Dissapointed with the final patch

martijnlv40

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

This is factually incorrect. There is not the slightest shred of lore to support improved detection for the Bosmer. That Bosmer are hunters is irrelevant because EVERY RACE HAS HUNTERS. On the other hand, Bosmers have been consistently defined by three things, in lore and in previous games: the Green Pact, Archery, and Stealth. Not stealth detection, but actual 'able to hide better' stealth. As Raven mentions, Khajiit have always had a detection ability (in Morrowind and Oblivion, as well as Skyrim) called Night Eye. So if any race should be crippled with the detection ability, it should be them. Not that I've ever called for that, I wouldn't wish this useless bucket of slop on my worst enemy.

The thing is, this was a solution to a problem that never existed. That Bosmer and Khajiit shared the same stealth passive was never a problem from a lore standpoint. They came from the same original people. The original elves of Valenwood either followed Y'ffre into the Green Pact and became Bosmer, or followed Azura and became Khajiit. So for them to share some racial traits is entirely understandable.

Not really ESO related, but your understanding on the Khajiit as a race is incorrect. They were present on Tamriel even before the Aldmer came to Summerset. I believe that can be found in a story on Topal the Pilot or something. Though it may change with the lore (hopefully) coming to ESO with Elsweyr.

Cundu_Ertur

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

This is factually incorrect. There is not the slightest shred of lore to support improved detection for the Bosmer. That Bosmer are hunters is irrelevant because EVERY RACE HAS HUNTERS. On the other hand, Bosmers have been consistently defined by three things, in lore and in previous games: the Green Pact, Archery, and Stealth. Not stealth detection, but actual 'able to hide better' stealth. As Raven mentions, Khajiit have always had a detection ability (in Morrowind and Oblivion, as well as Skyrim) called Night Eye. So if any race should be crippled with the detection ability, it should be them. Not that I've ever called for that, I wouldn't wish this useless bucket of slop on my worst enemy.

The thing is, this was a solution to a problem that never existed. That Bosmer and Khajiit shared the same stealth passive was never a problem from a lore standpoint. They came from the same original people. The original elves of Valenwood either followed Y'ffre into the Green Pact and became Bosmer, or followed Azura and became Khajiit. So for them to share some racial traits is entirely understandable.

Not really ESO related, but your understanding on the Khajiit as a race is incorrect. They were present on Tamriel even before the Aldmer came to Summerset. I believe that can be found in a story on Topal the Pilot or something. Though it may change with the lore (hopefully) coming to ESO with Elsweyr.

And Azurah came to her and said, "Poor Nirni, stop your tears. Azurah makes for you a gift of a new people." Nirni stopped weeping, and Azurah spoke the First Secret to the Moons and they parted and let Azurah pass. And Azurah took some forest people who were torn between man and beast, and she placed them in the best deserts and forests on Nirni. And Azurah in her wisdom made them of many shapes, one for every purpose. And Azurah named them Khajiit and told them her Second Secret and taught them the value of secrets. And Azurah bound the new Khajiit to the Lunar Lattice, as is proper for Nirni's secret defenders. Then Azurah spoke the Third Secret, and the Moons shone down on the marshes and their light became sugar.

But Y'ffer heard the First Secret and snuck in behind Azurah. And Y'ffer could not appreciate secrets, and he told Nirni of Azurah's trick. So Nirni made the deserts hot and the sands biting. And Nirni made the forests wet and filled with poisons. And Nirni thanked Y'ffer and let him change the forest people also. And Y'ffer did not have Azurah's subtle wisdom, so Y'ffer made the forest people Elves always and never beasts. And Y'ffer named them Bosmer. And from that moment they were no longer in the same litter as the Khajiit.

Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi


Also, Topal was in the middle of the Merethic era, the Pact and birth of the Khajiit are both from the Dawn era, which came before. There is no inconsistency.

martijnlv40

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

This is factually incorrect. There is not the slightest shred of lore to support improved detection for the Bosmer. That Bosmer are hunters is irrelevant because EVERY RACE HAS HUNTERS. On the other hand, Bosmers have been consistently defined by three things, in lore and in previous games: the Green Pact, Archery, and Stealth. Not stealth detection, but actual 'able to hide better' stealth. As Raven mentions, Khajiit have always had a detection ability (in Morrowind and Oblivion, as well as Skyrim) called Night Eye. So if any race should be crippled with the detection ability, it should be them. Not that I've ever called for that, I wouldn't wish this useless bucket of slop on my worst enemy.

The thing is, this was a solution to a problem that never existed. That Bosmer and Khajiit shared the same stealth passive was never a problem from a lore standpoint. They came from the same original people. The original elves of Valenwood either followed Y'ffre into the Green Pact and became Bosmer, or followed Azura and became Khajiit. So for them to share some racial traits is entirely understandable.

Not really ESO related, but your understanding on the Khajiit as a race is incorrect. They were present on Tamriel even before the Aldmer came to Summerset. I believe that can be found in a story on Topal the Pilot or something. Though it may change with the lore (hopefully) coming to ESO with Elsweyr.

And Azurah came to her and said, "Poor Nirni, stop your tears. Azurah makes for you a gift of a new people." Nirni stopped weeping, and Azurah spoke the First Secret to the Moons and they parted and let Azurah pass. And Azurah took some forest people who were torn between man and beast, and she placed them in the best deserts and forests on Nirni. And Azurah in her wisdom made them of many shapes, one for every purpose. And Azurah named them Khajiit and told them her Second Secret and taught them the value of secrets. And Azurah bound the new Khajiit to the Lunar Lattice, as is proper for Nirni's secret defenders. Then Azurah spoke the Third Secret, and the Moons shone down on the marshes and their light became sugar.

But Y'ffer heard the First Secret and snuck in behind Azurah. And Y'ffer could not appreciate secrets, and he told Nirni of Azurah's trick. So Nirni made the deserts hot and the sands biting. And Nirni made the forests wet and filled with poisons. And Nirni thanked Y'ffer and let him change the forest people also. And Y'ffer did not have Azurah's subtle wisdom, so Y'ffer made the forest people Elves always and never beasts. And Y'ffer named them Bosmer. And from that moment they were no longer in the same litter as the Khajiit.

Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi


Also, Topal was in the middle of the Merethic era, the Pact and birth of the Khajiit are both from the Dawn era, which came before. There is no inconsistency.

I hope it's okay if we turn this into a lore discussion lol...
But I think after looking up a bit more on the internet, both ways go; either they were created from the forest folk, or they are descendants of something on Tamriel already, before man and mer arrived. The lore doesn't give a clear cut answer at the moment, let's hope it's revealed one day. Neither counts as absolute fact since Topal was a long time ago, and maybe the Aldmer wanted to give some flair to his journey or whatever, and a creation myth obviously has some flaws in it, maybe more than a few. Both can still go however, since we know Azura changed an entire race before (after really), why couldn't she with the Khajiit?

I also don't get the part I made bold, do you mean the Green Pact? If I recall correctly that pact was made only after the Aldmer set foot on Summerset and started to colonize.

Cundu_Ertur

That the Green Pact was from the Dawn era is really only evident from what it is describes as being: prior to the Pact mer were changing into beasts, then plants, then back to people and there was only chaos and no order. The pact established stable forms for the Bosmer, in return for protecting the forest of Valenwood. This is only really possible in the Dawn era when there really wasn't any kind of fixed time, even cause and effect were unrelated. The notion that all of the elves of Tamriel were colonists from Summerset is a bit of Altmer propaganda. The Falmer and Dwemer were already present and had well-established cultures when the Chimer and Orsimer left Summerset.

LiquidPony

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

If you expected a change, you either didn't look at those latest parse numbers or created so much noise that is overshadowed a race that needed the change.

Overall the races are readyto ship. You'll either have to redo your build or get a new pve guild that isn't going to kick you for 500 avg DMG decrease lol

As I said, it was mostly about the utility passives, not the stats. And also, Argonian and Bosmer in PvE?

Bosmer is totally fine and competitive in PvE.

It's a bit worse than redguard, which is exactly the same flavor-wise. And it's not really good on PvP either.

Edit: From th3asiangod (new gilliam in my opinion)
That's one of the biggest differences in dps with these new racials, together with Argonians. Also, their utility passive is sh*t.

It's funny how wildly different people interpret this stuff. I've got another discussion in a different thread where someone is using this exact same video as proof that Redguards are trash and Bosmer are better in all circumstances.

But hey, let's ignore the fact that this small set of parses is only applicable to stamblades, who have great sustain, can sustain a solo parse just fine on an Orc or a Dunmer, and who get absolutely no meaningful benefit from Bosmer or Redguard passives.

Bosmer have better sustain on classes that don't use a weapon spammable. Redguards have better sustain on classes that do use a weapon spamamble. Bosmer will be better in some cases, Redguards will be better in others. Pretty well-balanced honestly.

I do think ZOS should consider doing something to appease the people who have concerns separate from combat balance, though (particularly as it relates to sneak-based gameplay).

Ozby

If the passive to crit dmg is staying then up resource recovery please

Kalle_Demos

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That the Green Pact was from the Dawn era is really only evident from what it is describes as being: prior to the Pact mer were changing into beasts, then plants, then back to people and there was only chaos and no order. The pact established stable forms for the Bosmer, in return for protecting the forest of Valenwood. This is only really possible in the Dawn era when there really wasn't any kind of fixed time, even cause and effect were unrelated. The notion that all of the elves of Tamriel were colonists from Summerset is a bit of Altmer propaganda. The Falmer and Dwemer were already present and had well-established cultures when the Chimer and Orsimer left Summerset.

Off topic but my understanding is that all the various Elves are descendants of the Aldmer who traveled to Tamriel from Aldmeris. It is possible that whoever the Bosmer were before were changed after they arrived. Dwemer and Falmer are descendants of the Aldmer as well.

"The earliest civilization of which there are records is that of the Dwemer. Sometimes called "Dwarves" by the ignorant, the Dwemer were the remnants of the early Aldmer who had settled the coasts, and developed a highly sophisticated and technological culture.

The rule of the Dwemer in Morrowind was contested by another group of Mer, the Chimer. The Chimer were, like the Dwemer, descendents of the Aldmer, and had followed their prophet Veloth across Tamriel from the west." - Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition

One theory that more accurately supports your view is that Aldmer of ancient times left some of their people in Valenwood for reasons unknown so that they would have ties in Tamriel and they eventually became the Bosmer we know today.

Juhasow

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

BlueRaven

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Juhasow

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

This is factually incorrect. There is not the slightest shred of lore to support improved detection for the Bosmer. That Bosmer are hunters is irrelevant because EVERY RACE HAS HUNTERS. On the other hand, Bosmers have been consistently defined by three things, in lore and in previous games: the Green Pact, Archery, and Stealth. Not stealth detection, but actual 'able to hide better' stealth. As Raven mentions, Khajiit have always had a detection ability (in Morrowind and Oblivion, as well as Skyrim) called Night Eye. So if any race should be crippled with the detection ability, it should be them. Not that I've ever called for that, I wouldn't wish this useless bucket of slop on my worst enemy.

The thing is, this was a solution to a problem that never existed. That Bosmer and Khajiit shared the same stealth passive was never a problem from a lore standpoint. They came from the same original people. The original elves of Valenwood either followed Y'ffre into the Green Pact and became Bosmer, or followed Azura and became Khajiit. So for them to share some racial traits is entirely understandable.

Fact that EVERY RACE HAS HUNTERS doesnt mean they're equall at this. Bosmers due to lore are naturally talented with bows - main weapon of hunters. Coincidence ? There is also one of the Green Pact laws saying that bosmers may only consume meat based products so yeah they are literally forced to be extremly good hunters otherwise they would have to either break their holy law or die from starvation. Hunting is much stronger aspect for bosmer culture then in case for other races. You could also say EVERY RACE HAS MAGES or EVERY RACE HAS WARRIORS but that doesnt mean those types of activities are what shines the most for certain race. Those roles are just needed in society because there can be no larger society where everyone is having the same role. Actually You've bringed up pretty solid argument for wood elfs to actually have that stealth detection passive since due to their lives in forests and their holy laws it's kinda obvious throughout the years they would develop better tracking skills and techniques then other races so after years they would be better not only at detecting prey but also foes. It's like with those autochthonic tribes of bushmans or indians living in wilderness. They're extremly good at tracking stuff and this is knowledge passed from father to son because it's part of their lives and culture. Sounds familiar.

On the other hands we have khajits which are basically humanoid cats. Now it makes even more sense for khajits to have stealth detection reduction passive. One of the base cats physiology features is that they can hide their fangs just to sneak more quiet to the prey so prey wont hear then to the last moment. Their feets are designed to basically reduce the sounds of their steps. Those are creates literally designed to sneak and not be detected and khajit race is based on those animals. What body adaptation that would help sneaking bosmers have ? That they're small ? Well there are also large cats and that doesnt stop them from being perfect at sneaking. 250kg+ tiger can sneak to the prey without being noticed to the last moments. Khajits having stealth detection reduxction and bomsers having stealth detection passives sounds very reasonable when You think about it.

Also I think You totally misintrerpretated context of my previous statement. I was saying that bosmer having stealth detection still sounds more reasonable then altmer having lower resource restoration.

Juhasow

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

Minno

you all do know that lore only makes sense to explain game mechanics and not the other way around, right?

Kalle_Demos

Minno wrote: »

you all do know that lore only makes sense to explain game mechanics and not the other way around, right?

That could work if the game was completely original and new but ESO is not. It is built upon the foundation of a decades old series and populated by people who've been playing said series for years. The series rep, story, lore and style of play is why most of us are here. ESO is not the only MMO that has had to tackle this. Lore and Gameplay can be balanced. This doesn't have to be hard or divisive. ZOS' approach however is going in the wrong direction according to their OWN words.

Cundu_Ertur

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

you all do know that lore only makes sense to explain game mechanics and not the other way around, right?

That could work if the game was completely original and new but ESO is not. It is built upon the foundation of a decades old series and populated by people who've been playing said series for years. The series rep, story, lore and style of play is why most of us are here. ESO is not the only MMO that has had to tackle this. Lore and Gameplay can be balanced. This doesn't have to be hard or divisive. ZOS' approach however is going in the wrong direction according to their OWN words.

I was going to say this but you already did.

Cundu_Ertur

Juhasow wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

This is factually incorrect. There is not the slightest shred of lore to support improved detection for the Bosmer. That Bosmer are hunters is irrelevant because EVERY RACE HAS HUNTERS. On the other hand, Bosmers have been consistently defined by three things, in lore and in previous games: the Green Pact, Archery, and Stealth. Not stealth detection, but actual 'able to hide better' stealth. As Raven mentions, Khajiit have always had a detection ability (in Morrowind and Oblivion, as well as Skyrim) called Night Eye. So if any race should be crippled with the detection ability, it should be them. Not that I've ever called for that, I wouldn't wish this useless bucket of slop on my worst enemy.

The thing is, this was a solution to a problem that never existed. That Bosmer and Khajiit shared the same stealth passive was never a problem from a lore standpoint. They came from the same original people. The original elves of Valenwood either followed Y'ffre into the Green Pact and became Bosmer, or followed Azura and became Khajiit. So for them to share some racial traits is entirely understandable.

Fact that EVERY RACE HAS HUNTERS doesnt mean they're equall at this. Bosmers due to lore are naturally talented with bows - main weapon of hunters. Coincidence ? There is also one of the Green Pact laws saying that bosmers may only consume meat based products so yeah they are literally forced to be extremly good hunters otherwise they would have to either break their holy law or die from starvation. Hunting is much stronger aspect for bosmer culture then in case for other races. You could also say EVERY RACE HAS MAGES or EVERY RACE HAS WARRIORS but that doesnt mean those types of activities are what shines the most for certain race. Those roles are just needed in society because there can be no larger society where everyone is having the same role. Actually You've bringed up pretty solid argument for wood elfs to actually have that stealth detection passive since due to their lives in forests and their holy laws it's kinda obvious throughout the years they would develop better tracking skills and techniques then other races so after years they would be better not only at detecting prey but also foes. It's like with those autochthonic tribes of bushmans or indians living in wilderness. They're extremly good at tracking stuff and this is knowledge passed from father to son because it's part of their lives and culture. Sounds familiar.

On the other hands we have khajits which are basically humanoid cats. Now it makes even more sense for khajits to have stealth detection reduction passive. One of the base cats physiology features is that they can hide their fangs just to sneak more quiet to the prey so prey wont hear then to the last moment. Their feets are designed to basically reduce the sounds of their steps. Those are creates literally designed to sneak and not be detected and khajit race is based on those animals. What body adaptation that would help sneaking bosmers have ? That they're small ? Well there are also large cats and that doesnt stop them from being perfect at sneaking. 250kg+ tiger can sneak to the prey without being noticed to the last moments. Khajits having stealth detection reduxction and bomsers having stealth detection passives sounds very reasonable when You think about it.

Also I think You totally misintrerpretated context of my previous statement. I was saying that bosmer having stealth detection still sounds more reasonable then altmer having lower resource restoration.

Where is the Meh Aeyleidion in your scenario? The Rite of Theft? The other thing is that I've played TESIII, TESIV, and TESV. Did you? Did you read the books? Listen to the dialogue? Give me ONE instance just one where "Bosmers make great guards," ever came up. Scouts, sure, Bosmers make great scouts comes up but, so sorry, stealth is a class skill for scouts. So now, Bosmer? Not such great scouts. Bosmers were never recommended as Hunters, either, not even in the games where that was a class. Scouts, Thieves, Archers, and once (in Morrowind) Agents. Almost all have stealth as a class skill; that one that didn't had marksman, which is of course the Bosmers' other signature ability.

If the Devs had taken Altmers main magic bonus away, I would accept your point that these are equally lore breaking, but they took the Altmer regen away. That's more on par with Bosmer losing disease resistance, not stealth. Honestly, look at my sig.

That said, I do think the Altmer sustain is a worthless joke. If they had set it up where the lowest percentage got restored, like if you were a magicka altmer, and your magicka was a 80% and your stamina at 90% you'd get magicka back, but if it was the other way 'round you'd get stamina, that would be something interesting. That would be something useful. As it is, it's like Hunter's Eye, three free skill points to spend somewhere else.

BlueRaven

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

Juhasow

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

This is factually incorrect. There is not the slightest shred of lore to support improved detection for the Bosmer. That Bosmer are hunters is irrelevant because EVERY RACE HAS HUNTERS. On the other hand, Bosmers have been consistently defined by three things, in lore and in previous games: the Green Pact, Archery, and Stealth. Not stealth detection, but actual 'able to hide better' stealth. As Raven mentions, Khajiit have always had a detection ability (in Morrowind and Oblivion, as well as Skyrim) called Night Eye. So if any race should be crippled with the detection ability, it should be them. Not that I've ever called for that, I wouldn't wish this useless bucket of slop on my worst enemy.

The thing is, this was a solution to a problem that never existed. That Bosmer and Khajiit shared the same stealth passive was never a problem from a lore standpoint. They came from the same original people. The original elves of Valenwood either followed Y'ffre into the Green Pact and became Bosmer, or followed Azura and became Khajiit. So for them to share some racial traits is entirely understandable.

Fact that EVERY RACE HAS HUNTERS doesnt mean they're equall at this. Bosmers due to lore are naturally talented with bows - main weapon of hunters. Coincidence ? There is also one of the Green Pact laws saying that bosmers may only consume meat based products so yeah they are literally forced to be extremly good hunters otherwise they would have to either break their holy law or die from starvation. Hunting is much stronger aspect for bosmer culture then in case for other races. You could also say EVERY RACE HAS MAGES or EVERY RACE HAS WARRIORS but that doesnt mean those types of activities are what shines the most for certain race. Those roles are just needed in society because there can be no larger society where everyone is having the same role. Actually You've bringed up pretty solid argument for wood elfs to actually have that stealth detection passive since due to their lives in forests and their holy laws it's kinda obvious throughout the years they would develop better tracking skills and techniques then other races so after years they would be better not only at detecting prey but also foes. It's like with those autochthonic tribes of bushmans or indians living in wilderness. They're extremly good at tracking stuff and this is knowledge passed from father to son because it's part of their lives and culture. Sounds familiar.

On the other hands we have khajits which are basically humanoid cats. Now it makes even more sense for khajits to have stealth detection reduction passive. One of the base cats physiology features is that they can hide their fangs just to sneak more quiet to the prey so prey wont hear then to the last moment. Their feets are designed to basically reduce the sounds of their steps. Those are creates literally designed to sneak and not be detected and khajit race is based on those animals. What body adaptation that would help sneaking bosmers have ? That they're small ? Well there are also large cats and that doesnt stop them from being perfect at sneaking. 250kg+ tiger can sneak to the prey without being noticed to the last moments. Khajits having stealth detection reduxction and bomsers having stealth detection passives sounds very reasonable when You think about it.

Also I think You totally misintrerpretated context of my previous statement. I was saying that bosmer having stealth detection still sounds more reasonable then altmer having lower resource restoration.

Where is the Meh Aeyleidion in your scenario? The Rite of Theft? The other thing is that I've played TESIII, TESIV, and TESV. Did you? Did you read the books? Listen to the dialogue? Give me ONE instance just one where "Bosmers make great guards," ever came up. Scouts, sure, Bosmers make great scouts comes up but, so sorry, stealth is a class skill for scouts. So now, Bosmer? Not such great scouts. Bosmers were never recommended as Hunters, either, not even in the games where that was a class. Scouts, Thieves, Archers, and once (in Morrowind) Agents. Almost all have stealth as a class skill; that one that didn't had marksman, which is of course the Bosmers' other signature ability.

If the Devs had taken Altmers main magic bonus away, I would accept your point that these are equally lore breaking, but they took the Altmer regen away. That's more on par with Bosmer losing disease resistance, not stealth. Honestly, look at my sig.

That said, I do think the Altmer sustain is a worthless joke. If they had set it up where the lowest percentage got restored, like if you were a magicka altmer, and your magicka was a 80% and your stamina at 90% you'd get magicka back, but if it was the other way 'round you'd get stamina, that would be something interesting. That would be something useful. As it is, it's like Hunter's Eye, three free skill points to spend somewhere else.

Man You have huge issue with understanding what others said. I said that despite the fact some race do not have natural talents to do something still society structutes will require for some of that race members to play certain role thus some bosmers will have to be guards for example and it doesnt matter they're not natural born guards. There will be also cooks , tailors etc. That is not how society works and I think this is what many lore fanboys misses. You're basically lore racist by thinking that natural born talents of the race instantly put 100% of that race members in line to do 1 thing only. There wouldnt be no society evolving if every members of that society would do the same thing. Even scouts are scouting for intel to give it to infantry or other units not to fight. Fact that bosmers were not reccomended as a hunters doesnt mean they do not excel at hunting. ES games just do not require hunting skills to complete them becuase those games are more around some conflict and interactions with different cultures. Hunter apeared in Skyrim so it's no suprise there isnt much wood elf hunters there since this is nord land with completly different biome then wood elfs homelands. It's funny how You all lore fanboys literally ignore logic just to go with Your vision and how You see things one dimensionally. Also this is TESO not TES II , TES III or whatever. Get used to the fact things wont be 1:1 copy pasted from previous titlles and if You're not happy with that well go back playing those other titles.

Devs taking away stealth from bosmer doesnt break logic for me since bomsers excels at both steath and tracking skills so devs just replaced one of their talents with another.

Juhasow

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

MLGProPlayer

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

Juhasow

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

Rhaegar75

What are the 3 top PvE and what are the top PvP classes with the PTS patch?

martijnlv40

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

What are the 3 top PvE and what are the top PvP classes with the PTS patch?

PvE magicka: Altmer, Dunmer, Breton (,Khajiit)
PvE stamina: Orc, Dunmer, Khajiit
PvP magicka: depends really, but my guess is Breton, Dunmer, Altmer
PvP stamina: also depends, but probably Orcs on top again with the rest of the stamina races following closely.

BlueRaven

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

Here is some “context” for you:

Morrowind

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

Oblivion

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

Skyrim

Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

Morrowind

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Oblivion

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Skyrim

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

•••

Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

Juhasow

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

Here is some “context” for you:

Morrowind

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

Oblivion

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

Skyrim

Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

Morrowind

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Oblivion

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Skyrim

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

•••

Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

Cundu_Ertur

Not even wrong.

BlueRaven

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

Here is some “context” for you:

Morrowind

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

Oblivion

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

Skyrim

Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

Morrowind

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Oblivion

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Skyrim

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

•••

Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

Ogou

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

Here is some “context” for you:

Morrowind

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

Oblivion

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

Skyrim

Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

Morrowind

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Oblivion

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Skyrim

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

•••

Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

Cundu_Ertur

Ogou wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

Here is some “context” for you:

Morrowind

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

Oblivion

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

Skyrim

Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

Morrowind

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Oblivion

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Skyrim

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

•••

Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?

As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.

Stigant

Nerftheforums wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

If you expected a change, you either didn't look at those latest parse numbers or created so much noise that is overshadowed a race that needed the change.

Overall the races are readyto ship. You'll either have to redo your build or get a new pve guild that isn't going to kick you for 500 avg DMG decrease lol

As I said, it was mostly about the utility passives, not the stats. And also, Argonian and Bosmer in PvE?

Bosmer is totally fine and competitive in PvE.

It's a bit worse than redguard, which is exactly the same flavor-wise. And it's not really good on PvP either.

Edit: From th3asiangod (new gilliam in my opinion)
That's one of the biggest differences in dps with these new racials, together with Argonians. Also, their utility passive is sh*t.

Bosmer for pvp is dope af. For hit and run builds, and for stamnb in particular, it is a God tier race. Medium armor builds will greatly benefit from the race. It is second only to orc, but let's be serious, the number of people able to play an orc as a nb are very few :P

I don't know if you're being serious or not, but I'm doing quite fine in BGs and nonCP Cyrodiil on an Orc NB, even not using Troll King, and I'm just an average casual. Orc is great choice for NB on live and seems like a great one on PTS as well.

In PvE sure, sustain is difficult but doable and so far I 've been able to get trough most of the content without bigger issues.

Ogou

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I thought for sure, they would touch on the high elf one last time. I'm quite surprised at that one.

If any change was likely it was Stealth for Bosmer because of obvious lore reasons. Altmer were not in need of any changes.

Yeah because altmer mages restoring stamina sounds so reasonable to the lore... If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection then altmers with restoring lower resource. Not that I would care about the lore just pointing out clear bias.

"If anything then bosmers are closer to lore with stealth detection" based on....?

In skyrim Kahjits had the better eyesight passive (not that I wish this stealth detect passive on anyone) so how are they closer to lore?

Have You ever heared about the context @BlueRaven ? Cutting part of the phrase out of it and then making conclusion based on that part is taking things out of the context.

I did not take anything out of context your full quote was there for all to see.

You claim that giving Bosmers stealth detect is more lore appropriate than giving altmer an off spec regen.

I want to know what that is based on.

I think they are both equally lore breaking, but you seem to think one is more lore appropriate than the other. I am not arguing Altmers is not lore breaking (I think it is as well) and I am not interested in your justification of that. I just want to know why you think Bosmers stealth detect is closer to the lore.

I showed you why another race (Kahjits) are known for their eyesight by giving an example. (Not that I want Kahjits to get the awful passive of stealth detect.)

Well You marked specific part of my comment and You make whole post like rest of my comment wouldnt exist so yes I think You took things out of context.

Since bomsers are living mainly in forests and they have natural talents with the bows it makes them perfefct hunters so it's kinda reasonable they would develop very good tracking and detecting skills since those are abilities much needed in area inhabited by them. Also one of the laws of the Green pact says that they can only consume meat based products so they really need to be good at hunting to fulfill that law. Way better the other races.

There is no reasonable explanation though for altmers restoring their secondary resource though.

So lets just cut to the heart of the matter. In dense forests with limited vistas, the bosmers hunt their prey by eyesight... Not tracking disturbed plants, not listening to the sounds of the forest, or somehow communing with the green. Bosmers have walking trees and spirits of the forest, but no forget them, eyesight.

And they are natural born hunters because of the green pack. Natural born... As infants they have an innate sense of hunting. These elves know how to hunt instinctively, so to speak, from birth. Really.

Meanwhile kahjits, who are literally walking cats, have no natural ability to hunt. They are the first felines ever that need to be taught how to hunt as they have no instinctive ability.

And even going from past games (which take place AFTER ESO btw), where kahjits are already known for their eyesight, and who grow up in an arid environment with long vistas, somehow in this game bosmers are better. And now between this game and all the others that will be reversed. When do kahjits learn to have better eyesight than bosmers, the start of the third era? A dragon break gifts it to them perhaps?

I am not saying kahjits should have a stealth detect, but of ALL the things they could have given bosmers, this was the best they can come up with? Natural born hunters and eyesight? They had a square peg and a round hole, and they pounded it until it went in.

Nothing to do with pod singers (spell casting), nothing to do with spinners (knowledge acquirement)? Nothing to do with the rite of theft, which gets a TON of quests dedicated about it?

They shoot arrows so how about a buff from attacking at ranged? Not a damage buff necessarily, but maybe cost reduction?

They are known for stealth, so how about a speed boost while stealth? Nothing like that?

No, they get a racial that was never theirs to begin with.

"Hey Breton players! Your good at archery now!"
"But we are magical, bosmers are archers..."
"Well you have to defend your castles somehow right? So now your natural born archers."

"Well I guess it is lore appropriate"; no one will ever say.

Yeah imo bosmers do track prey through skillcs and techinques developed throughout the years. Have You ever seen how amazonian indians (living in dense forests) are tracking their prey ? I reccomend You to look for it. Also yeah walking trees and forests spirits will be definietly good at hunting. Prey will definietly wait for Youi to catch it while You will have a small chat with the tree or spirit lol. Hunter will use visuals , smells , sounds etc to track the prey not forests spirits. Broken sprays , worm poo , curved grass , animal hairs on plants etc are things that help hunter to hunt not chatting with trees or spirits. If whole bomser culture would rely completly on spirits or trees not on their tracking skills and would not develop any tracking skills they would be basically trees or spirits slaves.

Having sense of something and learining the techniques to accompany that sense are 2 different things. Small animals have sense of hunting since they're born but they need to observe adults to learn how to do it properly. I dont think that if You would give infant bomser a bow and throw him into the forest he would come back with bunch of feathers and meat next day.

Actually khajits are between 4 races mainly named as good hunters. Also khajits do not live in biome that would require extreme hunting skills. The name khajiit is basically translated as khaj-sand , iit-walk so I do not think race that is so connected with desert would require same tracking skillsas race living in the forests. Hunting there looks kinda differently. Just look at the history of old desert tribes or even bushmans and how they were hunting the prey and hunting. It looks kinda different then in case of tribes that were living in dense forests like amazonian indians.

When You think about it more it really sounds like ZoS did logical jon\b with tweaking racials for khajiits and bomsers. It's just lore fanboys that see things one dimensionally and will ignore simpliest logic just to keep seeing things that way that have issue with seeing that those changes kinda makes sense.

So wanting a game to stay true to its 20+ year lore makes you a fanboy now?

No. Seeing things one dimensionally without context does. Also I am not against fanboys as a group. I named which type of fanboys I am against.

Square peg, round hole. Just keep ponding it right?

Here is some “context” for you:

Morrowind

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night is a unique Khajiiti racial spell in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. This spell temporarily endows the subject with infravision, or the ability to see in the dark. The effect's magnitude is how much the ambient light level is raised.

Oblivion

Kahjit passive: Eye of Night – casts Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self at the cost of 0 Magicka. Unlimited uses.

Skyrim

Kahjit passive: Night Eye lesser power. Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit

Bosmer related eyesight passives per game:

Morrowind

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Oblivion

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

Skyrim

Bosmer passive: eyesight related -none.

•••

Yet somehow now Bosmers have better eyesight then any other race.

Through natural born skills not casting spells. Sounds reasonable. Also improved night vision doesnt isntantly means You have improved eye sight in general. You just see better at night for some period of time which have nothing to do with seeing foes that are in stealth at any given time. Having better eye sight have nothing to do with being better at detecting foes especially if that foes are sneaking which means they're avoiding Your eye sight. As I said too one dimensional thinking. If anyone would be better at sneaking thei it has to be khajiit.

Yet somehow this improved eyesight disappears in future games never to be seen again. And improved stealth, which they have now, and which they will have in the future, will suddenly be absent for a while, makes perfect sense.

And maybe your Stam recovery in altmers can be seen as the legacy of Trinimac, who was Auriel's greatest knight. (Wow! Suddenly there IS lore supporting that awful altmer passive. Happy now?)

That's the thing though, you can always find some lore reason to explain a balance change. Racial traits never had to stay consistent between games, as proved by the Command Animal power in Skyrim.
You don't like the changes, great. Then argue about it's usefulness or how it is not balanced. Leave the lore out of it or you're going to end up making statements like "scouts don't need tracking skills".

Which was like the command animal ability in Morrowind, and Oblivion? Not going to complain about it being gone, since it was an activated ability and there are no activated racial powers in ESO;and it was weak at any point after the first couple of levels in all games, one of the (if not the) most weak powers in the game. But that wasn't ever part of the core description of the race. Three things have defined Bosmer: Pact, Archery, Stealth. And, no, stealth detection is not stealth. Saying detection is stealth is like saying infecting someone with a disease is like curing them. Typhoid Mary is the world's greatest doctor, then, right?

As for the usefulness, provide ONE example where stealth detection is useful outside of Cryodiil or BG.

I meant how the skill itself was inconsistent (going from only control only "small" animals to being able to control larger ones too).
So one of the three things that defines the Bosmer is the Pact, right? The same Pact that requires them to have to hunt their food since they cannot harm plants? Which would make them skilled trackers? Yeah. Stealth detection is not stealth but it is a tracking skill which Bosmer are supposed to be good at.

I personally don't even think it's useful in PVP. I don't like the passive either but calling it lore breaking is stupid.