theres many ways how to fix argonians. but why hey should try it? instead they can just die whole race because we are now:
Healing (magicka races)
worse then Altmer
Breton
Khajiit
Dunmer
better than None
DPS ( magicka races )
worse than Altmer
Breton
Khajiit
Dunmer
all because resourceful. DELETE that useless sh*t and give us something useful.
New resourceful
Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. increases your Magicka, Stamina and health recovery by 100 for 45s when you drink a potion
or
Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion
increase spell damage by 250 for 45s when you drink a potion
This could help to solve resourceful as useless overrated passive useful now only on tanks or hybrid builds to support Healers + dps
Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »I am slowly losing hope...
It seems that after next patch I will have to limit my activities to only doing crafting quest, daily quest & housing.
End game content, both PvE & PvP will be on hold for me.
And yes, I refuse to race change. Was Argonian since day 1. Will do my best to adapt, but at this point I don't know if I will succeed. Chances for that are slim.
On the other hand all those "fake" Argonians min-maxers will be gone.
And one more thing:
If this goes live, saying that Argonian is OP will simply cause people to laugh at you...
theres many ways how to fix argonians. but why hey should try it? instead they can just die whole race because we are now:
Healing (magicka races)
worse then Altmer
Breton
Khajiit
Dunmer
better than None
DPS ( magicka races )
worse than Altmer
Breton
Khajiit
Dunmer
all because resourceful. DELETE that useless sh*t and give us something useful.
New resourceful
Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. increases your Magicka, Stamina and health recovery by 100 for 45s when you drink a potion
or
Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion
increase spell damage by 250 for 45s when you drink a potion
This could help to solve resourceful as useless overrated passive useful now only on tanks or hybrid builds to support Healers + dps
258 damage. Unless you have like 2.2k+ base damage it gives you higher numbers than 6% healing done. Not like it really counts cause you can easily overheal with Redguard.6% is a pretty sweet boost to healing. I cannot think of a full time buff that offers such a sweet boost.
I guess somewhat? The getting shoehorned into healer role is kinda bleh.validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Did you just not like Argonians before, or do you think they are genuinely 'ruined' now?
ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »[*]Allow more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing.
- This goal was one of our largest targets for this pass, since many playstyles had only one option for what was viable. This was done by converting percent bonuses into flat ones so they provide similar bonuses to all playstyles. Please note that these flat values will now scale with other % modifiers, so there will be less of a delta between builds. We also expanded many of the interactions and proc conditions for the passives, so more builds could engage with them and allow for improved diversity.
Argonians are at the bottom. Nothing changed in this patch for them.
+1000 Max Magicka (MagDD, Healer)
+6% Healing Done (Healer)
Not enough for them to compete in the healer role as they're beneath Breton, Altmer and Khajiits.
Argonians are at the bottom. Nothing changed in this patch for them.
+1000 Max Magicka (MagDD, Healer)
+6% Healing Done (Healer)
Not enough for them to compete in the healer role as they're beneath Breton, Altmer and Khajiits.
Their only advantage is a rigid and unreliable restoration of ressources when drinking a potion.
Which is too effective in PvP, but require to have potion cooldown low on engagement, otherwise it's as if they did not have this passive.
Spreading the restoration over time would solve the PvP unbalance and give some space to improve the racials they have access to.
Those race/name change tokens will probably be used as soon as patch hit live in this state.
Rest in Hist, Argonians.
For healing Breton might be better but Altmer has no sustain, Dunmer is just as good, Khajiit has some sustain.theres many ways how to fix argonians. but why hey should try it? instead they can just die whole race because we are now:
Healing (magicka races)
worse then Altmer
Breton
Khajiit
Dunmer
better than None
DPS ( magicka races )
worse than Altmer
Breton
Khajiit
Dunmer
all because resourceful. DELETE that useless sh*t and give us something useful.
New resourceful
Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. increases your Magicka, Stamina and health recovery by 100 for 45s when you drink a potion
or
Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000 1500. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion
increase spell damage by 250 for 45s when you drink a potion
This could help to solve resourceful as useless overrated passive useful now only on tanks or hybrid builds to support Healers + dps
phantasmalD wrote: »258 damage. Unless you have like 2.2k+ base damage it gives you higher numbers than 6% healing done. Not like it really counts cause you can easily overheal with Redguard.6% is a pretty sweet boost to healing. I cannot think of a full time buff that offers such a sweet boost.
But what really counts is that 258 damage is vastly more flexible, also boosting damage.
.
Also, we are not talking damage, but heals and Argonian has had a passive related to heals since the start (and sustain related to potions). Zos has clearly stated they intend to keep the flavor of each race.
I already did so a couple of times in other threads, the fact that you didn't read them does not mean that I haven't backed up my claims. If ZoS is interested in my opinion they already got it.But again, You are not really providing support for your opinion. Zos expects real information.
phantasmalD wrote: »Also no way altmer is a better healer then argonian and no way redguard is a better tank.
Just 258 spell damage itself gives you stronger heals than 6% healing done, healing skills also scale of max spell damage and magicka.
Quick build on PTS to showcase this:Same build, only difference is that on the first picture I refunded Life Mender and triggered Major Courage.
On the second picture I bought Life Mender and refunded Resourceful (so I have -1000 magicka compared to the first one). [NOTE: this means the first picture has +258 damage and +1000 magicka compared to the second one]
In 4.3.0 Altmers also had better magicka return passive (575/6 = 95 vs 3600/45 = 80). That's no longer the case but things can still change.
And Bretons had better recovery and higher DPS than Altmers [in damage parses] so if Breton >> Altmer and Altmer >> Argonian then obviously Breton >> Argonian.
Haven't done any theorycrafting on Redguard tanks but they have crazy good stamina sustain from what I can see.No one cares how much DPS Argonians do because they're good at everything else. ZOS is giving you 3 race change tokens. Use them and leave the Argonian race alone.
One of the main goals was to increase freedom when choosing race/role/class combination.
Buffing Argonians' offensive stats will inevitably lead to their utility passives being nerfed. Just race change your toon and leave the rest of us Argonians alone.
Exchanging healing done for spell damage would actually only make them better healers, as I demostrated above. [and I don't mind a small nerf to the potion passive]
phantasmalD wrote: »As someone stated, they are not the best healers, they are not even the second. 258 spell damage and 1875/2000 magicka make heals stronger than 1000 magicka and 6% healing done. Just test yourself. So Altmers and Dunmers are better healers.
Argonians get 1k max magicka, 6% healing, and 177 regen. Most healers are consistently overhealing. Therefore the 177 regen is better for healing. Argonians are the second best healers this isn't up for debate. They are also still a solid tank race.
I'd debate it. The 258 damage adds to the group DPS meaning fights are slightly shorter, meaning less need for heals and buffs, meaning you don't have to regen as much.
Meanwhile the +1000 magicka (in reality this is more than 1000 as it gets multiplied by CP and other %max magicka buffs) allows you to cast more spells and lowering the need for high regen.
Also, the whole thing about regen only stands as long as they don't reverse the Spellcharge changes cause that was 192 regen.
And Khajiit aren't far behind in the regen department either. They get +85 magicka regen but since it's real regen it get's multiplied by all the multipliers one can hoard up allowing you to comfortably get >70% multiplier, giving you >145 regen.
And then we haven't even considered that since, as you yourself said, overhealing is a consistent 'problem' in ESO, Nords are also contenders for the healer role thanks to ulti generation passive.
I've yet to seriously test it but I very much doubt argos are even 4th best healers.
phantasmalD wrote: »Fixed that for you. Don't just cherrypick randomly, include everything.validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Arena:
Faster Swimming
Intelligence, Agility, Speed
Arcane, Thieving, Pick-pocketing
Daggerfall:
Breath Underwater
Agility, Speed, Strength
Negatives to Endurance
According to the flavor text: adept at the arts of thievery and spellcasting, but there are also some warriors
Morrowind:
Immunity to disease and poison
Agility, Strength, Intelligence, Speed, Strength
Negatives to Endurance
Bonus to Athletics, Alchemy, Illusion, Mysticism, Unarmored, Medium armor, Spear
Poison and Disease resistance
Oblivion:
Immunity to disease and poison
Rogue/Warrior(I guess)/ Illusion Mage
Agility, Intelligence, Speed
Negatives to Endurance
Bonus to Athletics, Alchemy, Illusion, Mysticism, Hand-to-Hand, Blade
Poison and Disease resistance
Skyrim:
Breath underwater
Lockpicking and Pickpocketing, Alteration, Light Armor, Restoration, Sneak
Can recover large amounts of health once a day
50% disease resist
Higher unarmed damage
They definitely had a well established racial style before:
Agile and intelligent rogues and support mages who thrive in wet environment but generally less robust than most races (aka -Endurance = had less HP). There were changes here and there mainly due to changing game mechanics but it was still generally coherent for the first 4 games.
Skyrim mixed things up a lot fo every race by getting rid of the Attribute system but the bonuses still kinda line up with the earlier image.
in ESO we have:
- Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → Swimming and restoration affinity is fitting [as mysticism is not a thing in ESO]
- Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. → Reflects their affinity for Alchemy, magical arts and burst recovery from Skyrim (which is slightly rogue-y)
- Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect. → the Health increase in particular goes against the -Endurance of earlier games which was one of their most consistent trait.
- Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 6%. → They did have affinity for Restoration but not this much
So there's nothing to really showcase their sneaky, assassiny disposition and their mastery of guerilla warfare, all of which is lore actively being backed by ESO (Shadowscales and flavor text)
phantasmalD wrote: »Also, we are not talking damage, but heals and Argonian has had a passive related to heals since the start (and sustain related to potions). Zos has clearly stated they intend to keep the flavor of each race.
And Bosmer had stealth and Dunmer had fire damage boost and so on.
Yes, ZoS indeed seems keen on keeping this one but I don't like it and that's why I'm petitioning for a change. It's boring, limited, not particularly powerful and not even very lore friendly, or at least there are better options lorewise.I already did so a couple of times in other threads, the fact that you didn't read them does not mean that I haven't backed up my claims. If ZoS is interested in my opinion they already got it.But again, You are not really providing support for your opinion. Zos expects real information.phantasmalD wrote: »Also no way altmer is a better healer then argonian and no way redguard is a better tank.
Just 258 spell damage itself gives you stronger heals than 6% healing done, healing skills also scale of max spell damage and magicka.
Quick build on PTS to showcase this:Same build, only difference is that on the first picture I refunded Life Mender and triggered Major Courage.
On the second picture I bought Life Mender and refunded Resourceful (so I have -1000 magicka compared to the first one). [NOTE: this means the first picture has +258 damage and +1000 magicka compared to the second one]
In 4.3.0 Altmers also had better magicka return passive (575/6 = 95 vs 3600/45 = 80). That's no longer the case but things can still change.
And Bretons had better recovery and higher DPS than Altmers [in damage parses] so if Breton >> Altmer and Altmer >> Argonian then obviously Breton >> Argonian.
Haven't done any theorycrafting on Redguard tanks but they have crazy good stamina sustain from what I can see.No one cares how much DPS Argonians do because they're good at everything else. ZOS is giving you 3 race change tokens. Use them and leave the Argonian race alone.
One of the main goals was to increase freedom when choosing race/role/class combination.
Buffing Argonians' offensive stats will inevitably lead to their utility passives being nerfed. Just race change your toon and leave the rest of us Argonians alone.
Exchanging healing done for spell damage would actually only make them better healers, as I demostrated above. [and I don't mind a small nerf to the potion passive]phantasmalD wrote: »As someone stated, they are not the best healers, they are not even the second. 258 spell damage and 1875/2000 magicka make heals stronger than 1000 magicka and 6% healing done. Just test yourself. So Altmers and Dunmers are better healers.
Argonians get 1k max magicka, 6% healing, and 177 regen. Most healers are consistently overhealing. Therefore the 177 regen is better for healing. Argonians are the second best healers this isn't up for debate. They are also still a solid tank race.
I'd debate it. The 258 damage adds to the group DPS meaning fights are slightly shorter, meaning less need for heals and buffs, meaning you don't have to regen as much.
Meanwhile the +1000 magicka (in reality this is more than 1000 as it gets multiplied by CP and other %max magicka buffs) allows you to cast more spells and lowering the need for high regen.
Also, the whole thing about regen only stands as long as they don't reverse the Spellcharge changes cause that was 192 regen.
And Khajiit aren't far behind in the regen department either. They get +85 magicka regen but since it's real regen it get's multiplied by all the multipliers one can hoard up allowing you to comfortably get >70% multiplier, giving you >145 regen.
And then we haven't even considered that since, as you yourself said, overhealing is a consistent 'problem' in ESO, Nords are also contenders for the healer role thanks to ulti generation passive.
I've yet to seriously test it but I very much doubt argos are even 4th best healers.phantasmalD wrote: »Fixed that for you. Don't just cherrypick randomly, include everything.validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Arena:
Faster Swimming
Intelligence, Agility, Speed
Arcane, Thieving, Pick-pocketing
Daggerfall:
Breath Underwater
Agility, Speed, Strength
Negatives to Endurance
According to the flavor text: adept at the arts of thievery and spellcasting, but there are also some warriors
Morrowind:
Immunity to disease and poison
Agility, Strength, Intelligence, Speed, Strength
Negatives to Endurance
Bonus to Athletics, Alchemy, Illusion, Mysticism, Unarmored, Medium armor, Spear
Poison and Disease resistance
Oblivion:
Immunity to disease and poison
Rogue/Warrior(I guess)/ Illusion Mage
Agility, Intelligence, Speed
Negatives to Endurance
Bonus to Athletics, Alchemy, Illusion, Mysticism, Hand-to-Hand, Blade
Poison and Disease resistance
Skyrim:
Breath underwater
Lockpicking and Pickpocketing, Alteration, Light Armor, Restoration, Sneak
Can recover large amounts of health once a day
50% disease resist
Higher unarmed damage
They definitely had a well established racial style before:
Agile and intelligent rogues and support mages who thrive in wet environment but generally less robust than most races (aka -Endurance = had less HP). There were changes here and there mainly due to changing game mechanics but it was still generally coherent for the first 4 games.
Skyrim mixed things up a lot fo every race by getting rid of the Attribute system but the bonuses still kinda line up with the earlier image.
in ESO we have:
- Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → Swimming and restoration affinity is fitting [as mysticism is not a thing in ESO]
- Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion. → Reflects their affinity for Alchemy, magical arts and burst recovery from Skyrim (which is slightly rogue-y)
- Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect. → the Health increase in particular goes against the -Endurance of earlier games which was one of their most consistent trait.
- Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 6%. → They did have affinity for Restoration but not this much
So there's nothing to really showcase their sneaky, assassiny disposition and their mastery of guerilla warfare, all of which is lore actively being backed by ESO (Shadowscales and flavor text)
1. I understand it is your opinion it is boring but that is just you. Clearly this thread is not taking off like a hot topic would. Also, you seem to be ignoring Zos is attempting to keep the flavor of the racial passives. Ignore that and your "boring" argument falls flat fast.
2. You really have not provided support. Your statement of what 6% healing equates to (while actually speaking of damage) has not basis. You must actually provide a basis for that or it is empty and meaningless. What 6% actually provides will differ based on the build. That is a simple fact.
1. I understand it is your opinion it is boring but that is just you. Clearly this thread is not taking off like a hot topic would. Also, you seem to be ignoring Zos is attempting to keep the flavor of the racial passives. Ignore that and your "boring" argument falls flat fast.
2. You really have not provided support. Your statement of what 6% healing equates to (while actually speaking of damage) has not basis. You must actually provide a basis for that or it is empty and meaningless. What 6% actually provides will differ based on the build. That is a simple fact.
phantasmalD wrote: »1. I understand it is your opinion it is boring but that is just you. Clearly this thread is not taking off like a hot topic would. Also, you seem to be ignoring Zos is attempting to keep the flavor of the racial passives. Ignore that and your "boring" argument falls flat fast.
2. You really have not provided support. Your statement of what 6% healing equates to (while actually speaking of damage) has not basis. You must actually provide a basis for that or it is empty and meaningless. What 6% actually provides will differ based on the build. That is a simple fact.
1. This thread was literally was made a couple of hours ago and isn't the first thread to discussed this.
I'm not ignoring it, I'm fighting it with. Also, what about the other 3 arguments tho, that you oh so keenly ignored?
2. Healing Springs tooltip literally shows 4x63 HP healed difference. Heals scale off spell damage and max magicka. What else is to say? Damage impacts your heals more than healing done.
Yeah, it will differ on your build in the sense that if you have like over ~2.2k damage than 6% healing done going to slowly become a better bonus. As I implied in my first post that you quoted, so I already acknowledged that fact.
I fully admit that 'boring' is a subjective and selfish argument, but that's my opinion.
There are ways to keep the healing mage flavor without shoehorning argos into one role.
Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »I am slowly losing hope...
It seems that after next patch I will have to limit my activities to only doing crafting quest, daily quest & housing.
End game content, both PvE & PvP will be on hold for me.
And yes, I refuse to race change. Was Argonian since day 1. Will do my best to adapt, but at this point I don't know if I will succeed. Chances for that are slim.
On the other hand all those "fake" Argonians min-maxers will be gone.
And one more thing:
If this goes live, saying that Argonian is OP will simply cause people to laugh at you...
Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »I am slowly losing hope...
It seems that after next patch I will have to limit my activities to only doing crafting quest, daily quest & housing.
End game content, both PvE & PvP will be on hold for me.
And yes, I refuse to race change. Was Argonian since day 1. Will do my best to adapt, but at this point I don't know if I will succeed. Chances for that are slim.
On the other hand all those "fake" Argonians min-maxers will be gone.
And one more thing:
If this goes live, saying that Argonian is OP will simply cause people to laugh at you...
Wow you are delusional. if you cant do those content as argo, you wont be able to do it as a " insert bis race here" anyway.
Silver_Strider wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »I am slowly losing hope...
It seems that after next patch I will have to limit my activities to only doing crafting quest, daily quest & housing.
End game content, both PvE & PvP will be on hold for me.
And yes, I refuse to race change. Was Argonian since day 1. Will do my best to adapt, but at this point I don't know if I will succeed. Chances for that are slim.
On the other hand all those "fake" Argonians min-maxers will be gone.
And one more thing:
If this goes live, saying that Argonian is OP will simply cause people to laugh at you...
Wow you are delusional. if you cant do those content as argo, you wont be able to do it as a " insert bis race here" anyway.
It's not that we can't do the content. It's more along the lines that, we're just sort of there, not doing anything special that any other race can't do better. What talent does an Argonian bring to the table that can't be handled by another race with equal or greater results? What niche does it offer that makes it worthwhile? Nothing and it's disheartening to a point that some of us will just sit there and ask ourselves, "Why bother at all?"
Silver_Strider wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »I am slowly losing hope...
It seems that after next patch I will have to limit my activities to only doing crafting quest, daily quest & housing.
End game content, both PvE & PvP will be on hold for me.
And yes, I refuse to race change. Was Argonian since day 1. Will do my best to adapt, but at this point I don't know if I will succeed. Chances for that are slim.
On the other hand all those "fake" Argonians min-maxers will be gone.
And one more thing:
If this goes live, saying that Argonian is OP will simply cause people to laugh at you...
Wow you are delusional. if you cant do those content as argo, you wont be able to do it as a " insert bis race here" anyway.
It's not that we can't do the content. It's more along the lines that, we're just sort of there, not doing anything special that any other race can't do better. What talent does an Argonian bring to the table that can't be handled by another race with equal or greater results? What niche does it offer that makes it worthwhile? Nothing and it's disheartening to a point that some of us will just sit there and ask ourselves, "Why bother at all?"
i wrote that as an answer to your quoted comment saying you wont be able to do it.
for what argos bring to the table part. Well id like some useful passives too for all classes (for dps). i like argonians.
But when you play your character just cuz you like it that way and considering dps difference is not even 3-4k(?) saying "i cant/wont be able to do x content" is just hyperboling