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bleeds are too strong.

  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

    This set is way more usefull on a PVE stamdk than in pvp...youd have to run Deadly strike and bloodroot set to get super strong bleeds...but drop sustain or survivability sets ...so its tradeoff in pvp dont you think?
    PC EU
    vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vMSA

    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Master Angler / PVP Noob^^

    Exceed Gaming
  • Thanatos_inside
    and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

    This set is way more usefull on a PVE stamdk than in pvp...youd have to run Deadly strike and bloodroot set to get super strong bleeds...but drop sustain or survivability sets ...so its tradeoff in pvp dont you think?

    1 set for survivability, 2 for bleeds, sustain pff run serpent mundus +blood spawn. Bleeds will hit hard anyway
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    boaz733 wrote: »
    and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

    This set is way more usefull on a PVE stamdk than in pvp...youd have to run Deadly strike and bloodroot set to get super strong bleeds...but drop sustain or survivability sets ...so its tradeoff in pvp dont you think?

    no, ignoring armor completely is too strong regardless of what sets u use.

    agreed, bleeds need to be tuned down!
    but we cant blame a set thats not even live to be the culprid can we? ^^
    and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

    This set is way more usefull on a PVE stamdk than in pvp...youd have to run Deadly strike and bloodroot set to get super strong bleeds...but drop sustain or survivability sets ...so its tradeoff in pvp dont you think?

    1 set for survivability, 2 for bleeds, sustain pff run serpent mundus +blood spawn. Bleeds will hit hard anyway

    Plese enlighten me here I dont get the gear setup you're reffering to... seems 1 set to much in my head tbh :/

    atm AFAIK they use Masters DW, Blodroot set + sustain / suvivability set.

    you could swap Masters DW for bloodspawn ok -> not worth IMO masters DW too strong in PVP atm

    Changeing the suvivability / sustain set for Deadly strike leaves you without defense -> you die or go out of stam, then you die

    so I dont see why you try to nerf a set, thats not even on Live yet...bleeds are already a problem, this set wnont change this fact.
    PC EU
    vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vMSA

    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Master Angler / PVP Noob^^

    Exceed Gaming
  • Thanatos_inside
    boaz733 wrote: »
    and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

    This set is way more usefull on a PVE stamdk than in pvp...youd have to run Deadly strike and bloodroot set to get super strong bleeds...but drop sustain or survivability sets ...so its tradeoff in pvp dont you think?

    no, ignoring armor completely is too strong regardless of what sets u use.

    agreed, bleeds need to be tuned down!
    but we cant blame a set thats not even live to be the culprid can we? ^^
    and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

    This set is way more usefull on a PVE stamdk than in pvp...youd have to run Deadly strike and bloodroot set to get super strong bleeds...but drop sustain or survivability sets ...so its tradeoff in pvp dont you think?

    1 set for survivability, 2 for bleeds, sustain pff run serpent mundus +blood spawn. Bleeds will hit hard anyway

    Plese enlighten me here I dont get the gear setup you're reffering to... seems 1 set to much in my head tbh :/

    atm AFAIK they use Masters DW, Blodroot set + sustain / suvivability set.

    you could swap Masters DW for bloodspawn ok -> not worth IMO masters DW too strong in PVP atm

    Changeing the suvivability / sustain set for Deadly strike leaves you without defense -> you die or go out of stam, then you die

    so I dont see why you try to nerf a set, thats not even on Live yet...bleeds are already a problem, this set wnont change this fact.

    just saying they are adding things which bleeds up
  • ChefZero
    ChefZero
    ✭✭✭
    We are still closely monitoring the bleed from these passives, and investigating ways to better distinguish the play patterns that Axes and Maces provide

    From the patch notes, I don't believe they are quite done with bleeds yet.

    It would be nice if maces helped bleeds somehow, like daggers let it crit more and swords increase the damage, axes are fine though, they just add another blood and don't add anything to your base stats
    We are still closely monitoring the bleed from these passives, and investigating ways to better distinguish the play patterns that Axes and Maces provide

    From the patch notes, I don't believe they are quite done with bleeds yet.

    It would be nice if maces helped bleeds somehow, like daggers let it crit more and swords increase the damage, axes are fine though, they just add another blood and don't add anything to your base stats

    the uselessness of maces is a whole other stroy...
    in PVP they might have a really small field of use, but PVE wise they're useless
    their effect is calculated after penetration like major breach / fracture ect...making the % value at the end do like 100 Pen or so....just bad design.

    Giving maces bonusdmg against blocking targets would be even more usefull than their actual % Pen bonus

    Your whole statement is overblown.

    maces percentage based pen is calculated after debuffs, like alkosh and fracture but before self pen buffs, like lover or sharpened or the cp node. like this-
    Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000)))

    so the best you can get in debuffs is 12,351 out of 18200, that is will gold alkosh and and infused TP crusher and both fractures, leaving 5,849 armor. A single mace will still give you 585 pen after that, dual maces will give you 1170, in the absolute worst case for them, most of the time you will have more armor left, mostly becuase main tank rarely have TP on. Still a more then 1/2% DPS increase, in the absolute worst case. Lover with 7 gold divines is 4,196, that would still leave 1067 armor. usually you would have to use cp to cover this, but using maces you can put those points elsewhere. in aoe situations, where major fracture is not on most targets, maces are the best to use.

    full surce here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

    relevent part here-
    4. Armor Penetration and Mitigation

    This is probably the most complex part of damage calculation, simply because the formula is a bit unintuitive. In ESO, every enemy (may it be a NPC or a player) has a resistance value. You can circumvent that resistance by using items and passives that let you "pierce" through the armor and deal higher damage to the target. So in general, you want to circumvent all armor the enemy has to deal "true" damage. This can either be achieved through own penetration, meaning all sets, buffs etc that increase your own armor penetration rating, or through debuffing the enemy, and thus reducing resistances. There are % amps and flat stats for penetration, and I will go through it in detail

    The formula looks like this:

    Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000))))

    So we start with 1. We start with one because the "true" damage let's us do the full damage. If we manage to achieve the full penetration, we simply do not deduct anything from 1, and therefore do the full unmitigated damage.

    Then we have the target's resistance, which is 18200 in PvE for all veteran content mobs and target dummies. In PvP, it depends on how much spell or physical resitance your target has. Then we deduct all the debuffs the target has on it. There are multiple debuffs that apply to this category, such as major and minor fracture or breach (5280 and 1320, respectively), the 5- piece of roar of alkosh (3010) and the crusher weapon enchantment (which is amplifiable with torug's pact and infused and yields 1622, 2108 and 2741, respectively).

    Afterwards we deduct % penetration amps, such as the Maul + Mace bonuses that ignore up to 20% of the target's resistance. The key takeaway here is that these %- amps are applied after debuffs, but not after your own penetration. This means that major and minor fracture reduce the effectiveness of mauls and maces, but sets like spriggan, twice-fanged serpent, penetration cps etc do NOT. So be aware which debuffs you have available, because if there are only few debuffs, you might even be better off with a mace over a dagger. The Break-even point between amces and daggers lies somewhere around 5000 & 6000 of penetration debuffs (which is often achieved in trials, but less in four man and solo content). I can provide statistics on this upon request.

    After that, your own penetration value is deducted, so here's where most of the sets and the lover mundus belong. You might notice how penetration is mostly shown as a flat value, such as 5280 and 1320 for the major and minor debuffs. This needs to be converted into a % value so we can multiply it with the rest. That's what the denominator of the above formula is for:

    The effectiveness of penetration depends on the level of the target. In PvE, enemies are considered as level 50 because they don't have CPs, so the denominator in these cases is 50000, while in PvP it is mostly 66000.

    NOTE: There are some types of damage that ignore armor resistance either way, notably bleeds and oblivion damage. Both of these cannot be mitigated, so skills that indicate that they let enemies "bleed" or deal oblivion damage will always inflict their true damage value. This is mostly irrelevant for PvE, but in PvP, this is often an effective strategy against targets with high resistances.

    and here-
    Masel wrote: »

    There you go:

    CKPQjom.jpg

    This shows how much mitigation you have to achieve in order to reach the break-even point between a dagger and a mace.

    This depends largely on the critical chance and critical damage you have. If your critical chance is low, a dagger is giving you more additional damage than in a scenario where you already have more critical chance.

    Example: If you are a stamina sorcerer that has 50% critical chance before the 5% from the dagger is added, you'd be better off using a amce if your enemy with 18200 resistance has less than 7065 of debuffs on him. So in any case where that is not achieved, a mace will give you more damage than a dagger. If you have 64% critical chance prior to a dagger (if you are khajiit, use advancing yokeda or something similar), then you need 7719 of debuffs to benefit more from a dagger than a mace.

    What I'm saying is that since the removal of Unique Penetration Debuffs, the border between thos weapons has been reduced significantly, since you can not obtain that amount of penetration as easily. On bosses yes, but in many trials where you are alone and Tanks will not debuff enemies enough (2nd Boss Upstairs vHoF, 4th Boss vHoF, vCR if you go in the shadow realm, vAS for protectors and minibosses etc), then you can also use a mace. Nightblades have a higher critical base chance due to their assassination passive, but also have higher critical damage.

    the above spoiler is about a single mace, 10%, you have 2, so the amount penetrated is 20%, the same as a 2 hander maul, this is what he had to say about a 2h maul-
    @Masel A maul will be better than a greatsword in most situations. All you'd have to change is the value from 10% to 20% and the sword bonus from 2.5% to 5%. I ran a few tests now and the value is very high, often above 10k penetration debuffs (which is very very unralistic to have).

    To the second point: Because many people either don't test things or simply have no idea what they are talking about. Statements like the ones that discredited yours are simply wrong. Using alkosh as a flat 3k is simply unrealistic, you wont have a crusher enchant on everything you hit, not even talking about major and minor fracture. There are trials like vAA, alright, there it might be realistic, but in the newer trials it is simply not feasible to use that kind of math at all.



    also, don't look at the pen that combat metrix states there, it uses your physical resist to the amount the 20% penetrated. this is a bug with the way the game handles the request for the number, see here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5443982#Comment_5443982

    Maybe my statement is overblown a little bit, but still in PVE raids with runnign the Lover (what all stamms do atm, since they nerfed NMG and SF), maces are not worth slotting...else everybody would run them..

    the fact that we get already 18k pen with all debuffs inkl. mundus +CP Pen already says enough, then 10% cirt is just flat out stronger then some % based Penetration.

    Yes IF I run solo I wont hit the Cap, but even then with 11k I wont farm / craft a second pair of DW weapons (maces) just to get to pen cap, I'd rather slot TFS or Spriggans, which would end up (with lover on about 15-16k penetration)
    Major Fracture + CP + Lover + TFS = 5280+4300+4800+ 2000 (CP) = 16.380 Pen...(if you have acces to Major Fracture ofc)
    (rounded some numbers, like Lover and CP since they depend on gear (divine) and CP allocation)

    In PVP maces might be strong, idk, PVP is not why I play this game, but there the Armor Cap is way higher than in PVE where bosses and Addds dont exceed 18,2k resistance.


    I think the weapons are generally in an identity crisis and ZOS doesn't know what the weapons should be designed for at the moment. Sword and dagger are balanced weapon's, offering offense and defense but there is a huge gap from PvE and PvP perspective. Mace is full offense via penetration but Axe too. In my opinion axe should stay full offensive and change it like @Haashhtaag suggested but PvE and PvP have to be balanced separately or changing bleeds to more damage but full mitigateable so mace is full damage against high mitigation and bleeds full damage against low mitigation.
    PC EU - DC only
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

    ... we've had a set that buffs bleeds since Horns of the Reach. Does anyone actually use Blooddrinker?
  • Karmanorway
    Karmanorway
    ✭✭✭✭
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    Bleeds are getting nerfed with next patch.
    DC Breton : Sapphirá - Magicka Sorcerer 810+ cp (Original main) - Parked cuz of nerfmire
    DC Khajiit : A Widows Sorrow - Stamina Nightblade 810+ cp
    DC Dunmer : Indoril Nerevar - Stamina Sorcerer 810+ cp
    DC Imperial : Corvus Septim - Stamina Templar 810+ cp
    DC Breton : Malvolda Iceheart -Vampire Magicka Warden 810+ cp
    DC Redguard : Nadalyn - Stamina Warden 810+ cp
    DC Dunmer : Drillina Firedrake - Vampire Magicka Dragonknight - 810+ cp
    DC Breton : Mother Ysyna - Magicka Templar 810+ cp


    "This is real Power, cutting away the Things that makes you weak, one at a time" - Reileen Kawahara

  • JPcrazysquirrel3
    JPcrazysquirrel3
    ✭✭✭✭
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

    ... we've had a set that buffs bleeds since Horns of the Reach. Does anyone actually use Blooddrinker?

    I do.

    Blooddrinker, Savage Werewolf and Balorgh's on a stamblade.

    He's squishy and has poopy recovery, but he can gank like there's no tomorrow.
    Edited by JPcrazysquirrel3 on January 29, 2019 12:36AM
    "Wood Elves aren't made of wood, Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
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    Bio:
    Main on PS4
    --- JPcrazysquirrel3

    PC (just for PTS since DB)
    --- thekiltedpir8

    Playing since console release in 2015, 15 characters, mainly play PvE tank, PvP stamDK, magplar, and stamblade, but I also have a handful of DPS toons, a healer, a PvP utility/negate tank and others to have variety. All AD, with one, now PvE, DC toon.

    I was on the forums before, but something happened with my account info and I had to create a new account.
  • WreckfulAbandon
    WreckfulAbandon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    and yeah they are adding set up buffing bleeds ^^ GG

    ... we've had a set that buffs bleeds since Horns of the Reach. Does anyone actually use Blooddrinker?

    I do.

    Blooddrinker, Savage Werewolf and Balorgh's on a stamblade.

    He's squishy and has poopy recovery, but he can gank like there's no tomorrow.

    Sounds like a **** build. I'll take that matchup any day of the week against any of my 12 PvP toons.

    You can stack every bleed in the game on a competent stamden and they will outheal the pressure unless you bring a strong defile to the table. So many things in this game that are overperforming and yet people keep bringing up bleeds.
    All my comments are regarding PvP
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    We are still closely monitoring the bleed from these passives, and investigating ways to better distinguish the play patterns that Axes and Maces provide

    From the patch notes, I don't believe they are quite done with bleeds yet.

    It would be nice if maces helped bleeds somehow, like daggers let it crit more and swords increase the damage, axes are fine though, they just add another blood and don't add anything to your base stats
    We are still closely monitoring the bleed from these passives, and investigating ways to better distinguish the play patterns that Axes and Maces provide

    From the patch notes, I don't believe they are quite done with bleeds yet.

    It would be nice if maces helped bleeds somehow, like daggers let it crit more and swords increase the damage, axes are fine though, they just add another blood and don't add anything to your base stats

    the uselessness of maces is a whole other stroy...
    in PVP they might have a really small field of use, but PVE wise they're useless
    their effect is calculated after penetration like major breach / fracture ect...making the % value at the end do like 100 Pen or so....just bad design.

    Giving maces bonusdmg against blocking targets would be even more usefull than their actual % Pen bonus

    Your whole statement is overblown.

    maces percentage based pen is calculated after debuffs, like alkosh and fracture but before self pen buffs, like lover or sharpened or the cp node. like this-
    Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000)))

    so the best you can get in debuffs is 12,351 out of 18200, that is will gold alkosh and and infused TP crusher and both fractures, leaving 5,849 armor. A single mace will still give you 585 pen after that, dual maces will give you 1170, in the absolute worst case for them, most of the time you will have more armor left, mostly becuase main tank rarely have TP on. Still a more then 1/2% DPS increase, in the absolute worst case. Lover with 7 gold divines is 4,196, that would still leave 1067 armor. usually you would have to use cp to cover this, but using maces you can put those points elsewhere. in aoe situations, where major fracture is not on most targets, maces are the best to use.

    full surce here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

    relevent part here-
    4. Armor Penetration and Mitigation

    This is probably the most complex part of damage calculation, simply because the formula is a bit unintuitive. In ESO, every enemy (may it be a NPC or a player) has a resistance value. You can circumvent that resistance by using items and passives that let you "pierce" through the armor and deal higher damage to the target. So in general, you want to circumvent all armor the enemy has to deal "true" damage. This can either be achieved through own penetration, meaning all sets, buffs etc that increase your own armor penetration rating, or through debuffing the enemy, and thus reducing resistances. There are % amps and flat stats for penetration, and I will go through it in detail

    The formula looks like this:

    Armor Mitigation =1-((((Target Resistance - Target Debuffs)*(1 - % Penetration ) - Penetration)/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000))))

    So we start with 1. We start with one because the "true" damage let's us do the full damage. If we manage to achieve the full penetration, we simply do not deduct anything from 1, and therefore do the full unmitigated damage.

    Then we have the target's resistance, which is 18200 in PvE for all veteran content mobs and target dummies. In PvP, it depends on how much spell or physical resitance your target has. Then we deduct all the debuffs the target has on it. There are multiple debuffs that apply to this category, such as major and minor fracture or breach (5280 and 1320, respectively), the 5- piece of roar of alkosh (3010) and the crusher weapon enchantment (which is amplifiable with torug's pact and infused and yields 1622, 2108 and 2741, respectively).

    Afterwards we deduct % penetration amps, such as the Maul + Mace bonuses that ignore up to 20% of the target's resistance. The key takeaway here is that these %- amps are applied after debuffs, but not after your own penetration. This means that major and minor fracture reduce the effectiveness of mauls and maces, but sets like spriggan, twice-fanged serpent, penetration cps etc do NOT. So be aware which debuffs you have available, because if there are only few debuffs, you might even be better off with a mace over a dagger. The Break-even point between amces and daggers lies somewhere around 5000 & 6000 of penetration debuffs (which is often achieved in trials, but less in four man and solo content). I can provide statistics on this upon request.

    After that, your own penetration value is deducted, so here's where most of the sets and the lover mundus belong. You might notice how penetration is mostly shown as a flat value, such as 5280 and 1320 for the major and minor debuffs. This needs to be converted into a % value so we can multiply it with the rest. That's what the denominator of the above formula is for:

    The effectiveness of penetration depends on the level of the target. In PvE, enemies are considered as level 50 because they don't have CPs, so the denominator in these cases is 50000, while in PvP it is mostly 66000.

    NOTE: There are some types of damage that ignore armor resistance either way, notably bleeds and oblivion damage. Both of these cannot be mitigated, so skills that indicate that they let enemies "bleed" or deal oblivion damage will always inflict their true damage value. This is mostly irrelevant for PvE, but in PvP, this is often an effective strategy against targets with high resistances.

    and here-
    Masel wrote: »

    There you go:

    CKPQjom.jpg

    This shows how much mitigation you have to achieve in order to reach the break-even point between a dagger and a mace.

    This depends largely on the critical chance and critical damage you have. If your critical chance is low, a dagger is giving you more additional damage than in a scenario where you already have more critical chance.

    Example: If you are a stamina sorcerer that has 50% critical chance before the 5% from the dagger is added, you'd be better off using a amce if your enemy with 18200 resistance has less than 7065 of debuffs on him. So in any case where that is not achieved, a mace will give you more damage than a dagger. If you have 64% critical chance prior to a dagger (if you are khajiit, use advancing yokeda or something similar), then you need 7719 of debuffs to benefit more from a dagger than a mace.

    What I'm saying is that since the removal of Unique Penetration Debuffs, the border between thos weapons has been reduced significantly, since you can not obtain that amount of penetration as easily. On bosses yes, but in many trials where you are alone and Tanks will not debuff enemies enough (2nd Boss Upstairs vHoF, 4th Boss vHoF, vCR if you go in the shadow realm, vAS for protectors and minibosses etc), then you can also use a mace. Nightblades have a higher critical base chance due to their assassination passive, but also have higher critical damage.

    the above spoiler is about a single mace, 10%, you have 2, so the amount penetrated is 20%, the same as a 2 hander maul, this is what he had to say about a 2h maul-
    @Masel A maul will be better than a greatsword in most situations. All you'd have to change is the value from 10% to 20% and the sword bonus from 2.5% to 5%. I ran a few tests now and the value is very high, often above 10k penetration debuffs (which is very very unralistic to have).

    To the second point: Because many people either don't test things or simply have no idea what they are talking about. Statements like the ones that discredited yours are simply wrong. Using alkosh as a flat 3k is simply unrealistic, you wont have a crusher enchant on everything you hit, not even talking about major and minor fracture. There are trials like vAA, alright, there it might be realistic, but in the newer trials it is simply not feasible to use that kind of math at all.



    also, don't look at the pen that combat metrix states there, it uses your physical resist to the amount the 20% penetrated. this is a bug with the way the game handles the request for the number, see here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5443982#Comment_5443982

    Maybe my statement is overblown a little bit, but still in PVE raids with runnign the Lover (what all stamms do atm, since they nerfed NMG and SF), maces are not worth slotting...else everybody would run them..

    the fact that we get already 18k pen with all debuffs inkl. mundus +CP Pen already says enough, then 10% cirt is just flat out stronger then some % based Penetration.

    Yes IF I run solo I wont hit the Cap, but even then with 11k I wont farm / craft a second pair of DW weapons (maces) just to get to pen cap, I'd rather slot TFS or Spriggans, which would end up (with lover on about 15-16k penetration)
    Major Fracture + CP + Lover + TFS = 5280+4300+4800+ 2000 (CP) = 16.380 Pen...(if you have acces to Major Fracture ofc)
    (rounded some numbers, like Lover and CP since they depend on gear (divine) and CP allocation)

    In PVP maces might be strong, idk, PVP is not why I play this game, but there the Armor Cap is way higher than in PVE where bosses and Addds dont exceed 18,2k resistance.

    the whole point of my post is that mace are not as bad as you say and you can not count on having and torug pact infused crusher on everything, nor alkosh on everything, you are being silly if you do. i am not sure what you mean by "run solo", if you mean overland stuff, then you only need 9100 pen, if you mean soloing group dungeons stuff, good for you.


    the actual break even point for a single mace, 10% pen, is around 6-8k debuffs, see this chart from the quote from Masel-

    CKPQjom.jpg

    i also want to point out nowhere in my posts do i say a mace is always better then a dagger, . maces and mauls are a good option for most people, outside the 3-7% of end game players that can keep those 4 debuffs up most of the time. even @Masel, who agrees with this-

    @Masel To the second point: Because many people either don't test things or simply have no idea what they are talking about. Statements like the ones that discredited yours are simply wrong. Using alkosh as a flat 3k is simply unrealistic, you wont have a crusher enchant on everything you hit, not even talking about major and minor fracture. There are trials like vAA, alright, there it might be realistic, but in the newer trials it is simply not feasible to use that kind of math at all.
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on January 29, 2019 1:33AM
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
    ✭✭✭✭
    Omg they nerfed all bleeds by 14% ~10k resists. The heck guys. LA only has 10k unless you try to be... Tanky. and medium has only 20k
    Edited by Wolf_Watching on January 29, 2019 2:41AM
    If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
  • barshemm
    barshemm
    ✭✭✭
    I think the people complaining about bleeds in CP pvp the most are the ones who built to about being burst. High ironclad cp allocation and lower thick skinned. I used to run with a balance of the 2 and got burst a lot. I switched to 72 iron clad and that stopped but bleeds are way harder to handle now. I choose to take the risk, line of sight and heal through them rather than deal with a stun allowing me to get burst by one person.

    If you're built similar to me to avoid burst, bleeds should hurt more. Bleeds don't one shot or combo you, adapt and figure out how to heal through or purge.

    If you are paying no-cp, sorry but the truth is until they overhaul cp, the game isn't balanced for you. Not just bleeds, but all the proc sets too.
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO jeah im talking about those 3-7% ^^

    I agree that maces can be good, but thats mostly outside of organized groups in PVE
    And as you said for overland you only need 9k pen and youre fine xD

    I believe maces are underused by ppl who either dont haven them or dont understand their potential
    I see them used especially in PvP, but then you can face the problem of them beeging super strong against a heavy build, but way weaker against lightarmors, due to their percentage nature.

    PC EU
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    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Master Angler / PVP Noob^^

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  • Thanatos_inside
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    Bleeds are getting nerfed with next patch.

    Not enought couse there is master axe. Mechanics is broken.
  • Azurya
    Azurya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.
    Fear not, for I am watchful. You have been chosen.
    Azura, the Daedric Prince of Moonshadow, Mother of the Rose, and Queen of the Night Sky


    Hail to Sithis, blood's drop on blade's edge.
    Before you, nothing. Behind you, the Void.
    Catalyst, agitator, many-fanged maw.
    Whisper your need to the Scales.
    — Inscription found on an Argonian blade
  • boaz733
    boaz733
    ✭✭✭
    Azurya wrote: »
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.
    no its not.
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Azurya wrote: »
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.

    prob the most wrong thing I've read in a long time tbh (no offense tho)

    Bleeds ignore resistances, which in a Raid should already be close to 0...therefore other DOTS benefit way more to be used in a Raind then bleeds do
    Bleeds are strong on a Dummy, where resistances arent close to 0, or when doin content for which penetration is not high enough.

    YOu can definetly run a Raid on stamina without slotting rending slashes and still do great, maybe its a bit less dmg of, since youre loosing a dot, but other then that youre fine
    Edited by SaintSubwayy on January 29, 2019 10:02AM
    PC EU
    vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vMSA

    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Master Angler / PVP Noob^^

    Exceed Gaming
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
    ✭✭✭✭
    Azurya wrote: »
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.

    prob the most wrong thing I've read in a long time tbh (no offense tho)

    Bleeds ignore resistances, which in a Raid should already be close to 0...therefore other DOTS benefit way more to be used in a Raind then bleeds do
    Bleeds are strong on a Dummy, where resistances arent close to 0, or when doin content for which penetration is not high enough.

    YOu can definetly run a Raid on stamina without slotting rending slashes and still do great, maybe its a bit less dmg of, since youre loosing a dot, but other then that youre fine

    Lol no YOU ARE WRONG! It I was hitting close to zero then the 10 other mag builds would be hitting -4k plus pen... So yea, you are wrong that's not how trials works.
    If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
  • Flynch
    Flynch
    ✭✭✭✭
    What if each piece of non-heavy armour meant a 10% reduction in the bleed duration.
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Azurya wrote: »
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.

    prob the most wrong thing I've read in a long time tbh (no offense tho)

    Bleeds ignore resistances, which in a Raid should already be close to 0...therefore other DOTS benefit way more to be used in a Raind then bleeds do
    Bleeds are strong on a Dummy, where resistances arent close to 0, or when doin content for which penetration is not high enough.

    YOu can definetly run a Raid on stamina without slotting rending slashes and still do great, maybe its a bit less dmg of, since youre loosing a dot, but other then that youre fine

    Lol no YOU ARE WRONG! It I was hitting close to zero then the 10 other mag builds would be hitting -4k plus pen... So yea, you are wrong that's not how trials works.

    sry I dont get what you try to say with this sentense.

    I try to reexplain my point of view again, maybe you missunderstood it.

    If the boss has 18,2k resistance (normal in every Trial) and you use 2 Dot, lets say Poison Injection and Rending slashes.
    Poison Injection will deal 2k DPS and rending will deal 4k DPS

    Now you have the same Boss 18,2k Resistance, but also apply 18k Penetration to it.
    Now your Poison Injection will also deal 4k, while Rending Slashes will stay at 4k.
    Since bleeds dont benefit from Penetration at all, making them "worse" compared to other DOTS in a Raid.

    Yes if your raidgroup does not manage to Stack up Penetration debuffs on the boss (including sets, like alkosh, Infused TP crusher, POTL, your own CPs etc.), to bring its resistances down, then Bleeds are Stronger.
    The less penetration the group can bring to the fight, the stronger bleeds get compared to other DOTS.
    Thats also why axes perform way better on dummys than in a Raid.

    SO IF I'd move my beasttrap from Back to Frontbar (replacing Rending Slashes), and replace the now Empty slot on my Backbar with lets lets Arrow spray, my DPS will probably dropp slightly.
    But not because I loose the Bleed, but because the DOT of Arrow Spray is already weaker to begin with.
    Edited by SaintSubwayy on January 29, 2019 10:30AM
    PC EU
    vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vMSA

    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Master Angler / PVP Noob^^

    Exceed Gaming
  • MajBludd
    MajBludd
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I like turtles
  • Azurya
    Azurya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Azurya wrote: »
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.

    prob the most wrong thing I've read in a long time tbh (no offense tho)

    Bleeds ignore resistances, which in a Raid should already be close to 0...therefore other DOTS benefit way more to be used in a Raind then bleeds do
    Bleeds are strong on a Dummy, where resistances arent close to 0, or when doin content for which penetration is not high enough.

    YOu can definetly run a Raid on stamina without slotting rending slashes and still do great, maybe its a bit less dmg of, since youre loosing a dot, but other then that youre fine

    ah, yes get your point, as Stambuild I can always try to interrupt or put the boss off-balance or pray or shed vigor, nice, but that was not what I am thinking about, and THAT is exactly the reason why seldom see any stamina-build in a raid video!!
    Edited by Azurya on January 29, 2019 11:19AM
    Fear not, for I am watchful. You have been chosen.
    Azura, the Daedric Prince of Moonshadow, Mother of the Rose, and Queen of the Night Sky


    Hail to Sithis, blood's drop on blade's edge.
    Before you, nothing. Behind you, the Void.
    Catalyst, agitator, many-fanged maw.
    Whisper your need to the Scales.
    — Inscription found on an Argonian blade
  • DisgracefulMind
    DisgracefulMind
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Azurya wrote: »
    Azurya wrote: »
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.

    prob the most wrong thing I've read in a long time tbh (no offense tho)

    Bleeds ignore resistances, which in a Raid should already be close to 0...therefore other DOTS benefit way more to be used in a Raind then bleeds do
    Bleeds are strong on a Dummy, where resistances arent close to 0, or when doin content for which penetration is not high enough.

    YOu can definetly run a Raid on stamina without slotting rending slashes and still do great, maybe its a bit less dmg of, since youre loosing a dot, but other then that youre fine

    ah, yes get your point, as Stambuild I can always try to interrupt or put the boss off-balance or pray or shed vigor, nice, but that was not what I am thinking about, and THAT is exactly the reason why seldom see any stamina-build in a raid video!!

    What are you even talking about? Go look at current vHoF scores, they're all stacking 8 stambuilds for the most part lol. Not just that, stamina dps has been in raids for a long time now, and even being some of the strongest dps. Now there are places, such as Cloudrest and Asylum where magicka builds are the better choice, but that's because of badly made mechanics over the strength of stam vs. magicka.

    As it stands now, bleeds are way too strong, and even with the "nerf" they've been given a set that brings them right back up.
    Bee/Karstyll
    PC/NA Server
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  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Azurya wrote: »
    Azurya wrote: »
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.

    prob the most wrong thing I've read in a long time tbh (no offense tho)

    Bleeds ignore resistances, which in a Raid should already be close to 0...therefore other DOTS benefit way more to be used in a Raind then bleeds do
    Bleeds are strong on a Dummy, where resistances arent close to 0, or when doin content for which penetration is not high enough.

    YOu can definetly run a Raid on stamina without slotting rending slashes and still do great, maybe its a bit less dmg of, since youre loosing a dot, but other then that youre fine

    ah, yes get your point, as Stambuild I can always try to interrupt or put the boss off-balance or pray or shed vigor, nice, but that was not what I am thinking about, and THAT is exactly the reason why seldom see any stamina-build in a raid video!!

    What are you even talking about? Go look at current vHoF scores, they're all stacking 8 stambuilds for the most part lol. Not just that, stamina dps has been in raids for a long time now, and even being some of the strongest dps. Now there are places, such as Cloudrest and Asylum where magicka builds are the better choice, but that's because of badly made mechanics over the strength of stam vs. magicka.

    As it stands now, bleeds are way too strong, and even with the "nerf" they've been given a set that brings them right back up.

    Bleeds are overperforming as a whole, adding a new set buffing bleeds certainly doesnt help, but it also is not the reason why the Bleeds already overperform now on live.

    Do you think that Deadly strike will be widely used in PVP?

    Im planning on running it on my stamDK for PVE, since it has a great synergy with all the DOTs ofc....but its already close in terms of dps, compared with AY, any nerfs would probably make the set useless for PVE again.
    PC EU
    vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vMSA

    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Master Angler / PVP Noob^^

    Exceed Gaming
  • DisgracefulMind
    DisgracefulMind
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Azurya wrote: »
    Azurya wrote: »
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.

    prob the most wrong thing I've read in a long time tbh (no offense tho)

    Bleeds ignore resistances, which in a Raid should already be close to 0...therefore other DOTS benefit way more to be used in a Raind then bleeds do
    Bleeds are strong on a Dummy, where resistances arent close to 0, or when doin content for which penetration is not high enough.

    YOu can definetly run a Raid on stamina without slotting rending slashes and still do great, maybe its a bit less dmg of, since youre loosing a dot, but other then that youre fine

    ah, yes get your point, as Stambuild I can always try to interrupt or put the boss off-balance or pray or shed vigor, nice, but that was not what I am thinking about, and THAT is exactly the reason why seldom see any stamina-build in a raid video!!

    What are you even talking about? Go look at current vHoF scores, they're all stacking 8 stambuilds for the most part lol. Not just that, stamina dps has been in raids for a long time now, and even being some of the strongest dps. Now there are places, such as Cloudrest and Asylum where magicka builds are the better choice, but that's because of badly made mechanics over the strength of stam vs. magicka.

    As it stands now, bleeds are way too strong, and even with the "nerf" they've been given a set that brings them right back up.

    Bleeds are overperforming as a whole, adding a new set buffing bleeds certainly doesnt help, but it also is not the reason why the Bleeds already overperform now on live.

    Do you think that Deadly strike will be widely used in PVP?

    Im planning on running it on my stamDK for PVE, since it has a great synergy with all the DOTs ofc....but its already close in terms of dps, compared with AY, any nerfs would probably make the set useless for PVE again.

    I was actually discussing this with my friend, I do believe there will be plenty of builds in PvP using the new deadly strike. I don't think that buffing a useless set is a bad thing, it's not the set being buffed that's the issue. It's that bleeds still stay overperforming.

    And yeah, we were talking about if it'll be useful for stamDK in PvE, but the current issues still stand --> only one stamina class (only one class, actually) is wanted for dps in PvE )':
    Bee/Karstyll
    PC/NA Server
    Fairweather Friends
    Bee~Altmer Templar~AR50 Former Empress of Trueflame
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    Fairly Beeweather~Bosmer Nightblade~AR19
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Azurya wrote: »
    Azurya wrote: »
    boaz733 wrote: »
    u give us spell and physical penetration that's fine,
    what's the point of having armor when bleeds/damage health of all kinds (sets/glyph/poisons) is going straight through?
    reduce it something like ignore 30% of resistances or something.

    bleed is essential playing a stambuild, it is one of the two sources of doing average dmg to compete with magicka-based builds. Without bleed it is not vailable to play stamina in a raid, because the burstcombos take way to much time to do an average part of dmg.

    prob the most wrong thing I've read in a long time tbh (no offense tho)

    Bleeds ignore resistances, which in a Raid should already be close to 0...therefore other DOTS benefit way more to be used in a Raind then bleeds do
    Bleeds are strong on a Dummy, where resistances arent close to 0, or when doin content for which penetration is not high enough.

    YOu can definetly run a Raid on stamina without slotting rending slashes and still do great, maybe its a bit less dmg of, since youre loosing a dot, but other then that youre fine

    ah, yes get your point, as Stambuild I can always try to interrupt or put the boss off-balance or pray or shed vigor, nice, but that was not what I am thinking about, and THAT is exactly the reason why seldom see any stamina-build in a raid video!!

    What are you even talking about? Go look at current vHoF scores, they're all stacking 8 stambuilds for the most part lol. Not just that, stamina dps has been in raids for a long time now, and even being some of the strongest dps. Now there are places, such as Cloudrest and Asylum where magicka builds are the better choice, but that's because of badly made mechanics over the strength of stam vs. magicka.

    As it stands now, bleeds are way too strong, and even with the "nerf" they've been given a set that brings them right back up.

    Bleeds are overperforming as a whole, adding a new set buffing bleeds certainly doesnt help, but it also is not the reason why the Bleeds already overperform now on live.

    Do you think that Deadly strike will be widely used in PVP?

    Im planning on running it on my stamDK for PVE, since it has a great synergy with all the DOTs ofc....but its already close in terms of dps, compared with AY, any nerfs would probably make the set useless for PVE again.

    I was actually discussing this with my friend, I do believe there will be plenty of builds in PvP using the new deadly strike. I don't think that buffing a useless set is a bad thing, it's not the set being buffed that's the issue. It's that bleeds still stay overperforming.

    And yeah, we were talking about if it'll be useful for stamDK in PvE, but the current issues still stand --> only one stamina class (only one class, actually) is wanted for dps in PvE )':

    JEah the issue with bleeds overperforming will hopefully be adressed a bit more with the next 2 PTS updates.

    Well buffing an old useless set is great, finally they start adressing this issue, even tho its probably only good for 1 class / playstyle (maybe also stamplar, but IDk that yet).
    It finally starts to throw appart the same setup beeing BIS on all classes stam / magicka wise.
    PC EU
    vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vMSA

    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Master Angler / PVP Noob^^

    Exceed Gaming
  • Crixus8000
    Crixus8000
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bleeds are a dumb design, being basically free while ignoring resistances and block. But the main issue imo is master weapons, they make rending deal insane damage.

    Out of the 2 bleeds in my recap guess who is using master weapons... http://prntscr.com/mekt5f

    Edited by Crixus8000 on January 31, 2019 5:52AM
  • Kadoin
    Kadoin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bleeds are getting nerfed? Damn, I was finally going to ride the proc set train with bleeds on my hybrid. The forums ruin everything!

  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Crixus8000 wrote: »
    Bleeds are a dumb design, being basically free while ignoring resistances and block. But the main issue imo is master weapons, they make rending deal insane damage.

    Out of the 2 bleeds in my recap guess who is using master weapons... http://prntscr.com/mekt5f

    not arguing over the bleed dmg here...but you got engaged by 3 ppl, you probably would have died at some point anyways ;)

    but the overall 16k bleeddmg is just crazy...
    They should finally ban those PVE arena weapons from PVP, and add new ones, which can be gained only throu PVP, and only work in BG's and Cyro / IC...problem to 50% solved, unless they make them OP xD
    PC EU
    vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vMSA

    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Master Angler / PVP Noob^^

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