iam117 wrote: »

shouldn't matter if the difficulty of normal is lowered, vet/HM could remain the same or even increased to appease people that want a challenge, But in playing devils advocate, ZOS knows what they are catering to on a business level (one would hope?) based on game feedback (in game and out), gotta wonder, but they probably use that to scale the difficulty. They are after all in it to make money, not a bad thing, but they would likely be aware of where the difficulty should be based on broader player skill in order to keep making those dollars.

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

All the dungeons out now are easy enough. It's all about learning and understanding mechanics.

For vet DLC dungeons I have simple requirements:

Discord required.
CP500+
Proper build/gear, 25-30k DPS

I've ran them all, no issues the most important thing is having people communicate and actually listen.

Not everyone wants to talk with strangers.

I get that, but I don't trust random people to actually know mechanics and listen. It's much easier to get them to comprehend when you're telling it in their ear vs having to trust they read chat.

talking usually refers to both voice AND text chat. some people sometimes would just rather play on their own.

Sure, and that's why you run into so many issues on vet DLC dungeons. I on the other hand have not.

actualy, i run into issues PUGGING them on NORMAL. WHILE communicating. text is still communication.

every single person who goes "this dungeons are easy" is either playing with a premade group where the know exactly how well their mates are performing WHILE excluding people who are in their view underperforming (which is like... majority of ESO population) and/or are such high performers that they can quite literally compensate for under performing group members.

the rest of us make do with whoever we get, and/or people we like to play with, but that are NOT god's gift to gaming. and herein lays a problem. even on normal DLC dungeons are very VERY unforgiving to such people. forger vet for a moment. NORMAL.

so fine. half the DLC's are useless to us despite a fair chunk of us paying for acess to them via ps plus - so that's half the updates that we don't get to do much with, unless we get lucky and/or have someone take pity on us. but now. NOW they are actualy part of the overreaching story art.

please. for the love of god. STOP with "git gud" just.. stop. its not happening. for a moment instead... just try. just a little bit, TRY to maybe see it from a perspective of someone who is NOT you and doesn't play like you do.

and btw, when I say people who would rather not talk to others, I mean.. they would rather NOT GROUP WITH OTHERS AT ALL.

not everyone likes to play in a group.

P.S. btw... consider for a moment. just for a moment, that its NOT the lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k.

It is lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k. I can pull 15k on a PvP toon in PvE content and that's not even with proper gear. Research means knowing your rotation, build and gear. Thus lack of rotation = bad dps.

sigh. I mean I'm not surprised that you are not getting it, but.. you are not getting it. knowing rotation =/= being able to execute it. especially in ESO that doesn't have tab targeting, has this mess of a system called LA weaving/animation canceling in addition to bar swapping. oh and latency. latency messes you up in this game in a way that it doesn't in other mmos...

I just... there is this russian saying that roughly translates as "someone with full belly will never understand someone who is starving" I feel like it applies here.


and you know the irony here, is for all this "you have to be social, its an MMO" admonitions from all these people, you all are also perfectly ok with kicking people out of groups if they don;'t perform to your specifications, forgetting that those people are PEOPLE, they are someone's friends, they are probably people in this thread and others like it. they could be (and often are) perfectly nice people that just happen not to be god's gift to gaming. off with their heads! /slam the kick button

I do get it, you don't. I was new, and I'm a way better player than I was back then. If you get kicked then accept it. I'm not about to be punished and have to sit through a miserable dungeon because you can't better yourself. Nope.

you don't get it. I'm a better player then i used to be as well. I didn't used to be able to solo early normal dungeons or those 2 craglorn story quests that are group based. now I can. however, personal improvement =/= enough for ever growing demands of the the new content, especially with people like YOU.

I'm sorry people like YOU whine about wanting stuff easier.

personal anecdote. I tried tanking vet cradle of shadows once. we did fine until we got to that boss in a dark room with braziers. there is a part where she teleports across the room and starts a cast that MUST be interrupted, or... death. so what I had to do, is find her, get close enough for much charge to work, charge her and bash her - before the cast finishes. and I failed every single time by being just a second too slow. because my reflexes are not perfect, becasue my aiming is not perfect. I understood the mechanic. I made an effort to execute the mechanic,. but I wasn't fast enough to do it.

but you say, dps with, I think its crushing shock? destro staff ability with morph that does interrupts - could do it! we didn't have one in a group, cause we formed a group on a basis of people we wanted to be IN the group, healer didn't have one, dps were stam. so that interrupt HAD to be on me. and I couldn't do it. boo for me, right? git gud?? git faster? I can't. as I age I will ONLY get slower.

In all fairness, that attack is a very basic L2P: if you cannot interrupt it then you block it, and blocking is a basic response that all players should know by the time they take the training wheels off in NORMAL dungeons, let alone by the time they are thinking about vets.

All you've really done with your outburst, is underline the problem here: Players who do not take the time to learn basic game abilities, diving into certain content then QQing the game is too hard, rather than considering that they perhaps have not learned the basics.

Anyone who cannot block by the time they are at the level required to enter vCoS is a bad player, there's not really any other way to say that. It's a bit like you asking if you can drive my Porsche on a track day, then halfway through the first lap you tell me you've not passed your basic road driving test.

ffs. how. HOW do you keep missing the "not quickly enough" part?

I can block and I can bash and I can switch targets and I can aim.. eventually. this is not a matter of understanding. this is a matter of quick enough EXECUTION.

The not quickly enough? The one shot mechanics don't even one shot you on normal. Hell, half of the one shot mechanics from vet HM dungeons won't even one shot you on vet if you're not doing hard mode. Regardless, you see a big red growing AOE, it literally gives you two seconds before it happens. When you have to block, you literally see the person rearing back to heavy attack. Ray Charles would even be able to react to that and he is blind.

oh its you again. it must be nice to have perfect latency, perfect reflexes, really bad understanding of math (typical health of a healer or dps - 16 to 18 k - typical one shot damage - 20k+) and zero compassion.

whatever. good for you that these things are os not a problem for you, that you'd rather insult other people for being beneath you in their video game skills.

I'm not insulting you. I'm simply stating that this is stuff that can be learned, as long as you're paying attention. The issue with you is you come at people the wrong way. Learn to talk to people and don't try to be sly with your insults.

For instance:
-vEH1 HM(last boss one shot mechanic is a red ring that grows in a circle, takes about 2-3 seconds to get big and then it hits, and will one shot a person. Roll dodge out of it)

-vFG1 HM(last boss same thing as the one above, roll dodge out)

vICP HM(when he goes in the air, go to the portals. Save the closer portals for non stam characters, just have to pay attention where you're moving)

vSC1 HM(big growing red aoe circle, again roll dodge out)

vSC2(the ghost boss, pay attention where you're standing, when somebody gets the red circle make sure you move away from them)

vBC1 HM(can be a little tricky if you're melee but ranged you should be far enough so that when he turns to face you and throws w/e at you, you have time to block)

vCoH2(the boss right before the last, where she pulls you in, talk with the group make sure everybody knows which way they're roll dodging, and make sure to not roll dodge into the other red aoe that is outside of the main one that grows from her)

vVoM(first boss, light attack only until he connects to a player with beam, then KEEP light attacking until he breaks it, so basically left click, left click, left click, rinse an repeat and after the beam is broken then you DPS. This way you don't kill one of your own in group)

Anyways, that's just a few off the top of my head, so if you want to insult again, I'll happily make you look more foolish again.

Numerikuu wrote: »

Tell that to the disabled, or to those players who avoid dungeons because the mere thought of doing them brings on anxiety or panic attacks, mostly down to awful experiences from toxic elitists who think everyone can pull off said dps, and if they don't they get treated like lesser people/like ***, and kicked from the dungeon.

Adding a solo/story mode won't effect you. Normal and Vet will continue to exist for the gear. I don't see why adding an option for those simply wanting to enjoy the story is such a bad idea. If anything? More people would actually be willing to try, sub, or even purchase dungeon dlc if these modes existed--myself certainly included.

TimeWizard wrote: »

A couple notes

1. High ping doesn't have to mean that you can't play the content in this game. I run dlc hm trials with people who have 2k ping or higher quite frequently. It doesn't require paying more attention to mechanics and learning them better them people who have optimal ping have to, but it is quite doable. The first year I played I had really bad internet, but I still learned to make do.
If you have highly fluctuating ping it is very difficult to do though, I will admit.

I don't have to worry about high ping for the most part. I generally sit between 120-200 depending on what I'm doing, and I don't usually get the higher stuff in dungeons (it's usually when I end up briefly foraying into Cyro for some reason). That being said, I do get the occasional lag spike that shoots into the thousands, and the game becomes unplayable in those cases. Skills don't fire properly if at all, weapon swaps don't work, sprint may either not work or be stuck in the 'on' position that happens sometimes, interacting with the environment and NPCs can take ages to register...you'll have to forgive me for being just a bit skeptical that you've got people running HM trials and stuff without issues when they have regular ping of that level.

2. I actually have really bad anxiety myself and suffer from frequent panic attacks. Don't use those arguments against me.

No one is using anxiety as an argument against anyone in particular, but rather stating those things AS arguments. Not all anxiety is the same, and people can have varying levels of anxiety over things. I have anxiety over certain things, though none of it pertains to doing content in ESO with other people. But just because someone brings up a subject doesn't mean they're using it as an argument against someone; there's every chance they're using it as an example.

3. I will freely admit to being an elitist endgame player who thinks that the game should be balaced around what I like to do. Though more accurately I want class balance and group content to be balanced around the endgame players. I think that the questing and lore stuff being much more open and easy is great for the game as a whole.

And why should the game be solely focused around what you like to do? That...kinda goes beyond elitism at that point. This game isn't tailored for any individual player, but rather a great deal many of them, thus the MMO part of MMORPG. Why should the game be balanced only around one section of players (in this case endgame)? That's like saying only those players are of any value and no one else has any right of playing the game.

4. The reason I want normal dungeons continue to get harder along with the vet versions is that I really want them to teach mechanics to the less experienced players who run them. That way when they try the dungeons on vet they will have a basic understanding of the mechanics already.

Dungeons getting harder and harder like this won't teach anyone the basic mechanics if they don't know them before they start going into the dungeons. What it WILL do is frustrate them and drive them away. You know what would teach newer players the mechanics? Proper, more in-depth tutorials that have you practicing the mechanics several times so you get the feel for them, rather than giving you one instance where you're prompted before moving you on to the next. Normal dungeons aren't there to teach basic mechanics, they're there for a) people to have fun doing, and if individuals are so inclined, they're b) there for people to learn mechanics for Vet mode. I mean we could say they're also there for farming gear and other reasons, but those don't really pertain to the discussion at hand imo.

5. I don't want to bash anyone. I just want people to learn the combat mechanics of the game if they choose to play in the group content. If anyone ever asks me for advice on how to improve I will always tell them everything I know that will help them, or direct them to someone with a better skillset to do so.

mairwen85 wrote: »

The problem is that normal is a training ground for veteran. It creates issues when it is so much easier as to almost be a different dungeon altogether -- when it doesn't adequately prepare players for vet, it doesn't work for anyone -- as i said in an earlier post.

Rather than easier, normal should actually be a bit harder -- and ZoS should introduce a Casual mode @ delve/public dungeon difficulty as easiest run -- this would satisfy everyone with a measured rewards system.

This is where the conversation came out at previously as a logical conclusion after taking all opinions into account. Everything past that, is circular and unproductive.

zvavi wrote: »

This thread is amazing. The man proposed an alternative for solo players, which is fine.
My points on the discussion:
1. Story mode could be a nice addition to the game. But only if casual players agree it will be instead of another open world story line, AND only after zos fixes their servers. I think that creating it as it is now will only increase lag for all of us who are trying to complete them for challenge.

Why should it have to wait? There are different departments that focus on different aspects of the game. I'm fairly sure the people who work on dungeon creation and balance and the like are different from the people who focus on the game's overall performance and bug fixes. Also why should there have to be a trade-off for getting any sort of causal mode in exchange for an actual story? How would tying a casual mode to dungeons make them lag for people in other instances? That's like saying people doing normal dungeons cause lag for people doing vet and vice versa.

2. The two parts you will get in the dungeon are not part of the main story like you say. They are prologs at best. You will get the main story with the open world missions you do.

Rich said himself in the stream on the 15th that all the DLCs would be tied together via the story. One of the guys over in the feedback thread for Frostvault said the story behind the dungeons is tied to the quest in Elseweyr, but only to a certain extent. He explained it that if you DO do the DLC dungeons, then you have the benefit of knowing how Tharn came to have the Wrathstone halves and stuff and were DIRECTLY INVOLVED in the plot right from the get-go. If you DIDN'T do them, then essentially it was some other nameless adventurer who helped get the tablet halves instead, and instead of feeling like you've been part of the story since the story became available, you're left feeling like you're coming in as second fiddle. As another person put it in that thread, if there was some badass who was able to help get those tablet halves to begin with, why isn't Abnur bringing THEM along on the whole adventure instead of the player, who just sort of wanders in?

No, the point of the story being available to start with Wrathstone is so you FEEL included and relevant in the whole year-long shebang. If that wasn't the main draw and purpose then they wouldn't have tied these dungeons into the story. And it's basic literature; a prologue is still part of the main story, and arguably the most important part. If you don't hook people at the start of a story, they won't stick around for the whole thing.

3. I think that creating story for vDLC dungeon is very important, since they feel more unique and cool than non dlc ones. A lot of players love them, not only for the challenge, but the story as well.

Except the story isn't tied to the vet version of the dungeons? It's tied to the dungeons themselves. And if so many people loved dungeons for their individual stories, I thiiiiiiink we'd see a lot fewer threads about the issue of people having such a hard time getting groups who don't rush them through dungeons left and right.

4. I have run vSCP on my tank more times than I can remember, with pugs. So many times a lot of them with 3 new to the dungeon players. I got tired of repeating mechanics. I have bashed the gragoil and run to the other side of the boss area to free players more than I remember. I never kicked a player. Ever. Left once cause they wouldn't stop go in while I tried to explain mechanics. (I know I know, normal can be hard for some people, but I tried to point out that even players new to the dungeon can complete vet).

Edit: I did kick a player once in vCoS though, but he was attacking boss while I was trying to explain mechanics to the others twice in a row. Never go in before the *** tank.

ayu_fever wrote: »

i main a tank, and enjoy being a healer and i can tell you that dlc dungeons are just too hard on normal.

ZOS should remove them from the random dungeon playlist as they have an extreme high chance of failure in PUGs.
ZOS should swing the mighty nerf bat at these dungeons (NORMAL MODE ONLY!) and bring all of them down several notches in all aspects so they will be on par with base game dungeons.

this isnt a learn to play issue, a git gud issue, or a find friends issue.
sorry snowflakes, but because of reasons those arent always the solutions.

this is an issue for the “little guy.” the CASUALS. most of us care nothing about veteran mode.
we just play the game to have fun, not be stressed out and frustrated or challenged. there is an audience for that and those people have veteran mode and if that is too easy for them, they can read the scroll.

normal should be for cruising.
veteran should be for sweating.
period.

And by normal I mean the same difficulty as the old dungeons and some DLC dungeons on the normal setting. I don’t think it’s fair to have “normal” dlc dungeons be vet difficulty and vet dlc dungeons be trial difficulty. That means only a minority of the player base get to form the tablet and see Abnur Tharne

heaven13 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

...
DLC dungeons are NOT puggable by average casual player, especially most recent ones. THAT is an issue.

Agreed. The question is whether they should be. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but ZoS' decision to involve them with story suggests they agree future dlc dungeons should be.

ZoS regularly revisits oldder content to nerf it. This latest DLC will be no exception. Nor will future dungeons.

Linaleah wrote:

no, not mine. I don't leave a group until its me and one other player and we've been waiting for 10 minutes to back fill, only to have players that come in - leave too.

other common reaction I've seen is people leaving after one wipe.

Sometimes people look at the group composition and decide it's better to drop -- which I think is pathetic personally.

People also leave after 1 wipe when they believe that the group is not good enough to get on (especially on normal).

Just want to say I went into a normal Fang Lair for a pledge the other day. I was healer at cp795 and the Dps was 810. The second dps and tank, both max CP, dropped as soon as they ported in. One said "too long" and the other didn't bother saying anything.