When is Vigor getting nerfed?

Jeezye · January 2019

Well I do see a point in OP's post, namely that vigor is one of the best self healing HoTs in the game and at the same time one of the best AoE healing HoTs. There's a reason every stamchar runs it as a must have (in PvP), including all my stambuilds.

I think a reasonable approach would be to further seperate the morphs, one focusing more on self heal, one focusing more on group heal.

However vigor was implemented because stamina didn't have any form of mitigation like shields other than rolldodging, and without vigor 80% of all stamina builds are screwed again.

Careful with adjustments.

Gnozo · January 2019

Jeezye wrote: »

Well I do see a point in OP's post, namely that vigor is one of the best self healing HoTs in the game and at the same time one of the best AoE healing HoTs. There's a reason every stamchar runs it as a must have (in PvP), including all my stambuilds.

I think a reasonable approach would be to further seperate the morphs, one focusing more on self heal, one focusing more on group heal.

However vigor was implemented because stamina didn't have any form of mitigation like shields other than rolldodging, and without vigor 80% of all stamina builds are screwed again.

Careful with adjustments.

But, isnt it like this already?

Resolving vigor increases the self heal.
Echoing vigor has a bigger aoe.

And i wouldnt call it the best aoe heal ingame. It does like 800 hps wich can also be done by rapid regen and combined with healing springs its way stronger then vigor.

As a stamina player you dont have much skills to help your teammates out when they need some healing and reducing the healing on vigor would just kill the healing stamplayers can do to their teammates even more.

Hamrb · January 2019

LonePirate wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

But if you just removed it, for example, I think you would see a lot of stamina builds immediately suffer, many exclusively rely on this as a self heal even if it is a HOT with AOE.

That is exactly what needs to happen because there is no reason for Stamina to output the best damage and the best heals in PVP situations. Vigor is one of the main sources of the massive Stamina-Magicka imbalance in PVP and reducing its strength by bringing it in line with Healing Springs is long overdue.

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Wait. Did you just say Vigor is better than BoL?

Yes, I did. Form two ball groups of 12 players each. Let one player in group A cast BoL once and compare the total healing to the first tick of Vigor cast by a player in group B. Now add a second player to group A who casts BoL. Add a second player to group B who casts Vigor. Guess which group of 12 will reach full health faster. Hint - it's not group A.

For the whiny Stamina PVP players who are crying because Vigor is their go to heal, you cannot have the best PVP damage and the best heal. How in the world is that anywhere close to a balanced game? Either give up some of your damage or give up some of the healing from Vigor. At the very least a 50% reduction in the non-self healing of Vigor is warranted, if not more.

Why would the comparison be BoL? Wouldn’t it make more sense to compare it to healing springs? I understand you need to slot a resto for springs, but as a magicka damage dealer, you also get shield/shield stacking and you can just fill the resto bar with class abilities, so you don’t lose much damage overall

Derra · January 2019

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I'd trade Vigor all day long for a stamina based shield which can compete with Hardened Ward, just saying. Vigor ticks for like 1.3k on my build, that's far away from being OP.

Where is the basis for comparison though? HW is a class skill vigor is a universially accessible skill.

Hamrb · January 2019

Derra wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I'd trade Vigor all day long for a stamina based shield which can compete with Hardened Ward, just saying. Vigor ticks for like 1.3k on my build, that's far away from being OP.

Where is the basis for comparison though? HW is a class skill vigor is a universially accessible skill.

Insert annulment or healing ward for Hardened ward

Jeezye · January 2019

Hamrb wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

But if you just removed it, for example, I think you would see a lot of stamina builds immediately suffer, many exclusively rely on this as a self heal even if it is a HOT with AOE.

That is exactly what needs to happen because there is no reason for Stamina to output the best damage and the best heals in PVP situations. Vigor is one of the main sources of the massive Stamina-Magicka imbalance in PVP and reducing its strength by bringing it in line with Healing Springs is long overdue.

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Wait. Did you just say Vigor is better than BoL?

Yes, I did. Form two ball groups of 12 players each. Let one player in group A cast BoL once and compare the total healing to the first tick of Vigor cast by a player in group B. Now add a second player to group A who casts BoL. Add a second player to group B who casts Vigor. Guess which group of 12 will reach full health faster. Hint - it's not group A.

For the whiny Stamina PVP players who are crying because Vigor is their go to heal, you cannot have the best PVP damage and the best heal. How in the world is that anywhere close to a balanced game? Either give up some of your damage or give up some of the healing from Vigor. At the very least a 50% reduction in the non-self healing of Vigor is warranted, if not more.

Why would the comparison be BoL? Wouldn’t it make more sense to compare it to healing springs? I understand you need to slot a resto for springs, but as a magicka damage dealer, you also get shield/shield stacking and you can just fill the resto bar with class abilities, so you don’t lose much damage overall

hmm I'm not sure about actual tickts but I can easily reach 15k TT for the ally heal on my stamden with major mending, that is translated to 3k/s or 1,5k/s in PvP. That's hell of a lot considering I didn't pick the AoE morph.

Anhedonie · January 2019

While I have mixed feelings about vigor, I think it's not the main culprit here. ZOS should take a look at healing values of all skills and maybe rethink the whole system.

technohic · January 2019

Anhedonie wrote: »

While I have mixed feelings about vigor, I think it's not the main culprit here. ZOS should take a look at healing values of all skills and maybe rethink the whole system.

Really; defile got reduced up time when it was really just how much the CP passive increased it. If you are able to keep an enemy defiled even still today; you can counter a lot of the healing going on. The big problem with relying on that however; is the actual healbots will cleanse it off them so this really hits Vigor users more than most.

Hamrb · January 2019

I mean, all Stam users really have is vigor and rally/forward momentum. Outside of that the only non class specific heals I can think of are absorb magicka, crushing weapons(psijic spammable( and the morph of rending slashes that heals.
Magicka have resto staves and annulment. Plus they can actually afford things like siege shield and purge

Sure, Stam benefit from a little more armor and more roll dodges, but they’re also required to get into melee range to deal the heaviest damage, which is obviously not as safe as range attacks in group battles, so there is trade off there

Getting rid of vigor would be like getting rid of annulment. I don’t think it makes sense imo.

The_Yellow_King · January 2019

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

Exaggerations get you nowhere. Honestly you just sound like a bad player. Vigor isn't op. Balling up and spamming any skill is gonna be OP get over it. Coordinated skill and set use will outperform anything else no matter what.

Not only that, but it completely ignores the fact that it is really the only PvE survivability skill in the game for stamina. Mag toons get amazing shields and self heals. I cant fathom even coming close to beating vMA without vigor or with a vigor nerf. DPS in end game trials would have absolutely no way of beating say, crystals in vcr, and if the healer goes down you would be guaranteed a wipe.

This is a poorly thought out 1 sided PvP post.

Kuramas9tails · January 2019

I think OP is complaining about Vigor without realizing the combination of rally mixed in with it and depending on race/class/gear (troll king), it can seem OP but there are actually many factors that play into it that doesn't mean Vigor alone is OP.

GeneralRoadkill · January 2019

To the people addressing the ‘imbalance’ between heals in the game; if you nerf everything until it all does the same exact thing but with varying animations - you’ll get a boring af game. Stamina has vigor + things that stack with it for strong heals while Magicka gets shields and in some cases, instant heals.

If we just go through and make everything the exact same to appease people who can’t play to their counterparts - then we might as well nerf armor passives as well since medium armor gives good bonuses to stamina users, but by the Nines, we can’t have those pesky nightblades having more armor than a mage wearing cloth.

BaylorCorvette · January 2019

lol what.

If ANYTHING about vigor is OP it is the fact that you can stack the HoT of Resolving and Echoing but still I wouldn't call it OP. On my StamSorc I do not run 2H so my only heal is from Vigor and Crit Surge. Aside from Warden, Vigor is the only Stam heal for a lot of classes where it isn't tied to a weapon line (rally or Draining Shot).

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

I think OP is complaining about Vigor without realizing the combination of rally mixed in with it and depending on race/class/gear (troll king), it can seem OP but there are actually many factors that play into it that doesn't mean Vigor alone is OP.

This.

Kartalin · January 2019

I don’t think Vigor on its own is an issue. I don’t know how many times it stacks though — if it’s much more than healing springs then it could be a problem. But most good small to medium groups that stack a few vigors also typically include a solid magicka healer or two also.

We’ve all seen stamina players seemingly do massive solo healing in a relatively short time, but this is generally a convergence of vigor + pot + a rally heal that’s been ticking a bit. Or lag

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Kartalin , Vigor does not stack. You can have only two vigors on you: the one you apply to yourself, and the one applied by someone else (those are two different effects). It does not go higher than that.

Kartalin · January 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Kartalin , Vigor does not stack. You can have only two vigors on you: the one you apply to yourself, and the one applied by someone else (those are two different effects). It does not go higher than that.

All good then, I generally play in magicka heavy groups so we don't usually have more than 2 anyway.

Jabassa · January 2019

Vigor is one of very few ways a stam build can heal. It's definitely not OP, and does not need to change. You need to kill things faster than people can hit the vigor button

Twohothardware · January 2019

They should just remove the group healing aspect of Vigor and do something new with the Echoing Vigor morph because it gets zero use at all.

Wuuffyy · January 2019

So dumb. God if vigor gets nerfed I’m hopping on my pc and I’ll never let this man enjoy open world again, lol. Ruin my fun, yours is gone.

Arkangeloski · January 2019

LonePirate wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Stamina heals are woefully terrible compared to magicka heals. Vigor is literally the only good stamina-based heal in the game for all possible stamina builds, and it takes a while to unlock for new characters too. If you were to nerf Vigor, then there's nothing left for stamina survivability, and then you can say farewell to any chance of your stamina build being recruited for a Trial.

I have no problems with the self-heal for Vigor. It is the massively OP group AOE heal component in PVP that needs to be nerfed or removed. Reading through this thread, it is obvious there are plenty of horrible Stamina PVP players who could not survive in PVP unless they have both the OP damage skills and heals which Stamina offers in Cyrodiil and BGs.Nerfing the group heal portion of Vigor is the first step to establishing Stamina and Magicka balance in PVP which has been stacked in Stamina's favor for far too long.

Amazing, now you’re calling everyone who disagrees with you bad instead of just admitting that your assessment is wrong. What server are you on? If you’re on PC/NA we can meet up for a 1v1 if you think I’m defending vigor because I’m terrible. It’s so painfully obvious that you got farmed in a tower and that’s why you’re mad. You probably had 2-3 times the number of pugs trying to kill a few good players and you couldn’t and now you’re mad. And instead of just admitting that you need to L2P you’re in here digging yourself into a hole. FYI the reason you couldn’t kill those players was not because of vigor, I guarantee it. And on top of that you’re now calling all stamina skills OP. So basically just nerf stamina until you can fianlly win, is that it?

My assessment is not wrong. The AOE group heal aspect of Vigor is broken. Observe a group of Stamina players and you'll see for yourself. And yes, Stamina skills, specifically Stamina weapon skills are OP. They do more damage than Magicka weapon skills and more damage than Magicka class skills. I'm not sure if you are intentionally being daft in this regard of it just comes naturally for you; but much like with the Vigor problem, I'd recommend opening your eyes and actually looking at this skills people use, the battles around you and your death recaps if you have any doubts.

Did 2h got a 20 percent damage nerf a while ago? And destro got a buff in the same patch? Please correct me if i'm wrong but I think there is some expired drugs at work here...

sly007 · January 2019

LonePirate wrote: »

Awesome! More whiny Stamina (PVE?) players who cannot read! I fully stand by the my statement that the group heal from its AOE effect - especially when more than one player is using it - is ridiculously OP. Would you feel better if the skill was converted to a self-heal only or do you need your allies to save you because you cannot survive using only your own heals? Vigor needs a nerf, plain and simple.

Lol, make vigor a self heal? You are being so biased. Vigor as a small radius, so you have to be very close to get the heals. Vigor is a hot, so it wont save you is you use it at very low health.

Making the only stamina aoe heal into a single heal would be abysmal, not only to stam but also to they magicka partner that also benefit from the heal. Stop being selfish. Vigor does not need another nerf.

itscompton · January 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Holy *** dude shut the *** up. Jesus. @LonePirate please post your amazing gameplay vids of Stam. Can’t wait to see. Please play 5+ medium pieces.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Mist form is potentially better than Evasion tbh.

Vigor is a odd ability to use (as someone that usually sticks to magica, specifically magica warden with my living trellis which I consider to be the best solo heal in the game) and stam builds outside of using s/b can have a hard time getting good survivability imo.

That said, a large part of the problem is the AOE nature of this ability. If stamina classes had a better heal on demand then it would remove the need for this to be as good as it is. It has a high healing amount in a very short amount of time and can easily be spammed because of that. Its one of the essential heals in a zerg rush.

But if you just removed it, for example, I think you would see a lot of stamina builds immediately suffer, many exclusively rely on this as a self heal even if it is a HOT with AOE.

You can’t spam vigor because there’s no burst heal portion. Spamming it does nothing. OP is nothing more than a salty player.

Not that I'm on the nerf vigor bandwagon but technically spamming it does have some utility as most times I'll get the second tick from the first vigor and the first tick of the new cast to stack in one GCD window. Not nearly as effective as a single cast from HtD but to say it does nothing at all is false.

NyassaV · January 2019

u wot mate?

I mean with how magicka is now I understand wanting to nerf vigor but I'd rather just fix the magicka problem or maybe just make magicka vigor

kojou · January 2019

Probably the same time Earth Gore is nerfed.

TrinityBreaker · January 2019

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

So dumb. God if vigor gets nerfed I’m hopping on my pc and I’ll never let this man enjoy open world again, lol. Ruin my fun, yours is gone.

Gonna buy a PC to help you out with that.

TrinityBreaker · January 2019

itscompton wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Holy *** dude shut the *** up. Jesus. @LonePirate please post your amazing gameplay vids of Stam. Can’t wait to see. Please play 5+ medium pieces.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Mist form is potentially better than Evasion tbh.

Vigor is a odd ability to use (as someone that usually sticks to magica, specifically magica warden with my living trellis which I consider to be the best solo heal in the game) and stam builds outside of using s/b can have a hard time getting good survivability imo.

That said, a large part of the problem is the AOE nature of this ability. If stamina classes had a better heal on demand then it would remove the need for this to be as good as it is. It has a high healing amount in a very short amount of time and can easily be spammed because of that. Its one of the essential heals in a zerg rush.

But if you just removed it, for example, I think you would see a lot of stamina builds immediately suffer, many exclusively rely on this as a self heal even if it is a HOT with AOE.

You can’t spam vigor because there’s no burst heal portion. Spamming it does nothing. OP is nothing more than a salty player.

Not that I'm on the nerf vigor bandwagon but technically spamming it does have some utility as most times I'll get the second tick from the first vigor and the first tick of the new cast to stack in one GCD window. Not nearly as effective as a single cast from HtD but to say it does nothing at all is false.

That is not a thing. You cast it once and get the heal, recasting it 1 second after the first vigor will NOT give you 2 separate vigor heal ticks.

bpmachete · January 2019

I play all the classes in Stamina and Magicka. Vigor is not the strongest heal in any way, I heal with my Magicka templar with both a heal over time in extended ritual and clense 5 efects and burst heal myself while blocking faster than with Vigor, and I get good vigor ticks but there is no comparison. Also for Magicka classes I use a skill to burst heal me and my friend one shot... You do not know what you are talking about. Like some said a group of good players can stack together and heal eachother but they could do it even better with all magicka templars for example. Play with a stamina class and use Vigor I want to see you say that it needs to be weaker.

React · January 2019

The healing vigor does, both on your self and allies, is completley fine. However; there should be a cap on how many can be on a player at once. You should be able to have your own vigor active as well as another player's vigor on you, but it should be capped there.

itscompton · January 2019

Gnozo wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Well I do see a point in OP's post, namely that vigor is one of the best self healing HoTs in the game and at the same time one of the best AoE healing HoTs. There's a reason every stamchar runs it as a must have (in PvP), including all my stambuilds.

I think a reasonable approach would be to further seperate the morphs, one focusing more on self heal, one focusing more on group heal.

However vigor was implemented because stamina didn't have any form of mitigation like shields other than rolldodging, and without vigor 80% of all stamina builds are screwed again.

Careful with adjustments.

But, isnt it like this already?

Resolving vigor increases the self heal.
Echoing vigor has a bigger aoe.

And i wouldnt call it the best aoe heal ingame. It does like 800 hps wich can also be done by rapid regen and combined with healing springs its way stronger then vigor.

As a stamina player you dont have much skills to help your teammates out when they need some healing and reducing the healing on vigor would just kill the healing stamplayers can do to their teammates even more.

Damn man if your vigor is only ticking for 800 hps you need to work on your build. My Stamblade runs 35K stam and about 4500 WD fully buffed and in PvP I tick on average 1.6K non crit and 2.8 crit with a 50% crit rate. But even at those numbers it's not out healing anyone with decent damage. I can make it work on my NB because of cloak but my Stam Warden and Stam DK certainly can't survive off just vigor in a fight with a good player.

itscompton · January 2019

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Holy *** dude shut the *** up. Jesus. @LonePirate please post your amazing gameplay vids of Stam. Can’t wait to see. Please play 5+ medium pieces.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Mist form is potentially better than Evasion tbh.

Vigor is a odd ability to use (as someone that usually sticks to magica, specifically magica warden with my living trellis which I consider to be the best solo heal in the game) and stam builds outside of using s/b can have a hard time getting good survivability imo.

That said, a large part of the problem is the AOE nature of this ability. If stamina classes had a better heal on demand then it would remove the need for this to be as good as it is. It has a high healing amount in a very short amount of time and can easily be spammed because of that. Its one of the essential heals in a zerg rush.

But if you just removed it, for example, I think you would see a lot of stamina builds immediately suffer, many exclusively rely on this as a self heal even if it is a HOT with AOE.

You can’t spam vigor because there’s no burst heal portion. Spamming it does nothing. OP is nothing more than a salty player.

Not that I'm on the nerf vigor bandwagon but technically spamming it does have some utility as most times I'll get the second tick from the first vigor and the first tick of the new cast to stack in one GCD window. Not nearly as effective as a single cast from HtD but to say it does nothing at all is false.

That is not a thing. You cast it once and get the heal, recasting it 1 second after the first vigor will NOT give you 2 separate vigor heal ticks.

Yep sure does if you hit it just right.