Maintenance for the week of February 18:
• [COMPLETE] Xbox One: EU megaserver for maintenance – February 20, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 4.3.4 is available. You can find the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459684/
The Wrathstone DLC Game Pack and Update 21 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454456/

Argonian racials 4.3.3

Kulvar
Kulvar
✭✭✭
Argonians are at the bottom. Nothing changed in this patch for them.

+1000 Max Magicka (MagDD, Healer)
+6% Healing Done (Healer)
Not enough for them to compete in the healer role as they're beneath Breton, Altmer and Khajiits.

Their only advantage is a rigid and unreliable restoration of ressources when drinking a potion.
Which is too effective in PvP, but require to have potion cooldown low on engagement, otherwise it's as if they did not have this passive.

Spreading the restoration over time would solve the PvP unbalance and give some space to improve the racials they have access to.

Those race/name change tokens will probably be used as soon as patch hit live in this state.
Rest in Hist, Argonians.
Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The changes keep Argonians where they have been for awhile. Sustain and help with healing. As Validify stated, they are mostly unchanged with this update outside of giving a flat max stat vs a %.

    6% is a pretty sweet boost to healing. I cannot think of a full time buff that offers such a sweet boost. Couple in the sustain from using potions and they look good.

    Maybe provide some numbers. Zos only has time for threads that provide actual information. Not warm fuzzy feelings.
    Really, idk
  • Anyron
    Anyron
    ✭✭✭
    theres many ways how to fix argonians. but why hey should try it? instead they can just die whole race because we are now:

    Healing (magicka races)
    worse then Altmer
    Breton
    Khajiit
    Dunmer

    better than None


    DPS ( magicka races )
    worse than Altmer
    Breton
    Khajiit
    Dunmer


    all because resourceful. DELETE that useless sh*t and give us something useful.

    New resourceful
    Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. increases your Magicka, Stamina and health recovery by 100 for 45s when you drink a potion

    or

    Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion
    increase spell damage by 250 for 45s when you drink a potion


    This could help to solve resourceful as useless overrated passive useful now only on tanks or hybrid builds to support Healers + dps
    Edited by Anyron on February 11, 2019 8:36PM
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am slowly losing hope...

    It seems that after next patch I will have to limit my activities to only doing crafting quest, daily quest & housing.
    End game content, both PvE & PvP will be on hold for me.

    And yes, I refuse to race change. Was Argonian since day 1. Will do my best to adapt, but at this point I don't know if I will succeed. Chances for that are slim.

    On the other hand all those "fake" Argonians min-maxers will be gone. ;)

    And one more thing:
    If this goes live, saying that Argonian is OP will simply cause people to laugh at you... :joy:
  • xaraan
    xaraan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Nerfing the support passives of Argonians was fine, even arguably needed in some cases.

    But they should have gotten a buff to the damage potential of the race in return IMO.

    This might sound like I'm suggesting crazy buffs, but I'm really not.

    The 1K max mag bonus they get makes them bottom tier in races that get magicka bonuses in pve parses and over races that do not get any bonus in that area. This is good IMO. They should get the same to Stam - a 1K bonus, giving them enough to be worse than stam bonus races at stam parses, but maybe a little better than races that get all mag bonuses. Also lore wise, seems like a race immune to disease and known for surviving in a harsh land would have a solid stamina.

    This would also prevent the stealth nerf to health for tank builds where they will have to take points out of health somewhere to put into stam to raise it up higher than magicka now.

    I think the potion passive is fine where it's at, the burst creates an interesting dynamic even in pve that may not help vs target dummies, but can be a useful and very flavorful racial skill in fights. Some will still think its OP in pvp, but it's really not vs what some other races get ongoing with sustain bonuses.

    In the end, if you took Orc and Argonian out of the racial mix and looked at all the changes, you might take a small issue with something here or there, but overall it looks very balanced. Those two guys seem to the outlier IMO of the changes, with one getting a little too much love and one not enough.

    Note: yes, I play all argonians, no I haven't always and have changed straight from meta races to argonians in same gear/cp etc and have seen the difference first hand as I've run regular content, end game pve and pvp on various characters. The argonian passives do not make up for the loss of those buffs in certain roles as much as one thinks even on live, after these changes it definitely won't. I don't even think a 1K stam buff will make up for it, but I think it's a good starting place.
    Xaraan • NA • PC • AD • Argonian (x15):
    Xaraan - (Grand Master Crafter) - NB-Tank
    Xa-Raan - (Sun's Dusk Reaper) - Vampire Magicka-Nightblade
    Xaraan-dar - (Master Thief) - Stamina-Nightblade
    Xaraanosaurus - (Hist Shadow) - DK-Tank
    Xãraan - (Forge Breaker) - Magicka-DK
    Xa Raan - (Shehai Shatterer) - Stamina-DK
    Xaraanosaur - (Shadow Breaker) - Templar-Tank
    Xåraan - (Monster Hunter) - Magicka-Templar
    Xaraana - (Explorer) - Stamina-Templar
    Xaraanodon - (Ophidian Overlord) - Warden-Tank
    Xäraan - (Master Angler) - Magicka-Warden
    Xâraan - (Paragon) - Stamina-Warden
    Xaraanok - (Centurion) - Sorc-Tank
    Xaraanosorcus - (Magnanamous)- Magicka-Sorc
    Xa'Raan - (Apex Predator) - WW Stamina-Sorc
  • ccmedaddy
    ccmedaddy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    This idea that all races should offer similar generic offensive stats for the purpose of making them equal in endgame PvE is complete hogwash. Resourceful remains one of the best utility passives in the game and I'm 100% against removing this passive in favor of another boring spell dmg/magicka passive that you can already get with Altmer, Breton and Dunmer.

    Good thing ZOS is giving out race change tokens for those who are primarily concerned about PvE DPS, eh?
    dunmer magblade - flawless conqueror
    argonian magden - flawless conqueror
    argonian magplar - flawless conqueror
    dunmer magdk - flawless conqueror
    altmer magsorc - flawless conqueror
    orc werewolf stamsorc - flawless conqueror
    orc stamplar - flawless conqueror
    redguard stamblade - flawless conqueror
    nord stamdk - lvl 5, lost forever in coldharbor
  • rabidrufus64
    rabidrufus64
    ✭✭✭
    I am slowly losing hope...

    It seems that after next patch I will have to limit my activities to only doing crafting quest, daily quest & housing.
    End game content, both PvE & PvP will be on hold for me.

    And yes, I refuse to race change. Was Argonian since day 1. Will do my best to adapt, but at this point I don't know if I will succeed. Chances for that are slim.

    On the other hand all those "fake" Argonians min-maxers will be gone. ;)

    And one more thing:
    If this goes live, saying that Argonian is OP will simply cause people to laugh at you... :joy:

    yup! all the fake argonians who play it for the passives and not the race will all go away :D cuz i play argonian simply because i like the race and i play it stam with briarheart, veledrith and VO
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anyron wrote: »
    theres many ways how to fix argonians. but why hey should try it? instead they can just die whole race because we are now:

    Healing (magicka races)
    worse then Altmer
    Breton
    Khajiit
    Dunmer

    better than None


    DPS ( magicka races )
    worse than Altmer
    Breton
    Khajiit
    Dunmer


    all because resourceful. DELETE that useless sh*t and give us something useful.

    New resourceful
    Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. increases your Magicka, Stamina and health recovery by 100 for 45s when you drink a potion

    or

    Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion
    increase spell damage by 250 for 45s when you drink a potion


    This could help to solve resourceful as useless overrated passive useful now only on tanks or hybrid builds to support Healers + dps

    Zos has time for well thought information. If you offer substance to support your bold claims it might get some attention. Just offering your opinion without basis is virtually meaningless.

    So give us real information.
    Really, idk
  • Kulvar
    Kulvar
    ✭✭✭
    I will keep playing my Argonian as I hate changing character. I won't use the tokens they'll give when Wrathstone go live, but many will.
    I was just hoping that they would give bits of bonuses on racials to make Argonian more balanced in other roles than Healer, for I play mostly Stam DD or Hybrid DD.
    There are ways to reduce the gap between Argonians and the top races.

    I don't want "boring flat bonuses" too, but Resourceful is hindering Argonians low in PvE for PvP reasons.
    Reworking Resourceful so it offer a spread over time restoration of ressources while potion is on cooldown would remove the PvP gamble and allow some lift of the race in PvE.
    Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact
  • phantasmalD
    phantasmalD
    ✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    6% is a pretty sweet boost to healing. I cannot think of a full time buff that offers such a sweet boost.
    258 damage. Unless you have like 2.2k+ base damage it gives you higher numbers than 6% healing done. Not like it really counts cause you can easily overheal with Redguard.
    But what really counts is that 258 damage is vastly more flexible, also boosting damage.
    Did you just not like Argonians before, or do you think they are genuinely 'ruined' now?
    I guess somewhat? The getting shoehorned into healer role is kinda bleh.
    And it's just boring to only get nerfed and otherwise stay mostly the same in a patch that was supposed to improve race-role choices. Stagnation is dull.
    [*]Allow more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing.
    • This goal was one of our largest targets for this pass, since many playstyles had only one option for what was viable. This was done by converting percent bonuses into flat ones so they provide similar bonuses to all playstyles. Please note that these flat values will now scale with other % modifiers, so there will be less of a delta between builds. We also expanded many of the interactions and proc conditions for the passives, so more builds could engage with them and allow for improved diversity.

    Only thing argonians really have is a jack-of-all-trade recovery that is only really good in PvP.
  • Sinolai
    Sinolai
    ✭✭✭✭
    Kulvar wrote: »
    Argonians are at the bottom. Nothing changed in this patch for them.

    +1000 Max Magicka (MagDD, Healer)
    +6% Healing Done (Healer)
    Not enough for them to compete in the healer role as they're beneath Breton, Altmer and Khajiits.

    I think you can remove Altmer from the list. They have no sustain passives anymore.
  • thesoundofwolf
    thesoundofwolf
    ✭✭✭
    I just am tired of all these cry baby threads without testing to be honest. Get off your duff and try it out.
    "I try to create sympathy for my characters, then turn the monsters loose."– Stephen King
    Twitter | Twitch
    Your skins clears mean nothing to me if you can't do vMA.


  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kulvar wrote: »
    Argonians are at the bottom. Nothing changed in this patch for them.

    +1000 Max Magicka (MagDD, Healer)
    +6% Healing Done (Healer)
    Not enough for them to compete in the healer role as they're beneath Breton, Altmer and Khajiits.

    Their only advantage is a rigid and unreliable restoration of ressources when drinking a potion.
    Which is too effective in PvP, but require to have potion cooldown low on engagement, otherwise it's as if they did not have this passive.

    Spreading the restoration over time would solve the PvP unbalance and give some space to improve the racials they have access to.

    Those race/name change tokens will probably be used as soon as patch hit live in this state.
    Rest in Hist, Argonians.

    Since Argonians' signature passive is strong in PvP than PvE, and further since they were likely to stay tuned for healing and/or tanking, they were always likely to come out of these changes as being meh to pretty weak in PvE, and particularly weak in PvE damage.

    And here we are.
  • zaria
    zaria
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Anyron wrote: »
    theres many ways how to fix argonians. but why hey should try it? instead they can just die whole race because we are now:

    Healing (magicka races)
    worse then Altmer
    Breton
    Khajiit
    Dunmer

    better than None


    DPS ( magicka races )
    worse than Altmer
    Breton
    Khajiit
    Dunmer


    all because resourceful. DELETE that useless sh*t and give us something useful.

    New resourceful
    Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. increases your Magicka, Stamina and health recovery by 100 for 45s when you drink a potion

    or

    Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion
    increase spell damage by 250 for 45s when you drink a potion


    This could help to solve resourceful as useless overrated passive useful now only on tanks or hybrid builds to support Healers + dps
    For healing Breton might be better but Altmer has no sustain, Dunmer is just as good, Khajiit has some sustain.
    For magic DD you are probably correct.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    6% is a pretty sweet boost to healing. I cannot think of a full time buff that offers such a sweet boost.
    258 damage. Unless you have like 2.2k+ base damage it gives you higher numbers than 6% healing done. Not like it really counts cause you can easily overheal with Redguard.
    But what really counts is that 258 damage is vastly more flexible, also boosting damage.
    .

    1. it would be good to see the calculations.
    2. you also must take into account sustain. You cannot compare only certain passives without looking at the full picture.

    Also, we are not talking damage, but heals and Argonian has had a passive related to heals since the start (and sustain related to potions). Zos has clearly stated they intend to keep the flavor of each race.

    In other words, Argonian has never been intended to do the damage an Altmer or Dunmer can do. It has been a combination of things, healing, sustain and an little max stat. I do not think it matters if one things a damage stat boost is more flexible as Zos is not trying to make all races the same as you seem to want.

    But again, You are not really providing support for your opinion. Zos expects real information.
    Edited by idk on February 11, 2019 10:27PM
    Really, idk
  • phantasmalD
    phantasmalD
    ✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    Also, we are not talking damage, but heals and Argonian has had a passive related to heals since the start (and sustain related to potions). Zos has clearly stated they intend to keep the flavor of each race.

    And Bosmer had stealth and Dunmer had fire damage boost and so on.
    Yes, ZoS indeed seems keen on keeping this one but I don't like it and that's why I'm petitioning for a change. It's boring, limited, not particularly powerful and not even very lore friendly, or at least there are better options lorewise.
    But again, You are not really providing support for your opinion. Zos expects real information.
    I already did so a couple of times in other threads, the fact that you didn't read them does not mean that I haven't backed up my claims. If ZoS is interested in my opinion they already got it.
    Cries wrote: »
    Also no way altmer is a better healer then argonian and no way redguard is a better tank.

    Just 258 spell damage itself gives you stronger heals than 6% healing done, healing skills also scale of max spell damage and magicka.
    Quick build on PTS to showcase this:
    xezhdhk8bj58.jpg
    8pdyl17svlkg.jpg
    Same build, only difference is that on the first picture I refunded Life Mender and triggered Major Courage.
    On the second picture I bought Life Mender and refunded Resourceful (so I have -1000 magicka compared to the first one). [NOTE: this means the first picture has +258 damage and +1000 magicka compared to the second one]

    In 4.3.0 Altmers also had better magicka return passive (575/6 = 95 vs 3600/45 = 80). That's no longer the case but things can still change.
    And Bretons had better recovery and higher DPS than Altmers [in damage parses] so if Breton >> Altmer and Altmer >> Argonian then obviously Breton >> Argonian.

    Haven't done any theorycrafting on Redguard tanks but they have crazy good stamina sustain from what I can see.
    ccmedaddy wrote: »
    No one cares how much DPS Argonians do because they're good at everything else. ZOS is giving you 3 race change tokens. Use them and leave the Argonian race alone.

    One of the main goals was to increase freedom when choosing race/role/class combination.
    ccmedaddy wrote: »

    Buffing Argonians' offensive stats will inevitably lead to their utility passives being nerfed. Just race change your toon and leave the rest of us Argonians alone.

    Exchanging healing done for spell damage would actually only make them better healers, as I demostrated above. [and I don't mind a small nerf to the potion passive]
    Ajax_22 wrote: »
    ebls_BR wrote: »
    As someone stated, they are not the best healers, they are not even the second. 258 spell damage and 1875/2000 magicka make heals stronger than 1000 magicka and 6% healing done. Just test yourself. So Altmers and Dunmers are better healers.

    Argonians get 1k max magicka, 6% healing, and 177 regen. Most healers are consistently overhealing. Therefore the 177 regen is better for healing. Argonians are the second best healers this isn't up for debate. They are also still a solid tank race.

    I'd debate it. The 258 damage adds to the group DPS meaning fights are slightly shorter, meaning less need for heals and buffs, meaning you don't have to regen as much.
    Meanwhile the +1000 magicka (in reality this is more than 1000 as it gets multiplied by CP and other %max magicka buffs) allows you to cast more spells and lowering the need for high regen.

    Also, the whole thing about regen only stands as long as they don't reverse the Spellcharge changes cause that was 192 regen.
    And Khajiit aren't far behind in the regen department either. They get +85 magicka regen but since it's real regen it get's multiplied by all the multipliers one can hoard up allowing you to comfortably get >70% multiplier, giving you >145 regen.

    And then we haven't even considered that since, as you yourself said, overhealing is a consistent 'problem' in ESO, Nords are also contenders for the healer role thanks to ulti generation passive.

    I've yet to seriously test it but I very much doubt argos are even 4th best healers.
    Arena:
    Faster Swimming
    Intelligence, Agility, Speed
    Arcane, Thieving, Pick-pocketing

    Daggerfall:
    Breath Underwater
    Agility, Speed, Strength
    Negatives to Endurance
    According to the flavor text: adept at the arts of thievery and spellcasting, but there are also some warriors

    Morrowind:
    Immunity to disease and poison
    Agility, Strength, Intelligence, Speed, Strength
    Negatives to Endurance
    Bonus to Athletics, Alchemy, Illusion, Mysticism, Unarmored, Medium armor, Spear
    Poison and Disease resistance

    Oblivion:
    Immunity to disease and poison
    Rogue/Warrior(I guess)/ Illusion Mage
    Agility, Intelligence, Speed
    Negatives to Endurance
    Bonus to Athletics, Alchemy, Illusion, Mysticism, Hand-to-Hand, Blade
    Poison and Disease resistance

    Skyrim:
    Breath underwater
    Lockpicking and Pickpocketing, Alteration, Light Armor, Restoration, Sneak
    Can recover large amounts of health once a day
    50% disease resist
    Higher unarmed damage
    Fixed that for you. Don't just cherrypick randomly, include everything.

    They definitely had a well established racial style before:
    Agile and intelligent rogues and support mages who thrive in wet environment but generally less robust than most races (aka -Endurance = had less HP). There were changes here and there mainly due to changing game mechanics but it was still generally coherent for the first 4 games.
    Skyrim mixed things up a lot fo every race by getting rid of the Attribute system but the bonuses still kinda line up with the earlier image.

    in ESO we have:
    • Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → Swimming and restoration affinity is fitting [as mysticism is not a thing in ESO]
    • Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. → Reflects their affinity for Alchemy, magical arts and burst recovery from Skyrim (which is slightly rogue-y)
    • Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect. → the Health increase in particular goes against the -Endurance of earlier games which was one of their most consistent trait.
    • Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 6%. → They did have affinity for Restoration but not this much

    So there's nothing to really showcase their sneaky, assassiny disposition and their mastery of guerilla warfare, all of which is lore actively being backed by ESO (Shadowscales and flavor text)


    Edited by phantasmalD on February 11, 2019 10:45PM
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    Also, we are not talking damage, but heals and Argonian has had a passive related to heals since the start (and sustain related to potions). Zos has clearly stated they intend to keep the flavor of each race.

    And Bosmer had stealth and Dunmer had fire damage boost and so on.
    Yes, ZoS indeed seems keen on keeping this one but I don't like it and that's why I'm petitioning for a change. It's boring, limited, not particularly powerful and not even very lore friendly, or at least there are better options lorewise.
    But again, You are not really providing support for your opinion. Zos expects real information.
    I already did so a couple of times in other threads, the fact that you didn't read them does not mean that I haven't backed up my claims. If ZoS is interested in my opinion they already got it.
    Cries wrote: »
    Also no way altmer is a better healer then argonian and no way redguard is a better tank.

    Just 258 spell damage itself gives you stronger heals than 6% healing done, healing skills also scale of max spell damage and magicka.
    Quick build on PTS to showcase this:
    xezhdhk8bj58.jpg
    8pdyl17svlkg.jpg
    Same build, only difference is that on the first picture I refunded Life Mender and triggered Major Courage.
    On the second picture I bought Life Mender and refunded Resourceful (so I have -1000 magicka compared to the first one). [NOTE: this means the first picture has +258 damage and +1000 magicka compared to the second one]

    In 4.3.0 Altmers also had better magicka return passive (575/6 = 95 vs 3600/45 = 80). That's no longer the case but things can still change.
    And Bretons had better recovery and higher DPS than Altmers [in damage parses] so if Breton >> Altmer and Altmer >> Argonian then obviously Breton >> Argonian.

    Haven't done any theorycrafting on Redguard tanks but they have crazy good stamina sustain from what I can see.
    ccmedaddy wrote: »
    No one cares how much DPS Argonians do because they're good at everything else. ZOS is giving you 3 race change tokens. Use them and leave the Argonian race alone.

    One of the main goals was to increase freedom when choosing race/role/class combination.
    ccmedaddy wrote: »

    Buffing Argonians' offensive stats will inevitably lead to their utility passives being nerfed. Just race change your toon and leave the rest of us Argonians alone.

    Exchanging healing done for spell damage would actually only make them better healers, as I demostrated above. [and I don't mind a small nerf to the potion passive]
    Ajax_22 wrote: »
    ebls_BR wrote: »
    As someone stated, they are not the best healers, they are not even the second. 258 spell damage and 1875/2000 magicka make heals stronger than 1000 magicka and 6% healing done. Just test yourself. So Altmers and Dunmers are better healers.

    Argonians get 1k max magicka, 6% healing, and 177 regen. Most healers are consistently overhealing. Therefore the 177 regen is better for healing. Argonians are the second best healers this isn't up for debate. They are also still a solid tank race.

    I'd debate it. The 258 damage adds to the group DPS meaning fights are slightly shorter, meaning less need for heals and buffs, meaning you don't have to regen as much.
    Meanwhile the +1000 magicka (in reality this is more than 1000 as it gets multiplied by CP and other %max magicka buffs) allows you to cast more spells and lowering the need for high regen.

    Also, the whole thing about regen only stands as long as they don't reverse the Spellcharge changes cause that was 192 regen.
    And Khajiit aren't far behind in the regen department either. They get +85 magicka regen but since it's real regen it get's multiplied by all the multipliers one can hoard up allowing you to comfortably get >70% multiplier, giving you >145 regen.

    And then we haven't even considered that since, as you yourself said, overhealing is a consistent 'problem' in ESO, Nords are also contenders for the healer role thanks to ulti generation passive.

    I've yet to seriously test it but I very much doubt argos are even 4th best healers.
    Arena:
    Faster Swimming
    Intelligence, Agility, Speed
    Arcane, Thieving, Pick-pocketing

    Daggerfall:
    Breath Underwater
    Agility, Speed, Strength
    Negatives to Endurance
    According to the flavor text: adept at the arts of thievery and spellcasting, but there are also some warriors

    Morrowind:
    Immunity to disease and poison
    Agility, Strength, Intelligence, Speed, Strength
    Negatives to Endurance
    Bonus to Athletics, Alchemy, Illusion, Mysticism, Unarmored, Medium armor, Spear
    Poison and Disease resistance

    Oblivion:
    Immunity to disease and poison
    Rogue/Warrior(I guess)/ Illusion Mage
    Agility, Intelligence, Speed
    Negatives to Endurance
    Bonus to Athletics, Alchemy, Illusion, Mysticism, Hand-to-Hand, Blade
    Poison and Disease resistance

    Skyrim:
    Breath underwater
    Lockpicking and Pickpocketing, Alteration, Light Armor, Restoration, Sneak
    Can recover large amounts of health once a day
    50% disease resist
    Higher unarmed damage
    Fixed that for you. Don't just cherrypick randomly, include everything.

    They definitely had a well established racial style before:
    Agile and intelligent rogues and support mages who thrive in wet environment but generally less robust than most races (aka -Endurance = had less HP). There were changes here and there mainly due to changing game mechanics but it was still generally coherent for the first 4 games.
    Skyrim mixed things up a lot fo every race by getting rid of the Attribute system but the bonuses still kinda line up with the earlier image.

    in ESO we have:
    • Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → Swimming and restoration affinity is fitting [as mysticism is not a thing in ESO]
    • Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. → Reflects their affinity for Alchemy, magical arts and burst recovery from Skyrim (which is slightly rogue-y)
    • Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect. → the Health increase in particular goes against the -Endurance of earlier games which was one of their most consistent trait.
    • Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 6%. → They did have affinity for Restoration but not this much

    So there's nothing to really showcase their sneaky, assassiny disposition and their mastery of guerilla warfare, all of which is lore actively being backed by ESO (Shadowscales and flavor text)


    1. I understand it is your opinion it is boring but that is just you. Clearly this thread is not taking off like a hot topic would. Also, you seem to be ignoring Zos is attempting to keep the flavor of the racial passives. Ignore that and your "boring" argument falls flat fast.
    2. You really have not provided support. Your statement of what 6% healing equates to (while actually speaking of damage) has not basis. You must actually provide a basis for that or it is empty and meaningless. What 6% actually provides will differ based on the build. That is a simple fact.
    Really, idk
  • BahometZ
    BahometZ
    ✭✭✭
    I too would love to see some hard figures, as I don't have access to the PTS. However it is disingenuous to say that you can't know unless testing is done. It's clear from the tooltip that straight spell damage has far more utility than healing done.

    On live servers, Dunmer and Altmer have damage bonuses to elemental magic, and Argonians have healing bonus, there is clear delineation in roles. The bonuses do not overlap.

    Now in PTS Dunmer and Altmer have flat damage bonuses while Argonians keep the healing bonus. The Dunmer and Altmer have a boost to their damage done, but also to their healing done, giving far more freedom and effectiveness in different activities. It is also in line with ZOS's stated purpose of opening up races to new roles.

    Argonians do not have the same freedom as other races. What they do have is that bloody albatross hanging around their neck, the resourceful potions passive, which gets thrown in their face every time they want to have a discussion about balance.

    ZOS should give us some data to work with. Make the Argonian resourceful passive work as a half or third burst, the rest over time return, so it is less OP in PvP.

    And to give them some damage utility, when they are healed, they get a 128 spl/wpn damage boost for 10 seconds, with a 5 second cool down. This would represent their vigor and quick to recover attributes. It would not make them OP DDs, but would open them up to that role more effectively than they currently are.

    ZOS should've introduced something like this in the latest PTS patch, but instead they've flipped Khajiit on their heads, because sure why not, let's throw something else at the dartboard and see if it sticks.
    Bahomet the Saxhleel Magplar - Pact Healer, Paragon, CP 825 (NA XB)
  • phantasmalD
    phantasmalD
    ✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    1. I understand it is your opinion it is boring but that is just you. Clearly this thread is not taking off like a hot topic would. Also, you seem to be ignoring Zos is attempting to keep the flavor of the racial passives. Ignore that and your "boring" argument falls flat fast.
    2. You really have not provided support. Your statement of what 6% healing equates to (while actually speaking of damage) has not basis. You must actually provide a basis for that or it is empty and meaningless. What 6% actually provides will differ based on the build. That is a simple fact.

    1. This thread was literally was made a couple of hours ago and isn't the first thread to discussed this.
    I'm not ignoring it, I'm fighting it with. Also, what about the other 3 arguments tho, that you oh so keenly ignored?
    2. Healing Springs tooltip literally shows 4x63 HP healed difference. Heals scale off spell damage and max magicka. What else is to say? Damage impacts your heals more than healing done.
    Yeah, it will differ on your build in the sense that if you have like over ~2.2k damage than 6% healing done going to slowly become a better bonus. As I implied in my first post that you quoted, so I already acknowledged that fact.

    I fully admit that 'boring' is a subjective and selfish argument, but that's my opinion.
    There are ways to keep the healing mage flavor without shoehorning argos into one role.
    Edited by phantasmalD on February 11, 2019 11:10PM
  • Kulvar
    Kulvar
    ✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    1. I understand it is your opinion it is boring but that is just you. Clearly this thread is not taking off like a hot topic would. Also, you seem to be ignoring Zos is attempting to keep the flavor of the racial passives. Ignore that and your "boring" argument falls flat fast.
    2. You really have not provided support. Your statement of what 6% healing equates to (while actually speaking of damage) has not basis. You must actually provide a basis for that or it is empty and meaningless. What 6% actually provides will differ based on the build. That is a simple fact.

    Maths time ! For +6% Healing Done to be better than +258 Spell Damage
    I'll use BSP for Base Spell Damage in the formulas.

    With a lot of buffs to Healing Done

    Bonus to Spell Damage
    Major Sorcery +20%

    Bonus to Healing Done
    CP Blessed +15%
    Major Mending +25%
    Minor Mending +8%
    Soul Siphoner +2% (Nightblade)
    Set Bonus +2%
    BSP * 1.2 * (1.52 + 0.06) > (BSP + 258) * 1.2 * 1.52
    1.896 * BSP > 1.824 * BSP + 470
    1.896 * BSP - 1.824 * BSP > 470
    0.072 * BSP > 470
    BSP > 470 / 0.072
    BSP > 6528

    +6% Healing Done is more interesting than +258 Spell Damage if you already have more than 6528 Spell Damage (before Major Sorcery).

    With few buffs to Healing Done
    Only buffs are Major Sorcery, CP Blessed, and Minor Mending
    BSP * 1.2 * (1.23 + 0.06) > (BSP + 258) * 1.2 * 1.23
    1.548 * BSP > 1.476 * BSP + 381
    1.548 * BSP - 1.476 * BSP > 381
    0.072 * BSP > 381
    BSP > 381/ 0.072
    BSP > 5289

    +6% Healing Done is more interesting than +258 Spell Damage if you already have more than 5289 Spell Damage (before Major Sorcery).

    With no buffs at all
    BSP * (1 + 0.06) > BSP + 258
    1.06 * BSP > BSP + 258
    1.06 * BSP - BSP > 258
    0.06 * BSP > 258
    BSP > 258/ 0.06
    BSP > 4300

    +6% Healing Done is more interesting than +258 Spell Damage if you already have more than 4300 Spell Damage (without Major Sorcery).
    Edited by Kulvar on February 11, 2019 11:43PM
    Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact
  • phantasmalD
    phantasmalD
    ✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    1. I understand it is your opinion it is boring but that is just you. Clearly this thread is not taking off like a hot topic would. Also, you seem to be ignoring Zos is attempting to keep the flavor of the racial passives. Ignore that and your "boring" argument falls flat fast.
    2. You really have not provided support. Your statement of what 6% healing equates to (while actually speaking of damage) has not basis. You must actually provide a basis for that or it is empty and meaningless. What 6% actually provides will differ based on the build. That is a simple fact.

    1. This thread was literally was made a couple of hours ago and isn't the first thread to discussed this.
    I'm not ignoring it, I'm fighting it with. Also, what about the other 3 arguments tho, that you oh so keenly ignored?
    2. Healing Springs tooltip literally shows 4x63 HP healed difference. Heals scale off spell damage and max magicka. What else is to say? Damage impacts your heals more than healing done.
    Yeah, it will differ on your build in the sense that if you have like over ~2.2k damage than 6% healing done going to slowly become a better bonus. As I implied in my first post that you quoted, so I already acknowledged that fact.

    I fully admit that 'boring' is a subjective and selfish argument, but that's my opinion.
    There are ways to keep the healing mage flavor without shoehorning argos into one role.

    I admit tho, the 2.2k damage is a very large generalization and an estimation but I'll try to prove it:

    So to my understanding the damage or heal of every skill is calculated like this: (Skill coefficient)*multiplier1*multiplier2*etc.
    That skill coefficent is a hard coded, skill specific number that scales of max damage and resource and I can't be bothered to calculate it for every skill.

    Let's go through the calculation of Healing Springs, one of the most widely used healing skill:
    (Skill coefficent copied from here: https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php)

    Summon restoring spirits with your staff, healing you and your allies in the target area for $1 Health and an additional $2 Health every 1 second for 3 seconds. You restore 273 Magicka for each friendly target hit by the initial heal, up to a maximum of 3 targets.

    $1/$2 = 0.0309941 Magicka + 0.324186 SD + 1.54021 (Magicka, R2 = 0.999997, ratio = 10.46) [*multipliers]

    So let's assume you have 40k magicka and 2200 spell damage and no bonuses (tbh most bonuses you'd have would be irrelevant as the reason SD's effectiveness starts falling off is the coefficent)

    1239,764 + 713,2092 +1,54021 = 1954,51341

    So without any other bonuses the tooltip should say 1955 heal.

    - If you have the 6% healing done bonus:

    1954,51341*1,06 = 2072

    - 258 damage and +1000 magicka

    1270,7581 + 793,607328 + 1,54021 = 2066

    Let's do this with lower spell damage numbers
    1900 SD + 40k magicka:
    1239,764 + 615,9534 + 1,54021 = 1857,25761
    - *1.06 = 1969
    - +248SD + 1k magicka 1270,7581 + 699,593388 + 1,54021 = 1972

    So somewhere between 2.2k and 1.9k damage AT 40k magicka (if you have more or less the numbers and therefore this sweetspot changes) the two bonuses flip side and healing done% starts getting better.

    Of course, I kind of oversimplified the calculations as healing done can be boosted by your targets healing received which screws with the numbers. And this is just one skill, there are so many more each with there own coefficent calculations. There are just too many variables to find the true spot where healing done% overtakes spell damage in power.

    But even at 2.2k the advantage it has is only +6HP healed on Healing Springs while SD still has the advantage also boost damage output as well (which results in shorter fights. How much shorter? Another complication)

    Of course this is all assuming that I even did my math correctly.
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    There's effectively no reason to run Argonian now.

    Imperial had 75% of Argonian's Resourceful Passive via Red Diamond before this change but now that they got the extra 3% cost reduction to everything on top, I'd say they have equal (if not greater) sustain right now. Imperials also have 2k worth of extra stats over Argonians so there's really no point in running Argonian as a Tank since Imperial has better sustain/damage while Nord has better bulk/utility. Disease Resistance is worthless in PvE and the 6% Healing done does effectively nothing useful for Tanks outside of Self heals being boosted, which isn't needed. Healing is really no better since Breton does it better in practically every area. More damage, better sustain, equivalent heal numbers, Breton just has everything going for it over Argonian its not even funny.

    As for PvP, Resourceful is NOT the end all be all. It's useful, yes but let's be real here, it's not the only thing that made Argonians strong in PvP; It was Resourceful + 5% Healing Received/Done + Poison/Disease resistance + 9% extra Health, all of which have been nerfed. The heal from the potion passive is halved in PvP so it's largely irrelevant (even more so if you're defiled), Dunmer and Altmer offer similar off-resource sustain as Dunmer has more off resources to use by default and Altmer has an off-resource regen, while having better healing numbers and more damage. The burst from Resourceful is overrated as well since it doesn't make up for what other races have gained naturally throughout the fight. An Orc/Altmer/Dunmer would have healed themselves for equivalent amounts of health for less resources than an Argonian as their heals are stronger, Breton/Bosmer/Redguard/Imperial/Khajiit would have spent less/recovered more resources than an Argonian would have during the fight until an Argonian pops their potion to get back that difference, WITHOUT using an entire GCD to do so. The only race that can argue at being "inferior" to Argonian in PvP is Nord and even that's a bit of a stretch.

    Someone give me a silver lining because all my skies are gray.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on February 12, 2019 6:16AM
    Argonian forever
  • twing1_
    twing1_
    ✭✭✭
    They should change their +6% healing done to +4% healing done AND received
  • Bloodystab
    Bloodystab
    ✭✭✭✭
    I guess we are where we was when ESO launched.

    giphy.gif
  • hakan
    hakan
    ✭✭✭
    I am slowly losing hope...

    It seems that after next patch I will have to limit my activities to only doing crafting quest, daily quest & housing.
    End game content, both PvE & PvP will be on hold for me.

    And yes, I refuse to race change. Was Argonian since day 1. Will do my best to adapt, but at this point I don't know if I will succeed. Chances for that are slim.

    On the other hand all those "fake" Argonians min-maxers will be gone. ;)

    And one more thing:
    If this goes live, saying that Argonian is OP will simply cause people to laugh at you... :joy:

    Wow you are delusional. if you cant do those content as argo, you wont be able to do it as a " insert bis race here" anyway.
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    hakan wrote: »
    I am slowly losing hope...

    It seems that after next patch I will have to limit my activities to only doing crafting quest, daily quest & housing.
    End game content, both PvE & PvP will be on hold for me.

    And yes, I refuse to race change. Was Argonian since day 1. Will do my best to adapt, but at this point I don't know if I will succeed. Chances for that are slim.

    On the other hand all those "fake" Argonians min-maxers will be gone. ;)

    And one more thing:
    If this goes live, saying that Argonian is OP will simply cause people to laugh at you... :joy:

    Wow you are delusional. if you cant do those content as argo, you wont be able to do it as a " insert bis race here" anyway.

    It's not that we can't do the content. It's more along the lines that, we're just sort of there, not doing anything special that any other race can't do better. What talent does an Argonian bring to the table that can't be handled by another race with equal or greater results? What niche does it offer that makes it worthwhile? Nothing and it's disheartening to a point that some of us will just sit there and ask ourselves, "Why bother at all?"
    Edited by Silver_Strider on February 12, 2019 6:14AM
    Argonian forever
  • hakan
    hakan
    ✭✭✭
    hakan wrote: »
    I am slowly losing hope...

    It seems that after next patch I will have to limit my activities to only doing crafting quest, daily quest & housing.
    End game content, both PvE & PvP will be on hold for me.

    And yes, I refuse to race change. Was Argonian since day 1. Will do my best to adapt, but at this point I don't know if I will succeed. Chances for that are slim.

    On the other hand all those "fake" Argonians min-maxers will be gone. ;)

    And one more thing:
    If this goes live, saying that Argonian is OP will simply cause people to laugh at you... :joy:

    Wow you are delusional. if you cant do those content as argo, you wont be able to do it as a " insert bis race here" anyway.

    It's not that we can't do the content. It's more along the lines that, we're just sort of there, not doing anything special that any other race can't do better. What talent does an Argonian bring to the table that can't be handled by another race with equal or greater results? What niche does it offer that makes it worthwhile? Nothing and it's disheartening to a point that some of us will just sit there and ask ourselves, "Why bother at all?"

    i wrote that as an answer to your quoted comment saying you wont be able to do it.

    for what argos bring to the table part. Well id like some useful passives too for all classes (for dps). i like argonians.

    But when you play your character just cuz you like it that way and considering dps difference is not even 3-4k(?) saying "i cant/wont be able to do x content" is just hyperboling
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    hakan wrote: »
    hakan wrote: »
    I am slowly losing hope...

    It seems that after next patch I will have to limit my activities to only doing crafting quest, daily quest & housing.
    End game content, both PvE & PvP will be on hold for me.

    And yes, I refuse to race change. Was Argonian since day 1. Will do my best to adapt, but at this point I don't know if I will succeed. Chances for that are slim.

    On the other hand all those "fake" Argonians min-maxers will be gone. ;)

    And one more thing:
    If this goes live, saying that Argonian is OP will simply cause people to laugh at you... :joy:

    Wow you are delusional. if you cant do those content as argo, you wont be able to do it as a " insert bis race here" anyway.

    It's not that we can't do the content. It's more along the lines that, we're just sort of there, not doing anything special that any other race can't do better. What talent does an Argonian bring to the table that can't be handled by another race with equal or greater results? What niche does it offer that makes it worthwhile? Nothing and it's disheartening to a point that some of us will just sit there and ask ourselves, "Why bother at all?"

    i wrote that as an answer to your quoted comment saying you wont be able to do it.

    for what argos bring to the table part. Well id like some useful passives too for all classes (for dps). i like argonians.

    But when you play your character just cuz you like it that way and considering dps difference is not even 3-4k(?) saying "i cant/wont be able to do x content" is just hyperboling

    To be fair, that was someone else's comment, not mine and they never stated they couldn't do the content, just that they were gonna stop running it and I honestly don't blame them cause I'm kind of in the same boat.

    I've always been an Argonian; dealt with being lackluster for years before Morrowind nerfed everyone else down enough for us to finally compete. Now, we're just going back to being lackluster again and it feels horrible to a point that I don't really seen much reason to engage in any activity (doesn't help I was already getting a little burnt out on ESO anyway). It just sucks.
    Argonian forever
Sign In or Register to comment.