Khajit becomes the only option for effective stealth gameplay. Broken Bosmer.

Uryel · January 2019

Muskrap wrote: »

Except the game can not and should never be balanced by non PvP/high level PvE

And why is that, pray tell ? Just because yo usay so doesn't make it true.

The vast majority of people are not found in PvP or high end PvE. The vast majority of people is for whom the game should be balanced. Not the ultra-extremists who see the game in a single dimension.

Uryel · January 2019

InvictusApollo wrote: »

And Bosmer stealth detection is actually also something that I look for with anticipation. Why? Because I will be much safer in stealth mode since I will detect sneaking enemies before they attack me.
As for pve nerf... really? You are whining because you get some more challenge at sneaking? Really? It's already super easy. [/b]More challenge = more fun[/b].

Lovely contradiction there. Either more challenge is more fun, and then you really don't want to feel safer, or you really want to feel safer, and then challenge isn't all that important, right ?

But ok, let's say it's the same thing. I suppose that Khajiits will be ALOT less fun, with their major boost to stealth, then.

But ok, let's leave the Khajiits out of the discussion, it has nothing to do with it anyway. It's not about "more challenge", it's about forcing people to either change race or change gameplay. Characters that were created to be sneaky in PvE will now find themsemlves unable to do the same things as before. That +3m bonus allowed me to entirely avoid combat in delves if I wanted to, even in the ones with narrow passages. That won't be possible anymore. And that's only one exemple.

Let's put it some other way : do you think it's normal that Bosmers have exactly the same bonus to stealth (that is, zero) as Nords or Orcs ? Because that's what's happening. The scrawny, skinny, tiny wood elves known for their stealth will be as good at hiding as the massive built-like-a-brick-house warriors. Makes complete sense.

But ok, let's leave all that out of the way. Let's talk stats. Replacing stealth by stealth detection makes the Bosmers the ONLY race with a significant bonus that has zero use in PvE.

Now, let's take all this into account... This change sucks big time.

max_only · January 2019

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

OP wants no balance but Bosmer to be an ultimate Race!

@ZOS_Gilliam you did amazing job on racial balances, I hope ZOS will not get under pressure and re-buff races that no longer deserves.

Troll in the dungeon! Khajiit nightblades stealthing with better bonus and highest crit in game is apparently OK by this dude, but Bosmer keeping the stealth they've always had since the beginning of time is OP. Bruh, listen to yourself. NO ONE is asking for the 10% damage bonus. NO ONE is asking for Bosmer to be OP.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

Muskrap wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

You can still hide and snipe.

It's bewildering how some people can't comprehend that there are a ton of players out there who do not care for PvP. I don't give a flying hoot about sniping. I just want my character to keep functioning the way it did when I made her, since the stealth passive was the very reason I picked this race.

Except the game can not and should never be balanced by non PvP/high level PvE

The uses of stealth is completely useless in high level PvE, and only useful in PvP. Meaning that they needed to balance the stealth mechanic for it.

It's bewildering how some people can't comprehend how video games can't be balanced for people that aren't doing the end game content

Neither better stealth nor better detection has any measurable effect on high end pve or pvp so it is completely irrelevant to your balancing mantra. It does absolutely no harm to your playstyle either way, yet letting the bosmer keep their stealth would make a lot of people happy. And most players do not participate in high end stuff but they are paying just as much or little for the game as you. Keeping them happy and paying will also benefit your prefered playstyle.

To say that stealth has no measurable effect on pvp is nonsense. NBs are annoying as crap because of their invisibility and their damage from stealth makes their gank-play possible. Bosmers already have great bow use. They don't even have to put themselves in harms way. I've been killed from poison arrows so many times it's ridiculous, and I never saw who it was that shot me. Were they cloaked? I don't know. I was shot in the back or the side from a long distance while I was distracted. With that kind of ability, adding more stealth ability makes it redundant (in an op way).

So instead of Bosmer nightblades it will be Khajiit nightblades who are better hidden and have more crit. You read what you write bro? Giving Bosmer their old stealth radius (not damage bonus, stealth RADIUS) is going to do what to you? Really explain how it's "worse" for you compared to the Khajiit changes.

BlueRaven · January 2019

Uryel wrote: »

All this because someone in the maths team decided that "hey, let's make sure everything is fundamentally different" without even caring about how people actually play the game. As if there was ever a confusion between the Khajiits and the Bosmers.

When I first saw that worthless stealth detection my first thought was; “Oh, that’s just a typo. They just forgot to delete the word detection” or at one point Bosmer’s had 3m of stealth AND stealth detection they decided to change it at the last second deleting the stealth part by mistake.

It was the only thing I could think of that made sense with the “why we made this change” comment they added.

But the longer this goes on without any word that they made a mistake makes me think that they were actually serious about this change. And for the life of me I don’t understand what they were thinking.

Why would they even consider adding a PvP only passive? It’s just mind boggling.

(Side note: I believe during the beta they mentioned at one point they wanted to add a summon creature ability for Bosmers like they now have for wardens. But at the time they could not figure out how to implement it.
I think 3m of stealth plus a summon creature ability would be so perfect for their final passive. It fits the lore perfectly. Ah well, I know that won’t happen.)

Uryel · January 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

But the longer this goes on without any word that they made a mistake makes me think that they were actually serious about this change. And for the life of me I don’t understand what they were thinking

I'm afraid it's not a typo... As for "what they are thinking"', I believe it's because obviously people get confused between Khajiits and Bosmers. That make total sense :

- Appearance : Khajiits look like cats, Bosmers are elves and thus look like elves.

- Experience skll : Khajiits gain more experience with medium armor, Bosmers gain more experience with bow.

- Flavour bonus : Khajiits gain more chance to pickpocket, Bosmers take less fall damage

- Racial bonuses : Khajiits have slightly increased health and stamina recovery, Bosmers have a large stamina recovery ; Khajiits have an increase to weapon critical, Bosmers have an increase to their max stamina and some resists.

But of course, they do both have a bonus to stealth.

<sarcasm>

It's easy to see why people would think they are so alike, right ? I mean, there is totally no difference between them, considering they look alike (not !), gain XP in the same skills (not !), have the same flavour skill (not !), the same combat bonuses (not !)... So there was an absolute need for change. Obviously.

</sarcasm>

Nerouyn · February 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

(Side note: I believe during the beta they mentioned at one point they wanted to add a summon creature ability for Bosmers like they now have for wardens. But at the time they could not figure out how to implement it.

Not quite.

Originally the plan was for all races to have an active ability. Details on those were never officially released though. All we have is one reported leak. That paints the bosmer active as a temporary summon ultimate, so like the sorc atronach rather than the warden bear.

https://eldersouls.com/topic/4500-info-on-aldmeri-or-daggerfall-racial-skills/#entry29576

Briefly in one of the pre-release videos there was what appeared to be a summoned wolf. There was conjecture that this might have been the bosmer active ability but it may have belonged to wardens.

Racial actives weren't dropped because they couldn't figure out how to implement them. They were dropped for balance reasons.

BlueRaven · February 2019

Nerouyn wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

(Side note: I believe during the beta they mentioned at one point they wanted to add a summon creature ability for Bosmers like they now have for wardens. But at the time they could not figure out how to implement it.

Not quite.

Originally the plan was for all races to have an active ability. Details on those were never officially released though. All we have is one reported leak. That paints the bosmer active as a temporary summon ultimate, so like the sorc atronach rather than the warden bear.

https://eldersouls.com/topic/4500-info-on-aldmeri-or-daggerfall-racial-skills/#entry29576

Briefly in one of the pre-release videos there was what appeared to be a summoned wolf. There was conjecture that this might have been the bosmer active ability but it may have belonged to wardens.

Racial actives weren't dropped because they couldn't figure out how to implement them. They were dropped for balance reasons.

Yup. You said it a lot more eloquently than I did. When I said "But at the time they could not figure out how to implement it." I should have said "But at the time they could not figure out how to balance it" or something.

I stand corrected! Thank you!

Datthaw · February 2019

Uryel wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Uryel and @Everstorm

I retract my comment and apologize. After seeing this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme at least. It’s a bit absurd I must admit.

Thank you very much

On live, my bosmer can be almost as good as the khajiit shown in these pictures. But she's wearing one set to boost her stealth radius, and one to keep moving normally. I could theoretically be this stealthy, but at the cost of mobility, and at the cost of... Well, needing two sets just for that, which doesn't leave much room for combat flexibility. That isn't the focus of the character, though.

On PTS, Khajiits can be just as stealthy as I we are nowadays, WITHOUT any bonus gear. That is inded a tad bit extreme, but hey, I wouldn't mind all that much if the idea was to make one race stealthy AF and deprive the other from it entirely.

While most changes are adjustments (not all, but many), removing stealth from the bosmers is a radical change of what defines the race, and also goes against the lore soooo badly. I do understand that stealth is marginally used in game, that it has no use in trials and whatnot... Still, it is used, by people who play bosmers and not just only khajiits, many of those are not all that interested in raids ans high end content.

So basically, this update will kill the fun of all casual player who merely enjoys stealing sh*t and escaping the law. Among other things

Datthaw wrote: »

I don't think people understand how much of a trolly buff bosmer just got. That movement speed is awesome, and you're an idiot if you want a stealth passive over it.

Well I don't think you understand that some people do play differently from you and give zero f**ks about that speed bonus. But again, no one is complaining about the speed bonus. The problem is with stealth detection, absolutely useless in PvE, marginally useful in PvP, replacing a stealth bonus that may be marginally useful in PvE and PvP alike, that is at the core of how certain non-high-end-content characters have been created, and is also integral to the lore of the race.

If willing to play my character the way I like it, stealing sh*t and stuff, and a way that fits decades of lore, over some half-arsed competitive PvP gimmick makes me an idiot, then I'll gladly call myself an idiot. And as Georges Couteline would say, "Being taken for an imbecile by a fool is a delight for the finest minds".

Lol you realize you put forward the point that "people have different playstyles" and then get mad about me saying its a buff for a certain playstyle. Don't be a triggered hypocrite.

BlueRaven · February 2019

Datthaw wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Uryel and @Everstorm

I retract my comment and apologize. After seeing this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme at least. It’s a bit absurd I must admit.

Thank you very much

On live, my bosmer can be almost as good as the khajiit shown in these pictures. But she's wearing one set to boost her stealth radius, and one to keep moving normally. I could theoretically be this stealthy, but at the cost of mobility, and at the cost of... Well, needing two sets just for that, which doesn't leave much room for combat flexibility. That isn't the focus of the character, though.

On PTS, Khajiits can be just as stealthy as I we are nowadays, WITHOUT any bonus gear. That is inded a tad bit extreme, but hey, I wouldn't mind all that much if the idea was to make one race stealthy AF and deprive the other from it entirely.

While most changes are adjustments (not all, but many), removing stealth from the bosmers is a radical change of what defines the race, and also goes against the lore soooo badly. I do understand that stealth is marginally used in game, that it has no use in trials and whatnot... Still, it is used, by people who play bosmers and not just only khajiits, many of those are not all that interested in raids ans high end content.

So basically, this update will kill the fun of all casual player who merely enjoys stealing sh*t and escaping the law. Among other things

Datthaw wrote: »

I don't think people understand how much of a trolly buff bosmer just got. That movement speed is awesome, and you're an idiot if you want a stealth passive over it.

Well I don't think you understand that some people do play differently from you and give zero f**ks about that speed bonus. But again, no one is complaining about the speed bonus. The problem is with stealth detection, absolutely useless in PvE, marginally useful in PvP, replacing a stealth bonus that may be marginally useful in PvE and PvP alike, that is at the core of how certain non-high-end-content characters have been created, and is also integral to the lore of the race.

If willing to play my character the way I like it, stealing sh*t and stuff, and a way that fits decades of lore, over some half-arsed competitive PvP gimmick makes me an idiot, then I'll gladly call myself an idiot. And as Georges Couteline would say, "Being taken for an imbecile by a fool is a delight for the finest minds".

Lol you realize you put forward the point that "people have different playstyles" and then get mad about me saying its a buff for a certain playstyle. Don't be a triggered hypocrite.

It’s not hypocritical.

Stealth is useful in a broad range of play styles. Both PvP and PvE.

Stealth detection is useful only in a very particular play style. PvP only.

Edit:

And even in PvP the player is limiting themselves. Stealth detect is only good for detecting other players in close proximity in PvP.
But in Cyrodil stealth is more useful with a broader range of uses.
It’s a; gap closer, scouting tool, escape and hide utility.

Example; tonight in Cyrodil our first attempt at attacking a keep resulted in failure. I was caught inside the keep on my Bosmer. I was able to stealth around and give reports on the strength, movements, and numbers of the defenders. I was also able to res a few players who did not release. Having a bonus to stealth made that all a lot easier. Stealth detect would have been useless. (Unless it was another player looking for me, but they would have had to know to look for me in the first place.)