SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Thanatos_inside wrote: »

and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

This set is way more usefull on a PVE stamdk than in pvp...youd have to run Deadly strike and bloodroot set to get super strong bleeds...but drop sustain or survivability sets ...so its tradeoff in pvp dont you think?

boaz733 wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Thanatos_inside wrote: »

and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

This set is way more usefull on a PVE stamdk than in pvp...youd have to run Deadly strike and bloodroot set to get super strong bleeds...but drop sustain or survivability sets ...so its tradeoff in pvp dont you think?

no, ignoring armor completely is too strong regardless of what sets u use.

Thanatos_inside wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Thanatos_inside wrote: »

and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

This set is way more usefull on a PVE stamdk than in pvp...youd have to run Deadly strike and bloodroot set to get super strong bleeds...but drop sustain or survivability sets ...so its tradeoff in pvp dont you think?

1 set for survivability, 2 for bleeds, sustain pff run serpent mundus +blood spawn. Bleeds will hit hard anyway

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

We are still closely monitoring the bleed from these passives, and investigating ways to better distinguish the play patterns that Axes and Maces provide

From the patch notes, I don't believe they are quite done with bleeds yet.

It would be nice if maces helped bleeds somehow, like daggers let it crit more and swords increase the damage, axes are fine though, they just add another blood and don't add anything to your base stats

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

We are still closely monitoring the bleed from these passives, and investigating ways to better distinguish the play patterns that Axes and Maces provide

From the patch notes, I don't believe they are quite done with bleeds yet.

It would be nice if maces helped bleeds somehow, like daggers let it crit more and swords increase the damage, axes are fine though, they just add another blood and don't add anything to your base stats

the uselessness of maces is a whole other stroy...
in PVP they might have a really small field of use, but PVE wise they're useless
their effect is calculated after penetration like major breach / fracture ect...making the % value at the end do like 100 Pen or so....just bad design.

Giving maces bonusdmg against blocking targets would be even more usefull than their actual % Pen bonus

Your whole statement is overblown.

maces percentage based pen is calculated after debuffs, like alkosh and fracture but before self pen buffs, like lover or sharpened or the cp node. like this-

Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000)))

so the best you can get in debuffs is 12,351 out of 18200, that is will gold alkosh and and infused TP crusher and both fractures, leaving 5,849 armor. A single mace will still give you 585 pen after that, dual maces will give you 1170, in the absolute worst case for them, most of the time you will have more armor left, mostly becuase main tank rarely have TP on. Still a more then 1/2% DPS increase, in the absolute worst case. Lover with 7 gold divines is 4,196, that would still leave 1067 armor. usually you would have to use cp to cover this, but using maces you can put those points elsewhere. in aoe situations, where major fracture is not on most targets, maces are the best to use.

full surce here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

relevent part here-

4. Armor Penetration and Mitigation

This is probably the most complex part of damage calculation, simply because the formula is a bit unintuitive. In ESO, every enemy (may it be a NPC or a player) has a resistance value. You can circumvent that resistance by using items and passives that let you "pierce" through the armor and deal higher damage to the target. So in general, you want to circumvent all armor the enemy has to deal "true" damage. This can either be achieved through own penetration, meaning all sets, buffs etc that increase your own armor penetration rating, or through debuffing the enemy, and thus reducing resistances. There are % amps and flat stats for penetration, and I will go through it in detail

The formula looks like this:

Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000))))

So we start with 1. We start with one because the "true" damage let's us do the full damage. If we manage to achieve the full penetration, we simply do not deduct anything from 1, and therefore do the full unmitigated damage.

Then we have the target's resistance, which is 18200 in PvE for all veteran content mobs and target dummies. In PvP, it depends on how much spell or physical resitance your target has. Then we deduct all the debuffs the target has on it. There are multiple debuffs that apply to this category, such as major and minor fracture or breach (5280 and 1320, respectively), the 5- piece of roar of alkosh (3010) and the crusher weapon enchantment (which is amplifiable with torug's pact and infused and yields 1622, 2108 and 2741, respectively).

Afterwards we deduct % penetration amps, such as the Maul + Mace bonuses that ignore up to 20% of the target's resistance. The key takeaway here is that these %- amps are applied after debuffs, but not after your own penetration. This means that major and minor fracture reduce the effectiveness of mauls and maces, but sets like spriggan, twice-fanged serpent, penetration cps etc do NOT. So be aware which debuffs you have available, because if there are only few debuffs, you might even be better off with a mace over a dagger. The Break-even point between amces and daggers lies somewhere around 5000 & 6000 of penetration debuffs (which is often achieved in trials, but less in four man and solo content). I can provide statistics on this upon request.

After that, your own penetration value is deducted, so here's where most of the sets and the lover mundus belong. You might notice how penetration is mostly shown as a flat value, such as 5280 and 1320 for the major and minor debuffs. This needs to be converted into a % value so we can multiply it with the rest. That's what the denominator of the above formula is for:

The effectiveness of penetration depends on the level of the target. In PvE, enemies are considered as level 50 because they don't have CPs, so the denominator in these cases is 50000, while in PvP it is mostly 66000.

NOTE: There are some types of damage that ignore armor resistance either way, notably bleeds and oblivion damage. Both of these cannot be mitigated, so skills that indicate that they let enemies "bleed" or deal oblivion damage will always inflict their true damage value. This is mostly irrelevant for PvE, but in PvP, this is often an effective strategy against targets with high resistances.

and here-

Masel wrote: »

There you go:



This shows how much mitigation you have to achieve in order to reach the break-even point between a dagger and a mace.

This depends largely on the critical chance and critical damage you have. If your critical chance is low, a dagger is giving you more additional damage than in a scenario where you already have more critical chance.

Example: If you are a stamina sorcerer that has 50% critical chance before the 5% from the dagger is added, you'd be better off using a amce if your enemy with 18200 resistance has less than 7065 of debuffs on him. So in any case where that is not achieved, a mace will give you more damage than a dagger. If you have 64% critical chance prior to a dagger (if you are khajiit, use advancing yokeda or something similar), then you need 7719 of debuffs to benefit more from a dagger than a mace.

What I'm saying is that since the removal of Unique Penetration Debuffs, the border between thos weapons has been reduced significantly, since you can not obtain that amount of penetration as easily. On bosses yes, but in many trials where you are alone and Tanks will not debuff enemies enough (2nd Boss Upstairs vHoF, 4th Boss vHoF, vCR if you go in the shadow realm, vAS for protectors and minibosses etc), then you can also use a mace. Nightblades have a higher critical base chance due to their assassination passive, but also have higher critical damage.

the above spoiler is about a single mace, 10%, you have 2, so the amount penetrated is 20%, the same as a 2 hander maul, this is what he had to say about a 2h maul-

@Masel A maul will be better than a greatsword in most situations. All you'd have to change is the value from 10% to 20% and the sword bonus from 2.5% to 5%. I ran a few tests now and the value is very high, often above 10k penetration debuffs (which is very very unralistic to have).

To the second point: Because many people either don't test things or simply have no idea what they are talking about. Statements like the ones that discredited yours are simply wrong. Using alkosh as a flat 3k is simply unrealistic, you wont have a crusher enchant on everything you hit, not even talking about major and minor fracture. There are trials like vAA, alright, there it might be realistic, but in the newer trials it is simply not feasible to use that kind of math at all.

also, don't look at the pen that combat metrix states there, it uses your physical resist to the amount the 20% penetrated. this is a bug with the way the game handles the request for the number, see here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5443982#Comment_5443982

Maybe my statement is overblown a little bit, but still in PVE raids with runnign the Lover (what all stamms do atm, since they nerfed NMG and SF), maces are not worth slotting...else everybody would run them..

the fact that we get already 18k pen with all debuffs inkl. mundus +CP Pen already says enough, then 10% cirt is just flat out stronger then some % based Penetration.

Yes IF I run solo I wont hit the Cap, but even then with 11k I wont farm / craft a second pair of DW weapons (maces) just to get to pen cap, I'd rather slot TFS or Spriggans, which would end up (with lover on about 15-16k penetration)
Major Fracture + CP + Lover + TFS = 5280+4300+4800+ 2000 (CP) = 16.380 Pen...(if you have acces to Major Fracture ofc)
(rounded some numbers, like Lover and CP since they depend on gear (divine) and CP allocation)

In PVP maces might be strong, idk, PVP is not why I play this game, but there the Armor Cap is way higher than in PVE where bosses and Addds dont exceed 18,2k resistance.

JPcrazysquirrel3 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Thanatos_inside wrote: »

and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

... we've had a set that buffs bleeds since Horns of the Reach. Does anyone actually use Blooddrinker?

I do.

Blooddrinker, Savage Werewolf and Balorgh's on a stamblade.

He's squishy and has poopy recovery, but he can gank like there's no tomorrow.

Azurya wrote: »

boaz733 wrote: »

u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.

Azurya wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Azurya wrote: »

boaz733 wrote: »

u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.

prob the most wrong thing I've read in a long time tbh (no offense tho)

Bleeds ignore resistances, which in a Raid should already be close to 0...therefore other DOTS benefit way more to be used in a Raind then bleeds do
Bleeds are strong on a Dummy, where resistances arent close to 0, or when doin content for which penetration is not high enough.

YOu can definetly run a Raid on stamina without slotting rending slashes and still do great, maybe its a bit less dmg of, since youre loosing a dot, but other then that youre fine

ah, yes get your point, as Stambuild I can always try to interrupt or put the boss off-balance or pray or shed vigor, nice, but that was not what I am thinking about, and THAT is exactly the reason why seldom see any stamina-build in a raid video!!

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Azurya wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Azurya wrote: »

boaz733 wrote: »

u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.

prob the most wrong thing I've read in a long time tbh (no offense tho)

Bleeds ignore resistances, which in a Raid should already be close to 0...therefore other DOTS benefit way more to be used in a Raind then bleeds do
Bleeds are strong on a Dummy, where resistances arent close to 0, or when doin content for which penetration is not high enough.

YOu can definetly run a Raid on stamina without slotting rending slashes and still do great, maybe its a bit less dmg of, since youre loosing a dot, but other then that youre fine

ah, yes get your point, as Stambuild I can always try to interrupt or put the boss off-balance or pray or shed vigor, nice, but that was not what I am thinking about, and THAT is exactly the reason why seldom see any stamina-build in a raid video!!

What are you even talking about? Go look at current vHoF scores, they're all stacking 8 stambuilds for the most part lol. Not just that, stamina dps has been in raids for a long time now, and even being some of the strongest dps. Now there are places, such as Cloudrest and Asylum where magicka builds are the better choice, but that's because of badly made mechanics over the strength of stam vs. magicka.

As it stands now, bleeds are way too strong, and even with the "nerf" they've been given a set that brings them right back up.

Bleeds are overperforming as a whole, adding a new set buffing bleeds certainly doesnt help, but it also is not the reason why the Bleeds already overperform now on live.

Do you think that Deadly strike will be widely used in PVP?

Im planning on running it on my stamDK for PVE, since it has a great synergy with all the DOTs ofc....but its already close in terms of dps, compared with AY, any nerfs would probably make the set useless for PVE again.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Bleeds are a dumb design, being basically free while ignoring resistances and block. But the main issue imo is master weapons, they make rending deal insane damage.

Out of the 2 bleeds in my recap guess who is using master weapons... http://prntscr.com/mekt5f