When is Vigor getting nerfed?

Ocelot9x

I bet he was one of the 42 people we killed in this fight

https://youtu.be/cCEluslCIHM

olsborg

Vigor got nothing on dmg shields, stack those as much as you want, spam them as much as you want, you get the full benefit no matter what. You cant stack vigor for yourself. You cast it and it heals you over 5s, thers no point casting it again until that duration is over. There are other factors at play here.

Vapirko

LonePirate wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Stamina heals are woefully terrible compared to magicka heals. Vigor is literally the only good stamina-based heal in the game for all possible stamina builds, and it takes a while to unlock for new characters too. If you were to nerf Vigor, then there's nothing left for stamina survivability, and then you can say farewell to any chance of your stamina build being recruited for a Trial.

I have no problems with the self-heal for Vigor. It is the massively OP group AOE heal component in PVP that needs to be nerfed or removed. Reading through this thread, it is obvious there are plenty of horrible Stamina PVP players who could not survive in PVP unless they have both the OP damage skills and heals which Stamina offers in Cyrodiil and BGs.Nerfing the group heal portion of Vigor is the first step to establishing Stamina and Magicka balance in PVP which has been stacked in Stamina's favor for far too long.

Amazing, now you’re calling everyone who disagrees with you bad instead of just admitting that your assessment is wrong. What server are you on? If you’re on PC/NA we can meet up for a 1v1 if you think I’m defending vigor because I’m terrible. It’s so painfully obvious that you got farmed in a tower and that’s why you’re mad. You probably had 2-3 times the number of pugs trying to kill a few good players and you couldn’t and now you’re mad. And instead of just admitting that you need to L2P you’re in here digging yourself into a hole. FYI the reason you couldn’t kill those players was not because of vigor, I guarantee it. And on top of that you’re now calling all stamina skills OP. So basically just nerf stamina until you can fianlly win, is that it?

LiquidPony

Can everyone please stop replying to this thread so that OP's terrible idea gets buried where it belongs?

k thx bye.

LonePirate

Vapirko wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Stamina heals are woefully terrible compared to magicka heals. Vigor is literally the only good stamina-based heal in the game for all possible stamina builds, and it takes a while to unlock for new characters too. If you were to nerf Vigor, then there's nothing left for stamina survivability, and then you can say farewell to any chance of your stamina build being recruited for a Trial.

I have no problems with the self-heal for Vigor. It is the massively OP group AOE heal component in PVP that needs to be nerfed or removed. Reading through this thread, it is obvious there are plenty of horrible Stamina PVP players who could not survive in PVP unless they have both the OP damage skills and heals which Stamina offers in Cyrodiil and BGs.Nerfing the group heal portion of Vigor is the first step to establishing Stamina and Magicka balance in PVP which has been stacked in Stamina's favor for far too long.

Amazing, now you’re calling everyone who disagrees with you bad instead of just admitting that your assessment is wrong. What server are you on? If you’re on PC/NA we can meet up for a 1v1 if you think I’m defending vigor because I’m terrible. It’s so painfully obvious that you got farmed in a tower and that’s why you’re mad. You probably had 2-3 times the number of pugs trying to kill a few good players and you couldn’t and now you’re mad. And instead of just admitting that you need to L2P you’re in here digging yourself into a hole. FYI the reason you couldn’t kill those players was not because of vigor, I guarantee it. And on top of that you’re now calling all stamina skills OP. So basically just nerf stamina until you can fianlly win, is that it?

My assessment is not wrong. The AOE group heal aspect of Vigor is broken. Observe a group of Stamina players and you'll see for yourself. And yes, Stamina skills, specifically Stamina weapon skills are OP. They do more damage than Magicka weapon skills and more damage than Magicka class skills. I'm not sure if you are intentionally being daft in this regard of it just comes naturally for you; but much like with the Vigor problem, I'd recommend opening your eyes and actually looking at this skills people use, the battles around you and your death recaps if you have any doubts.

Morgul667

LonePirate wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Stamina heals are woefully terrible compared to magicka heals. Vigor is literally the only good stamina-based heal in the game for all possible stamina builds, and it takes a while to unlock for new characters too. If you were to nerf Vigor, then there's nothing left for stamina survivability, and then you can say farewell to any chance of your stamina build being recruited for a Trial.

I have no problems with the self-heal for Vigor. It is the massively OP group AOE heal component in PVP that needs to be nerfed or removed. Reading through this thread, it is obvious there are plenty of horrible Stamina PVP players who could not survive in PVP unless they have both the OP damage skills and heals which Stamina offers in Cyrodiil and BGs.Nerfing the group heal portion of Vigor is the first step to establishing Stamina and Magicka balance in PVP which has been stacked in Stamina's favor for far too long.

Amazing, now you’re calling everyone who disagrees with you bad instead of just admitting that your assessment is wrong. What server are you on? If you’re on PC/NA we can meet up for a 1v1 if you think I’m defending vigor because I’m terrible. It’s so painfully obvious that you got farmed in a tower and that’s why you’re mad. You probably had 2-3 times the number of pugs trying to kill a few good players and you couldn’t and now you’re mad. And instead of just admitting that you need to L2P you’re in here digging yourself into a hole. FYI the reason you couldn’t kill those players was not because of vigor, I guarantee it. And on top of that you’re now calling all stamina skills OP. So basically just nerf stamina until you can fianlly win, is that it?

My assessment is not wrong. The AOE group heal aspect of Vigor is broken. Observe a group of Stamina players and you'll see for yourself. And yes, Stamina skills, specifically Stamina weapon skills are OP. They do more damage than Magicka weapon skills and more damage than Magicka class skills. I'm not sure if you are intentionally being daft in this regard of it just comes naturally for you; but much like with the Vigor problem, I'd recommend opening your eyes and actually looking at this skills people use, the battles around you and your death recaps if you have any doubts.

Please let it go

usmcjdking

Witness OP.

Rally is the best heal in the game even though it practically sits on a 16 second cooldown.

Vapirko

LonePirate wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Stamina heals are woefully terrible compared to magicka heals. Vigor is literally the only good stamina-based heal in the game for all possible stamina builds, and it takes a while to unlock for new characters too. If you were to nerf Vigor, then there's nothing left for stamina survivability, and then you can say farewell to any chance of your stamina build being recruited for a Trial.

I have no problems with the self-heal for Vigor. It is the massively OP group AOE heal component in PVP that needs to be nerfed or removed. Reading through this thread, it is obvious there are plenty of horrible Stamina PVP players who could not survive in PVP unless they have both the OP damage skills and heals which Stamina offers in Cyrodiil and BGs.Nerfing the group heal portion of Vigor is the first step to establishing Stamina and Magicka balance in PVP which has been stacked in Stamina's favor for far too long.

Amazing, now you’re calling everyone who disagrees with you bad instead of just admitting that your assessment is wrong. What server are you on? If you’re on PC/NA we can meet up for a 1v1 if you think I’m defending vigor because I’m terrible. It’s so painfully obvious that you got farmed in a tower and that’s why you’re mad. You probably had 2-3 times the number of pugs trying to kill a few good players and you couldn’t and now you’re mad. And instead of just admitting that you need to L2P you’re in here digging yourself into a hole. FYI the reason you couldn’t kill those players was not because of vigor, I guarantee it. And on top of that you’re now calling all stamina skills OP. So basically just nerf stamina until you can fianlly win, is that it?

My assessment is not wrong. The AOE group heal aspect of Vigor is broken. Observe a group of Stamina players and you'll see for yourself. And yes, Stamina skills, specifically Stamina weapon skills are OP. They do more damage than Magicka weapon skills and more damage than Magicka class skills. I'm not sure if you are intentionally being daft in this regard of it just comes naturally for you; but much like with the Vigor problem, I'd recommend opening your eyes and actually looking at this skills people use, the battles around you and your death recaps if you have any doubts.

Lmao. Well mag sorc is in a pretty iffy spot right now overall yet my curse still has a tooltip of about 13.5k and my mages wrath comes in for a 14k execute, force pulse is around 9.5k and frags is 15k before the 20% proc, and I’ve got about 10k+ worth of pen without even trying. I can take on most players I encounter without the need for a heal at all outside of crit surge and pots and this is a class I play for fun sometimes. By comparison, depending on ravager proc (another set people like to whine about), my stamplar javalin tooltip is maybe 6-7k or so, jabs has a 3.5-4.5k tooltip, rending does 12k as a dot and PoL hit initially for 5k and I only get about 4k pen. So you look at those numbers and tell me how you see magicka attacks doing less damage. I’d love to see you present any actual evidence beyond just whining.

templesus

Snipe, Earthgore, Timestop and Cloak all exist but no let’s nerf vigor right? Yeah no cuz those aren’t the real issues with PvP, being able to stack two vigors is.

Dovahmiim

Vigor stacking is definitely the strongest healing tactic for coordinated groups, it's part of the reason near every meta smallman these days just stacks 5 stam toons.

I play both mag and stam, all classes, and think that perhaps the AOE heal needs looking in to. Would suggest nerfing the base strength, then having one morph heal for 60-70% more on self, such that the self healing component stays unchanged. The other morph can keep the range bonus.

For anyone who accuses me of being a stam hater, I also think BOL should only heal allies with the weaker secondary heal component, with the primary always being a self heal, so there is that.

Vapirko

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Vigor stacking is definitely the strongest healing tactic for coordinated groups, it's part of the reason near every meta smallman these days just stacks 5 stam toons.

I play both mag and stam, all classes, and think that perhaps the AOE heal needs looking in to. Would suggest nerfing the base strength, then having one morph heal for 60-70% more on self, such that the self healing component stays unchanged. The other morph can keep the range bonus.

For anyone who accuses me of being a stam hater, I also think BOL should only heal allies with the weaker secondary heal component, with the primary always being a self heal, so there is that.

Is it vigor stacking or is it vigor stacking with one or more troll king? Also id say that the reason most small mans are stamina is for mobilty because while it’s barley passable on stam rn it’s *** on most magicka classes. Getting locked down and focused hurts way more for magicka and that’s nothing but a mobilty issue. Especially if you plan on each player having to more or less watch out for themselves. Sure we can nerf resolving vigor and have the AOE portion do less that’s fine with me, or you could cap the amount of players it can hit to say two. But you know what? People are still gonna get rekt by good players and they’re gonna ask for more nerfs, guaranteed people will still see players popping vigor and think to themselves oh yeah vigor just be the reason 10 of us can’t take down those three players. Nerfing is a slippery slope and you have to admit that vigor stacking really isn’t one of the high priority issues in PvP rn if it’s reallty even that much of an issue at all.

Rikumaru

LonePirate wrote: »

best defensive skill in the game (Evasion)

xcuse me?

technohic

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Vigor stacking is definitely the strongest healing tactic for coordinated groups, it's part of the reason near every meta smallman these days just stacks 5 stam toons.

I play both mag and stam, all classes, and think that perhaps the AOE heal needs looking in to. Would suggest nerfing the base strength, then having one morph heal for 60-70% more on self, such that the self healing component stays unchanged. The other morph can keep the range bonus.

For anyone who accuses me of being a stam hater, I also think BOL should only heal allies with the weaker secondary heal component, with the primary always being a self heal, so there is that.

BOLs secondary heal is really pathetic any more. As is, most run HTD these days to get the magicka return. If they were limited to not be able to heal others, might as well make tanks unable to taunt or guard. It's the entire base of the role for the class for group play.

One reason I run stam is for access to defile. I tested a build Friday night trying more damage in place of defile and it did not work as well for me again decent players. Templars cleanse but it still helps a ton with them, and that OP Vigor really becomes kind of whimpy. If I were to run magplar again, I think I'd keep enough stam to run reverb bash or something. Sorcs can still line up huge burst as magicka and NBs have access. DKs have no execute or burst combo so I imagine it might be harder for them.

frostz417

People like you are the reason this games balance is atrocious.. zos actually looks at the ridiculous posts like these and thinks “hmmm that’s not a bad idea” since most of the combat team doesn’t even play PvP.

GallantGuardian

Zos please disable all ability bar slots while in pvp... all set gear bonuses while in pvp and all champion points in pvp

Then go into the weapons make all weapon heavy attacks the same damage and the same length

Make all light attacks the same speed and damage

Make the resto staff barely heal and make all gear have the same resistances and remove the attributes it boosts

Also disable attributes too put in your character

Sincerely a pve’er who is tired of abilities getting nerfed cause of pvp

Seriously tho

Weren’t the champion points complained about in pvp to the point that they had to make a server or two that are no cp

If that was such a popular idea why are those campaigns dead?

FrankonPC

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Wait. Did you just say Vigor is better than BoL?

yeah seriously. Just give stamina classes a stam morph of breath of life. Then everyone will be happy...right?

Rake

I wish ping over 9000 to all that want vigor nerfs.

mr_wazzabi

Dracane wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Mist form is potentially better than Evasion tbh.

Vigor is a odd ability to use (as someone that usually sticks to magica, specifically magica warden with my living trellis which I consider to be the best solo heal in the game) and stam builds outside of using s/b can have a hard time getting good survivability imo.

That said, a large part of the problem is the AOE nature of this ability. If stamina classes had a better heal on demand then it would remove the need for this to be as good as it is. It has a high healing amount in a very short amount of time and can easily be spammed because of that. Its one of the essential heals in a zerg rush.

But if you just removed it, for example, I think you would see a lot of stamina builds immediately suffer, many exclusively rely on this as a self heal even if it is a HOT with AOE.

I doubt the OP is asking for Vigor to get removed. That would indeed be devastating.
It's just that Vigor is too good all around. It's a great self heal over time (isn't it actually the best with proper stats ?) and also a huge aoe heal. Stamina has an easier time stacking insane amounts of damage and getting huge heals from it.

There literally is no trade off. Magicka can't reach those numbers and ends up dealing less damage and also less healing.
I really don't know how to balance it other than a cheap nerf. From what I gather though, there are no intentions to adjust stamina survival, which is naturally far superior in pvp.

Vigor is not op. It will not stop an endless fury from proccing when you're at execute range.

JPcrazysquirrel3

Please tell me OP is just r e t a r d e d and forgot to take their meds or something, so that we can forget this thread ever happened and go on enjoying the game and finding actual issues to address.

Emma_Overload

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Healing springs > Vigor

Except when you're moving, LOL.

Agalloch

LonePirate wrote: »

Anybody who has ventured into Cyrodiil or BGs has witnessed how ridiculously and unjustifiably overpowered this skill is, primarily due to the ease of stacking Stamina and the skill's broken scaling. I have lost track of the number of times I have seen two players spamming Vigor and taking an entire tightly packed ball group from low health to full health in two quick ticks. It is unquestionably the best AOE heal in the game.

Stamina players already have the best weapon and skill damage in PVP. They have the best mobility and best defensive skill in the game (Evasion) not to mention cheap as dirt blocking and roll dodging. There is no reason for Vigor to be a better skill than Breath of Life or any skill in the Restoration Staff skill line.

I'm sure the Stamina based players will start protesting and disagreeing because they don't want their crutch nerfed. Still, nerfing this skill will begin the journey of bringing some balance between Magicka skills and the exceptionally overpowered Stamina skills in PVP. Vigor should provide roughly the same amount of healing as Healing Springs, a comparable Magicka AOE heal.

Any thoughts on this @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?

What ...??? Another Vigor nerf??

bongtokin420insd16

"Renew your forces' resolve, healing yourself for 7597 Health over 5 seconds and nearby allies for 5861 Health over 5 seconds."

You all do realize vigor only stacks twice right? Once for self cast once for a buddy. so at best i get healed for 13.5k every 5 seconds, and spamming does not good cause i don't get an instant heal.

"heal the matriarch and up to 2 other friendly targets for 4000 Health.|The twilight matriarch remains until killed or unsummoned.

Morph Effect: You summon a twilight matriarch. Once summoned, you can activate the twilight's special ability to heal the matriarch and up to 2 other friendly targets.

Cast Time: 1.5 Seconds

Target: Self"

This says 4k but my sorc heals for 8k or better and costs about the same mag as stam for vigor. (the cost reduction light armor)



So lets do the math, 2 stams running vigor cast it together, costing 5400 and 5 second for a 13.5k heal. Sorcs can pop their pet heal 3 times in that stretch and heal 3 people for 24k. yes 3x costs 8100 magicka while 2x cost only 5400 stam, but considering a poor stam's resource pool is usually 1/3 less than a good mag pool well it seems balanced.

I man both stam and mag and frankly a mag character can sustain for days. A stam one cannot, and vigor is literally all they have to help them stay alive. My sorc doesn't even need a heal as long as i run a ward. (all the time mind you this is just an example)

Vapirko

bongtokin420insd16 wrote: »

"Renew your forces' resolve, healing yourself for 7597 Health over 5 seconds and nearby allies for 5861 Health over 5 seconds."

You all do realize vigor only stacks twice right? Once for self cast once for a buddy. so at best i get healed for 13.5k every 5 seconds, and spamming does not good cause i don't get an instant heal.

"heal the matriarch and up to 2 other friendly targets for 4000 Health.|The twilight matriarch remains until killed or unsummoned.

Morph Effect: You summon a twilight matriarch. Once summoned, you can activate the twilight's special ability to heal the matriarch and up to 2 other friendly targets.

Cast Time: 1.5 Seconds

Target: Self"

This says 4k but my sorc heals for 8k or better and costs about the same mag as stam for vigor. (the cost reduction light armor)



So lets do the math, 2 stams running vigor cast it together, costing 5400 and 5 second for a 13.5k heal. Sorcs can pop their pet heal 3 times in that stretch and heal 3 people for 24k. yes 3x costs 8100 magicka while 2x cost only 5400 stam, but considering a poor stam's resource pool is usually 1/3 less than a good mag pool well it seems balanced.

I man both stam and mag and frankly a mag character can sustain for days. A stam one cannot, and vigor is literally all they have to help them stay alive. My sorc doesn't even need a heal as long as i run a ward. (all the time mind you this is just an example)

“You take that rationality and GTFO. We don’t like your kind ‘round here.” - @ChunkyCat

bongtokin420insd16

lol @Vapirko ok skeeter...

Gnozo

Wow, vigor ticks for max 800 on my allies every 1 second. Cleary the best aoe heal ingame.

How can i heal someone from 10% hp to 100% hp with 2 ticks?

Why not every ball group kick magicka healers out with their underperforming healing springs, bol and Remembramce if they can just take vigor instead?

Clearly some high level pvp knowledge here.

Koensol

OP suffers from a severe case of self-serving bias. Ooh look! These nasty tower farmers killed my zerg while we outnimbered them! They all used vigor and stacked together, so therefore vigor must be OP! I will hereby consciously choose to ignore all other aspects of small scale pvp that make this nasty tower farm group to be succesful. Things like player skill, communication, synergizing builds and buffs, timing, positioning and the lack of skill and organization in my zerg are all not relevant in this situation. The most important fact is that they used vigor and had succes. 1 + 1 = 2 --> Vigor = OP.

MajBludd

I couldn't kill somebody because they used a heal, so now I want it nerfed?

Daedric_NB_187

Jesus Christ I wish the forum moderators would nerf the accounts of people who make these *** threads. Damn it man!

Mayrael

Nah... In PvP I play almost only magicka toons and I never thought that Vigor is somehow OP.

The other question is why stamina dominates PvP (that is a fact)? Is it because of superior burst options? Is it because of superior defensive mechanics (that also doesn't use bar space)? Is it because of better mobility? Or is it because of better HA sets?

Probably it's the combination of all above.

Gnozo

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah... In PvP I play almost only magicka toons and I never thought that Vigor is somehow OP.

The other question is why stamina dominates PvP (that is a fact)? Is it because of superior burst options? Is it because of superior defensive mechanics (that also doesn't use bar space)? Is it because of better mobility? Or is it because of better HA sets?

Probably it's the combination of all above.

What Superior burst options? Sure there are good burst options like incap or sub and dawnbreaker but also magicka classes can get crazy burst.

Magblade for example can get you from 100% to 0 with out an execute needed. Magsorc has also some really good timed burst. Magden and magdk clearly lacks burst but also an execute, thats a Problem.

Defense mechanics like block and dodge roll can be utilized by mag classes aswell. Magsorc roll a lot, magplar and mdks block a lot and are in a spot where blocking doesnt consume your main ressource pool.