to simple “real-world” logic you’re insisting means Bosmer have sharper eyesight than anyone else. Their culture and religion is built around efficient hunting, for which stealth is required, having to locate an animal that actively sneaks (of which there are next to none) is not, because prey animals almost always flee. They don’t linger in an area with predators.2 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.Seraphayel wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.
If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.
"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?
In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?
Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.
I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.
You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.
I want to know what that is based on.
I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.
I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)
Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.
Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.
There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.
So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.
And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.
Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.
And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?
I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.
Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?
They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?
They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?
No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.
"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."
"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.
Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.
Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.
Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.
When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.
So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?
No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.
Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?
Here is some “context” for you:
Morrowind
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.
Oblivion
Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.
Skyrim
Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit
Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:
Morrowind
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Oblivion
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
Skyrim
Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.
•••
Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.
Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.
Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.
And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)
That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".
Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?
As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.
I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.
I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.
Since they have this, it means they need that, which means this other thing...
So, yeah, after a chain of 'if this means..' you can get there with detection. That Bosmer are straight up stealthy is directly out of the lore, and directly out of the design, play, manuals, and game guides from all of the previous games. No chain of deduction required. But I'm the one making a leap and being stupid. Whatever. Have a nice life.
Yeah. Not like any in game race description or book ever describe the Bosmer as being great scouts.
Morrowind
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Hmmm... No "Scouting"or eyesight bonuses... Thats odd.
Oblivion
Bosmer Attriibutes;
Skill Modifier
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Still nothing... Weird...
Skyrim
Bosmer skill bonuses
+10 Archery (25)
+5 Alchemy (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 Lockpicking (20)
+5 Pickpocket (20)
+5 Sneak (20)
What no eyesight bonuses???!!! You mean they SEE as well as any other race (Except kahjits who have night vision, but does not count as having over all better vision even though the modifier directly gives them having BETTER vision)???? How can this be!!!!???? They are so good at scouting which automatically means amazing eyesight and nothing else right? Scouting could not mean moving around unseen or anything. And these sneak modifiers? What are they doing there??? Obviously they mean to say eyesight not sneak. /Sarcasm
So your argument is that since Bosmer never had a eyesight bonus before they shouldn't have one now? The people who want the fire damage back on Dunmer would like to have a word with you.
Besides, how does any of that show that the stealth detection passive is lore breaking?
Let's see, dunmer in Morrowind:
Skill Bonuses:
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10
Specials:
Power: Ancestor Guardian - Sanctuary Sanctuary 50pts for 60sec on self
Ability: Resist Fire Resist Fire 75%
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
What about Oblivion?
Skills:
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism
Traits:
Ancestor Guardian greater power (FormID 00047AD5): Summon Ancestor Guardian for 60 seconds on self, once per day
Dark Elf Fire Resistance ability (FormID 00047AD4): Resist Fire 75% on Self, constant
Wow, no bonus to fire damage.
Skryim?
Wait, they get a once-per-day free flame cloak spell in Skyrim. Otherwise, no bonus to fire damage.
So what words do Dunmer have for me?
The stealth detection passive INSTEAD OF a stealth bonus is lore breaking because Bosmer have always had stealth. They have never had detection. Ever. At all.
Provide one lore source that Bosmer have extraordinary detection abilities. I can provide that for Orcs, BTW, but do not know of any for Bosmer. I can provide lore sources that Bosmer were so good at hiding that Imperials called it 'forest coupling.' Two sources for that. I can provide lore sources for the 'Thousand Benefits of Hiding.' Two sources for that. I can provide sources for the Rite of Theft, several in fact. Tell me the game where Bosmer had 'hunter' as a recommended class. Heck, tell me the game where 'hunter' was even a playable class. Scout, yes, every game, and only in Oblivion did that not have sneak as a class skill. But also thief. Every game. No exception. Even the early games where races didn't get skill buff, Bosmer had 'thief' as the primary suggested playstyle. Stealth is essential for being a thief. Detection is useless. Detection is a guard skill. Bosmer are not guards. They have never been guards. It is crap to try to turn them into guards, and THAT is why this is contrary to lore.That is a false equivalent, Bosmer are known for being great scouts, hunters and agents. All of these roles require some level of both sneaking and tracking skills. Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking, right? Now they only have the tracking side and that makes it lore breaking? The real issue is that the stealth detection is both useless and boring but it is not against the lore.
"Bosmer had only the sneaking part before but that was not lore breaking," BECAUSE THAT'S THE LORE. That they have the sneaking part IS THE LORE. The whole detection garbage thing IS COMPLETELY NEW.
Ok so summarizing for You certain race can only have those features that You can find are being described on paper. Fact that wood elfs spend their lives in forests and they also have one of the laws forcing them to hunt and they also have natural talent with the bows definietly is not making them good hunters right ? Also fact that wood elfs were not mentioned as a hunters in previous games is because there was no hunter playable class so there was no need for tracking skills in previous game so wood elf tracking skills could simply be not mentioned because at that time those skills were not needed for any playable playstyle. SO You have no poff that wood elfs are not better hunters then other races You just have proff that they're also better at hiding in forests.
Not head-canon, actual sources. Your theory crafting and 'if this then that so that means' is not the same as actual sources.
But let me see if I understand your reasoning: I am expected to accept losing a skill I can prove existed for a skill for which there is no proof of it ever existing because I can not provide proof of it not existing.
My theory crafting is excatly the same as Yours. We both assume certain things based on available informations You are just the one who have issues with admiting that.
Also seriously when You say "actual sources" that starts to sound like You would talk about actual real world history not fake lore created by people and still opened to interpretetion , changes and additions. But yeah when it comes to real world history there is many things we dont know based on actual sources and we may never know about those things which doesnt mean those things were not existing. Wood elf being better at stealth detection the stealth few hundereds years before single player games may be one of those things.
Um, no. A chain of "if this then that's" is not at all the same as "this says." I have "this says." You have "if this then that's." What it seems to me that you're saying is that since Nords drink a lot of mead, and alcohol is a poison, then Nords must be immune to poison. There's actually a name for this, where the application of logic to a fact results in a laughably wrong conclusion, but I am too lazy to look it up and I need to get in game to knock out a daily or two before work.
Also, the whole point of an RPG is to assume the world the game is in is real.
Well if You the point of an RPG is to assume the world in it is real then You would also apply some basic real world logic into it and if fact that certain race living in the forests , talented with bows , having sacred laws forcing them to hunt is not ringing the bell that members of that race can be talented hunters then sorry but You're the one that is failing at logic. You're saying that my logic is "if this then that" which is silly try to simplify my logic when trying to glorify Yours but Your logic is also based on assumptions. How do You know for examples those books You quote from the lore are telling full story ? You just assume they're.
Wood elf culture have all requirements needed to have great hunters and there are real life proves for that , final proves that You cannot undermine. Just look at history of every tribe on the earth living in the dense forests. All of them had great hunters with excellent tracking skillls. All of them no exceptions. Meanwhile You want to tell me that for some reason wood elfs that are also obedient to their sacred laws of green pact forcing them to eat meat based products only which can be literally translated into "go and hunt" are not greater hunters then other races. Just wow. You preffer to give some book that some game creator made up for the need of one of the previous games , as an evidence without even acknowleging the context of it. Like seriously it's hilarious that someone could not think about wood elfs are great hunters. I am actually thankfull to ZoS that they finally acknowledged that obvious thing and put it officially as a part of the lore since it was obviously missing and making wood elf race incomplete.
It is literally impossible to be a good hunter without excellent stealth skills. Prey that sees, smells, or heard you coming will not stick around to be slain. That matters far, far more in hunting, than being able to literally see the prey.
I don’t know what sort of personal beef you have with Bosmer, but you’re blinded by your own inability to look at the objective facts established across every game’s mechanics AND lore, and you don’t even adhere to simple “real-world” logic you’re insisting means Bosmer have sharper eyesight than anyone else. Their culture and religion is built around efficient hunting, for which stealth is required, having to locate an animal that actively sneaks (of which there are next to none) is not, because prey animals almost always flee. They don’t linger in an area with predators.
Is it ? It's not like hunters are sneaking behind the back of their prey with the dagger or something. Yes hunters need some level of stealth but I wouldnt call it an excellent level. They use bows a ranged weapon to actually not be forced to come too close so they can shoot from the distance that wont give away their position. That distance allows them to better blend in which lowers the need for excellent stealth capabilities. As for smell every hunter knows that You need to aproach prey from the side opposite to the flow of the air to eliminate the risk of being sniffed out. Hunting with the ranged weapon also helps with reducing possibility of being sniffed out. As for the hearing well this is where bow also becomes handy because larger distance also lowers possiblity of being heared. As You can see bosmer natural talent with the bow literally gives them head start to be great hunters. From that perspective khajiits deserves more to get stealth passive in ESO because they already have 5% pickpocket chance so better stealth is in line with being good at pickpocketing same as good tracking skills are in line with mastery of bow. Stealth detection is the closets thing ZoS can put in the game that would reflect great tracking skills.
I do not have any personal beef with bosmer I just consider stealth detection to be reasonable passive for that race and You know , it's my opinion same as You have Yours so using term "objective" when it comes to opinions is kinda sily. Ther is no "objective facts established accros every's game mechanics and LORE". All those things are subjective , made up by someone and left to interpretation and possible changes/additions. Objective fact would be that for example certain battle happened at certain date but who is good at what is totally subjective and based on who is judging because "good" or "bad" are subjective terms. I do not say bomser have better eyesight I never said anything close to that and actualy great eyesight isnt that usefull at tracking. Amazonian tribes of indians for example have the same eyesight as You or me yet somehow they would be able to locate Your position even if You would find great spot and perfectly camouflage Yourself when in opposite situation You would've never found them and it's not because they are that extremly great at hiding but because You lack knowledge of how to track someone in hide. The only thing I said about eyesight previoulsy was debunking the myth that khajiits should've great eyesight because of "cat eyes".Actualy there is plenty of animals that developed some kind of camouflage or basic techniques of blending in to avoid predators which hunters also are. Especially in dense forests it's not that easy to notice a predator coming so those animals developed mechanisms that makes it harder for predators to notice them because sometimes it can be too late for fleeing. Fleeing in also not always most efficient way of protecting Yourself. I think You watched too much leapord vs antelope documents but that things happen at open space where prey dont risk breaking its legs while running away between all the tree roots , branches and bushes.Edited by Juhasow on February 22, 2019 2:18AM1