@squinceybones
Sorry, was a meandering post that I've cleaned up now. Content is retro-actively laddered. This is not an issue, and makes perfect sense.
Issue is people wanting the new content, the extended content at the level of release before they are ready for it -- and expecting it to accommodate for them.
AC will shave .1-.3s off your skill blocks in a rotation. Think of the diagram below as your rotation where the pipe (|) represents the boundaries of the GCD.
| {SKILL | } { SKILL | } {SKILL | }
Most skill animations overrun those boundaries by a small amount, we're talking fractions of seconds here. AC might shave up to 1s per 10s per rotation, in other words 1 more skill fired per block of 10. Either way, it's not going to make your dps jump from 10K to 50K. It'll more likely add a negligible amount of 1K, remarkably raising 10K to 11K dps.
| { SKILL } | { SKILL } | { SKILL }
AC is not what makes people dps machines. Light attack weaving with continuous rotation and decent gear is. That's a different subject (see linked post). Most players only AC (via bar swap) on especially long running anims as there's no point on the shorter ones, because, ironically, people who over-AC actually harm their dps as they rhythmically prepare themselves for the next skill too early, stopping it from firing at all(!)
Devs (and execs thinking about $$ even more) should ask themselves if 99,9% (and the whole rest of teh game) is worth screwing because of 0,1%. Very tiny but very vocal minority.
Because that is what they are doing now, screwing over 99,9% of playerbase with insane gear/CP power creep...and then stuffing main STORY in there. If they continue....it wont end well, just like any other MMO who tried it.
This below is BIG defeat for both playerbase AND ZOS (monetarily) and clear sign ZOS needs to change what they are doing because they are wasting their time and money on content no one really wants/likes (and yes that content IS like that BECAUSE of insane gear/CP power creep)
"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.
4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.
2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.
1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.
1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.
0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.
When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."
DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »Devs (and execs thinking about $$ even more) should ask themselves if 99,9% (and the whole rest of teh game) is worth screwing because of 0,1%. Very tiny but very vocal minority.
Because that is what they are doing now, screwing over 99,9% of playerbase with insane gear/CP power creep...and then stuffing main STORY in there. If they continue....it wont end well, just like any other MMO who tried it.
This below is BIG defeat for both playerbase AND ZOS (monetarily) and clear sign ZOS needs to change what they are doing because they are wasting their time and money on content no one really wants/likes (and yes that content IS like that BECAUSE of insane gear/CP power creep)
"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.
4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.
2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.
1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.
1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.
0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.
When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."
@MikaHR
Those numbers may seem worrisome, but they are probably rigged and do not reflect the reality.
I did some research, only 19% have the "Dawn of Champion" achievment (source: https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109957-dawn-of-a-champion/) , only 18% have the "Alliance War Recruit" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109956-alliance-war-recruit/) , 2,7% have the "Maelstrom Arena Champion" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/125320-maelstrom-arena-champion/) and only 19,6% have reached level 50 (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109935-level-50-hero/) .
It's getting even better: when you look at "First Achievers" section you will see that the first guy reached level 50 on the 11th of june 2015, more than a year after release? :pepesherlockholmesthonk
Conlusion: ESO PS4 players are either lazy as ***, logging in and not doing anything but role playing
or
numbers are wrong
or
I am stupid and cannot interpret them
or
achievments are character bound (which is very unlikely, because I doubt everybody has done Main Quest Chapter 1 on each character (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109916-soul-shriven-in-coldharbour/).
Do you get what I am saying?
TheInfernalRage wrote: »
Animation cancelling won't increase your dps magically.; it only helps a player tighten up their rotation.
What @Agalloch actually means is that many players can't exceed 20K because they don't understand what attack weaving is. Second to that they assume the cast animation to work as the timer for GCD. The latter point is flawed as most animations overrun it.
For all those against bar swapping or block tapping to exit cast animations that overrun the GCD, take your complaint to ZoS and demand they ensure all cast animations last exactly 0.9s -- that way animation cancelling becomes a moot point in this kind of conversation.
@squinceybones that is exactly my point. Content difficulty is laddered in retrospect. It's not intended to be grabbed by 'younger' players at release and smashed through, but as an extension to the main game and to be worked toward.
I have yet to beat vCR+2, but my guild has been doing trials on a weekly basis starting at nCR+0, growing toward the goal of v+3. We're nowhere near it yet... But eventually.
This is something I feel gets overlooked, much as you explain it. It's there to provide that stepwise progression.
However, I will advocate new DLC dungeons be released with a 3tier difficulty.
VaranisArano wrote: »I think there's some interesting points being made here worth delving into.
1. High DPS as QOL in trials and dungeons.
As overall DPS has increased due to power creep, ZOS has designed dungeons and trials that require higher DPS.
Moreover, guilds and even PUGs have begun to expect higher DPS, even higher than is required to complete the content. This is for quality of life reasons. Not only can higher DPS skip some mechanics, it also lessens the time required for the group to perform mechanics perfectly.
Thus, ZOS designing mechanics for high DPS is driving players to seek higher DPS to cope with those very mechanics. Its a feedback loop.
2. Players should be able to (eventually) complete ALL the content they paid for.
Here's where I'm not so sure.
Should players in fact be able to eventually reach sufficient DPS to complete ALL content through power creep?
Where does player skill play a part? Or are we assuming that we would have a combat overhaul that makes combat more reliant on player skill as opposed to internet connection/keyboard? Is a balance there even possible?
VaranisArano wrote: »Um, apologies for the bit at the end that apparently got my rather lengthy post analyzing the PS4 statistics removed. It was intended to reference a well-known quote, not bait, but fair enough. I'm sorry.
My main point, which I think is on topic for this thread, was that the statistics aren't precise enough to prove that a DPS Gap or difficulty spike exists that is preventing players from progressing through the DLC dungeons. We can't use it to isolate variables like the length of time that a DLC has been out, or the number of active players/subscribers who have the DLC.
For example, I look at this part: "When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."
On the face of it, there's a large gap in completion rates between SotH and HotR. Was difficulty the main cause of that?
Well, we can't isolate that variable from the data given. Because there's also a very large time gap between their release, from July 2016 to August 2017. Without data on DLC ownership over time, we can't isolate time as a factor.
Other factors to consider, not an exhaustive list:
- Active ESO+ subscribers and DLC owners
- Desirability of meta monster helms and gear
- timing of motif releases
- relative percentage of Undaunted Pledge rotations
In short, we just don't have the data from the PS4 trophies to actually figure out if the difficulty is what's causing a gap in players completing the dungeons, or even if such a gap actually exists in the end-game community.
Unfortunately. I'd love to have the actual data. If there is a gap occurring due to increased difficulty, stacked mechanics, and low margins of error, we ought to be able to isolate the variables and see it reflected in the completion rate data.
DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »Devs (and execs thinking about $$ even more) should ask themselves if 99,9% (and the whole rest of teh game) is worth screwing because of 0,1%. Very tiny but very vocal minority.
Because that is what they are doing now, screwing over 99,9% of playerbase with insane gear/CP power creep...and then stuffing main STORY in there. If they continue....it wont end well, just like any other MMO who tried it.
This below is BIG defeat for both playerbase AND ZOS (monetarily) and clear sign ZOS needs to change what they are doing because they are wasting their time and money on content no one really wants/likes (and yes that content IS like that BECAUSE of insane gear/CP power creep)
"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.
4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.
2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.
1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.
1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.
0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.
When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."
@MikaHR
Those numbers may seem worrisome, but they are probably rigged and do not reflect the reality.
I did some research, only 19% have the "Dawn of Champion" achievment (source: https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109957-dawn-of-a-champion/) , only 18% have the "Alliance War Recruit" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109956-alliance-war-recruit/) , 2,7% have the "Maelstrom Arena Champion" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/125320-maelstrom-arena-champion/) and only 19,6% have reached level 50 (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109935-level-50-hero/) .
It's getting even better: when you look at "First Achievers" section you will see that the first guy reached level 50 on the 11th of june 2015, more than a year after release? :pepesherlockholmesthonk
Conlusion: ESO PS4 players are either lazy as ***, logging in and not doing anything but role playing
or
numbers are wrong
or
I am stupid and cannot interpret them
or
achievments are character bound (which is very unlikely, because I doubt everybody has done Main Quest Chapter 1 on each character (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109916-soul-shriven-in-coldharbour/).
Do you get what I am saying?
Not jumping to any conclusions here.Emma_Overload wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »I do not understand how some (very few) think ESO has power atrophy instead of power creep.
It has been very obvious the game has had power creep as challenging or even somewhat challenging instances are so much easier today than a year or two ago. vMA is a great example as their scores have increased over time, not decreased as would occur with power atrophy.
VMA is actually an example of power atrophy. Thanks to the massive nerf to damage shields, VMA is harder than ever for some Magicka classes. Doesn't matter how much DPS has creeped up, the content is harder overall because of reduced defensive capabilities. Sustain has also been nerfed severely since VMA launched. Where is the creep?
Which classes excatly ? Name 1 class that have harder time to complete vMA right now then in 2015 when it was released.
Use the same gear/CP as you did in 2015. and tell us is if it harder/easier today than "back in 2015."
If you dont have the gear/CP it is harder...because of nerfs...that happend BECASUE of insane gear/CP power creep. Gear power creep that regular player (99,9% of playerbase) who might attempt vMA for the first time is not riding as only miniscule number of players are interested in raiding.Emma_Overload wrote: »Power creep is a myth. What you guys are talking about is DPS creep. I remember when Vet COA2 was the hardest dungeon in the game. It took me several attempts with various pugs to finally complete it, but it WAS puggable. It was hard, but nothing about it was so complicated that you couldn't explain it in one sentence in chat.
Now we have these ridiculously complicated DLC dungeons. They are effectively unpuggable and impractical to explain without voice comms. My DPS may be hundred times higher than the pre-DLC era, but it doesn't matter because the difficulty of the top content has far outstripped DPS.
I don't think it should be required to watch hours of Alcast videos to complete content. I liked the difficulty of the old ESO, and I suspect many, many players would agree with me.
You do realize that content difficulty skyrocketed because of power creep right?
Bingo. Except vast majority of people aint riding the insane power creep (just look at stats of how many people finished newest DLC dungeons - 0,1%).
It is lose situation for other 99,9%.
Except the people defending that insane power creep like CP are ironically the people who complain about power creep creating these hard DLC dungeons that they cant finish. They are literally defending the things that indirectly create their issues in the first place.
You're jumping to conclusions. Correct me if I'm wrong (with proof), but ZOS has never explained why they started putting these ridiculously complicated mechanics in the 4-man dungeons. I don't think "power creep" is the reason, if it exists at all. I think the most likely reason is that ZOS decided that they needed to feed elite guys like Alcast content that THEY enjoyed so that they would continue to stream on YouTube and Twitch, which is free advertising for ESO.
Thank you for this well thought out and written post.
There is a Power Creep that rampages faster at the game's highest tier while being almost non-existant at lower tiers > the Power Gap becomes wider and wider.
I fear it will soon reach a rupture point, where the ones that are left behind - including new players - will never have a chance to catch up (if the game keeps going in this direction)
Of course you will find a lot of opposition from those "elite" players to cap them in anyway: after all it is very lucrative to be at the top!
And I am not even talking about IRL revenue with outside of the game content/media but simply about the millions of gold made in game by selling carries
Those "Carries" in turn inflate ZOS numbers on completion of the content, and therefore Devs are less likely to perceive an issue with it.
That's the issue with numbers: you can't rely on them too much, they are often misleading, at least when it comes to analysing human behavior.
DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »Devs (and execs thinking about $$ even more) should ask themselves if 99,9% (and the whole rest of teh game) is worth screwing because of 0,1%. Very tiny but very vocal minority.
Because that is what they are doing now, screwing over 99,9% of playerbase with insane gear/CP power creep...and then stuffing main STORY in there. If they continue....it wont end well, just like any other MMO who tried it.
This below is BIG defeat for both playerbase AND ZOS (monetarily) and clear sign ZOS needs to change what they are doing because they are wasting their time and money on content no one really wants/likes (and yes that content IS like that BECAUSE of insane gear/CP power creep)
"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.
4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.
2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.
1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.
1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.
0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.
When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."
@MikaHR
Those numbers may seem worrisome, but they are probably rigged and do not reflect the reality.
I did some research, only 19% have the "Dawn of Champion" achievment (source: https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109957-dawn-of-a-champion/) , only 18% have the "Alliance War Recruit" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109956-alliance-war-recruit/) , 2,7% have the "Maelstrom Arena Champion" achievment (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/125320-maelstrom-arena-champion/) and only 19,6% have reached level 50 (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109935-level-50-hero/) .
It's getting even better: when you look at "First Achievers" section you will see that the first guy reached level 50 on the 11th of june 2015, more than a year after release? :pepesherlockholmesthonk
Conlusion: ESO PS4 players are either lazy as ***, logging in and not doing anything but role playing
or
numbers are wrong
or
I am stupid and cannot interpret them
or
achievments are character bound (which is very unlikely, because I doubt everybody has done Main Quest Chapter 1 on each character (https://www.exophase.com/trophy/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-ps4/109916-soul-shriven-in-coldharbour/).
Do you get what I am saying?
Yeah right, PS4 is rigging the numbers now.....
Its numbers that are showing clear picture of what is what. No point arguing the numbers, you can theorize whatever you like but all MMO are pretty consistent in showing exact same thing, ESO is not special in that regard in any way, quite the contrary it is consistent.
AgaTheGreat wrote: »You want to "fix" all of the so called pain points by re-introducing power creep?
The problem is that people don't have what it takes to get better. Why do you think top guilds are like that? They put time and effort into all their runs. They run with the same group a few times a week.
It's not ZoS' fault that there aren't many guilds that offer training. You can't expect an end game raiding guild to teach you craglorn hard modes, you have to learn it with a different team. The only way to get better is to go through the "guild" ladder and actually work on your characters. The problem on PS4 EU for example is that there are very few guilds who actually put time and effort into training new to end game people. It's a huge commitment that is draining the guild leaders because many feel like their guild is stepping stone into a better team (in most cases it's true)
Don't blame the game, blame to community.
Numbers are 100% correct, you being salty about them is your own problem.
AgaTheGreat wrote: »You want to "fix" all of the so called pain points by re-introducing power creep?
The problem is that people don't have what it takes to get better. Why do you think top guilds are like that? They put time and effort into all their runs. They run with the same group a few times a week.
It's not ZoS' fault that there aren't many guilds that offer training. You can't expect an end game raiding guild to teach you craglorn hard modes, you have to learn it with a different team. The only way to get better is to go through the "guild" ladder and actually work on your characters. The problem on PS4 EU for example is that there are very few guilds who actually put time and effort into training new to end game people. It's a huge commitment that is draining the guild leaders because many feel like their guild is stepping stone into a better team (in most cases it's true)
Don't blame the game, blame to community.