Here's a sample from a normal raid in combat vs another raid (about 15 of us vs an opposing 15 + about that same number of random others on both sides):
Column #1:Seconds in Combat / Column #2: Negative Effects on Me
1 0
2 0
3 0
4 4
5 7
6 9
7 14
8 9
9 7
10 11
11 14
12 9
13 9
14 4
15 14
16 18
17 17
18 17
19 8
20 5
21 9
22 11
23 10
24 15
25 14
26 8
27 5
28 7
29 7
30 6
31 1
32 0
33 0
34 6
35 11
36 19
37 18
38 19
39 17
40 12
41 7
42 16
43 0 DEAD
44 0 DEAD
45 0 DEAD
The average number of debuffs in combat ranges up to 19. There are periods of combat where for 4-5 seconds it gets close to 20, and for a solid fifteen seconds other than a lingering ritual, it didn't drop much below 10. This is normal for a fight, and I'm playing a MagPlar who can hit lingering ritual often enough!
Removing 3 negative effects every 8 seconds is completely useless. I understand that the whinging of the DoT/Bleed builds made this set change from what was REASONABLE for raids to use, but it's now completely wasted and will likely be used the same amount as before this patch (meaning not at all).
@ZOS_GinaBruno It is very apparent that the people making decisions are listening to the vocal minority of bleed/dot build duellists rather than actually looking at how negative effects occur in combat. There's a reason that raids need a purge-monkey (an honourable position of high sustain whose only job is to cast purge). This set, as it was before allowed that purge monkey to actually do something other than build for spamming one button.
2 effects every 2 seconds would have changed that barrage of debuffs?
Here's a sample from a normal raid in combat vs another raid (about 15 of us vs an opposing 15 + about that same number of random others on both sides):
Column #1:Seconds in Combat / Column #2: Negative Effects on Me
1 0
2 0
3 0
4 4
5 7
6 9
7 14
8 9
9 7
10 11
11 14
12 9
13 9
14 4
15 14
16 18
17 17
18 17
19 8
20 5
21 9
22 11
23 10
24 15
25 14
26 8
27 5
28 7
29 7
30 6
31 1
32 0
33 0
34 6
35 11
36 19
37 18
38 19
39 17
40 12
41 7
42 16
43 0 DEAD
44 0 DEAD
45 0 DEAD
The average number of debuffs in combat ranges up to 19. There are periods of combat where for 4-5 seconds it gets close to 20, and for a solid fifteen seconds other than a lingering ritual, it didn't drop much below 10. This is normal for a fight, and I'm playing a MagPlar who can hit lingering ritual often enough!
Removing 3 negative effects every 8 seconds is completely useless. I understand that the whinging of the DoT/Bleed builds made this set change from what was REASONABLE for raids to use, but it's now completely wasted and will likely be used the same amount as before this patch (meaning not at all).
@ZOS_GinaBruno It is very apparent that the people making decisions are listening to the vocal minority of bleed/dot build duellists rather than actually looking at how negative effects occur in combat. There's a reason that raids need a purge-monkey (an honourable position of high sustain whose only job is to cast purge). This set, as it was before allowed that purge monkey to actually do something other than build for spamming one button.
2 effects every 2 seconds would have changed that barrage of debuffs?
That's the point of his comment. Even 2 effects purged wouldn't have done anything, but at least it was better thanan 8 seconds cooldown where your enemy can literally hit you with 2 attacks to stack 4 bleeds + siphoner + poison lol.
And i still haven't seen a video showing a full duel in normal combat. I know some of those creators can light attack weave like lighting; made no sense seeing someone spam one ability every 2 seconds like they were a casual lol.
CatchMeTrolling wrote: »has It’s uses but I doubt people pick it up. Requires a direct heal and increased the time.
8 seconds isn't that long. It will still be enough to allow me to shrug off the Defile from each Incap, for instance. And the direct heal requirement is fine if you're running it for yourself, not a group. Direct heals are all over the place. Even Entropy has a direct heal.
Here's a sample from a normal raid in combat vs another raid (about 15 of us vs an opposing 15 + about that same number of random others on both sides):
Column #1:Seconds in Combat / Column #2: Negative Effects on Me
1 0
2 0
3 0
4 4
5 7
6 9
7 14
8 9
9 7
10 11
11 14
12 9
13 9
14 4
15 14
16 18
17 17
18 17
19 8
20 5
21 9
22 11
23 10
24 15
25 14
26 8
27 5
28 7
29 7
30 6
31 1
32 0
33 0
34 6
35 11
36 19
37 18
38 19
39 17
40 12
41 7
42 16
43 0 DEAD
44 0 DEAD
45 0 DEAD
The average number of debuffs in combat ranges up to 19. There are periods of combat where for 4-5 seconds it gets close to 20, and for a solid fifteen seconds other than a lingering ritual, it didn't drop much below 10. This is normal for a fight, and I'm playing a MagPlar who can hit lingering ritual often enough!
Removing 3 negative effects every 8 seconds is completely useless. I understand that the whinging of the DoT/Bleed builds made this set change from what was REASONABLE for raids to use, but it's now completely wasted and will likely be used the same amount as before this patch (meaning not at all).
@ZOS_GinaBruno It is very apparent that the people making decisions are listening to the vocal minority of bleed/dot build duellists rather than actually looking at how negative effects occur in combat. There's a reason that raids need a purge-monkey (an honourable position of high sustain whose only job is to cast purge). This set, as it was before allowed that purge monkey to actually do something other than build for spamming one button.
2 effects every 2 seconds would have changed that barrage of debuffs?
That's the point of his comment. Even 2 effects purged wouldn't have done anything, but at least it was better thanan 8 seconds cooldown where your enemy can literally hit you with 2 attacks to stack 4 bleeds + siphoner + poison lol.
And i still haven't seen a video showing a full duel in normal combat. I know some of those creators can light attack weave like lighting; made no sense seeing someone spam one ability every 2 seconds like they were a casual lol.
2 effects every 2 seconds would have changed that barrage of debuffs?
Blackleopardex wrote: »Here's a sample from a normal raid in combat vs another raid (about 15 of us vs an opposing 15 + about that same number of random others on both sides):
Column #1:Seconds in Combat / Column #2: Negative Effects on Me
1 0
2 0
3 0
4 4
5 7
6 9
7 14
8 9
9 7
10 11
11 14
12 9
13 9
14 4
15 14
16 18
17 17
18 17
19 8
20 5
21 9
22 11
23 10
24 15
25 14
26 8
27 5
28 7
29 7
30 6
31 1
32 0
33 0
34 6
35 11
36 19
37 18
38 19
39 17
40 12
41 7
42 16
43 0 DEAD
44 0 DEAD
45 0 DEAD
The average number of debuffs in combat ranges up to 19. There are periods of combat where for 4-5 seconds it gets close to 20, and for a solid fifteen seconds other than a lingering ritual, it didn't drop much below 10. This is normal for a fight, and I'm playing a MagPlar who can hit lingering ritual often enough!
Removing 3 negative effects every 8 seconds is completely useless. I understand that the whinging of the DoT/Bleed builds made this set change from what was REASONABLE for raids to use, but it's now completely wasted and will likely be used the same amount as before this patch (meaning not at all).
ZOS_GinaBruno It is very apparent that the people making decisions are listening to the vocal minority of bleed/dot build duellists rather than actually looking at how negative effects occur in combat. There's a reason that raids need a purge-monkey (an honourable position of high sustain whose only job is to cast purge). This set, as it was before allowed that purge monkey to actually do something other than build for spamming one button.
2 effects every 2 seconds would have changed that barrage of debuffs?
That's the point of his comment. Even 2 effects purged wouldn't have done anything, but at least it was better thanan 8 seconds cooldown where your enemy can literally hit you with 2 attacks to stack 4 bleeds + siphoner + poison lol.
And i still haven't seen a video showing a full duel in normal combat. I know some of those creators can light attack weave like lighting; made no sense seeing someone spam one ability every 2 seconds like they were a casual lol.
I would say his point is that it would be a 5 item set that is useful for taking up 5 slots and not overpowered in general pvp. The only place it would be sometimes "overpowered" is in duels against certain build/classes.. But then we need to have a look at many sets then that should be nerfed because they over-preform in duels against certain classes and builds:)
@Crown
I didn’t care about the different versions - I’m not a dueler. I just don’t think the general issues with the plethora of debuffs should be solved with a set that then becomes mandatory.
WreckfulAbandon wrote: »The silent majority is content with this change.
D0RID0RI240 wrote: »I mean, to be honest, I really dont care about the large Vivec style raid angle, I don't understand whar difference it makes whats debuffing or cleansing whom when half of ya'll are in the process of lagging out in there any way, but I digress. From a small group/duo or even solo perspective, a reasonable rework of this set would do wonders for magblades and sorcs, for example, as neither class has a cleanse in their kit. I am not slotting efficient purge in Sotha. To be honest, you can just delete this set and the ideals behind it if you finally do somthing about the fact that we are CONSTANTLY snared, slowed, rooted, and defiled while also getting bled out with unmitigatable damage. Having predictable fluid movement, speed, and elusiveness in Cyrodiil used to be a thing. Now I am looking at more snared slowed gameplay until the next chapter releases while being stuck in combat..and things like..shade are still broken. The race updates and changes are a great development but it still is overshadowed by these persistent issues and the resulting meta in Cyro and BGs that it has created.
Here's a sample from a normal raid in combat vs another raid (about 15 of us vs an opposing 15 + about that same number of random others on both sides):
Column #1:Seconds in Combat / Column #2: Negative Effects on Me
1 0
2 0
3 0
4 4
5 7
6 9
7 14
8 9
9 7
10 11
11 14
12 9
13 9
14 4
15 14
16 18
17 17
18 17
19 8
20 5
21 9
22 11
23 10
24 15
25 14
26 8
27 5
28 7
29 7
30 6
31 1
32 0
33 0
34 6
35 11
36 19
37 18
38 19
39 17
40 12
41 7
42 16
43 0 DEAD
44 0 DEAD
45 0 DEAD
The average number of debuffs in combat ranges up to 19. There are periods of combat where for 4-5 seconds it gets close to 20, and for a solid fifteen seconds other than a lingering ritual, it didn't drop much below 10. This is normal for a fight, and I'm playing a MagPlar who can hit lingering ritual often enough!
Removing 3 negative effects every 8 seconds is completely useless. I understand that the whinging of the DoT/Bleed builds made this set change from what was REASONABLE for raids to use, but it's now completely wasted and will likely be used the same amount as before this patch (meaning not at all).
@ZOS_GinaBruno It is very apparent that the people making decisions are listening to the vocal minority of bleed/dot build duellists rather than actually looking at how negative effects occur in combat. There's a reason that raids need a purge-monkey (an honourable position of high sustain whose only job is to cast purge). This set, as it was before allowed that purge monkey to actually do something other than build for spamming one button.
Here's a sample from a normal raid in combat vs another raid (about 15 of us vs an opposing 15 + about that same number of random others on both sides):
Column #1:Seconds in Combat / Column #2: Negative Effects on Me
1 0
2 0
3 0
4 4
5 7
6 9
7 14
8 9
9 7
10 11
11 14
12 9
13 9
14 4
15 14
16 18
17 17
18 17
19 8
20 5
21 9
22 11
23 10
24 15
25 14
26 8
27 5
28 7
29 7
30 6
31 1
32 0
33 0
34 6
35 11
36 19
37 18
38 19
39 17
40 12
41 7
42 16
43 0 DEAD
44 0 DEAD
45 0 DEAD
The average number of debuffs in combat ranges up to 19. There are periods of combat where for 4-5 seconds it gets close to 20, and for a solid fifteen seconds other than a lingering ritual, it didn't drop much below 10. This is normal for a fight, and I'm playing a MagPlar who can hit lingering ritual often enough!
Removing 3 negative effects every 8 seconds is completely useless. I understand that the whinging of the DoT/Bleed builds made this set change from what was REASONABLE for raids to use, but it's now completely wasted and will likely be used the same amount as before this patch (meaning not at all).
@ZOS_GinaBruno It is very apparent that the people making decisions are listening to the vocal minority of bleed/dot build duellists rather than actually looking at how negative effects occur in combat. There's a reason that raids need a purge-monkey (an honourable position of high sustain whose only job is to cast purge). This set, as it was before allowed that purge monkey to actually do something other than build for spamming one button.
Thank you for pointing to the fact that this set in its first iteration was decent but not overperforming in a group vs. group environment. Sure it needed modifications to be not broken when stacked or in duels (player based CDs and/or not allowing multiples stacking perhaps), but one of these is completely underwhelming even in a 6v6 (small numbers for Cyrodiil).
What people don't realize is that this is a recording of ONE person's debuffs in a fight. Imagine thinking this is a good healer set (with even a 2 second cooldown), when in this fight you have to multiple those debuffs per second by 15 (in this case). That's and average of 285 debuffs on a 15-man each second - that means the original version of Curse Eater would negate 1/285 (1%) of negative effects per second if one person ran it, and if all 15 players ran it (thus all losing 5 piece bonuses) you'd be removing 5% of debuffs (ignoring the idea that they're easy to reapply).
Here's a sample from a normal raid in combat vs another raid (about 15 of us vs an opposing 15 + about that same number of random others on both sides):
Column #1:Seconds in Combat / Column #2: Negative Effects on Me
1 0
2 0
3 0
4 4
5 7
6 9
7 14
8 9
9 7
10 11
11 14
12 9
13 9
14 4
15 14
16 18
17 17
18 17
19 8
20 5
21 9
22 11
23 10
24 15
25 14
26 8
27 5
28 7
29 7
30 6
31 1
32 0
33 0
34 6
35 11
36 19
37 18
38 19
39 17
40 12
41 7
42 16
43 0 DEAD
44 0 DEAD
45 0 DEAD
The average number of debuffs in combat ranges up to 19. There are periods of combat where for 4-5 seconds it gets close to 20, and for a solid fifteen seconds other than a lingering ritual, it didn't drop much below 10. This is normal for a fight, and I'm playing a MagPlar who can hit lingering ritual often enough!
Removing 3 negative effects every 8 seconds is completely useless. I understand that the whinging of the DoT/Bleed builds made this set change from what was REASONABLE for raids to use, but it's now completely wasted and will likely be used the same amount as before this patch (meaning not at all).
@ZOS_GinaBruno It is very apparent that the people making decisions are listening to the vocal minority of bleed/dot build duellists rather than actually looking at how negative effects occur in combat. There's a reason that raids need a purge-monkey (an honourable position of high sustain whose only job is to cast purge). This set, as it was before allowed that purge monkey to actually do something other than build for spamming one button.
Thank you for pointing to the fact that this set in its first iteration was decent but not overperforming in a group vs. group environment. Sure it needed modifications to be not broken when stacked or in duels (player based CDs and/or not allowing multiples stacking perhaps), but one of these is completely underwhelming even in a 6v6 (small numbers for Cyrodiil).
What people don't realize is that this is a recording of ONE person's debuffs in a fight. Imagine thinking this is a good healer set (with even a 2 second cooldown), when in this fight you have to multiple those debuffs per second by 15 (in this case). That's and average of 285 debuffs on a 15-man each second - that means the original version of Curse Eater would negate 1/285 (1%) of negative effects per second if one person ran it, and if all 15 players ran it (thus all losing 5 piece bonuses) you'd be removing 5% of debuffs (ignoring the idea that they're easy to reapply).
The issue with the original iteration was not the amount of debuffs it removed but just the sheer number of effects that are considered debuffs. Curse is considered a debuff, all DoTs are considered debuffs (even the ones that only do damage), all CCs were also considered a debuff for this set. This was the main issue with this set. Say if it only worked on Major/Minor effects (and snares were somehow rolled into Major/Minor system) it would've been fine in it's original form.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »Really makes you think to see how many people want to have a clutch set and justify that need by the existance of another clutch mechanic(aka muh bleeds), while ignoring all the other setups this set would render useless.
Every time a set thats clearly broken appears , the same people cry so hard to keep it in the game and when they get what they want, PvP gets unplayable for a few months.
Though I'm happy that Zenimax finally took their lesson and started to do things in a way that makes sense. Better have a mediocre set instead of one that overperforms heavily.
D0RID0RI240 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Really makes you think to see how many people want to have a clutch set and justify that need by the existance of another clutch mechanic(aka muh bleeds), while ignoring all the other setups this set would render useless.
Every time a set thats clearly broken appears , the same people cry so hard to keep it in the game and when they get what they want, PvP gets unplayable for a few months.
Though I'm happy that Zenimax finally took their lesson and started to do things in a way that makes sense. Better have a mediocre set instead of one that overperforms heavily.
Or they could have had a more reasonable middle ground between "Broken AF" and "Decon Fodder" but I see this is a difficult concept still for some people.
"Clutch"
brandonv516 wrote: »I would hope ZoS will still consider somewhere between 3 and 6 seconds as the final sweet spot when it goes live.
Otherwise you have failed at trying to change sets to become more frequently used.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Purging 3 debuffs every 8 seconds on a direct heal looks good to me. Ballista firebolt applies a debuff that can be removed with a direct heal that also tops you off. Dots can be removed with a direct heal. You get a heal and a purge one GCD every 8 seconds. 8 seconds is not a very long time. If you are playing with a light armor set you are probably mobile enough not to get hit continuously by debuffs. If you are getting hit continuously by debuffs in light armor then what difference does it make whether this set exists as is or never was an idea to begin with? If you think it is that bad don't use it. Shadow Cloak, Ball of Lightning, Reflective Scales, stuns, any skill that decreases the number of hits you take in a given time increases the value of this set. There are also other skills that remove specific debuffs that aren't direct heals e.g. Reflective Plate.
I suppose one way to look at it is whether 400 spell power in whatever school of magic or removing 3 debuffs on a direct heal is better. If you remove 3 dots then you take 3 dots less damage over that 8 second interval. That might add up to 12k damage not applied. Which can be looked at as a passive HoT of 24k/2 over 8 seconds which is a pretty big number. Plus you probably have HoTs anyways. Because it doesn't work so well in a 1vx situation where you have 20 debuffs doesn't make it bad. It certainly looks good for burst recovery.
the debuffs you removed, can be reapplied to yourself in the next second... You are not getting "debuff immunity" for 8 seconds...
Here's a sample from a normal raid in combat vs another raid (about 15 of us vs an opposing 15 + about that same number of random others on both sides):
Column #1:Seconds in Combat / Column #2: Negative Effects on Me
1 0
2 0
3 0
4 4
5 7
6 9
7 14
8 9
9 7
10 11
11 14
12 9
13 9
14 4
15 14
16 18
17 17
18 17
19 8
20 5
21 9
22 11
23 10
24 15
25 14
26 8
27 5
28 7
29 7
30 6
31 1
32 0
33 0
34 6
35 11
36 19
37 18
38 19
39 17
40 12
41 7
42 16
43 0 DEAD
44 0 DEAD
45 0 DEAD
The average number of debuffs in combat ranges up to 19. There are periods of combat where for 4-5 seconds it gets close to 20, and for a solid fifteen seconds other than a lingering ritual, it didn't drop much below 10. This is normal for a fight, and I'm playing a MagPlar who can hit lingering ritual often enough!
Removing 3 negative effects every 8 seconds is completely useless. I understand that the whinging of the DoT/Bleed builds made this set change from what was REASONABLE for raids to use, but it's now completely wasted and will likely be used the same amount as before this patch (meaning not at all).
@ZOS_GinaBruno It is very apparent that the people making decisions are listening to the vocal minority of bleed/dot build duellists rather than actually looking at how negative effects occur in combat. There's a reason that raids need a purge-monkey (an honourable position of high sustain whose only job is to cast purge). This set, as it was before allowed that purge monkey to actually do something other than build for spamming one button.
It also goes directly against their reasoning for the change though, which was that you could continuously purge delayed burst effects, never getting them to apply.