Khajit becomes the only option for effective stealth gameplay. Broken Bosmer.

Ragnaroek93

Heimpai wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

If you don't see how powerful this new passive is then you shouldn't talk about balance anyways. Having a race which supports mobility builds is a good thing and will enable a lot more builds than this gank stuff. You talk about offering more choices and meanwhile you want to limit the race to the Nb class (like it used to be), that's complete nonsense.

We all know the speed passive will get nerfed leaving bosmers with what? They literally just nerfed mobility so i don’t understand why they thought people would accept this

No, they overnerfed mobility and people realise how awful this perma snare and root meta is. There is a huge difference between playing a squishy race, a bow and being forced to dodgeroll actively and brawlers who just run around with perma 50% movespeed just with pots and Swift (and who just outrun damaged lol) with no further conditions.

InvictusApollo

Actually this Bosmer change is a huge buff to sniper gankers. They don't need to be more undetectable because they already attack from afar. However increasing their ability to detect stealthed enemies is a great defensive mechanism since one of the best ways to kill a sneaky sniper is to approach him while being invisible.
And the speed boost after rolling is such a great boon that I stopped considering changing my stamblade from Bosmer to sth else.

goldenarcher1

Just wondering what else will be in the natch potes on the PTS on Monday and how it will fit in with the racial changes.

Toc de Malsvi

BlueRaven wrote: »

evoniee wrote: »

i enjoyed tears of snipe spammers nightblade

You do realize they are not going away, right? Instead of them being Bosmer or kahjit they will just all be kahjits now, and with better stealth.

Enjoy your time in Cyrodil!!!!

Snipe Spammers wouldn't want Khajit as they can guarantee crits they don't need more crit chance. They are trying to hit near max range so additional stealth detection area reduction isn't that useful. Probably something like Dark elf would be more beneficial to gain additional weapon damage and more stam+mag than on Khajit.

sneakymitchell

Mintaka5 wrote: »

Tears of nightblades! So precious!

nsmurfer

BlueRaven wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I disagree with you. Both the Bosmer and Khajiit lost their stealthy passive. There is no magical stealthy bonus on either now.

You may need to re-read the racials. I believe kahjits stealth ability actually got a buff, not eliminated.

It was nerfed. the extra 10% opening damage was the main draw of the passive. In pvp You can't really on passive sneak to avoid enemies, cloak is the first option.

BlueRaven

nsmurfer wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I disagree with you. Both the Bosmer and Khajiit lost their stealthy passive. There is no magical stealthy bonus on either now.

You may need to re-read the racials. I believe kahjits stealth ability actually got a buff, not eliminated.

It was nerfed. the extra 10% opening damage was the main draw of the passive. In pvp You can't really on passive sneak to avoid enemies, cloak is the first option.

“Khajit becomes the only option for effective stealth gameplay. Broken Bosmer”

10% opening damage??? Are you sure you are in the right thread? This is about the nerf to Bosmers stealth ability.

Joy_Division

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

If you don't see how powerful this new passive is then you shouldn't talk about balance anyways. Having a race which supports mobility builds is a good thing and will enable a lot more builds than this gank stuff. You talk about offering more choices and meanwhile you want to limit the race to the Nb class (like it used to be), that's complete nonsense.

I agree and I am looking forward to playing my Bosmer next patch.

max_only

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Bosmer will be better; because at some point you will become unstealthed and 20% bonus speed on dodge is way better

"Better" only if we stop doing the things we use our Bosmers for and do something COMPLETELY different with them that we have no desire to do. It's like taking away somebody's computer and giving them a sledgehammer, and correctly pointing out that the sledgehammer is better for breaking rocks.

The difference is that your PvE roleplay doesn't require any min maxing, just slot a stealth set (like Night Mother's Embrace) and nothing will change for you. Heck, I've even done the thieves/db questlines on a light armor sorc without troubles. And once you get bored of it and want to do leaderboard content you won't be pissed, because that's currently the point where you would have to racechange. Just because you're not interested in this content (for now) doesn't mean that other players aren't interested as well.

Explain to me how stealth detection helps in Leaderboards. I’m all ears.

Cundu_Ertur

evoniee wrote: »

i enjoyed tears of snipe spammers nightblade

Actually won't affect them. They'll stay outside of detection range to get the Long Shots bonus, and they will still have their cloak anyways. What this affects is how close a stealthed bosmer can get to something, so pickpocket or moving thru a building to steal stuff. A Khajiit will be able to stand on a guard's toes without being noticed, but a bosmer will be no better at hiding up close than an orc.

BlueRaven

Wow. I think a lot of people here are missing the point of why I feel so many Bosmer players are upset.

If argonians swim speed buff was replaced with a slight increase in Cyrodil versatility I bet we would have a thousand threads asking for it’s reversal.

Swim speed does not boost damage, nor does it help avoid damage or increase sustain. It IS though a huge part of what makes Argonians a unique race.

I see the Bosmer change the same way. I like that when I go into restricted areas I am extra stealthy. I like being able sneak past things easier, it’s fun! It’s why I made my night blade, warden, and my now deleted dk Bosmers.

This thread is about STEALTH.

max_only

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Mintaka5 wrote: »

Tears of nightblades! So precious!

I wish pvpers would stay in their lane.

Absolutely no pvp nightblades are crying. Liquid is coming out but it’s not tears.

They get a stacking speed bonus when they roll dodge. They were going to roll dodge anyway with their bow equipped. With a bow, they don’t attack from up close so why do the pvp nightblades care about radius reduction?

But continue to lick it up I guess.

Cundu_Ertur

nsmurfer wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I disagree with you. Both the Bosmer and Khajiit lost their stealthy passive. There is no magical stealthy bonus on either now.

You may need to re-read the racials. I believe kahjits stealth ability actually got a buff, not eliminated.

It was nerfed. the extra 10% opening damage was the main draw of the passive. In pvp You can't really on passive sneak to avoid enemies, cloak is the first option.

I think I have read and commented in every thread where this issue has been brought up, and in exactly 0 have I seen anyone complaining about losing the 10% damage. In every one I see people complaining because the bosmers' ability to remain hidden at close range has been replaced with a worthless and anti-lore detection bonus. The 10% damage was nice, but it wasn't a part of the core identity of the race. Stealth is part of that identity. Khajiit lost the 10% damage along with Bosmer, but they not only kept but significantly improved their ability to remain hidden.

Zyreist

Having played through DB and TG DLCs with Khajiit, aswell as other races, I'd have to disagree with a racial stealth passive being necessary for effective stealth gameplay, even for heists and sacrements. Nor do you need to just spam cloak to avoid detection either. Do they make it considerably easier? Certainly. Rediculously, in some cases, as my khajiit(with stealth sets and passives of course) can practically walk right in front of guards without being seen.
The enhancement to that does very little except offset their detection in PvP, I expect, by the updated Bosmer(playing to their in lore conflicts, I'd imagine), as they can practicaly dance invisibly in your face as it is. Perhaps it facilitates khajiit being more stealthy without the set help?
While I've never had a Bosmeri character, I think there is something to be said for two different choices of improved stealth in PvE(for roleplay, or simple aesthetics preferences), though at present they seem to be looking to remodel bosmer into scouts, sentries and skirmishers, rather than thieves, spies and assassins.
Would it be too much for their internal balancing logic to add the old stealth boost back on beside the perception one? Seems they already have multiple passives giving triple bonuses(even if below average), and the +3m to both detection and stealth may be in keeping with that.
Though I will miss the stealth +10% damage bonus, it was a nice boost for assassinating NPCs who are immune to Blades of Woe with one hit kills, which while fun, isn't necessarily a core gameplay element. I will however look forward to testing these changes myself and seeing how they actually affect stealth in theory and in practice, before judging them too harshly.

Cundu_Ertur

Zyreist wrote: »

Having played through DB and TG DLCs with Khajiit, aswell as other races, I'd have to disagree with a racial stealth passive being necessary for effective stealth gameplay, even for heists and sacrements. Nor do you need to just spam cloak to avoid detection either. Do they make it considerably easier? Certainly. Rediculously, in some cases, as my khajiit(with stealth sets and passives of course) can practically walk right in front of guards without being seen.
The enhancement to that does very little except offset their detection in PvP, I expect, by the updated Bosmer(playing to their in lore conflicts, I'd imagine), as they can practicaly dance invisibly in your face as it is. Perhaps it facilitates khajiit being more stealthy without the set help?
While I've never had a Bosmeri character, I think there is something to be said for two different choices of improved stealth in PvE(for roleplay, or simple aesthetics preferences), though at present they seem to be looking to remodel bosmer into scouts, sentries and skirmishers, rather than thieves, spies and assassins.
Would it be too much for their internal balancing logic to add the old stealth boost back on beside the perception one? Seems they already have multiple passives giving triple bonuses(even if below average), and the +3m to both detection and stealth may be in keeping with that.
Though I will miss the stealth +10% damage bonus, it was a nice boost for assassinating NPCs who are immune to Blades of Woe with one hit kills, which while fun, isn't necessarily a core gameplay element. I will however look forward to testing these changes myself and seeing how they actually affect stealth in theory and in practice, before judging them too harshly.

Agree with what you say, mostly, except for " I think there is something to be said for two different choices of improved stealth in PvE." I mean, I agree with that, too, it's just with the changes as they are currently laid out, this isn't the case. There's one and only one improvement for stealth, and that's being Khajiit. If they take your sensible advice, however, then you would be correct. A smaller buff, like what exists now, along with a perception boost for Bosmer, and the larger buff for Khajiit.

Yes, the -10% bonus to ambush was nice, but we'll still have the base ambush bonus that every race gets so it's not a total loss. And the movement buff (if it survives) and crit chance improvments may make the stealth passives nice even for the players who don't like the stealth gameplay.

thedude33

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I disagree with you. Both the Bosmer and Khajiit lost their stealthy passive. There is no magical stealthy bonus on either now.

You may need to re-read the racials. I believe kahjits stealth ability actually got a buff, not eliminated.

It was nerfed. the extra 10% opening damage was the main draw of the passive. In pvp You can't really on passive sneak to avoid enemies, cloak is the first option.

I think I have read and commented in every thread where this issue has been brought up, and in exactly 0 have I seen anyone complaining about losing the 10% damage. In every one I see people complaining because the bosmers' ability to remain hidden at close range has been replaced with a worthless and anti-lore detection bonus. The 10% damage was nice, but it wasn't a part of the core identity of the race. Stealth is part of that identity. Khajiit lost the 10% damage along with Bosmer, but they not only kept but significantly improved their ability to remain hidden.

I was browsing the thread to see if anyone else was going to comment on this. In PvP this has a pretty big impact to damage.

BlueRaven

thedude33 wrote: »

I was browsing the thread to see if anyone else was going to comment on this. In PvP this has a pretty big impact to damage.

And has been pointed out many, many, many times, is a worthless pve talent. As it stands Bosmer is the only race that has a racial that is only useful in PvP.

There was zero need to lose their stealth bonus and the that it was replaced with a PvP talent suggest the designers made this change based on Cyrodil and not with lore or pve in mind.

Which is a [self edited as to not be banned from the chat, but imagine a lot of swear words] reason to change it.

max_only

thedude33 wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I disagree with you. Both the Bosmer and Khajiit lost their stealthy passive. There is no magical stealthy bonus on either now.

You may need to re-read the racials. I believe kahjits stealth ability actually got a buff, not eliminated.

It was nerfed. the extra 10% opening damage was the main draw of the passive. In pvp You can't really on passive sneak to avoid enemies, cloak is the first option.

I think I have read and commented in every thread where this issue has been brought up, and in exactly 0 have I seen anyone complaining about losing the 10% damage. In every one I see people complaining because the bosmers' ability to remain hidden at close range has been replaced with a worthless and anti-lore detection bonus. The 10% damage was nice, but it wasn't a part of the core identity of the race. Stealth is part of that identity. Khajiit lost the 10% damage along with Bosmer, but they not only kept but significantly improved their ability to remain hidden.

I was browsing the thread to see if anyone else was going to comment on this. In PvP this has a pretty big impact to damage.

As you can see, we pve sneak thieves are reasonable people. No one is arguing for that 10% bonus to damage. Every one of our threads just want to keep our sneaky little elves.... sneaky. Being more perceptive of hidden things is trait one associates with cats, but it’s tiny elves who are getting their radius increased.

Anotherone773

max_only wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

If you don't see how powerful this new passive is then you shouldn't talk about balance anyways. Having a race which supports mobility builds is a good thing and will enable a lot more builds than this gank stuff. You talk about offering more choices and meanwhile you want to limit the race to the Nb class (like it used to be), that's complete nonsense.

We are talking about the change that removes our stealth radius reduction and replaces it with 1- a stealth DETECTION radius which is patently useless in all gameplay and 2- a speed buff upon roll dodge that is obviously a pvp oriented change

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453572/bosmer-racial-change-that-is-illogical-and-unnecessary#latest

Khajiit and Bosmer having the same stealth passive gave people a choice between animal looking and humanoid looking for their thief and dB characters. Now only Khajiit is good for stealth pve gameplay.

This. I dont like Khajit really as a character to play. So i play Bosmer as my sneaky NB. I use my sneaky NB for sneaky NB PVE. Now i have to switch to Khajit to continue to have that same advantage.

What they need to stop doing is trying to balance both PVE and PVP. it isnt going to work it hasnt worked in any MMO in the 22 years of MMOs ive played. You have to separate pvp and pve in a game or one is always going to be broke.

Ri_Khan

The more I think about this the worse it gets. If tables were turned and Khajiit were losing this (I don't even play Bosmer), I'd be uninstalling and getting a refund for my sub immediately. To completely remove a passive like this after 5 years is too much. And stealth detection? Really? If this goes live, there's no way I'd choose a wood elf over other options for a new character..

For those that say that the stealth passive's useless anyway, following that same logic, why can't they just keep it in addition to the new ones then? Surely if it's so absolutely worthless it couldn't possibly make them an OP race, right???

Temeraire507

Ri_Khan wrote: »

For those that say that the stealth passive's useless anyway, following that same logic, why can't they just keep it in addition to the new ones then? Surely if it's so absolutely worthless it couldn't possibly make them an OP race, right???

It wouldn't make them OP in any way. But that is not how ZOS was balancing the races. Every races stats got balanced to be roughly 6,5 Set bonuses. 3 m detection and 3m less detection radius are both equal to one or maybe a half in quantity. That is why they would look overloaded in this system if they had both. The problem is that both are more equal to something like 0.1 set bonuses (probably even less) in reality comparing the strength not only the quantity of the bonus.

Cundu_Ertur

Temeraire507 wrote: »

Ri_Khan wrote: »

For those that say that the stealth passive's useless anyway, following that same logic, why can't they just keep it in addition to the new ones then? Surely if it's so absolutely worthless it couldn't possibly make them an OP race, right???

It wouldn't make them OP in any way. But that is not how ZOS was balancing the races. Every races stats got balanced to be roughly 6,5 Set bonuses. 3 m detection and 3m less detection radius are both equal to one or maybe a half in quantity. That is why they would look overloaded in this system if they had both. The problem is that both are more equal to something like 0.1 set bonuses (probably even less) in reality comparing the strength not only the quantity of the bonus.

At first I thought you were saying giving Bosmer both the see and not be seen bonuses would be too much, and I was going to RAGE and probably get banned, but now I'm thinking you are saying it really isn't in which case I'd agree and we'd be pals forever. Or something.

I haven't had my morning caffeine yet.


Just give bosmers their stealth back.

Cundu_Ertur

thedude33 wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I disagree with you. Both the Bosmer and Khajiit lost their stealthy passive. There is no magical stealthy bonus on either now.

You may need to re-read the racials. I believe kahjits stealth ability actually got a buff, not eliminated.

It was nerfed. the extra 10% opening damage was the main draw of the passive. In pvp You can't really on passive sneak to avoid enemies, cloak is the first option.

I think I have read and commented in every thread where this issue has been brought up, and in exactly 0 have I seen anyone complaining about losing the 10% damage. In every one I see people complaining because the bosmers' ability to remain hidden at close range has been replaced with a worthless and anti-lore detection bonus. The 10% damage was nice, but it wasn't a part of the core identity of the race. Stealth is part of that identity. Khajiit lost the 10% damage along with Bosmer, but they not only kept but significantly improved their ability to remain hidden.

I was browsing the thread to see if anyone else was going to comment on this. In PvP this has a pretty big impact to damage.

I dunno, does it? The way I always understood it was that everyone has a bonus to attacking from hiding, but Khajiit and Bosmer had a 10% bonus to that bonus; so it was a percentage of a percentage of the base attack. As a percentage of a percentage, it would never be all that huge. That's part of why I think the people who come in gloating that they are drinking the tears of gankers are deluding themselves; gankers ain't going anywhere. The other part is, the range of the stealth bonus doesn't matter since ganking is best done at range anyhow to get the long shots bonus -- which can be more substantial.

But I don't know for sure, my caffeine hasn't kicked in yet and my understanding of the base equations is minimal at best.

Temeraire507

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Temeraire507 wrote: »

Ri_Khan wrote: »

For those that say that the stealth passive's useless anyway, following that same logic, why can't they just keep it in addition to the new ones then? Surely if it's so absolutely worthless it couldn't possibly make them an OP race, right???

It wouldn't make them OP in any way. But that is not how ZOS was balancing the races. Every races stats got balanced to be roughly 6,5 Set bonuses. 3 m detection and 3m less detection radius are both equal to one or maybe a half in quantity. That is why they would look overloaded in this system if they had both. The problem is that both are more equal to something like 0.1 set bonuses (probably even less) in reality comparing the strength not only the quantity of the bonus.

At first I thought you were saying giving Bosmer both the see and not be seen bonuses would be too much, and I was going to RAGE and probably get banned, but now I'm thinking you are saying it really isn't in which case I'd agree and we'd be pals forever. Or something.

I haven't had my morning caffeine yet.


Just give bosmers their stealth back.

Yes I agree with you that giving bosmers stealth back wouldn't hurt anyone

Cundu_Ertur

Temeraire507 wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Temeraire507 wrote: »

Ri_Khan wrote: »

For those that say that the stealth passive's useless anyway, following that same logic, why can't they just keep it in addition to the new ones then? Surely if it's so absolutely worthless it couldn't possibly make them an OP race, right???

It wouldn't make them OP in any way. But that is not how ZOS was balancing the races. Every races stats got balanced to be roughly 6,5 Set bonuses. 3 m detection and 3m less detection radius are both equal to one or maybe a half in quantity. That is why they would look overloaded in this system if they had both. The problem is that both are more equal to something like 0.1 set bonuses (probably even less) in reality comparing the strength not only the quantity of the bonus.

At first I thought you were saying giving Bosmer both the see and not be seen bonuses would be too much, and I was going to RAGE and probably get banned, but now I'm thinking you are saying it really isn't in which case I'd agree and we'd be pals forever. Or something.

I haven't had my morning caffeine yet.


Just give bosmers their stealth back.

Yes I agree with you that giving bosmers stealth back wouldn't hurt anyone

Pals forever! Or until we disagree about something pointless and trivial in which case we hates it, precious, we hates it forever.

Or maybe I'm over caffeinated now.

dodgehopper_ESO

BlueRaven wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I disagree with you. Both the Bosmer and Khajiit lost their stealthy passive. There is no magical stealthy bonus on either now.

You may need to re-read the racials. I believe kahjits stealth ability actually got a buff, not eliminated.

I reread it. You're right. They added it into the carnage passive.

Juhasow

BlueRaven wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

If all it takes is a loss of 3 meters from the Sneaky Race passive to remove your ability to sneak then I don't know what to tell you.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Seriously Bosmer is looking good right now. "Stealth based" gameplay is largely a fiction in ESO, only maintained in questing.

Invisibility through Cloak is the predominant "stealth" effect and has nothing to do with the racial stealth area reduction or damage passives.

I just don't get how people are complaining about this.

Your focus is on the wrong part of this.

When do you use stealth detection in this game? Let me know. Useless passive is useless.

U use stealth detection in PvP if you want to see the person sitting in stealth before they can see you.

So it's only useful in PvP, meanwhile stealth is useful in PvE AND PvP...

Will any other race have a passive that is only good for PvP?

1% more AP on breton

SydneyGrey

Stx wrote: »

I personally feel that stealth based racials are bad in general because they are 100% useless for all non stealth builds.

But they traded them for PvP-exclusive passives, that are 100% useless for all non-PvP builds. That's not an improvement as far as I'm concerned.

Elijah_Crow

Even re-reading the intent, it's clear that at some point this went in the wrong direction.

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.


A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

Actually you kept no part of the Wood Elf version of this passive, except for in the Khajiit racial bonuses.

Since so many can't be bothered to sneak about, why give us a passive that increases stealth detection?


This change does more harm than good and removes viable stealthy race choices. Just revert to 3 meters of reduced stealth detection and you will have a much happier community and more choices in character creation.

Shimmer

They didn’t keep any of the prior racial bonus to stealth, but it’s cute they said so!