Progression Atrophy & the NEED for Power Creep in ESO + Other Pain Points for Middle Tiered players

squinceybones · February 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

@squinceybones

Sorry, was a meandering post that I've cleaned up now. Content is retro-actively laddered. This is not an issue, and makes perfect sense.

Issue is people wanting the new content, the extended content at the level of release before they are ready for it -- and expecting it to accommodate for them.

Yeah i noticed there was a bit of a mess there, my comment was directed at sugacoma, however feedback is feedback.

Correct me if i'm wrong, using the most recent content as the example in cloudrest. Normal + 1,2,3, veteran + 1,2,3, that's 6 levels of difficulty on the latest goods, what more do you want?

Grianasteri · February 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

AC will shave .1-.3s off your skill blocks in a rotation. Think of the diagram below as your rotation where the pipe (|) represents the boundaries of the GCD.

| {SKILL | } { SKILL | } {SKILL | }

Most skill animations overrun those boundaries by a small amount, we're talking fractions of seconds here. AC might shave up to 1s per 10s per rotation, in other words 1 more skill fired per block of 10. Either way, it's not going to make your dps jump from 10K to 50K. It'll more likely add a negligible amount of 1K, remarkably raising 10K to 11K dps.

| { SKILL } | { SKILL } | { SKILL }

AC is not what makes people dps machines. Light attack weaving with continuous rotation and decent gear is. That's a different subject (see linked post). Most players only AC (via bar swap) on especially long running anims as there's no point on the shorter ones, because, ironically, people who over-AC actually harm their dps as they rhythmically prepare themselves for the next skill too early, stopping it from firing at all(!)

Of course, neither myself nor the original poster argued that Animation Cancelling can magically make a 10k DPS player into a 50K DPS, or suggest anything like that at all.

The point I have made specifically, is that I disagree with the notion some high DPS players have, that achieving DPS such as 40k is "easy". IT CLEARLY IS NOT. Because as I said, the vast majority of players do not get anywhere near that, if it was easy everyone would be doing it and they are not.

mairwen85 · February 2019

@squinceybones that is exactly my point. Content difficulty is laddered in retrospect. It's not intended to be grabbed by 'younger' players at release and smashed through, but as an extension to the main game and to be worked toward.

I have yet to beat vCR+2, but my guild has been doing trials on a weekly basis starting at nCR+0, growing toward the goal of v+3. We're nowhere near it yet... But eventually.

This is something I feel gets overlooked, much as you explain it. It's there to provide that stepwise progression.

However, I will advocate new DLC dungeons be released with a 3tier difficulty.

ZOS_Mika · February 2019

We have recently removed a bit of unnecessary back and forth. Please ensure that the discussion remains civil, constructive, and free of baiting. Thank you for your understanding.

DivineFirstYOLO · February 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Devs (and execs thinking about $$ even more) should ask themselves if 99,9% (and the whole rest of teh game) is worth screwing because of 0,1%. Very tiny but very vocal minority.

Because that is what they are doing now, screwing over 99,9% of playerbase with insane gear/CP power creep...and then stuffing main STORY in there. If they continue....it wont end well, just like any other MMO who tried it.

This below is BIG defeat for both playerbase AND ZOS (monetarily) and clear sign ZOS needs to change what they are doing because they are wasting their time and money on content no one really wants/likes (and yes that content IS like that BECAUSE of insane gear/CP power creep)

"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."

@MikaHR

Those numbers may seem worrisome, but they are probably rigged and do not reflect the reality.
I did some research, only 19% have the "Dawn of Champion" achievment (source: https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109957-dawn-of-a-champion/) , only 18% have the "Alliance War Recruit" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109956-alliance-war-recruit/) , 2,7% have the "Maelstrom Arena Champion" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/125320-maelstrom-arena-champion/) and only 19,6% have reached level 50 (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109935-level-50-hero/) .

It's getting even better: when you look at "First Achievers" section you will see that the first guy reached level 50 on the 11th of june 2015, more than a year after release? :pepesherlockholmesthonk

Conlusion: ESO PS4 players are either lazy as ***, logging in and not doing anything but role playing
or
numbers are wrong
or
I am stupid and cannot interpret them
or
achievments are character bound (which is very unlikely, because I doubt everybody has done Main Quest Chapter 1 on each character (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109916-soul-shriven-in-coldharbour/).

Do you get what I am saying?

IwakuraLain42 · February 2019

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Devs (and execs thinking about $$ even more) should ask themselves if 99,9% (and the whole rest of teh game) is worth screwing because of 0,1%. Very tiny but very vocal minority.

Because that is what they are doing now, screwing over 99,9% of playerbase with insane gear/CP power creep...and then stuffing main STORY in there. If they continue....it wont end well, just like any other MMO who tried it.

This below is BIG defeat for both playerbase AND ZOS (monetarily) and clear sign ZOS needs to change what they are doing because they are wasting their time and money on content no one really wants/likes (and yes that content IS like that BECAUSE of insane gear/CP power creep)

"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."

@MikaHR

Those numbers may seem worrisome, but they are probably rigged and do not reflect the reality.
I did some research, only 19% have the "Dawn of Champion" achievment (source: https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109957-dawn-of-a-champion/) , only 18% have the "Alliance War Recruit" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109956-alliance-war-recruit/) , 2,7% have the "Maelstrom Arena Champion" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/125320-maelstrom-arena-champion/) and only 19,6% have reached level 50 (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109935-level-50-hero/) .

It's getting even better: when you look at "First Achievers" section you will see that the first guy reached level 50 on the 11th of june 2015, more than a year after release? :pepesherlockholmesthonk

Conlusion: ESO PS4 players are either lazy as ***, logging in and not doing anything but role playing
or
numbers are wrong
or
I am stupid and cannot interpret them
or
achievments are character bound (which is very unlikely, because I doubt everybody has done Main Quest Chapter 1 on each character (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109916-soul-shriven-in-coldharbour/).

Do you get what I am saying?

Sigh, I think I mentioned that a few times before: the percentages of trophies in the PS4 system is extremely unrealistic. The PS4 only updates the info on the server when you actually look at your trophies (that’s when the console syncs them). And that’s something very few player do regularly.

Wifeaggro13 · February 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

Agalloch wrote: »

Many of them can't do over 20k dps because don't know how to animation cancel..

There it is again. One of the problems.

Animation cancelling won't increase your dps magically.; it only helps a player tighten up their rotation.

What @Agalloch actually means is that many players can't exceed 20K because they don't understand what attack weaving is. Second to that they assume the cast animation to work as the timer for GCD. The latter point is flawed as most animations overrun it.

For all those against bar swapping or block tapping to exit cast animations that overrun the GCD, take your complaint to ZoS and demand they ensure all cast animations last exactly 0.9s -- that way animation cancelling becomes a moot point in this kind of conversation.

Its important to remember that Animation canceling was a bug and attack weaving was a feature, animation canceling became a feature because it became diffcult and costly to partially redisgn combat aspects. both have been compounded over time add in the fact that earlier content was designed that animation canceling was not required to get the DPS numbers to complete content. now its part of the meta.

the problem is multiple for the mid tier gamer and those trying to enter VR content. 1st problem CP at about 320 is the magic number for bottom end all trials and dungeons can be accomplished but you need to have knowledge of your role prober builds and gear.as you get more CP you get more powerful , secondly DPS is so centric to this game design its almost counter productive to the community. a group can survive with a medicore tank or heal in some instances you dont even need one or the other or both.but content is not acomplishable if you dont have DPS, its really short sighted game design. Most mid tier players dont understand gear traits and how damage stats effect their DPS so your correct animation canceling will not magicaly increase their dps and that aspect does take time to get it correct in your rotation. the situational awareness your talking about with standing still on a dummy as opposed to actual application in dungeons comes from knowing dungeons / trials and hours of play time.

With that said there should be content that requires some dedication and team work to accomplish . just because its there does not mean you should get the rewards for half ass play. that content is far smaller then the majority of the game that is ultra ultra casual and accomplishable by those that want to mindlessly light attack through story.

VaranisArano · February 2019

Um, apologies for the bit at the end that apparently got my rather lengthy post analyzing the PS4 statistics removed. It was intended to reference a well-known quote, not bait, but fair enough. I'm sorry.

My main point, which I think is on topic for this thread, was that the statistics aren't precise enough to prove that a DPS Gap or difficulty spike exists that is preventing players from progressing through the DLC dungeons. We can't use it to isolate variables like the length of time that a DLC has been out, or the number of active players/subscribers who have the DLC.

For example, I look at this part: "When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."

On the face of it, there's a large gap in completion rates between SotH and HotR. Was difficulty the main cause of that?

Well, we can't isolate that variable from the data given. Because there's also a very large time gap between their release, from July 2016 to August 2017. Without data on DLC ownership over time, we can't isolate time as a factor.

Other factors to consider, not an exhaustive list:

Active ESO+ subscribers and DLC owners
Desirability of meta monster helms and gear
timing of motif releases
relative percentage of Undaunted Pledge rotations

In short, we just don't have the data from the PS4 trophies to actually figure out if the difficulty is what's causing a gap in players completing the dungeons, or even if such a gap actually exists in the end-game community.

Unfortunately. I'd love to have the actual data. If there is a gap occurring due to increased difficulty, stacked mechanics, and low margins of error, we ought to be able to isolate the variables and see it reflected in the completion rate data.

wolfie1.0. · February 2019

As a low to mid tier player myself I understand that I have to get better. I'm the type that can and probably will wipe on normal dungeons. I am aiming higher but pulling dps is not as easy as people here like to think.The largest barrier I see for players to advance are as follows. First there are the balance changes that seem to occur every 90 days. For some of us it takes longer for us to adjust. There are some changes that occurred in 2016 that I still have to remember to accommodate for. Next is the sheer complexity that is how the game calculates damage and where that damage comes from. There are some stats that you have to manually calculate as nothing in the game will do that for you. Next is the sheer difference between normal dungeons and veteran dungeons completeling a normal is nothing like a vet and norm doesn't have such heavy machanical needs and the margins for errors are non existent. 1 lag spike and your all dead. One shot mechanisms stink.

Most people like me have given up trying. People get tired of getting ridiculed for not knowing mechanics or just messing up, or hitting lag spikes that wipe the group.

Honestly I feel that their should be a mode that is lighter than vet, but still requires mechanics. One that instead of the boss wiping you it just cant take more damage until you do the mechanics.

Contraptions · February 2019

I really sympathize with you OP and I agree that the recent content that's released doesn't feel balanced towards mid tier players like me at all. Most of my oceanic PVE guilds don't run progression for vMOL or anything past that much anymore. We know how to build our characters, but playing such demanding content at high ping was not fun for most of us.

But there is a way to reduce this problem. You need to go to the PTS feedback threads when the new content like dungeons or trials are being tested to tell ZOS that the content is too difficult, certain mechanics are unfair or unfun etc. (of course you should give it a go yourself if possible). I suspect the reason why previous content has been so difficult is that the only feedback that was given at that time was by top tier players, and hence ZOS balances around them. What's easy for them is clearly not for the rest of us as you can see. ZOS sees the top tier players clearing content on the PTS, and they think everything will be fine on live release, or worse, they need to make content HARDER.

I wrote a post on the Frostvault feedback thread explaining why I felt certain mechanics etc. were too difficult on the initial PTS release, and since then the content has been adjusted down, damage has been reduced, mechanics were removed or adjusted etc. We need more feedback from mid-tier players overall to let ZOS know that this trend of excessively hard content is not what we want. We are paying for the DLC in the end, it's only right we get to influence its development.

Would be nice if ZOS could go back and adjust/nerf the already released vet DLC trials and dungeons too.

KhajiitFelix · February 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

@squinceybones that is exactly my point. Content difficulty is laddered in retrospect. It's not intended to be grabbed by 'younger' players at release and smashed through, but as an extension to the main game and to be worked toward.

I have yet to beat vCR+2, but my guild has been doing trials on a weekly basis starting at nCR+0, growing toward the goal of v+3. We're nowhere near it yet... But eventually.

This is something I feel gets overlooked, much as you explain it. It's there to provide that stepwise progression.

However, I will advocate new DLC dungeons be released with a 3tier difficulty.

By "younger" you mean newer player or a young person?

mairwen85 · February 2019

@KhajiitFelix figuratively younger. As in fresh, not jaded, or bitter - - not been smacked about by enough dungeon bosses to know what real difficulty is.

New to the game, new-er, is a good analogy.

No, I mean lower cp and less experienced.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think there's some interesting points being made here worth delving into.

1. High DPS as QOL in trials and dungeons.

As overall DPS has increased due to power creep, ZOS has designed dungeons and trials that require higher DPS.

Moreover, guilds and even PUGs have begun to expect higher DPS, even higher than is required to complete the content. This is for quality of life reasons. Not only can higher DPS skip some mechanics, it also lessens the time required for the group to perform mechanics perfectly.

Thus, ZOS designing mechanics for high DPS is driving players to seek higher DPS to cope with those very mechanics. Its a feedback loop.

2. Players should be able to (eventually) complete ALL the content they paid for.

Here's where I'm not so sure.

Should players in fact be able to eventually reach sufficient DPS to complete ALL content through power creep?

Where does player skill play a part? Or are we assuming that we would have a combat overhaul that makes combat more reliant on player skill as opposed to internet connection/keyboard? Is a balance there even possible?

The downside here too is our friends in Asia and Australia with out of this world pings. They might be skillful but they are hampered by the internet.

lokulin · February 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Um, apologies for the bit at the end that apparently got my rather lengthy post analyzing the PS4 statistics removed. It was intended to reference a well-known quote, not bait, but fair enough. I'm sorry.

My main point, which I think is on topic for this thread, was that the statistics aren't precise enough to prove that a DPS Gap or difficulty spike exists that is preventing players from progressing through the DLC dungeons. We can't use it to isolate variables like the length of time that a DLC has been out, or the number of active players/subscribers who have the DLC.

For example, I look at this part: "When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."

On the face of it, there's a large gap in completion rates between SotH and HotR. Was difficulty the main cause of that?

Well, we can't isolate that variable from the data given. Because there's also a very large time gap between their release, from July 2016 to August 2017. Without data on DLC ownership over time, we can't isolate time as a factor.

Other factors to consider, not an exhaustive list:
Active ESO+ subscribers and DLC owners

Desirability of meta monster helms and gear

timing of motif releases

relative percentage of Undaunted Pledge rotations

In short, we just don't have the data from the PS4 trophies to actually figure out if the difficulty is what's causing a gap in players completing the dungeons, or even if such a gap actually exists in the end-game community.

Unfortunately. I'd love to have the actual data. If there is a gap occurring due to increased difficulty, stacked mechanics, and low margins of error, we ought to be able to isolate the variables and see it reflected in the completion rate data.

You are correct that there are a lot of confounding variables but you can do things like use zone entry achievements (e.g. the dovah fly for just porting to clockwork city) as a proxy to normalise for those that have access to certain DLCs.

Based on (the very skewed) eso-database data, on average only about 9-30% of players access zone based DLC with older zones being a lot more popular (e.g. Orsinium vs. Clockwork city). Chapters is much lower at only 2-4%. Dungeon DLC content is between 4-25%. Once again older dungeons are much more popular. You can then look at differences between completing normal and veteran. You can also compare Dungeon DLCs released close in time to Zone DLCs.

What seems to be the case is that zone DLCs (when adjusted for time) seem to be more popular that dungeon DLCs. More people enter the zone and go on to at least complete the main story line compared to those that enter a dungeon DLC and go on to complete vet or even normal mode.

Whether this is DPS related or not it points towards something interesting. Why are people finding dungeon DLCs less compelling to engage with? I think difficulty is an interesting hypothesis worth investigating. I'd love to have access to the data ZOS has to see what kind of overlap there is between people that do zone DLC vs those that do Dungeons, PvP etc.

MikaHR · February 2019

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Devs (and execs thinking about $$ even more) should ask themselves if 99,9% (and the whole rest of teh game) is worth screwing because of 0,1%. Very tiny but very vocal minority.

Because that is what they are doing now, screwing over 99,9% of playerbase with insane gear/CP power creep...and then stuffing main STORY in there. If they continue....it wont end well, just like any other MMO who tried it.

This below is BIG defeat for both playerbase AND ZOS (monetarily) and clear sign ZOS needs to change what they are doing because they are wasting their time and money on content no one really wants/likes (and yes that content IS like that BECAUSE of insane gear/CP power creep)

"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."

@MikaHR

Those numbers may seem worrisome, but they are probably rigged and do not reflect the reality.
I did some research, only 19% have the "Dawn of Champion" achievment (source: https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109957-dawn-of-a-champion/) , only 18% have the "Alliance War Recruit" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109956-alliance-war-recruit/) , 2,7% have the "Maelstrom Arena Champion" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/125320-maelstrom-arena-champion/) and only 19,6% have reached level 50 (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109935-level-50-hero/) .

It's getting even better: when you look at "First Achievers" section you will see that the first guy reached level 50 on the 11th of june 2015, more than a year after release? :pepesherlockholmesthonk

Conlusion: ESO PS4 players are either lazy as ***, logging in and not doing anything but role playing
or
numbers are wrong
or
I am stupid and cannot interpret them
or
achievments are character bound (which is very unlikely, because I doubt everybody has done Main Quest Chapter 1 on each character (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109916-soul-shriven-in-coldharbour/).

Do you get what I am saying?

Yeah right, PS4 is rigging the numbers now.....

Its numbers that are showing clear picture of what is what. No point arguing the numbers, you can theorize whatever you like but all MMO are pretty consistent in showing exact same thing, ESO is not special in that regard in any way, quite the contrary it is consistent.

pieratsos · February 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not understand how some (very few) think ESO has power atrophy instead of power creep.

It has been very obvious the game has had power creep as challenging or even somewhat challenging instances are so much easier today than a year or two ago. vMA is a great example as their scores have increased over time, not decreased as would occur with power atrophy.

VMA is actually an example of power atrophy. Thanks to the massive nerf to damage shields, VMA is harder than ever for some Magicka classes. Doesn't matter how much DPS has creeped up, the content is harder overall because of reduced defensive capabilities. Sustain has also been nerfed severely since VMA launched. Where is the creep?

Which classes excatly ? Name 1 class that have harder time to complete vMA right now then in 2015 when it was released.

Use the same gear/CP as you did in 2015. and tell us is if it harder/easier today than "back in 2015."

If you dont have the gear/CP it is harder...because of nerfs...that happend BECASUE of insane gear/CP power creep. Gear power creep that regular player (99,9% of playerbase) who might attempt vMA for the first time is not riding as only miniscule number of players are interested in raiding.

pieratsos wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Power creep is a myth. What you guys are talking about is DPS creep. I remember when Vet COA2 was the hardest dungeon in the game. It took me several attempts with various pugs to finally complete it, but it WAS puggable. It was hard, but nothing about it was so complicated that you couldn't explain it in one sentence in chat.

Now we have these ridiculously complicated DLC dungeons. They are effectively unpuggable and impractical to explain without voice comms. My DPS may be hundred times higher than the pre-DLC era, but it doesn't matter because the difficulty of the top content has far outstripped DPS.

I don't think it should be required to watch hours of Alcast videos to complete content. I liked the difficulty of the old ESO, and I suspect many, many players would agree with me.

You do realize that content difficulty skyrocketed because of power creep right?

Bingo. Except vast majority of people aint riding the insane power creep (just look at stats of how many people finished newest DLC dungeons - 0,1%).

It is lose situation for other 99,9%.

Except the people defending that insane power creep like CP are ironically the people who complain about power creep creating these hard DLC dungeons that they cant finish. They are literally defending the things that indirectly create their issues in the first place.

You're jumping to conclusions. Correct me if I'm wrong (with proof), but ZOS has never explained why they started putting these ridiculously complicated mechanics in the 4-man dungeons. I don't think "power creep" is the reason, if it exists at all. I think the most likely reason is that ZOS decided that they needed to feed elite guys like Alcast content that THEY enjoyed so that they would continue to stream on YouTube and Twitch, which is free advertising for ESO.

Not jumping to any conclusions here.
The performance of those players is directly related to power creep. If the power creep is huge then the numbers of those players will be huge and end game content will have to be more difficult. Yes they started creating more difficult content to accommodate for the performance of their elite players which again skyrocketed because of power creep. They are players too and they have a right to play the game as well. End game content should be hard. That's why there is also normal mode for those who can't do vet mode.

What you don't understand is that ur example with city of ash wasn't much different. When city of ash was the "end game content" it was actually pushing players to their limits. It was literally a DPS test, people in chat had minimum DPS requirements before they take anyone in their group and forums were full with "nerf CoA". The difference is that power creep wasn't wasn't that huge and more people could do competitive DPS to complete end game content.

TelvanniWizard · February 2019

Dear OP, I totally agree with you. Yours is such a well written, well thought essay. Wish I could give you more than one insightful per post. I think adding back damage caps and balancing things around that would help a lot. Right now the enemy design is lazy as hell. Stack mechanics, add a bunch of some millions of health and insane damage, and keep going... So lame... Not interesting nor fun to play that kind of content that, with some balance, could be great for everyone (i. e. with more difficulty levels, as has been suggested, or something like that).

Arciris · February 2019

Thank you for this well thought out and written post.

There is a Power Creep that rampages faster at the game's highest tier while being almost non-existant at lower tiers > the Power Gap becomes wider and wider.
I fear it will soon reach a rupture point, where the ones that are left behind - including new players - will never have a chance to catch up (if the game keeps going in this direction)

Of course you will find a lot of opposition from those "elite" players to cap them in anyway: after all it is very lucrative to be at the top!
And I am not even talking about IRL revenue with outside of the game content/media but simply about the millions of gold made in game by selling carries

Those "Carries" in turn inflate ZOS numbers on completion of the content, and therefore Devs are less likely to perceive an issue with it.

That's the issue with numbers: you can't rely on them too much, they are often misleading, at least when it comes to analysing human behavior.

TelvanniWizard · February 2019

Arciris wrote: »

Thank you for this well thought out and written post.

There is a Power Creep that rampages faster at the game's highest tier while being almost non-existant at lower tiers > the Power Gap becomes wider and wider.
I fear it will soon reach a rupture point, where the ones that are left behind - including new players - will never have a chance to catch up (if the game keeps going in this direction)

Of course you will find a lot of opposition from those "elite" players to cap them in anyway: after all it is very lucrative to be at the top!
And I am not even talking about IRL revenue with outside of the game content/media but simply about the millions of gold made in game by selling carries

Those "Carries" in turn inflate ZOS numbers on completion of the content, and therefore Devs are less likely to perceive an issue with it.

That's the issue with numbers: you can't rely on them too much, they are often misleading, at least when it comes to analysing human behavior.

So true!

Dubhliam · February 2019

This is all well written and all, but I cannot agree with you.

Power creep affects everyone, not just the middle/lower tier.
Therefore the power creep cannot be a solution to your problems.

Also, you talk about vet Cloudrest mechanics.
Power creep never helped anyone learn mechanics.
If you can't finish Cloudrest with 35k DPS, I highly doubt that 1% power creep will change anything. It's not like there are significant burn mechanics there that give players problems.

AgaTheGreat · February 2019

You want to "fix" all of the so called pain points by re-introducing power creep?

The problem is that people don't have what it takes to get better. Why do you think top guilds are like that? They put time and effort into all their runs. They run with the same group a few times a week.

It's not ZoS' fault that there aren't many guilds that offer training. You can't expect an end game raiding guild to teach you craglorn hard modes, you have to learn it with a different team. The only way to get better is to go through the "guild" ladder and actually work on your characters. The problem on PS4 EU for example is that there are very few guilds who actually put time and effort into training new to end game people. It's a huge commitment that is draining the guild leaders because many feel like their guild is stepping stone into a better team (in most cases it's true)

Don't blame the game, blame to community.

Qbiken · February 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Devs (and execs thinking about $$ even more) should ask themselves if 99,9% (and the whole rest of teh game) is worth screwing because of 0,1%. Very tiny but very vocal minority.

Because that is what they are doing now, screwing over 99,9% of playerbase with insane gear/CP power creep...and then stuffing main STORY in there. If they continue....it wont end well, just like any other MMO who tried it.

This below is BIG defeat for both playerbase AND ZOS (monetarily) and clear sign ZOS needs to change what they are doing because they are wasting their time and money on content no one really wants/likes (and yes that content IS like that BECAUSE of insane gear/CP power creep)

"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."

@MikaHR

Those numbers may seem worrisome, but they are probably rigged and do not reflect the reality.
I did some research, only 19% have the "Dawn of Champion" achievment (source: https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109957-dawn-of-a-champion/) , only 18% have the "Alliance War Recruit" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109956-alliance-war-recruit/) , 2,7% have the "Maelstrom Arena Champion" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/125320-maelstrom-arena-champion/) and only 19,6% have reached level 50 (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109935-level-50-hero/) .

It's getting even better: when you look at "First Achievers" section you will see that the first guy reached level 50 on the 11th of june 2015, more than a year after release? :pepesherlockholmesthonk

Conlusion: ESO PS4 players are either lazy as ***, logging in and not doing anything but role playing
or
numbers are wrong
or
I am stupid and cannot interpret them
or
achievments are character bound (which is very unlikely, because I doubt everybody has done Main Quest Chapter 1 on each character (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109916-soul-shriven-in-coldharbour/).

Do you get what I am saying?

Yeah right, PS4 is rigging the numbers now.....

Its numbers that are showing clear picture of what is what. No point arguing the numbers, you can theorize whatever you like but all MMO are pretty consistent in showing exact same thing, ESO is not special in that regard in any way, quite the contrary it is consistent.

Those numbers also includes everyone who ever tried ESO during a free trial week/weekend. And as someone else pointed out, the achievements only update when people actually opens up and look at them. So ye, those numbers has absolutely 0 weight in this topic.

MikaHR · February 2019

Numbers are 100% correct, you being salty about them is your own problem.

Juhasow · February 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Numbers are 100% correct, you being salty about them is your own problem.

Same as You being salty about people being salty is Your own problem.

MikaHR · February 2019

Where am i bein salty? But you being salty enough tpo reply speaks volumes.

TheBonesXXX · February 2019

There's enough power creep.

VaranisArano · February 2019

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

You want to "fix" all of the so called pain points by re-introducing power creep?

The problem is that people don't have what it takes to get better. Why do you think top guilds are like that? They put time and effort into all their runs. They run with the same group a few times a week.

It's not ZoS' fault that there aren't many guilds that offer training. You can't expect an end game raiding guild to teach you craglorn hard modes, you have to learn it with a different team. The only way to get better is to go through the "guild" ladder and actually work on your characters. The problem on PS4 EU for example is that there are very few guilds who actually put time and effort into training new to end game people. It's a huge commitment that is draining the guild leaders because many feel like their guild is stepping stone into a better team (in most cases it's true)

Don't blame the game, blame to community.

Can we also blame the game that doesn't teach players how to do proper DPS beyond what's required for overland questing?

ESO utterly fails to teach players how to actually perform at the level required for end-game content. You need guilds and streamers and build-makers for that. The game itself will not prepare you.

One of the points made in the OP's post is that the very progression guilds you are pointing to are struggling with bashing their heads in against the new content with its stacked mechanics and low margins for error.

That's something I pointed out earlier this thread - the DPS/experience gap. Some guilds are able to complete the content, and so repeated completions become easier due to experience even if ZOS nerfs their skill/class/gear. Some guilds/players are struggling to complete already, so when ZOS nerfs class/gear/skills, they dont have experience to fall back on and suffer more than the top tier.

So we actually can blame the game. ESO doesnt prepare players well, which puts the burden on guilds. Then, progression guilds are exactly who suffers the most from the constant rounds of nerfs and major gameplay changes that the Devs roll out with every update because they don't have the top tier's experience of completions to fall back on. As end game content continues to build into stacked mechanics and low margins for error, the situation gets worse (and anecdotally, less fun) for guilds and their members.

Its easy to say people don't have what it takes to get better.

The point of what's being discussed here is that the design of new content and the nerfs/gameplay changes aimed at the top tier players is making it disproportionately harder on the middle tier of players who are trying to get better because they suffer more than the top tier who can already complete the content.

The contention is that ZOS has created a gap between the high tier and middle tier of players, and that by continuing to develop endgame content featuring stacked mechanics and punishing margins for error which benefit those who have completion experience, they are widening that gap.

I'm not sure that DPS caps and power creep are the answer, but I don't have an answer to the situation.

mairwen85 · February 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Numbers are 100% correct, you being salty about them is your own problem.

The numbers are 100% for the context in which you presented them, I agree. But the problem is a) source, b) sample size, c) intelligent analysis. The primary stumbling block for that analysis is the retention rate. Example: How many players bought the game in 2015, then stopped playing in 2016? They (and other cases) count toward the total, hence also affect the percentages for completion rates.

I'm not saying that more people started on free trials (stopped when ended), or stopped playing than carried on with it -- I wouldn't know, I don't have the figures and trends to make that claim, or any assumption

. What I am saying is that user churn is not accounted for in those numbers. The values are skewed by that. Intelligent analysis can only take place when adequate margins and boundaries are set against the numbers that encompass and allow for such tolerances, and help identify patterns.

Yes, your numbers are 100% correct for the context in which you presented them, but the context is only halfway correct for meaningful interpretation -- numbers don't lie, but they can omit many truths.

Edit: sausage fingers

mikwin · February 2019

If we just removed all skills from the game and we all did 50k light attacks, do you think that's going to magically make it so everyone can beat any trial? What about the mechanics?

Does capping dps make it so every tank in the game can tank all trials all of a sudden?

The only way to have the majority of all players beating content like vcr 3 is to make the difficulty as low as ncr3, then it would be so boring no one would even play trials.

You could give players that can't beat these trials 50% more dps than the players that can and it still wont make any difference, its a case of getting good and that's it.

Nebthet78 · February 2019

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

You want to "fix" all of the so called pain points by re-introducing power creep?

The problem is that people don't have what it takes to get better. Why do you think top guilds are like that? They put time and effort into all their runs. They run with the same group a few times a week.

It's not ZoS' fault that there aren't many guilds that offer training. You can't expect an end game raiding guild to teach you craglorn hard modes, you have to learn it with a different team. The only way to get better is to go through the "guild" ladder and actually work on your characters. The problem on PS4 EU for example is that there are very few guilds who actually put time and effort into training new to end game people. It's a huge commitment that is draining the guild leaders because many feel like their guild is stepping stone into a better team (in most cases it's true)

Don't blame the game, blame to community.

No. I want to fix a large part of the problem by CAPPING DPS to 50k while allowing continued Power Creep for the Middle and Lower Tiered players. Those, who who cannot take advantage of animation cancelling or effectively attack weave due to the horrendous server performance. Thus, preventing the ceiling from rising any further while allowing the lower floors to slowly rise to near that level.

Yes. It is ZOS' fault players are not properly prepared for end game content. Anmation cancelling is not taught in ESO because it's a BUG, not an actual true intended feature of the game; nor is there proper training for attack weaving. Players have to go outside of the game, to Youtube or other places to get this information.

This topic thread here, actually greatly shows the majority of issues a large portion of the player base has with Animation cancelling and attack weaving in the game.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458856/does-anyone-else-have-issue-with-light-attack-weaving-on-a-technical-level/p1

Additionally, the level difference between Normal and Veteran and some Hard Mode Dungeons and Trials is the difference between Day and Night. Many players find Normal too easy, but find Veteran mind numbingly hard, and worst of all, Not Fun.
There aren't proper stepping stones to Progression.
This is why I'm also suggesting ZOS makes a third tier of difficulty between Normal and Vet that will help to properly train players the mechanics of the dungeon. Perhaps they could even put in an option tutorial within it, and players could specify which boss they want to learn at that time. This would allow them to learn and prepare for the next level progression.
We can't make normal dungeons harder, because that locks the lowest tiered players out of content.

What's the point of creating these dungeons and trials when 95% of players don't want to play them?? The goal, at end game is getting more and more players into the content. Not cutting them out of it and in order for that to happen, ZOS has to completely stop the difficulty ceiling from rising any further, and allow these players to progress.
Unfortunately, for the last 2 years, while ZOS was trying to lower the ceiling and raise the floor, all they did was raise the ceiling and create an even wider gap between that and the Middle Tiered players.
By trying to Nerf what the Elite End game players use, and how they play, all they ended up doing was nerfing the Middle Tiered players the most.

ZOS should also not be releasing content or armour designed around end game Elite players, Youtuber and Twitch streamers, and their ability to animation cancel/light attack weave. Just because the 1% can pull 50k+ dps, doesn't mean the 50% of Middle Tier players can.

Look, if I had the technical know-how, I'd actually create a Add-on that would allow you to put your rotation in and then allow that to play through where you had to match the rotation as it game up on the screen. Think, Legends of Dragoon style game play, having to press the button at the right time the square came up on the screen. And then allow, as you get more comfortable with the parse, to make the rotation faster, until you eventually hit those numbers, either throught getting quicker clicking the buttons, or through the change up within your rotation.

Problem is; I don't know how to make one of those.... and second... Someone should have to. Mechanics and game play should be fairly intuitive, but they aren't in this game. Part of it is due to ZOS not including proper tutorials where it's needed, and taking advantage of bugs to increase difficulty where they shouldn't. A large part is also due to a good majority of the player base of this game coming from the single player Elder Scrolls games. Not, from another MMO. The learning curve from the ES games to playing an ESO MMO is actually rather high, it's confusing and a lot of people can't wrap their heads around it.

Most Middle Tiered players have made that transition. They have the baseline of the skills, but can't take advantage of rotations requiring the use of a systematic bug to increase their DPS properly, even though some will get a good rotation learned. hitting between 30-35k is extremely hard. Add unforgiving mechanics in new Vet Dungeons and Trials, where these players go to progress and get better, and you end up with players having less and less fun, getting frustrated, hating the content, and eventually leaving. Taking longer and longer breaks.

You actually want content, where the Middle Tiered player can complete it... and then they want to go back and switch out one or two of their Core team players from time to time and bring in someone who maybe can't get 25-30k DPS through runs with them, to train them in the mechanics, so they get better, feel accomplished, and feel included. So these players can gain the confidence they need to keep pushing themselves to get better.
What you don't want, is high end players taking advantage of others and selling runs for 2+million gold on an increasing basis.

And now we are at a point, where ZOS has decided that once you reach 810CP for the foreseeable future (at least the next year) they are not allowing this to increase at all. Therefore freezing any progression (even if it was only 0.5-1%) these players might have received, that might have pushed them to keep trying. No Progression in Power = No Motiivation to condtinue to do the content.

Example: Why buy the new Chapter, when you won't get the benefit of the power creep that comes with more XP earned? Some say progressing the story itsself will be enough.. but... I don't have to buy the Chapter to do that. I can watch a streamer go through that for me, and I still get the story. I'm not going to waste that XP seeing as we don't even know what ZOS is going to do to fix this issue. I don't think ZOS even knows.

But, through threads like this... ZOS can at least take the time to read players concerns, and get a few ideas on what can be done to alleviate the glaring issue of the different skill levels in this game, so they can find a way to lessen this gap. It also lets them know there are serious pain points in other areas they may not have considered that need addressing that are faced by these players.