shadowofnarsil wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

2. As you move from 20k towards 30k you are reaching a dps level that nobody can just intuitively attain. That level of Dps requires research to understand what combinations of sets can do it, what spell bar set ups are required, and specific rotations of casting spells, and then you practicing it for hours on a dummy. Nobody does what you did and hits 30k dps. You can not just play the game and one day have 30k+ dps. You will need help to do that.

@ Morgha_Kul
Couldn’t agree more with the above statement. Along similar lines, and regardless of whether you are aiming for 10k or 50k, I had made a comment on another thread that starts to get at basic DPS strategy, that may be helpful for improving DPS gameplay in general.

CompM4s wrote: »

The most annoying person in group is the guy who constantly mentions his cherry picked 50k solo parse non buffed super skills.

BejaProphet wrote: »

It is impossible to give anything but opinion as an answer to your question. But here goes...

I think it is somewhere between 10-15k before you really are actually a damage dealer role. This is where you start doing an amount of damage that a healer or tank won’t also do.

At 20k dps I could probably take you through nearly any content in the game, but that’s not “good.”

As you progress from 20k to 30k, you are moving from what somebody can intuitively develop to something you have had to do serious work on. And you will be fantastic in groups and very welcome. When I swap my tank with 59 attribute points into health, into my dps gear, I can do 29.5k dps. ( but I had to research and work hard to learn to do that, it doesn’t just happen.)

As you move from 30k to closer to 40k you are entering into the pinnacle area of a respectable veteran trials parse.

As you go from 40k closer to 50k you are probably the right class, a perfect build, and at least a bit of a rare talent all combined.

ArenGesus wrote: »

Madrajin wrote: »

The other problem I have with the current state of things is how really high DPS is only possible using largely cookie-cutter builds. This seems crazy to me in a game that was designed to give players massive freedom in how they build their characters.

This seems to be a common complaint, but it's only natural, isn't it? I mean, you can get high DPS on non-standard builds, however the current definition of "high" DPS is set by the optimal combinations of gear/rotation for a given class. "High" is subjective until a benchmark is set. The benchmark at the moment is defined by current meta because it's optimal.

If the game were made fresh with all new gear/skills/classes/races, players would immediately set out to find what combos work optimally together and determine which among them work the absolute best. Now there is a new benchmark against which all others are judged. Right now, 30k dps is probably considered reasonably high (not top tier, but still subjectively "high"). But as soon as somebody figures out how to reliably push the 55k mark generally considered to be top tier range to a point where they get an average of 75k - suddenly 50 is the new 30. Of course others will duplicate that setup and attempt to achieve the same. Most won't because they aren't the same level of player - instead of 75, they'll get 50. That's the new normal.

There are a lot of unused skills and sets available in the game and I think the suggestion is that if some were reworked so that you had several different ways to achieve 50k dps, there would be more diversity. I just don't think it's true though. I think some really talented player would look at all of the options and determine among them which is the actual best possible combination of abilities and gear. And that's what everybody who chases meta will want, even though they could have diversity along with a 1% to 5% DPS loss.

I mean really, if you were to slot something other than bow on your dw stam build, your dps would surely be impacted in a very meaningful way. But there are other skills to be used in place of hail. Not as good by a fair margin, true - but they do exist. I haven't tried this, so am speculating, but if my 40k dps sDK dropped bow in favor of something else, would I really lose so much DPS that I wouldn't be able to run trials anymore? Not so sure about that. I would definitely no longer be optimal, but that's not the same thing as not viable. I'm guessing I'd still be over 30k, which will get you through an awful lot of content. And at 30k, it would still be considered a "high" dps build, depending on who you ask.

Looking at Liko's 60k+ sDK parse using a gold vMA bow (https://imgur.com/Rm0U13I), it looks like roughly 17% of his damage comes from a combination of hail and poison injection. I might have that wrong a little because as a console player am unfamiliar with combat metrics - but that's what it looks like to me. Applying that math to a 40k parse puts you at over 30k dps while dropping the bow entirely and not even replacing it with other skills. Maybe a two-handed swipe here and there will get you back a couple of percentages. In the grand scheme of things, no big deal. Probably still hitting 35k or more in the end. Somebody better at this type of analysis will surely correct me if I'm wrong, but the point is that it's not totally the end of the world, just no longer the very best.

I mean, I'm not going to do it. In fact the opposite - currently I'm farming vMA for what is turning out to be, for me, an exceptionally elusive bow. I want everything to die when I just give it a funny look. I'm just saying, I don't think it's fair to say that you have to run the cookie-cutter to get "high" dps. You do to get the highest possible dps. Big difference. I think the opportunity for build diversity is there, it's just that nobody wants it.

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx wrote: »

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMU8maFYegl2aNBz-0pnWQrkj84eLAK7Cank0U7

I hit 27k the other day on my Stamblade. The only thing wrong with my build is I'm using wrong weapons and they're sharpened, not infused. I've been farming for the one last weapon I need but RPG doesn't like me.

Build is 5 Hundings (golded), 4 Veiled Heritance (jewelry, gold bow), 2 Stormfist (gold), 2 Night's Silence I think (for the stam. purple, sharpened)

I've got the rotation down more or less but the weapons are holding me back

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

It's a shame, but while any interesting build can be brought up to 25-30k dps you really want 35k or more for vet trials, preferably upwards of 50k.

Basically you play the exact same item sets and master weapons and abilities regardless of class.
You stack the same buffs, use the same enchantments, same mundus stone.

You will find as you try to make your own build that if you take a "meta" build and try to edit it at all you will drop down to like 30k dps immediately because its so carefully constructed, every ability procs something, or keeps a debuff or buff up.

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I don’t mean for this to sound harsh, but someone is carrying you. They are making up for your deficit by pulling higher numbers themselves or they are contributing a large amount of time with repeated tries to get bosses down, etc.

I personally try to pull strong numbers and have worked hard to get to my 32k DPS in order to be able to accomplish harder content with friends who are just not interested in min maxing. I know what I signed up for but it would surely take some pressure off if they invested a little time in getting their DPS a little higher. A little effort goes a long way and would make runs a more fun and less stressful.

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

shadowofnarsil wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

2. As you move from 20k towards 30k you are reaching a dps level that nobody can just intuitively attain. That level of Dps requires research to understand what combinations of sets can do it, what spell bar set ups are required, and specific rotations of casting spells, and then you practicing it for hours on a dummy. Nobody does what you did and hits 30k dps. You can not just play the game and one day have 30k+ dps. You will need help to do that.

@ Morgha_Kul
Couldn’t agree more with the above statement. Along similar lines, and regardless of whether you are aiming for 10k or 50k, I had made a comment on another thread that starts to get at basic DPS strategy, that may be helpful for improving DPS gameplay in general.

I agree with both these gentlemen on this point. I would also add that the biggest reason most DPS don’t try to learn more, is that they think they do more damage than they actually do.

I was talking to a friend about DPS and I just mentioned that when doing Vet Dungeons as long as we were all doing at least 20K we should be fine. (I parse at 32k) He had no idea how how much he was actually doing and went to a dummy. He found out that he was only doing 10k DPS.

After a little work and tweaks he was up to 16K with a really sloppy rotation. With a little muscle memory he will be at 20k.

So, if you’re a DPS player and want to see all the Vet Dungeon content or beyond and have never parsed on a 6 mil dummy, do yourself (and your friends) a favor and go see how much damage you really do. Sticking your head in the sand and just saying “I do fine in Dungeons” isn’t helping anyone. At least know what you are and are not capable of.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I always play my characters as characters. That is, I choose their gear based on who they are, what their abilities should be. That's why Morgha Kul uses the Defiler set even though it's not optimal... it's because it's in CHARACTER. Same with my skill selection (which is why the 1H & Shield set is such a disappointment, being nearly useless in all situations).

Now, I don't condemn anyone that wants to get that maximal damage output. I have no problem if they trivialize the game for themselves. However, I DO become concerned when that allows them to spoil the game for OTHER people, as happened to me tonight (for the umpteenth time). Again, I don't blame the players for this, this is a design choice by the devs.

I think perhaps some kind of mechanism of diminishing returns would have been in order, so you could get more damage output, but the degree would become less and less the more you had. That would have made it possible to get to a certain point with relative ease, but still allow content to be challenging, even beyond that point.

Look i inderstand the sentiment for desiring a more dangerous, threatening / challenging overworld but that is an issue with power creep and creating a world that scales and accommodates players of all level ranges. As the saying goes, "you cant have your cake and eat it too".

Here is the issue. Arbitrarily gimping players so that content like public dungeons become "hard" solves no problems and only makes players feel worse for becoming stronger. There are plenty of high cp optimized characters that players would LOVE to have a meaningful challange for regarding the questing experience. Summerset and murkmire woiuld be infinitely more engaging to me had they been actually dangerous places where i had to flex the entire bredth of my characters range of power. But that isnt the case and it has nothing to do with trivializing the game for myself because i assure you, the MOST basic setup with even a hint of understanding how characters work would have you steam roll through overworld content at max level. And everything that isnt overworld content demands more optimized builds. Those anecdotal examples you sight could just as easily been some random guy who normally does vet trials or vet dlc duengoens or pvp, just so happened to need some extra skill points or whatever so they are going through and knocking out the public Dungeon achievements or whatever. Arbitrarily gimping yourself by unequiping gear or whatever is also a joke to be frank.

Your reasons for being particularly weak seem to be RP based. And for that there is no solution for you. Like it or not, eso is not a solo experience and you will rarley have an open delve or dungeon for yourself to "adventure through" with a challenge. The irony here is that the main reason zos doesnt bump up the difficulty for overworld content is precisely because of players like you, who would likely struggle a GREAT deal if zos came out and said "hey everyone, with cp and all the gear available etc etc, we find the overal difficuly of overworld content to be too easy and are going to make things harder, which means players will have to play more solid with more well built characters" or whatever. Your defiler magsorc would not succeed at much.

And this says nothing of the fact that these public dungeons and delves have little enough incentive that they are rarely over populated. Your suggestion to make them harder for stronger players would require some type of attractive incentive to even bother with them at that point. And if the incentive is meaningful, then all 5hats going to happen is you will see zerg trains doing what that one player was doing that ruined your immersion expect your immersion will be ruined with addtional fps drops.