New dungeons better be normal

TimeWizard

I am an experienced end game raider and I pug a lot of dungeons for fun, normal or vet, non-dlc or dlc its whatever. What my take away from all of this has been that the vast majority of the playerbase has no idea how the game mechanics work, no idea what dps even is, half the tanks have never heard of taunting, blocking or add control, I play a healer I end end up healing the group, tanking the boss, and doing 60-70% of group dps. I can carry groups through all non-dlc content, normal or vet, but I can't hard carry the wolfhunter dungeons.

I personally am in favor of harder and harder content being made, I don't think light attack bowtards who hide in the corner should get to feel like they can do content. I just wish that more people that queue for dungeons could actually play.

mairwen85

So... PTS feedback on the subject of dungeon difficulty is getting actual responses from ZOS... And they're asking for increased feedback!? That's great - - sounds like if you want any of this to be taken seriously by the powers that be, thats where that conversation needs to happen, for the best visibility.

Chirru

TimeWizard wrote: »

I am an experienced end game raider and I pug a lot of dungeons for fun, normal or vet, non-dlc or dlc its whatever. What my take away from all of this has been that the vast majority of the playerbase has no idea how the game mechanics work, no idea what dps even is, half the tanks have never heard of taunting, blocking or add control, I play a healer I end end up healing the group, tanking the boss, and doing 60-70% of group dps. I can carry groups through all non-dlc content, normal or vet, but I can't hard carry the wolfhunter dungeons.

I personally am in favor of harder and harder content being made, I don't think light attack bowtards who hide in the corner should get to feel like they can do content. I just wish that more people that queue for dungeons could actually play.

TROLL!

Chirru

mairwen85 wrote: »

So... PTS feedback on the subject of dungeon difficulty is getting actual responses from ZOS... And they're asking for increased feedback!? That's great - - sounds like if you want any of this to be taken seriously by the powers that be, thats where that conversation needs to happen, for the best visibility.

Spot On!

Ranger74z

I might actually buy a dungeon DLC if they were more of a "normal" difficulty.

For now, I just skip them. Problem solved.

TimeWizard

I'm not a troll. I just don't understand how people struggle to hit 5k. Anyone should easily be able to hit 25k+ without much work at all. I want people to be able to do *** and keep getting disappointed.

Also this is a MMO. Group content should be challenging. And group content isn't and shouldn't be built around RPers. If you want to do the group stuff, learn to play, if you don't care to learn, then miss out. EZ

Irfind

TimeWizard wrote: »

I'm not a troll. I just don't understand how people struggle to hit 5k. Anyone should easily be able to hit 25k+ without much work at all.

What ???

5k ok i understand (you can only lightattack 8-12k other even more) but 25k+ and easy ähm no, just no

Casdha

Sorry wrong thread, moved

TimeWizard

End game raiders can pull 55k dps solo on a single 6 mill dummy. Fully buffed in trials number can jump up to 85k+ single target.

Casdha

TimeWizard wrote: »

End game raiders can pull 55k dps solo on a single 6 mill dummy. Fully buffed in trials number can jump up to 85k+ single target.

sorry moved threads on ya, but thanks

TimeWizard

I can pull 15-20k dps on a full healer build, so yes I do get rather perplexed by people inability to outdps or even match my healer's dps output in pugged dungeons.

When I run dugeons ith friends and I actually bring a healer I'll be pulling 20k+ and each of the dps with be hitting 60k+ on most bosses. I don't expect thi from pugs. I just want them to outparse a healer on their dps characters

Irfind

TimeWizard wrote: »

Anyone should easily be able to hit 25k+ without much work at all.

So ? How are end game raiders anyone ?

TimeWizard

Irfind wrote: »

TimeWizard wrote: »

Anyone should easily be able to hit 25k+ without much work at all.

So ? How are end game raiders anyone ?

I said endgame raiders can hit over 50k. I think anyone should be able to hit 25k. I don't see the problem.

Chirru

Irfind wrote: »

TimeWizard wrote: »

I'm not a troll. I just don't understand how people struggle to hit 5k. Anyone should easily be able to hit 25k+ without much work at all.

What ???

5k ok i understand (you can only lightattack 8-12k other even more) but 25k+ and easy ähm no, just no

No...you are not a Troll. You are just bragging. That also is fine...the reasons I wrote Troll is this:

Not everyone is a Super Hero Player like you...

and

Talking down to those who can not do what you can do...

"I just do not understand..." This is your comment... No you do not understand at all.... that is why I wrote Troll.

I am sorry if this offended you. Please except my apology.

Good luck to us all

ruengdet2515

Damn! Shame to me,

i can do only 9-12k dps target dummy and
i can do only 20-25k dps vet trial boss.

Libonotus

TimeWizard wrote: »

Irfind wrote: »

TimeWizard wrote: »

Anyone should easily be able to hit 25k+ without much work at all.

So ? How are end game raiders anyone ?

I said endgame raiders can hit over 50k. I think anyone should be able to hit 25k. I don't see the problem.

Just cause you can do something doesn’t mean everyone else can.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

TimeWizard wrote: »

I am an experienced end game raider and I pug a lot of dungeons for fun, normal or vet, non-dlc or dlc its whatever. What my take away from all of this has been that the vast majority of the playerbase has no idea how the game mechanics work, no idea what dps even is, half the tanks have never heard of taunting, blocking or add control, I play a healer I end end up healing the group, tanking the boss, and doing 60-70% of group dps. I can carry groups through all non-dlc content, normal or vet, but I can't hard carry the wolfhunter dungeons.

I personally am in favor of harder and harder content being made, I don't think light attack bowtards who hide in the corner should get to feel like they can do content. I just wish that more people that queue for dungeons could actually play.

TimeWizard wrote: »

I'm not a troll. I just don't understand how people struggle to hit 5k. Anyone should easily be able to hit 25k+ without much work at all. I want people to be able to do *** and keep getting disappointed.

Also this is a MMO. Group content should be challenging. And group content isn't and shouldn't be built around RPers. If you want to do the group stuff, learn to play, if you don't care to learn, then miss out. EZ

Um, no. Just because YOU can do it and feel entitled to want the game as hardcore as WildStar, doesn’t mean everyone can do it or wants it.

And if you have such a problem with RPers then stop complaining about people who like doing that in the game. This game doesn’t just revolve around you.

MikaHR

TimeWizard wrote: »

I'm not a troll. I just don't understand how people struggle to hit 5k. Anyone should easily be able to hit 25k+ without much work at all. I want people to be able to do *** and keep getting disappointed.

Also this is a MMO. Group content should be challenging. And group content isn't and shouldn't be built around RPers. If you want to do the group stuff, learn to play, if you don't care to learn, then miss out. EZ

Go play Wildstar that is MMO made specifically for you.

Oh wait.

ApostateHobo

TimeWizard wrote: »

I'm not a troll. I just don't understand how people struggle to hit 5k. Anyone should easily be able to hit 25k+ without much work at all. I want people to be able to do *** and keep getting disappointed.

Also this is a MMO. Group content should be challenging. And group content isn't and shouldn't be built around RPers. If you want to do the group stuff, learn to play, if you don't care to learn, then miss out. EZ

You highly overestimate the dps average players can pull. At most I do around 20-25k on my dps characters, which is considered super low here from what I've seen, and I far out dps most players I'm grouped with. Before I got good gear and whatnot most I could do was like 8-12k which seems to be around the average dps of most players, but there are ones that seem to do less than that. This isn't to brag or anything I honestly couldn't care less about how high my or anyone else's dps is, it's just to kind of put into perspective the average player's skill. All I expect from people is for them to not spam snipe or die when a boss farts, but even that doesn't always happen XD

You have to remember this is an Elder Scrolls game, so it draws in a lot of people who have never played an mmo before including myself. This is also an mmoRPG, RPG meaning Role Playing Game. People doing that are to be expected. If you want some hardcore players only mmo I don't think you chose the right game lol

MikaHR

"hardcore players only MMOs" are all dead. Speaks volumes of who are is real MMO playerbase.

hardcores dont really matter and they cant even keep indie games afloat, let alone high budget games. But they are usually ost vocal ones and every developer who mistakenly listened to them didnt fare well.

Just remember "outrage" when WoW introduced raid finder and all the casual/solo improvements, they all claimed they will "leave the game" and that game is somehow "tarnished"....guess what...WoW carried on just as good without them, while "their" games are all dead. And Blizzad didnt do it out of goodness of their heart, they did it because that content was IMMENSLY underused compared to the amount of resources they were spending on it....mening that in their current format it wasnt worth making.

Emmagoldman

TimeWizard wrote: »

I am an experienced end game raider and I pug a lot of dungeons for fun, normal or vet, non-dlc or dlc its whatever. What my take away from all of this has been that the vast majority of the playerbase has no idea how the game mechanics work, no idea what dps even is, half the tanks have never heard of taunting, blocking or add control, I play a healer I end end up healing the group, tanking the boss, and doing 60-70% of group dps. I can carry groups through all non-dlc content, normal or vet, but I can't hard carry the wolfhunter dungeons.

I personally am in favor of harder and harder content being made, I don't think light attack bowtards who hide in the corner should get to feel like they can do content. I just wish that more people that queue for dungeons could actually play.

Exactly. The response is just burn. I think that is why the dlcs aren’t popular. There is also a segment that is hoping to be carried and if they die, leave

mairwen85

@Reistr_the_Unbroken

Jeez, dude... cool down with the WildStar stuff. Practically every other post of yours in every other thread -- we get it, OK!? Your point is clear. It was a tough game: "go hardcore or go home" -- "casuals not welcome beyond this point"; people thought it was too tough, NCSoft killed it for various reasons, one major reason being the under-population of the game due to perceived difficulty and long, arduous levelling. ESO is nowhere near that and caters hugely to the casual player; is it so hard to understand that the hard(er*)core players want to preserve that minimal piece designed for them. Thing is, people are happy to share this space, and it's open to players of all levels as long as they are happy to put the effort in. The grumble is the implication that some players expect more than they're willing to give.

When we actually go over the conversation in this thread, we see many reasons other than

players expect more than they're willing to give

I've tried to capture in several posts what those reasons are, so I (and others) can better understand the trouble. You'll see it's not just about game difficulty either.

Your continuously repeated WildStar comparison forces the conversation into reductio ad absurdum --



-- and breathe

Seriously though, you've worn the comparison as thin as it goes, to the detriment of progressive discussion.

---

*because hardcore is hyperbolic in this game

Cambruin

Why introduce new dungeons and battlegrounds when your group finder is nothing but a major malfunction? Really, how long to get this fixed? Get those guys currently designing new stuff to assist on fixing the old stuff already!

Alinhbo_Tyaka

mairwen85 wrote: »

- snip -

ESO is nowhere near that and caters hugely to the casual player; is it so hard to understand that the hard(er*)core players want to preserve that minimal piece designed for them.

- snip -

The thing is none of the threads like this that I've read or followed ever suggests getting rid of the harder high level content. Yet the high level players frequently act as if any request to better accommodate the average player implies we have to get rid of the hard levels as well. The fact is monetarily the casual and/or average players are the ones who support the game. However the high level players are also needed as they are the players that generate the hype that attracts new players of all types to the game. I think ZOS and most MMO companies do a reasonable job of meeting both groups needs. The player base would be better off if they stopped with the fiefdom mentality and supported the other groups. In the big picture having hard content for the high level players is good for the game but so is content that is accessible to everyone.

karekiz

MikaHR wrote: »

Go play Wildstar that is MMO made specifically for you.

Oh wait.

Everquest is technically a group based game that heavily releases raid/group majority of content. Some classes literally cannot solo past the first zone unless they are well geared with either raid or final tier group based drops.

Its still releasing expansions. So yeah play wildstar card, i'll play the EQ one.

Hint: 40 man raids were a DoA idea. No raiders want to deal with that again unless they have some sort of nostalgia for it.

Aisle9

Irfind wrote: »

TimeWizard wrote: »

I'm not a troll. I just don't understand how people struggle to hit 5k. Anyone should easily be able to hit 25k+ without much work at all.

What ???

5k ok i understand (you can only lightattack 8-12k other even more) but 25k+ and easy ähm no, just no

We are having a guild challenge right now with the following requirements:

CP160 (total: 54 red, 53 green, 53 blue)
Purple cp160 gear, weapons and glyphs included
No DLC dungeons gear - shoulder pieces are allowed, but the head must be vanilla (1+1, e.g. veli + kra'gh)
No Trial gear (siroria, relequen, advancing yokeda, etc)
No Arena gear (maeltrom, master, black rose)
No spell power/weapon power potions (essence of stamina/magicka for sustain are allowed)
No external fracture/breach
No external help (orbs, worm)
On a sorc (stamina or magicka)

I'm stuck at 23.5k on a petsorc, gonna give it another shot tomorrow.
Friend went on a stamsorc and did this:





Is it tight ? Yes, it is, but here's a number of things you can do to make it easier:
1) Gold your weapons (huge power spike for relatively low cost)
2) Use better stuff (trial gear, Vicious Ophidian or Infallible Aether are super easy to farm and very good starting points)
3) Use spell power/weapon power potions
4) Gring CP and get up to 300 - 400

25k is not that hard to achieve.

Sure it takes a bit of practice, and maybe it's not as easy as walking, but it's not that hard.

TimeWizard

I have nothng against RPers in this game. I do have something agaist RPers who choose to do group content without even trying to optimize their setup. I also have something against the people who wear what they want and build what they want because the can do what they want but aren't able to fulfill their role in group content. I used to be one of those people. Eventually I found out what I was doing wrong and searched out what the right gear/skills/attributes/cp wear for my class and role. I remember my first dps test. It was back in Shadows of the Hist. I could barely pull 12k in a fully raid buffed test. It took someone helping me for five minutes to push that number up to 25k, the minumum requirement in that guild to do vet trials. That was back when 40k raid buffed was top tier. I don't hate people for not knowing how to do dps, I hate people for not trying.

Arunei

It astounds me how many people are posting in this thread going on about people 'whinging for dungeons to be made easier' when the thread is talking about making the specific DLC dungeons tied to a year-long story easier for people who might normally have problems with DLC dungeons, not making normal DLC dungeons overall easier. Seriously, is reading comprehension that hard of a skill for people these days?

ZOS has never tied an overarching story line to previous DLC dungeons. The simple fact of the matter is if you don't do these dungeons, you're missing out on part of the story for Elseweyr. This was never a problem before because it's never been done before. Everyone on here posting about how people *should* be able to hit x or y DPS or *should* be able to find groups that won't rush them through content need to take something basic into consideration: not every person who plays this game is you. Just because you can do it doesn't mean everyone can. Do people not take into consideration things like lag b/c of internet providers, or slow reaction time because of possible disability? Not everyone is capable of doing this or that; if they were, threads like this wouldn't even exist.

And beyond that, why are people complaining about others wanting normal versions of DLC dungeons to be easier, when Vet and HM versions exist for the people who can do the harder content? How would normal being made more accessible to more people hurt any of you who only want the 'harder content' when it's not that harder content people are asking to be toned down?

If ZOS wants to tie DLC dungeons to overarching plots like this, they can't just keep ramping up the difficulty for them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting content tied to a new chapter to be something they can actually complete. And before anyone tries to say anything, I may not be the best player, but I've got a solidly built tank, a pretty good healer (tho she still needs her Olorime stuff), and several DPS chars who can hit 30k fairly easily. I've done a lot of the DLC dungeons on normal and several on Vet (Vet versions of HotR dungeons can die in a fire x__x). I've got friends I can ask to do these dungeons with me who are also extremely skilled in their roles. Am I a decent player? Sure. Do I think everyone else should be able to play on my level (even though it's not very high)? Absolutely not, b/c their circumstances and abilities may vary wildly from mine for any given reason.

Mr_Walker

Arunei wrote: »

It astounds me how many people are posting in this thread going on about people 'whinging for dungeons to be made easier' when the thread is talking about making the specific DLC dungeons tied to a year-long story easier for people who might normally have problems with DLC dungeons, not making normal DLC dungeons overall easier. Seriously, is reading comprehension that hard of a skill for people these days?

It's the internet generation.

How it goes is

- read first 3-4 words of title
- invent something in your head to be outraged about
- open thread
- express outrage

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Arunei wrote: »

It astounds me how many people are posting in this thread going on about people 'whinging for dungeons to be made easier' when the thread is talking about making the specific DLC dungeons tied to a year-long story easier for people who might normally have problems with DLC dungeons, not making normal DLC dungeons overall easier. Seriously, is reading comprehension that hard of a skill for people these days?

ZOS has never tied an overarching story line to previous DLC dungeons. The simple fact of the matter is if you don't do these dungeons, you're missing out on part of the story for Elseweyr. This was never a problem before because it's never been done before. Everyone on here posting about how people *should* be able to hit x or y DPS or *should* be able to find groups that won't rush them through content need to take something basic into consideration: not every person who plays this game is you. Just because you can do it doesn't mean everyone can. Do people not take into consideration things like lag b/c of internet providers, or slow reaction time because of possible disability? Not everyone is capable of doing this or that; if they were, threads like this wouldn't even exist.

And beyond that, why are people complaining about others wanting normal versions of DLC dungeons to be easier, when Vet and HM versions exist for the people who can do the harder content? How would normal being made more accessible to more people hurt any of you who only want the 'harder content' when it's not that harder content people are asking to be toned down?

If ZOS wants to tie DLC dungeons to overarching plots like this, they can't just keep ramping up the difficulty for them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting content tied to a new chapter to be something they can actually complete. And before anyone tries to say anything, I may not be the best player, but I've got a solidly built tank, a pretty good healer (tho she still needs her Olorime stuff), and several DPS chars who can hit 30k fairly easily. I've done a lot of the DLC dungeons on normal and several on Vet (Vet versions of HotR dungeons can die in a fire x__x). I've got friends I can ask to do these dungeons with me who are also extremely skilled in their roles. Am I a decent player? Sure. Do I think everyone else should be able to play on my level (even though it's not very high)? Absolutely not, b/c their circumstances and abilities may vary wildly from mine for any given reason.

This ^ is 100% true
some people probably didn’t read and just assumed the thread was about taking away the regular dungeons or something, and when people explain to them multiple times they still don’t get the point