When is Vigor getting nerfed?

ZonasArch

itscompton wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Holy *** dude shut the *** up. Jesus. @LonePirate please post your amazing gameplay vids of Stam. Can’t wait to see. Please play 5+ medium pieces.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Mist form is potentially better than Evasion tbh.

Vigor is a odd ability to use (as someone that usually sticks to magica, specifically magica warden with my living trellis which I consider to be the best solo heal in the game) and stam builds outside of using s/b can have a hard time getting good survivability imo.

That said, a large part of the problem is the AOE nature of this ability. If stamina classes had a better heal on demand then it would remove the need for this to be as good as it is. It has a high healing amount in a very short amount of time and can easily be spammed because of that. Its one of the essential heals in a zerg rush.

But if you just removed it, for example, I think you would see a lot of stamina builds immediately suffer, many exclusively rely on this as a self heal even if it is a HOT with AOE.

You can’t spam vigor because there’s no burst heal portion. Spamming it does nothing. OP is nothing more than a salty player.

Not that I'm on the nerf vigor bandwagon but technically spamming it does have some utility as most times I'll get the second tick from the first vigor and the first tick of the new cast to stack in one GCD window. Not nearly as effective as a single cast from HtD but to say it does nothing at all is false.

There is no bandwagon, just one delusional dude and some few supporters.

bongtokin420insd16

@Liam12548 vigor can only stack 2x technically. One of your own casts and an allies. That’s it. It’s been posted here

zaria

bongtokin420insd16 wrote: »

@Liam12548 vigor can only stack 2x technically. One of your own casts and an allies. That’s it. It’s been posted here

Note that any noob magic build in an pug zerg has an resto staff and is spamming healing spring if group tale heavy damage.
Spring stacks even on your own casts. Sorc drops an negate if damage is to high
Vigor is an way to give any stamina build some survival.

Vapirko

Mayrael wrote: »

Nah... In PvP I play almost only magicka toons and I never thought that Vigor is somehow OP.

The other question is why stamina dominates PvP (that is a fact)? Is it because of superior burst options? Is it because of superior defensive mechanics (that also doesn't use bar space)? Is it because of better mobility? Or is it because of better HA sets?

Probably it's the combination of all above.

Honestly I think it’s purely a mobilty thing. What little mobilty is left rn is of the utmost important in solo and small scale play. That’s it. I’ve been rotating through different play styles and specs trying to get a lay of the land so I can offer more informed suggestions and the only thing I can deduce from it all is that mobilty is by far the biggest disparity between mag and stam. Upfront burst definitely plays a big part in out numbered fights but that can be worked out with playstyle. All mag specs are still capable of 1vX except maybe magblade. But when you get locked down as a LA mag spec it’s really hard to get out again.

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx

Topkek

Gnozo

itscompton wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Well I do see a point in OP's post, namely that vigor is one of the best self healing HoTs in the game and at the same time one of the best AoE healing HoTs. There's a reason every stamchar runs it as a must have (in PvP), including all my stambuilds.

I think a reasonable approach would be to further seperate the morphs, one focusing more on self heal, one focusing more on group heal.

However vigor was implemented because stamina didn't have any form of mitigation like shields other than rolldodging, and without vigor 80% of all stamina builds are screwed again.

Careful with adjustments.

But, isnt it like this already?

Resolving vigor increases the self heal.
Echoing vigor has a bigger aoe.

And i wouldnt call it the best aoe heal ingame. It does like 800 hps wich can also be done by rapid regen and combined with healing springs its way stronger then vigor.

As a stamina player you dont have much skills to help your teammates out when they need some healing and reducing the healing on vigor would just kill the healing stamplayers can do to their teammates even more.

Damn man if your vigor is only ticking for 800 hps you need to work on your build. My Stamblade runs 35K stam and about 4500 WD fully buffed and in PvP I tick on average 1.6K non crit and 2.8 crit with a 50% crit rate. But even at those numbers it's not out healing anyone with decent damage. I can make it work on my NB because of cloak but my Stam Warden and Stam DK certainly can't survive off just vigor in a fight with a good player.

Maybe i didnt explain more. 800 hps on allies.

ESO_Nightingale

i don't play stamina much but this pissed me the *** off.

MajBludd

If they nerf vigor than give Stam a shield like hardened ward to help us mitigate some of the damage. How's that OP, is that an acceptable compromise?

TrinityBreaker

itscompton wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Holy *** dude shut the *** up. Jesus. @LonePirate please post your amazing gameplay vids of Stam. Can’t wait to see. Please play 5+ medium pieces.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Mist form is potentially better than Evasion tbh.

Vigor is a odd ability to use (as someone that usually sticks to magica, specifically magica warden with my living trellis which I consider to be the best solo heal in the game) and stam builds outside of using s/b can have a hard time getting good survivability imo.

That said, a large part of the problem is the AOE nature of this ability. If stamina classes had a better heal on demand then it would remove the need for this to be as good as it is. It has a high healing amount in a very short amount of time and can easily be spammed because of that. Its one of the essential heals in a zerg rush.

But if you just removed it, for example, I think you would see a lot of stamina builds immediately suffer, many exclusively rely on this as a self heal even if it is a HOT with AOE.

You can’t spam vigor because there’s no burst heal portion. Spamming it does nothing. OP is nothing more than a salty player.

Not that I'm on the nerf vigor bandwagon but technically spamming it does have some utility as most times I'll get the second tick from the first vigor and the first tick of the new cast to stack in one GCD window. Not nearly as effective as a single cast from HtD but to say it does nothing at all is false.

That is not a thing. You cast it once and get the heal, recasting it 1 second after the first vigor will NOT give you 2 separate vigor heal ticks.

Yep sure does if you hit it just right.

Alright sir I definitely need to see that in action then.

Kartalin

MajBludd wrote: »

If they nerf vigor than give Stam a shield like hardened ward to help us mitigate some of the damage. How's that OP, is that an acceptable compromise?

Like bone shield ?

Ragnaroek93

Derra wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I'd trade Vigor all day long for a stamina based shield which can compete with Hardened Ward, just saying. Vigor ticks for like 1.3k on my build, that's far away from being OP.

Where is the basis for comparison though? HW is a class skill vigor is a universially accessible skill.

I'd trade it against another shield which is spammable as well. Like the Boneshield which didn't survive the PTS. No idea why they nerfed it since shields are so weak anyways

coop500

Uhh no, Vigor is the only decent heal for Stamplayers, if there were other options? Sure, but as of this time, besides the much smaller heal tick of the two handed weapon skillline and warden's stamshrooms, vigor is like the only heal for stam players.

Give us something else to heal with and then maybe we can talk, but as of this time, no.

Flame_of_Hades

wow this thread.... okay, now as someone who has played EVERY spec at one point (some more than others, obviously..) vigor over performs, but not as much as OP is claiming. when i play with my guild (4-8 players, depending on the time/day) we don't call out for our healer main for a healing ult, we say "stack vigors", because that is better healing. when i can vigor and block, i can assume the vigor will take me to full health, when i play magicka, i have to spend 2-3x the resources to get to full health in about the same about of time. think about it, many stamina builds can survive with JUST vigor, while magicka builds keep as many as 3 heals/shields on their bar for the same/less survivability. In my experience magicka has been overall weaker than stamina for some time now, and in the interest of a balanced game this needs to stop, magicka should not be stronger than stamina, and stamina should not be stronger than magicka. every spec needs the same baseline.

Wuuffyy

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

wow this thread.... okay, now as someone who has played EVERY spec at one point (some more than others, obviously..) vigor over performs, but not as much as OP is claiming. when i play with my guild (4-8 players, depending on the time/day) we don't call out for our healer main for a healing ult, we say "stack vigors", because that is better healing. when i can vigor and block, i can assume the vigor will take me to full health, when i play magicka, i have to spend 2-3x the resources to get to full health in about the same about of time. think about it, many stamina builds can survive with JUST vigor, while magicka builds keep as many as 3 heals/shields on their bar for the same/less survivability. In my experience magicka has been overall weaker than stamina for some time now, and in the interest of a balanced game this needs to stop, magicka should not be stronger than stamina, and stamina should not be stronger than magicka. every spec needs the same baseline.

I mean they have range, more burst w/o an ult, more utility. If I go partial melee with 1 heal I should then be rewarded with higher dps and 1 heal like vigor. Balanced as is gg no re.

Flame_of_Hades

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

wow this thread.... okay, now as someone who has played EVERY spec at one point (some more than others, obviously..) vigor over performs, but not as much as OP is claiming. when i play with my guild (4-8 players, depending on the time/day) we don't call out for our healer main for a healing ult, we say "stack vigors", because that is better healing. when i can vigor and block, i can assume the vigor will take me to full health, when i play magicka, i have to spend 2-3x the resources to get to full health in about the same about of time. think about it, many stamina builds can survive with JUST vigor, while magicka builds keep as many as 3 heals/shields on their bar for the same/less survivability. In my experience magicka has been overall weaker than stamina for some time now, and in the interest of a balanced game this needs to stop, magicka should not be stronger than stamina, and stamina should not be stronger than magicka. every spec needs the same baseline.

I mean they have range, more burst w/o an ult, more utility. If I go partial melee with 1 heal I should then be rewarded with higher dps and 1 heal like vigor. Balanced as is gg no re.

no, if you go partial melee with 1 heal you should die and be force to add more heals, such as rally/crit surge/major mending from frag shield. The reward comes from the higher risk, so we should not be rewarded with higher damage AND equal/more survivability for playing melee. trade offs... we can't have the best of all worlds and call it balance..

ZonasArch

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

wow this thread.... okay, now as someone who has played EVERY spec at one point (some more than others, obviously..) vigor over performs, but not as much as OP is claiming. when i play with my guild (4-8 players, depending on the time/day) we don't call out for our healer main for a healing ult, we say "stack vigors", because that is better healing. when i can vigor and block, i can assume the vigor will take me to full health, when i play magicka, i have to spend 2-3x the resources to get to full health in about the same about of time. think about it, many stamina builds can survive with JUST vigor, while magicka builds keep as many as 3 heals/shields on their bar for the same/less survivability. In my experience magicka has been overall weaker than stamina for some time now, and in the interest of a balanced game this needs to stop, magicka should not be stronger than stamina, and stamina should not be stronger than magicka. every spec needs the same baseline.

I mean they have range, more burst w/o an ult, more utility. If I go partial melee with 1 heal I should then be rewarded with higher dps and 1 heal like vigor. Balanced as is gg no re.

no, if you go partial melee with 1 heal you should die and be force to add more heals, such as rally/crit surge/major mending from frag shield. The reward comes from the higher risk, so we should not be rewarded with higher damage AND equal/more survivability for playing melee. trade offs... we can't have the best of all worlds and call it balance..

Even stacking vigor and rally/momentum... That's barely survivability. Without burst heals, the trade off is already there, no? If take a hard hit, you're vulnerable for the next seconds, not just the next tick of GCD.

Mind you, I would like a burst option for vigor, not another heal. And I like the balance the way it is. I agree with you about trade offs. Can't have shield sorcs again the game.

Flame_of_Hades

ZonasArch wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

wow this thread.... okay, now as someone who has played EVERY spec at one point (some more than others, obviously..) vigor over performs, but not as much as OP is claiming. when i play with my guild (4-8 players, depending on the time/day) we don't call out for our healer main for a healing ult, we say "stack vigors", because that is better healing. when i can vigor and block, i can assume the vigor will take me to full health, when i play magicka, i have to spend 2-3x the resources to get to full health in about the same about of time. think about it, many stamina builds can survive with JUST vigor, while magicka builds keep as many as 3 heals/shields on their bar for the same/less survivability. In my experience magicka has been overall weaker than stamina for some time now, and in the interest of a balanced game this needs to stop, magicka should not be stronger than stamina, and stamina should not be stronger than magicka. every spec needs the same baseline.

I mean they have range, more burst w/o an ult, more utility. If I go partial melee with 1 heal I should then be rewarded with higher dps and 1 heal like vigor. Balanced as is gg no re.

no, if you go partial melee with 1 heal you should die and be force to add more heals, such as rally/crit surge/major mending from frag shield. The reward comes from the higher risk, so we should not be rewarded with higher damage AND equal/more survivability for playing melee. trade offs... we can't have the best of all worlds and call it balance..

Even stacking vigor and rally/momentum... That's barely survivability. Without burst heals, the trade off is already there, no? If take a hard hit, you're vulnerable for the next seconds, not just the next tick of GCD.

Mind you, I would like a burst option for vigor, not another heal. And I like the balance the way it is. I agree with you about trade offs. Can't have shield sorcs again the game.

rally by its self is near a heal to full, depending on how long you let it go. add a vigor onto that and it is going to be near impossible to pressure you for the next 4-5 seconds. the only thing you really have to worry about is a 100-0 in 1-2 GCDs depending on if the first gcd was a DBoS... again, iv played both magicka and stamina, a lot, like, an unhealthy amount. stamina is much easier to play than magicka atm.

ZonasArch

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

wow this thread.... okay, now as someone who has played EVERY spec at one point (some more than others, obviously..) vigor over performs, but not as much as OP is claiming. when i play with my guild (4-8 players, depending on the time/day) we don't call out for our healer main for a healing ult, we say "stack vigors", because that is better healing. when i can vigor and block, i can assume the vigor will take me to full health, when i play magicka, i have to spend 2-3x the resources to get to full health in about the same about of time. think about it, many stamina builds can survive with JUST vigor, while magicka builds keep as many as 3 heals/shields on their bar for the same/less survivability. In my experience magicka has been overall weaker than stamina for some time now, and in the interest of a balanced game this needs to stop, magicka should not be stronger than stamina, and stamina should not be stronger than magicka. every spec needs the same baseline.

I mean they have range, more burst w/o an ult, more utility. If I go partial melee with 1 heal I should then be rewarded with higher dps and 1 heal like vigor. Balanced as is gg no re.

no, if you go partial melee with 1 heal you should die and be force to add more heals, such as rally/crit surge/major mending from frag shield. The reward comes from the higher risk, so we should not be rewarded with higher damage AND equal/more survivability for playing melee. trade offs... we can't have the best of all worlds and call it balance..

Even stacking vigor and rally/momentum... That's barely survivability. Without burst heals, the trade off is already there, no? If take a hard hit, you're vulnerable for the next seconds, not just the next tick of GCD.

Mind you, I would like a burst option for vigor, not another heal. And I like the balance the way it is. I agree with you about trade offs. Can't have shield sorcs again the game.

rally by its self is near a heal to full, depending on how long you let it go. add a vigor onto that and it is going to be near impossible to pressure you for the next 4-5 seconds. the only thing you really have to worry about is a 100-0 in 1-2 GCDs depending on if the first gcd was a DBoS... again, iv played both magicka and stamina, a lot, like, an unhealthy amount. stamina is much easier to play than magicka atm.

Ok, 2h noob here... How do you forcibly interrupt rally? Casting it again? Does it pop the burst heal? O.o if so, then yes... 2h-ers are more than ok, like DW with bloodthirst (is it the name?).

Funny how you say unhealthy amount... It's not like you're doing drugs or anything :P but yeah... I know what you mean having close if not cover 5k hours in this game. :X

RinaldoGandolphi

I am surprised and also sad how disohonest folks are being here.

Vigor is of course OP it always has been. Ezareth and I warned them back in 2015 when it was put on the PTS that it was too strong and would lead to stamina dominating the game once players got past about 450 CP....ZOS wouldn't listen.

Before they put Vigor in its current incarnation in the game, things were pretty balanced.

Stamina had:


Strengths
Higher DPS
Higher Burst DPS
Greater Mobility
More Resources to dodge and Break free

AT THE EXPENSE OF:
Lower Healing output
Lower Survivability

Magicka Had:

Strengths
Better Healing
Better Survivability
Damage Shields

AT THE EXPENSE OF:
Lesser DPS
Lesser Burst DPS
Lesser Stamina
Lesser ability to dodge
Lesser abilty to break free

Prior to Vigor BOTH stamina and magicka were balanced. Stamina had higher damage output at the expense of survivabilty, and magicka had greater survivability at the expense of damage.

This is how it should have stayed. Stamina Tanks were still viable because healers in trial groups and 4 mans would keep the tank alive, many completed VDSA with Stam tanks prior to CP and Vigor. So that isn't a valid excuse.

Stamin Sorc for example is absurdly easy to beat VMA with, anyone can beat VMA with a Stam Sorc as long as they don't stand in poison plants...I don't even use Vigor in VMA at all on Stam Sorc, but using Vigor makes it a face roll for anyone who has two working thumbs.

Stam Blade is the easiest PVP spec in the game to kill people with...i deleted my level 49 cat Stam Blade two eyars ago because its so absurdly broken you could jump people and just destroy them in 2-3 GCD one of which is a stun which is a complete joke.

Those defending Vigor in its current form are not being honest, and they are doing the game and a community a disservice. This is even more apparant as folks resort to name calling.

Magicka doesn't need more mobility, and stamina doesn't need Vigor.

what Stamina needs is MORe mobilty and longer term root and snare immunity but Vigor taken away completely.

What Magicka needs is better healing anf damage sheild scaling mechanics.

Stamina should have great damage and mobility at the expense of healing and survivability

Magicka should have more healing, better sheilds, at the expense of damage and mobility.

Of course most people don't really want a balanced game because they can't be unbaised and look at things from more than their own narrow point of view. Its a sad state of affairs how things have become in ESO lately...glad i got a few others game to occupy my time before i come back at some point.

Jhalin

Anyway despite textwall doom and gloom, Vigor isn’t OP and never has been

technohic

Probably should talk about current game and not 2015 version. Sounds kind of stupid.

CatchMeTrolling

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I am surprised and also sad how disohonest folks are being here.

Vigor is of course OP it always has been. Ezareth and I warned them back in 2015 when it was put on the PTS that it was too strong and would lead to stamina dominating the game once players got past about 450 CP....ZOS wouldn't listen.

Before they put Vigor in its current incarnation in the game, things were pretty balanced.

Stamina had:


Strengths
Higher DPS
Higher Burst DPS
Greater Mobility
More Resources to dodge and Break free

AT THE EXPENSE OF:
Lower Healing output
Lower Survivability

Magicka Had:

Strengths
Better Healing
Better Survivability
Damage Shields

AT THE EXPENSE OF:
Lesser DPS
Lesser Burst DPS
Lesser Stamina
Lesser ability to dodge
Lesser abilty to break free

Prior to Vigor BOTH stamina and magicka were balanced. Stamina had higher damage output at the expense of survivabilty, and magicka had greater survivability at the expense of damage.

This is how it should have stayed. Stamina Tanks were still viable because healers in trial groups and 4 mans would keep the tank alive, many completed VDSA with Stam tanks prior to CP and Vigor. So that isn't a valid excuse.

Stamin Sorc for example is absurdly easy to beat VMA with, anyone can beat VMA with a Stam Sorc as long as they don't stand in poison plants...I don't even use Vigor in VMA at all on Stam Sorc, but using Vigor makes it a face roll for anyone who has two working thumbs.

Stam Blade is the easiest PVP spec in the game to kill people with...i deleted my level 49 cat Stam Blade two eyars ago because its so absurdly broken you could jump people and just destroy them in 2-3 GCD one of which is a stun which is a complete joke.

Those defending Vigor in its current form are not being honest, and they are doing the game and a community a disservice. This is even more apparant as folks resort to name calling.

Magicka doesn't need more mobility, and stamina doesn't need Vigor.

what Stamina needs is MORe mobilty and longer term root and snare immunity but Vigor taken away completely.

What Magicka needs is better healing anf damage sheild scaling mechanics.

Stamina should have great damage and mobility at the expense of healing and survivability

Magicka should have more healing, better sheilds, at the expense of damage and mobility.

Of course most people don't really want a balanced game because they can't be unbaised and look at things from more than their own narrow point of view. Its a sad state of affairs how things have become in ESO lately...glad i got a few others game to occupy my time before i come back at some point.

Nah. You’re stuck in the past. What you’re suggesting wouldn’t balance the game it would do exactly the same thing you don’t like. People would choose whatever is bis, whether it’s pve or pvp.

Vapirko

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I am surprised and also sad how disohonest folks are being here.

Vigor is of course OP it always has been. Ezareth and I warned them back in 2015 when it was put on the PTS that it was too strong and would lead to stamina dominating the game once players got past about 450 CP....ZOS wouldn't listen.

Before they put Vigor in its current incarnation in the game, things were pretty balanced.

Stamina had:


Strengths
Higher DPS
Higher Burst DPS
Greater Mobility
More Resources to dodge and Break free

AT THE EXPENSE OF:
Lower Healing output
Lower Survivability

Magicka Had:

Strengths
Better Healing
Better Survivability
Damage Shields

AT THE EXPENSE OF:
Lesser DPS
Lesser Burst DPS
Lesser Stamina
Lesser ability to dodge
Lesser abilty to break free

Prior to Vigor BOTH stamina and magicka were balanced. Stamina had higher damage output at the expense of survivabilty, and magicka had greater survivability at the expense of damage.

This is how it should have stayed. Stamina Tanks were still viable because healers in trial groups and 4 mans would keep the tank alive, many completed VDSA with Stam tanks prior to CP and Vigor. So that isn't a valid excuse.

Stamin Sorc for example is absurdly easy to beat VMA with, anyone can beat VMA with a Stam Sorc as long as they don't stand in poison plants...I don't even use Vigor in VMA at all on Stam Sorc, but using Vigor makes it a face roll for anyone who has two working thumbs.

Stam Blade is the easiest PVP spec in the game to kill people with...i deleted my level 49 cat Stam Blade two eyars ago because its so absurdly broken you could jump people and just destroy them in 2-3 GCD one of which is a stun which is a complete joke.

Those defending Vigor in its current form are not being honest, and they are doing the game and a community a disservice. This is even more apparant as folks resort to name calling.

Magicka doesn't need more mobility, and stamina doesn't need Vigor.

what Stamina needs is MORe mobilty and longer term root and snare immunity but Vigor taken away completely.

What Magicka needs is better healing anf damage sheild scaling mechanics.

Stamina should have great damage and mobility at the expense of healing and survivability

Magicka should have more healing, better sheilds, at the expense of damage and mobility.

Of course most people don't really want a balanced game because they can't be unbaised and look at things from more than their own narrow point of view. Its a sad state of affairs how things have become in ESO lately...glad i got a few others game to occupy my time before i come back at some point.

And yet magicka damage is very high with tooltips to match stamina, and this is not three years ago. So, no. If you nerf vigor you know who wins? The zergs. And I’m guessing that’s exactly what OP is and why they started this thread. Also do you know how much crying would happen if you lowered magicka damage to the point of balance if you took vigor away?? OP would be screaming. Not to mention magicka Templar’s have very good healing and damage, magicka wardens have incredible healing and damage, only mag sorcs/NBs are our a decent heal but mag sorcs do ok even so. Also why are you bringing up vMA in a PvP thread? It’s not comparable. And the reason vMA is now easy is CP increases not vigor. There’s so much wrong and outdated thinking in your assessment. Your being fairly biased yourself, just towards your own views, and you’re not the only one here who has played most of all the classes for a significant amount of time.

CompM4s

If you want a L2P example of all time, look no further. You have found the perfect thread.

splitsand

CompM4s wrote: »

If you want a L2P example of all time, look no further. You have found the perfect thread.

I honestly thought this was a troll thread at first. I'm still having trouble believing people actually believe this.

spartaxoxo

LonePirate wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Stamina heals are woefully terrible compared to magicka heals. Vigor is literally the only good stamina-based heal in the game for all possible stamina builds, and it takes a while to unlock for new characters too. If you were to nerf Vigor, then there's nothing left for stamina survivability, and then you can say farewell to any chance of your stamina build being recruited for a Trial.

I have no problems with the self-heal for Vigor. It is the massively OP group AOE heal component in PVP that needs to be nerfed or removed. Reading through this thread, it is obvious there are plenty of horrible Stamina PVP players who could not survive in PVP unless they have both the OP damage skills and heals which Stamina offers in Cyrodiil and BGs.Nerfing the group heal portion of Vigor is the first step to establishing Stamina and Magicka balance in PVP which has been stacked in Stamina's favor for far too long.

Vigor isn't causing that though....

splitsand

Ladies and gents,

PvP is hard.

Certain things are definitely over performing and vigor is most definitely not one of them. Does vigor excel in keeping a small group of stamina players alive?

Yes, it does.

Would that same group of players be even tankier with a magplar or a magden healing them?

I think we all know the answer.


Every single class in this game can be competitive. Very few skills present problems (DK wings, targetable pets, broken stuns, snipe, etc... ).

I can guarantee you 100% that if you spent a little while trying to learn the game at a deeper level you would see these things.

A great example is everyone who has complained about Magsorcs (PvE excluded..this is a PvP thread) BUT, look at them right now. Every tournament has to ban half of there skills because a majority of classes cant touch them behind pets, mines, timestop, etc. Magsorcs are very good right now and there are many good players playing them (Irylia, Arya, Veyta, etc..). But, if you look on the forums you would think magsorcs are the worst class of all time.

The best tip I can give would be to record your gameplay and go back over what got you killed. Either that or if you think something is so OP then make that class and try it out for yourself.

Dr.NRG

LonePirate wrote: »

Anybody who has ventured into Cyrodiil or BGs has witnessed how ridiculously and unjustifiably overpowered this skill is, primarily due to the ease of stacking Stamina and the skill's broken scaling. I have lost track of the number of times I have seen two players spamming Vigor and taking an entire tightly packed ball group from low health to full health in two quick ticks. It is unquestionably the best AOE heal in the game.

Stamina players already have the best weapon and skill damage in PVP. They have the best mobility and best defensive skill in the game (Evasion) not to mention cheap as dirt blocking and roll dodging. There is no reason for Vigor to be a better skill than Breath of Life or any skill in the Restoration Staff skill line.

I'm sure the Stamina based players will start protesting and disagreeing because they don't want their crutch nerfed. Still, nerfing this skill will begin the journey of bringing some balance between Magicka skills and the exceptionally overpowered Stamina skills in PVP. Vigor should provide roughly the same amount of healing as Healing Springs, a comparable Magicka AOE heal.

Any thoughts on this @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?

No offense but this threat is as ridiculous as the one where the dude was asking ZOS Not to nerf new curse easter.
Have you ever played a stam toon before?? Vigor is a HOT its not op at all.
An average decent gamer with full cp will get 16k over 5 seconds outside of pvp. Thats 1.6k health per second in pvp on non crits or 2.6k crits with a 60% chance(given he has speced some points in blessed and other which lot of people dont even do)... A DK tankier build with major mending and specing lots of cp in healing will be able to reach 20k in 5s outside pvp, he will get at best 2k per second non crit and 3.2k on crit in pvp. This is still not op whatsover. If people would like you say “be spaming it” they would run out of resources while gaining nothing as they would only rest their timers... Why do you think so many stam pvp dps gamers run Troll king or blood spawn and not dps sets like magica gamers? The answer is simple, 90% of all damage builds have to or they will be to squishy as vigor and rally are good but by far not good enough to keep them alive.

Now look at other heals. My magplar does depending on my build 10-15k breath of lives in pvp. It takes 1s and I sure can spam that all day. Same for werwolf heals, pets sorc heals and so on...then there are shields, pets, certain sets yada yada yada...Doesnt that sound OP? It can be broken in certain cases but mostly isnt as these classes are/ builds depend on it and can be countered. However, do some duels they mostly harder to counter than stam guys running vigor lol, so maybe you should complain there first instead of trying to argue something is broken when it is clearly not...

Peace!

Sun7dance

What do you think staminas would use if they had access to a breath of life stamina version?
Still vigor?

Apart from that magickas still have mutagen/rapid regeneration. A very underrated skill in my opinion. It's almost as strong as vigor (maybe even stronger with passives in some situations) but a lot cheaper and has a longer duration.
And there are healing springs of course. Stronger and cheaper (coz it restores magicka) as well.

Thing is magplars just don't care about, coz they have breath of life!

Any questions?

Checkmath

Sorry, I was too lazy to read the whole comments and so I apologize, if I repeat something....

Lets compare some tooltips of different skills and afterwards conclude, if vigor really is OP.

First off, lets compare base values of some skills:

Vigor: 1141 healing over 5 seconds (1474 in the case of the self heal of resolving vigor).
Breath of life: 1277 single target healing instant cast.
Hasty prayer: 1279 aoe healing instant cast.
Illustrious healing (prolonged healing springs morph): 259 instant cast healing plus 1036 over 4 seconds.

As everybody sees is the aoe portion of vigor smaller than the cast of one hasty prayer and also smaller than the full healing amount of healing springs. Also healing springs heals the bigger amount over a shorter amount of time and can placed several times on the ground and stacks, so that actually you can get more healing per second that vigor does over its full duration. Also hasty prayer (lets just ignore its huge cost for a moment) is the much burstier heal here, heals more than 5 seconds of vigor in an instant cast, also "allows" using this skill several times in a row, resulting in huge aoe healing. For the self healing part, the resolving vigor tooltip is a bit bigger than the one of breath of life, still the heal is over 5 seconds and breath of life can be spammed, resulting in much more healing per second if spammed.

Now that was the comparison of the base tooltips, which looks quite in favor for the magicka abilities.

One of the biggest tooltips I have seen of resolving vigor is 25k selfhealing on a stamdk with major mending, heavy armor and increased healing received from volatile armor.
The average tooltip of a magplars breath of life buffed should be around 12k, so around half the value of the above mentioned vigor. This shows, that the high weapon damage of stamina characters really profits them. Still it is very easy to compare those numbers. A magplar with 12k breath of life tooltip has the same amount of selfhealing within two seconds, meanwhile that stamdk needs 5 seconds. Also the magplar probably reaches even more healing, since he has a bonus to healing low health targets.
Hasty prayer and healing springs have even more healing than breath of life (shown above in the base tooltips), which therefore makes its aoe healing also more powerful than vigors (remember that both healing springs and hasty prayer can approximately heal for 12k per second and vigor heals that big amount over 5 seconds). Also the aoe healing component of vigor is smaller than those 25k (only the self healing is that strong).

In that case, I really doubt, that the tremendous healing OP experienced in those groups solely came from vigor. The tooltips of vigor of such ballgroup builds is by far not as strong as those 25k, also is halved in cyrodiil. So I would guess, that two people together in 2 seconds would heal a group by 6-8k, meanwhile one templar healer could heal the whole group in 2 seconds for about 20k for tremendous costs using hasty prayer. More likely it is, that those healers use healing springs tough as long as there is no emergency, which also could heal for around 10k per second, when the group stacks in the circles.