New dungeons better be normal

SiAScORCH · January 2019

TiaFrye wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

DLC dungeons aren't hard. If you have 3 other competent people it's easy. I've done no death and speed runs on all the DLC. I quit playing in June of 2016 and came back October of 2018. I adapted perfectly fine.

You - it's you. Stop "you"ing. Hell, what's a catwalk to you may be not like that for any other person. For an average person you need 2 mil gold to find these "3 other competent people", if u catch my meaning. Competent people usually have premade groups with people they trust and know, they don't want the 5th wheel.
Before Season of Dragon questers was not forced by devs into group content but now it's the case. Just because they desperately want questers to buy dungeons! And they do sold badly. None of CE of dungeon dlcs was never seen back at the crownstore. And if DLC dungeons continue to become more challenging for this small amount of people who like to overcome challenges, can overcome them, for their rest time, a lot of customers will not be happy. They ignored dungeons before, some will rage quit now or lower their loyalty to ZOS. And loyalty brings money. No money - servers will be shut down. It's as simple as that.

There was at least 3 threads about people being scared and confused and I saw only one person in who's offering help. Others will only mock you with "git good", "read the mechanics", "stop crying", "find the good group". It's not quite encouraging when someone gets shamed for their simple desire to continue the story they've been in for a long time.

I queue up solo a lot though because if I'm on when I get off of work in the am a lot of my friends aren't on. I just either vote kick the dps if they're pulling low number or I'll leave. I've also queued up for one of the pledges and ended up doing the vet DLC pledge, but we all got on my discord. It's possible, I'm not saying it's easy but it's vet so mechanics and stuff make it more challenging. I get what you're saying though. You can also find people in guild to do the vet dlc pledges with. Healing and Tanking are easier than having to rely on DPS, but in the end it's nice to have at least one ranged DPS. A lot of the dlc dungeons require interrupt.

If you're PC NA and you can pull good dps number, at least 30 then I'll happily do some vet dlc dungeons with you as long as you're okay with using discord.

FlyingSwan · January 2019

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

All the dungeons out now are easy enough. It's all about learning and understanding mechanics.

For vet DLC dungeons I have simple requirements:

Discord required.
CP500+
Proper build/gear, 25-30k DPS

I've ran them all, no issues the most important thing is having people communicate and actually listen.

Not everyone wants to talk with strangers.

I get that, but I don't trust random people to actually know mechanics and listen. It's much easier to get them to comprehend when you're telling it in their ear vs having to trust they read chat.

talking usually refers to both voice AND text chat. some people sometimes would just rather play on their own.

Sure, and that's why you run into so many issues on vet DLC dungeons. I on the other hand have not.

actualy, i run into issues PUGGING them on NORMAL. WHILE communicating. text is still communication.

not everyone likes to play in a group.

LOL, and those people bought an MMO because....? I suppose the entire game design is wrong. it can't be that a few people are too dim to realise than a massively multiplayer game might just require playing with other players.

I seriously wonder how such people manage to get out of bed without somehow inflicting a mortal injury on themselves.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · January 2019

TiaFrye wrote: »

DLC dungeons are not easy. If you happen to have even one DD in your group who's dps lower than average, you're screwed. But it's not only that. Mechanics gets complicated with each DLC dungeon released. I'm not a fan, but sometimes I have to run these. And in Scalecaller peak, aside from it being tricky with all the poison, I perfectly understand what game wants me to do. In Moon Hunter Keep even effects that showing during the fight are sometimes misleading. When I'd see something crawling on me underground, I will roll dodge without a second though. But when I see vines all over me I automatically trough that I'm already screwed and I will try to break free and you don't need to break free, you need to roll! How crazy is that? I haven't get further than white werewolf with any group I've got, not matter how many times I've read what to do.
Such things keep me away from DLC dungeons.

I understand that s o m e people want challenge, and devs want to show off their skills at making dungeons, but please, PLEASE, for Christ's sake keep normal NORMAL. Even like vanilla II normal, it will be far better than we have now. People won't buy DLC that they can't beat. Putting a story behind a dungeon and forcing players to run them will work for a very small amount of general audience, but most of us boycott it right away.

I already regret pre-ordering the Elsweyr DLC if I’m going to be forced to do a dungeon or whatever just to get rushed trying to understand the story.

zaria · January 2019

TiaFrye wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

DLC dungeons aren't hard. If you have 3 other competent people it's easy. I've done no death and speed runs on all the DLC. I quit playing in June of 2016 and came back October of 2018. I adapted perfectly fine.

You - it's you. Stop "you"ing. Hell, what's a catwalk to you may be not like that for any other person. For an average person you need 2 mil gold to find these "3 other competent people", if u catch my meaning. Competent people usually have premade groups with people they trust and know, they don't want the 5th wheel.
Before Season of Dragon questers was not forced by devs into group content but now it's the case. Just because they desperately want questers to buy dungeons! And they do sold badly. None of CE of dungeon dlcs was never seen back at the crownstore. And if DLC dungeons continue to become more challenging for this small amount of people who like to overcome challenges, can overcome them, for their rest time, a lot of customers will not be happy. They ignored dungeons before, some will rage quit now or lower their loyalty to ZOS. And loyalty brings money. No money - servers will be shut down. It's as simple as that.

There was at least 3 threads about people being scared and confused and I saw only one person in who's offering help. Others will only mock you with "git good", "read the mechanics", "stop crying", "find the good group". It's not quite encouraging when someone gets shamed for their simple desire to continue the story they've been in for a long time.

The vet dlc dungeons are fine, they are challenging as they should be, for most players who run the other vet dungeons they are kind of progression stuff until you learn mechanics.
The dlc normals are fine but starting to get a bit on the hard side with the two last. Normal dungeons should not be harder than veteran dungeons, yes they can have more mechanics.

The problem is groups, if unlucky you get bad groups, yes you can fail on nBC2, keeper Indril is an dps check same with the daedrot span on last boss. No this is not hard on veteran, even if HM can be in weak groups.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · January 2019

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

All the dungeons out now are easy enough. It's all about learning and understanding mechanics.

For vet DLC dungeons I have simple requirements:

Discord required.
CP500+
Proper build/gear, 25-30k DPS

I've ran them all, no issues the most important thing is having people communicate and actually listen.

Not everyone wants to talk with strangers.

I get that, but I don't trust random people to actually know mechanics and listen. It's much easier to get them to comprehend when you're telling it in their ear vs having to trust they read chat.

talking usually refers to both voice AND text chat. some people sometimes would just rather play on their own.

Sure, and that's why you run into so many issues on vet DLC dungeons. I on the other hand have not.

actualy, i run into issues PUGGING them on NORMAL. WHILE communicating. text is still communication.

not everyone likes to play in a group.

LOL, and those people bought an MMO because....? I suppose the entire game design is wrong. it can't be that a few people are too dim to realise than a massively multiplayer game might just require playing with other players.

I seriously wonder how such people manage to get out of bed without somehow inflicting a mortal injury on themselves.

They bought it because it was an Elder Scrolls title, WHICH BY THE WAY was single player for years.

Scarpion · January 2019

Without difficult content the game loses players. Hopefully these dungeons are as difficult as the most recent dungeons, gives newer players something to practice and aim to complete, gives the older players some new achievements to collect, it's a win/win.

TiaFrye · January 2019

FlyingSwan wrote: »

LOL, and those people bought an MMO because....? I suppose the entire game design is wrong. it can't be that a few people are too dim to realise than a massively multiplayer game might just require playing with other players.

I seriously wonder how such people manage to get out of bed without somehow inflicting a mortal injury on themselves.

These people probably bought this game because it's TES? Is that a crime nowdays? What else you wanna shame them for or assume about them?

TiaFrye · January 2019

zaria wrote: »

The vet dlc dungeons are fine, they are challenging as they should be, for most players who run the other vet dungeons they are kind of progression stuff until you learn mechanics.
The dlc normals are fine but starting to get a bit on the hard side with the two last. Normal dungeons should not be harder than veteran dungeons, yes they can have more mechanics.

The problem is groups, if unlucky you get bad groups, yes you can fail on nBC2, keeper Indril is an dps check same with the daedrot span on last boss. No this is not hard on veteran, even if HM can be in weak groups.

Top part is exactly what I was saying, thank you

(it might have confused someone, because English ism't my main, so it's always good when other people re-phrase). I'm not against vet or hm, not my cup of tea, but some people like it and i'm happy for them!
But increasing vet will affect normals (I think). I don't know how dungeons are developed. But with latest couple it seemed the case. Vet hits harder and mobs are thicker, but mechanics stays the same. Confusing, hard and unforgiving. And devs seems to forgot about that doing normal version. If you have one-hits in vet, it should not instant kill on normal, but apparently it does.

Linaleah · January 2019

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

All the dungeons out now are easy enough. It's all about learning and understanding mechanics.

For vet DLC dungeons I have simple requirements:

Discord required.
CP500+
Proper build/gear, 25-30k DPS

I've ran them all, no issues the most important thing is having people communicate and actually listen.

Not everyone wants to talk with strangers.

I get that, but I don't trust random people to actually know mechanics and listen. It's much easier to get them to comprehend when you're telling it in their ear vs having to trust they read chat.

talking usually refers to both voice AND text chat. some people sometimes would just rather play on their own.

Sure, and that's why you run into so many issues on vet DLC dungeons. I on the other hand have not.

actualy, i run into issues PUGGING them on NORMAL. WHILE communicating. text is still communication.

every single person who goes "this dungeons are easy" is either playing with a premade group where the know exactly how well their mates are performing WHILE excluding people who are in their view underperforming (which is like... majority of ESO population) and/or are such high performers that they can quite literally compensate for under performing group members.

the rest of us make do with whoever we get, and/or people we like to play with, but that are NOT god's gift to gaming. and herein lays a problem. even on normal DLC dungeons are very VERY unforgiving to such people. forger vet for a moment. NORMAL.

so fine. half the DLC's are useless to us despite a fair chunk of us paying for acess to them via ps plus - so that's half the updates that we don't get to do much with, unless we get lucky and/or have someone take pity on us. but now. NOW they are actualy part of the overreaching story art.

please. for the love of god. STOP with "git gud" just.. stop. its not happening. for a moment instead... just try. just a little bit, TRY to maybe see it from a perspective of someone who is NOT you and doesn't play like you do.

and btw, when I say people who would rather not talk to others, I mean.. they would rather NOT GROUP WITH OTHERS AT ALL.

not everyone likes to play in a group.

P.S. btw... consider for a moment. just for a moment, that its NOT the lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k.

It is lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k. I can pull 15k on a PvP toon in PvE content and that's not even with proper gear. Research means knowing your rotation, build and gear. Thus lack of rotation = bad dps.

sigh. I mean I'm not surprised that you are not getting it, but.. you are not getting it. knowing rotation =/= being able to execute it. especially in ESO that doesn't have tab targeting, has this mess of a system called LA weaving/animation canceling in addition to bar swapping. oh and latency. latency messes you up in this game in a way that it doesn't in other mmos...

I just... there is this russian saying that roughly translates as "someone with full belly will never understand someone who is starving" I feel like it applies here.

and you know the irony here, is for all this "you have to be social, its an MMO" admonitions from all these people, you all are also perfectly ok with kicking people out of groups if they don;'t perform to your specifications, forgetting that those people are PEOPLE, they are someone's friends, they are probably people in this thread and others like it. they could be (and often are) perfectly nice people that just happen not to be god's gift to gaming. off with their heads! /slam the kick button

Linaleah · January 2019

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

All the dungeons out now are easy enough. It's all about learning and understanding mechanics.

For vet DLC dungeons I have simple requirements:

Discord required.
CP500+
Proper build/gear, 25-30k DPS

I've ran them all, no issues the most important thing is having people communicate and actually listen.

Not everyone wants to talk with strangers.

I get that, but I don't trust random people to actually know mechanics and listen. It's much easier to get them to comprehend when you're telling it in their ear vs having to trust they read chat.

talking usually refers to both voice AND text chat. some people sometimes would just rather play on their own.

Sure, and that's why you run into so many issues on vet DLC dungeons. I on the other hand have not.

actualy, i run into issues PUGGING them on NORMAL. WHILE communicating. text is still communication.

not everyone likes to play in a group.

LOL, and those people bought an MMO because....? I suppose the entire game design is wrong. it can't be that a few people are too dim to realise than a massively multiplayer game might just require playing with other players.

I seriously wonder how such people manage to get out of bed without somehow inflicting a mortal injury on themselves.

those people are playing ELDER SCROLLS. those people might enjoy playing solo while talking exclusively to their friends without being grouped with them. MMOs hasn't REQUIRED you to play with other people for every little thing in over 15 years. in fact, when MMO's switched from "must group for everything" to need to group for a few things, but most things can be done solo, or in informal groups - was when genre exploded and grew.

mairwen85 · January 2019

TiaFrye wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

The vet dlc dungeons are fine, they are challenging as they should be, for most players who run the other vet dungeons they are kind of progression stuff until you learn mechanics.
The dlc normals are fine but starting to get a bit on the hard side with the two last. Normal dungeons should not be harder than veteran dungeons, yes they can have more mechanics.

The problem is groups, if unlucky you get bad groups, yes you can fail on nBC2, keeper Indril is an dps check same with the daedrot span on last boss. No this is not hard on veteran, even if HM can be in weak groups.

Top part is exactly what I was saying, thank you (it might have confused someone, because English ism't my main, so it's always good when other people re-phrase). I'm not against vet or hm, not my cup of tea, but some people like it and i'm happy for them!
But increasing vet will affect normals (I think). I don't know how dungeons are developed. But with latest couple it seemed the case. Vet hits harder and mobs are thicker, but mechanics stays the same. Confusing, hard and unforgiving. And devs seems to forgot about that doing normal version. If you have one-hits in vet, it should not instant kill on normal, but apparently it does.

Just to clarify, is this the main complaint? DLC Normals have more mechanics, and mobs can one-shot?

No matter the mechanics, normal is more forgiving than vet. But at the same time the mechanics and tolerances have matured by design. Compare 'Bone Menagerie' nFang Lair vs vFang Lair; it's a completely different boss fight in many ways -- or Archivist Ernarde in nMHK vs vMHK; the fight is mirrored in both modes, but is far stricter in vet, far less room for mistakes. While nFL doesn't prepare players for vFL, MHK does. That's the direction I'd like to see the game take with dungeon design. More mechanic driven, weaker mobs and bosses with higher mech tolerances in normal, while much tighter in vet.

I agree that one-shot mechs have no place in normal, but at the same time, it'll learn players to roll/block. Big headache for my healer is players who stand in stupid and never get out of the way of things, or don't know there is a button for block. Normal dungeons should, even if mobs and bosses are weaker, be representative of the wider gameplay. They should prepare players for the vet versions of the same -- this includes healing, dealing damage, taunting, mitigation, and defensive manoeuvres. How would you improve otherwise? When people say 'git gud' or L2P, this is what they mean -- although not the most constructive way to voice it, and rather derogatory.

Here's an example. I ended up on vet Fungal Grotto 2 on sunday... I'd queued a random as healer, dungeon was already started, the group was at Gamyne Bandu. They'd been there for 20 minutes I was told on arrival. After 1st run at the boss I saw why, when chained no one was killing the adds, and we got chained 1 at a time = wipe. Quick chat explains the deal -- next run, chains up, chained player dies because dps is stupid low. Wipe. Next run, I (as healer) was able to kill the one add needed to free the other player, and due to dodge rolling the telegraphed purple orb she throws that gets you chained, I was able to avoid it -- ended up killing the boss, freeing players, and healing the party. I dropped immediately after. nFG2 does not prepare players for vFG2 -- no non DLC dungeon does. They lull players into a false sense of security that is rudely smashed to smithereens when they venture beyond the safety of them.

If anything, ZoS should increase the difficulty of non dlc normals.

but I'm OK with it if they don't.

witchdoctor · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

If anything, ZoS should increase the difficulty of non dlc normals. but I'm OK with it if they don't.

I'm almost OK with that.

I agree, the game needs exponential progression. Overland, to delve, to public dungeon, and so on.

I disagree that the dungeons have to be on a linear path of exponential progression. I.E., the newest doesn't have to be the hardest.

The 3 Undaunted should not be 2 easier ones, and one DLC, but rather each has a tier of difficulty. Maj has the easy ones, and Ugarlag has the hardest. If this means they give a new dungeon to Maj for the story, that's fine. (May also solve the Ugarlag will have too many dungeons scenario people bring up every so often).

EDIT: if they did give a Maj-esque dungeon, then they'd have to make sure that raid, with each boss a HM, will keep the hardcore occupied.

TiaFrye · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

Just to clarify, is this the main complaint? DLC Normals have more mechanics, and mobs can one-shot?

I agree that one-shot mechs have no place in normal, but at the same time, it'll learn players to roll/block. Big headache for my healer is players who stand in stupid and never get out of the way of things, or don't know there is a button for block. Normal dungeons should, even if mobs and bosses are weaker, be representative of the wider gameplay. They should prepare players for the vet versions of the same -- this includes healing, dealing damage, taunting, mitigation, and defensive manoeuvres.

No matter the mechanics, normal is more forgiving than vet. But at the same time the mechanics and tolerances have matured by design. Compare 'Bone Menagerie' nFang Lair vs vFang Lair; it's a completely different boss fight in many ways -- or Archivist Ernarde in nMHK vs vMHK; the fight is mirrored in both modes, but is far stricter in vet, far less room for mistakes. While nFL doesn't prepare players for vFL, MHK does. That's the direction I'd like to see the game take with dungeon design. More mechanic driven, weaker mobs and bosses with higher mech tolerances in normal, while much tighter in vet.

As a healer myself I can't agree more on people who stand on AOE or - even better! - stand on AOE behind my back - it's pain.

And I can't say about the others, maybe it's different for them, but for me, person who never had much problems with DLC normals before, MHK was a stab to my stomach. For example - I puged and got random Falkreath on Undaunted event, with an average group, our healer preformed not that good, I swapped a few skills on my dps toon and we did just fine, after first struggle at necromancers at the middle. I don't do vet. Unless my friends ask me to help them with it, because I don't really want to spend my rest time not resting, you know? I'm aware that different people rest different. But I don't want to prepare myself to vet in normals, I want to run normal dungeon for story, armor, with my normie friends, or strangers I can help to make it through, you know? Like it was before. I'm also aware that preparing to vet on normal might be easier for people who really want their HM goodies, but... Do everything must be about them? Everything about that new direction is frustrating for a player who has 0 interest in high-end group content. It's not even about the group part, as I mentioned above.

mairwen85 · January 2019

witchdoctor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

If anything, ZoS should increase the difficulty of non dlc normals. but I'm OK with it if they don't.

I'm almost OK with that.

I agree, the game needs exponential progression. Overland, to delve, to public dungeon, and so on.

I disagree that the dungeons have to be on a linear path of exponential progression. I.E., the newest doesn't have to be the hardest.

The 3 Undaunted should not be 2 easier ones, and one DLC, but rather each has a tier of difficulty. Maj has the easy ones, and Ugarlag has the hardest. If this means they give a new dungeon to Maj for the story, that's fine. (May also solve the Ugarlag will have too many dungeons scenario people bring up every so often).

That ZoS only revisits older content to nerf it is partially to blame here.

I get what you're saying and I am leaning somewhat to agree, but we have to understand that dungeon design and ethos has matured with the development team, player base and contextual game content.

Perhaps what is needed is a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range? Would that improve the dungeon experience?

witchdoctor · January 2019

I hate to say it, but that way leads to SWTOR's no-role, no-risk, no-challenge dungeons (flash points) that they came up with partway through its life. Ugh, awful. I guess it is an option so long as they continue to make actual group-oriented content.

I do agree that the DLCs showcase ESO's growth in dungeons.

I like em.

I also understand some people's concern of being locked out.

mairwen85 · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

... a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range ...

I personally don't believe this would improve the scenario either. If anything it provides more safety, and less requirement -- essentially gimping the player from ever learning to tackle the actual content.

witchdoctor wrote: »

I hate to say it, but that way leads to SWTOR's no-role, no-risk, no-challenge dungeons (flash points) that they came up with partway through its life. Ugh, awful. I guess it is an option so long as they continue to make actual group-oriented content.

I do agree that the DLCs showcase ESO's growth in dungeons.

I like em.

I also understand some people's concern of being locked out.

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Also, let's not forget that ZoS expects people to buy these things -- they're dropping a new Chapter on us which will have the standard content, overland, world bosses, delves, etc, etc; only this time they're linking on going dlc to the main quest arc. They really won't make it so that the largest portion of the customer base is unable to use it, hence not buy it. Or worse, stop subscribing because content doesn't consider them. There is instead motivation to deliver dungeons in a way that attracts players who usually steer clear; you can bet ZoS has a means to do it in a way which won't exclude anyone in this thread.

Linaleah · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

... a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range ...

I personally don't believe this would improve the scenario either. If anything it provides more safety, and less requirement -- essentially gimping the player from ever learning to tackle the actual content.

witchdoctor wrote: »

I hate to say it, but that way leads to SWTOR's no-role, no-risk, no-challenge dungeons (flash points) that they came up with partway through its life. Ugh, awful. I guess it is an option so long as they continue to make actual group-oriented content.

I do agree that the DLCs showcase ESO's growth in dungeons.

I like em.

I also understand some people's concern of being locked out.

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Also, let's not forget that ZoS expects people to buy these things -- they're dropping a new Chapter on us which will have the standard content, overland, world bosses, delves, etc, etc; only this time they're linking on going dlc to the main quest arc. They really won't make it so that the largest portion of the customer base is unable to use it, hence not buy it. Or worse, stop subscribing because content doesn't consider them. There is instead motivation to deliver dungeons in a way that attracts players who usually steer clear; you can bet ZoS has a means to do it in a way which won't exclude anyone in this thread.

imagine for a moment... that these people don't want to learn to tackle "actualy" content in a first place. that its NOT what they play this game for?

and so far, if last year's dungeon releases are any indication. they don't seem to get that they are excluding a large portion of their subscribers with ever ramping up dungeon difficulty.

witchdoctor · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Oh, I agree. I understand the concern they may have, but I don't think its actually that difficult to overcome.

mairwen85 · January 2019

witchdoctor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Oh, I agree. I understand the concern they may have, but I don't think its actually that difficult to overcome.

Me neither.

Linaleah wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

... a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range ...

I personally don't believe this would improve the scenario either. If anything it provides more safety, and less requirement -- essentially gimping the player from ever learning to tackle the actual content.

witchdoctor wrote: »

I hate to say it, but that way leads to SWTOR's no-role, no-risk, no-challenge dungeons (flash points) that they came up with partway through its life. Ugh, awful. I guess it is an option so long as they continue to make actual group-oriented content.

I do agree that the DLCs showcase ESO's growth in dungeons.

I like em.

I also understand some people's concern of being locked out.

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Also, let's not forget that ZoS expects people to buy these things -- they're dropping a new Chapter on us which will have the standard content, overland, world bosses, delves, etc, etc; only this time they're linking on going dlc to the main quest arc. They really won't make it so that the largest portion of the customer base is unable to use it, hence not buy it. Or worse, stop subscribing because content doesn't consider them. There is instead motivation to deliver dungeons in a way that attracts players who usually steer clear; you can bet ZoS has a means to do it in a way which won't exclude anyone in this thread.

imagine for a moment... that these people don't want to learn to tackle "actualy" content in a first place. that its NOT what they play this game for?

and so far, if last year's dungeon releases are any indication. they don't seem to get that they are excluding a large portion of their subscribers with ever ramping up dungeon difficulty.

Let's imagine for a moment I posted a suggested solution then. Or that I posted an opinion before that. See, that's what we do in a discussion, we offer views and opinions, we weigh them up and reply in agreement or counterpoint. We offer alternatives, ideas and solutions. What do you think? Would my suggestion suit you? Do you have a better alternative?

Edited to add:

mairwen85 wrote: »

Just to clarify, is this the main complaint? DLC Normals have more mechanics, and mobs can one-shot?

Because I genuinely want to know.

Linaleah · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Oh, I agree. I understand the concern they may have, but I don't think its actually that difficult to overcome.

Me neither.

Linaleah wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

... a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range ...

I personally don't believe this would improve the scenario either. If anything it provides more safety, and less requirement -- essentially gimping the player from ever learning to tackle the actual content.

witchdoctor wrote: »

I hate to say it, but that way leads to SWTOR's no-role, no-risk, no-challenge dungeons (flash points) that they came up with partway through its life. Ugh, awful. I guess it is an option so long as they continue to make actual group-oriented content.

I do agree that the DLCs showcase ESO's growth in dungeons.

I like em.

I also understand some people's concern of being locked out.

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Also, let's not forget that ZoS expects people to buy these things -- they're dropping a new Chapter on us which will have the standard content, overland, world bosses, delves, etc, etc; only this time they're linking on going dlc to the main quest arc. They really won't make it so that the largest portion of the customer base is unable to use it, hence not buy it. Or worse, stop subscribing because content doesn't consider them. There is instead motivation to deliver dungeons in a way that attracts players who usually steer clear; you can bet ZoS has a means to do it in a way which won't exclude anyone in this thread.

imagine for a moment... that these people don't want to learn to tackle "actualy" content in a first place. that its NOT what they play this game for?

and so far, if last year's dungeon releases are any indication. they don't seem to get that they are excluding a large portion of their subscribers with ever ramping up dungeon difficulty.

Let's imagine for a moment I posted a suggested solution then. Or that I posted an opinion before that. See, that's what we do in a discussion, we offer views and opinions, we weight them up and reply in agreement or counterpoint. We offer alternatives, ideas and solutions. What do you think? Would my suggestion suit you? Do you have a better alternative?

which solution or suggestion would that be. so far, I'm only seeing variations of " git gud" you don't think making normal dungeons easier/more forgiving is a good idea, you don't think solo mode is a good idea, what compromise or solution are you offering that is ACTUAL compromise, or solution? your assumption that ZoS knows how to make dungeons more accessible? what does it matter if they are not actualy doing that? what does it matter if their modus operandi seems to be to make dungeons LESS forgiving, even on normal? what does it matter when given how difficult it is to do the dungeon quests in a group is (due to people rushing, people finishing the conversations before you can, so it finishes for you before you are actualy done, assuming they don't just sprint past in a first place), when they ignore all the dungeon quest issues and instead hide parts of OVERREACHING STORY behind them?

the only suggestion IMO that will work to cover all the bases is solo mode. that way you can still keep your normal dungeons with their ever escalating difficulty as "training grounds for actual content" without locking out players who have no interest in "actual content"

edited - one shots are a huge problem yes, becasue it makes mechanics unforgiving, but even without one shots its just... too much. these places are beyond a stressful annoying drag, becasue they assume that you will do at least 20k dps apparently... while throwing players under lvl 50 into it who can't even hit 10k.

witchdoctor · January 2019

Linaleah wrote: »

and so far, if last year's dungeon releases are any indication. they don't seem to get that they are excluding a large portion of their subscribers with ever ramping up dungeon difficulty.

I'm just going to say, I highly suspect ZOS has the metrics to show how many DLC dungeons are started and completed.

Linaleah · January 2019

witchdoctor wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

and so far, if last year's dungeon releases are any indication. they don't seem to get that they are excluding a large portion of their subscribers with ever ramping up dungeon difficulty.

I'm just going to say, I highly suspect ZOS has the metrics to show how many DLC dungeons are started and completed.

given that typical reaction to DLC dungeon popping up in a random groupfinder, especially the wolfhunter - is to leave immediately. i wonder just how much they pay attention to those metrics.

mairwen85 · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

If anything, ZoS should increase the difficulty of non dlc normals. but I'm OK with it if they don't.

I'm almost OK with that.

I agree, the game needs exponential progression. Overland, to delve, to public dungeon, and so on.

I disagree that the dungeons have to be on a linear path of exponential progression. I.E., the newest doesn't have to be the hardest.

The 3 Undaunted should not be 2 easier ones, and one DLC, but rather each has a tier of difficulty. Maj has the easy ones, and Ugarlag has the hardest. If this means they give a new dungeon to Maj for the story, that's fine. (May also solve the Ugarlag will have too many dungeons scenario people bring up every so often).

That ZoS only revisits older content to nerf it is partially to blame here.

I get what you're saying and I am leaning somewhat to agree, but we have to understand that dungeon design and ethos has matured with the development team, player base and contextual game content.

Perhaps what is needed is a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range? Would that improve the dungeon experience?

Linaleah wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Oh, I agree. I understand the concern they may have, but I don't think its actually that difficult to overcome.

Me neither.

Linaleah wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

... a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range ...

I personally don't believe this would improve the scenario either. If anything it provides more safety, and less requirement -- essentially gimping the player from ever learning to tackle the actual content.

witchdoctor wrote: »

I hate to say it, but that way leads to SWTOR's no-role, no-risk, no-challenge dungeons (flash points) that they came up with partway through its life. Ugh, awful. I guess it is an option so long as they continue to make actual group-oriented content.

I do agree that the DLCs showcase ESO's growth in dungeons.

I like em.

I also understand some people's concern of being locked out.

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Also, let's not forget that ZoS expects people to buy these things -- they're dropping a new Chapter on us which will have the standard content, overland, world bosses, delves, etc, etc; only this time they're linking on going dlc to the main quest arc. They really won't make it so that the largest portion of the customer base is unable to use it, hence not buy it. Or worse, stop subscribing because content doesn't consider them. There is instead motivation to deliver dungeons in a way that attracts players who usually steer clear; you can bet ZoS has a means to do it in a way which won't exclude anyone in this thread.

imagine for a moment... that these people don't want to learn to tackle "actualy" content in a first place. that its NOT what they play this game for?

and so far, if last year's dungeon releases are any indication. they don't seem to get that they are excluding a large portion of their subscribers with ever ramping up dungeon difficulty.

Let's imagine for a moment I posted a suggested solution then. Or that I posted an opinion before that. See, that's what we do in a discussion, we offer views and opinions, we weight them up and reply in agreement or counterpoint. We offer alternatives, ideas and solutions. What do you think? Would my suggestion suit you? Do you have a better alternative?

which solution or suggestion would that be. so far, I'm only seeing variations of " git gud" you don't think making normal dungeons easier/more forgiving is a good idea, you don't think solo mode is a good idea, what compromise or solution are you offering that is ACTUAL compromise, or solution? your assumption that ZoS knows how to make dungeons more accessible? what does it matter if they are not actualy doing that? what does it matter if their modus operandi seems to be to make dungeons LESS forgiving, even on normal? what does it matter when given how difficult it is to do the dungeon quests in a group is (due to people rushing, people finishing the conversations before you can, so it finishes for you before you are actualy done, assuming they don't just sprint past in a first place), when they ignore all the dungeon quest issues and instead hide parts of OVERREACHING STORY behind them?

the only suggestion IMO that will work to cover all the bases is solo mode. that way you can still keep your normal dungeons with their ever escalating difficulty as "training grounds for actual content" without locking out players who have no interest in "actual content"

mairwen85 wrote: »

Perhaps what is needed is a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range? Would that improve the dungeon experience?

Btw, I am in favour of a solo mode. Never said otherwise.

As for not wanting to do the content as designed, that's your choice -- the problem is that said content is designed. What you're asking for is additional design that caters for the specific scenario and use case you present. That's cool, If ZoS design for that in addition. Just remember that's their call, not ours.

Linaleah wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

and so far, if last year's dungeon releases are any indication. they don't seem to get that they are excluding a large portion of their subscribers with ever ramping up dungeon difficulty.

I'm just going to say, I highly suspect ZOS has the metrics to show how many DLC dungeons are started and completed.

given that typical reaction to DLC dungeon popping up in a random groupfinder, especially the wolfhunter - is to leave immediately. i wonder just how much they pay attention to those metrics.

Your typical reaction.

Linaleah · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

If anything, ZoS should increase the difficulty of non dlc normals. but I'm OK with it if they don't.

I'm almost OK with that.

I agree, the game needs exponential progression. Overland, to delve, to public dungeon, and so on.

I disagree that the dungeons have to be on a linear path of exponential progression. I.E., the newest doesn't have to be the hardest.

The 3 Undaunted should not be 2 easier ones, and one DLC, but rather each has a tier of difficulty. Maj has the easy ones, and Ugarlag has the hardest. If this means they give a new dungeon to Maj for the story, that's fine. (May also solve the Ugarlag will have too many dungeons scenario people bring up every so often).

That ZoS only revisits older content to nerf it is partially to blame here.

I get what you're saying and I am leaning somewhat to agree, but we have to understand that dungeon design and ethos has matured with the development team, player base and contextual game content.

Perhaps what is needed is a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range? Would that improve the dungeon experience?

Linaleah wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Oh, I agree. I understand the concern they may have, but I don't think its actually that difficult to overcome.

Me neither.

Linaleah wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

... a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range ...

I personally don't believe this would improve the scenario either. If anything it provides more safety, and less requirement -- essentially gimping the player from ever learning to tackle the actual content.

witchdoctor wrote: »

I hate to say it, but that way leads to SWTOR's no-role, no-risk, no-challenge dungeons (flash points) that they came up with partway through its life. Ugh, awful. I guess it is an option so long as they continue to make actual group-oriented content.

I do agree that the DLCs showcase ESO's growth in dungeons.

I like em.

I also understand some people's concern of being locked out.

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Also, let's not forget that ZoS expects people to buy these things -- they're dropping a new Chapter on us which will have the standard content, overland, world bosses, delves, etc, etc; only this time they're linking on going dlc to the main quest arc. They really won't make it so that the largest portion of the customer base is unable to use it, hence not buy it. Or worse, stop subscribing because content doesn't consider them. There is instead motivation to deliver dungeons in a way that attracts players who usually steer clear; you can bet ZoS has a means to do it in a way which won't exclude anyone in this thread.

imagine for a moment... that these people don't want to learn to tackle "actualy" content in a first place. that its NOT what they play this game for?

and so far, if last year's dungeon releases are any indication. they don't seem to get that they are excluding a large portion of their subscribers with ever ramping up dungeon difficulty.

Let's imagine for a moment I posted a suggested solution then. Or that I posted an opinion before that. See, that's what we do in a discussion, we offer views and opinions, we weight them up and reply in agreement or counterpoint. We offer alternatives, ideas and solutions. What do you think? Would my suggestion suit you? Do you have a better alternative?

which solution or suggestion would that be. so far, I'm only seeing variations of " git gud" you don't think making normal dungeons easier/more forgiving is a good idea, you don't think solo mode is a good idea, what compromise or solution are you offering that is ACTUAL compromise, or solution? your assumption that ZoS knows how to make dungeons more accessible? what does it matter if they are not actualy doing that? what does it matter if their modus operandi seems to be to make dungeons LESS forgiving, even on normal? what does it matter when given how difficult it is to do the dungeon quests in a group is (due to people rushing, people finishing the conversations before you can, so it finishes for you before you are actualy done, assuming they don't just sprint past in a first place), when they ignore all the dungeon quest issues and instead hide parts of OVERREACHING STORY behind them?

the only suggestion IMO that will work to cover all the bases is solo mode. that way you can still keep your normal dungeons with their ever escalating difficulty as "training grounds for actual content" without locking out players who have no interest in "actual content"

mairwen85 wrote: »

Perhaps what is needed is a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range? Would that improve the dungeon experience?

Btw, I am in favour of a solo mode. Never said otherwise.

As for not wanting to do the content as designed, that's your choice -- the problem is that said content is designed.

for me personaly, its not even a matter of not wanting. its a matter of can't. i cannot. compensate. for other. players. I'm nowhere near good enough for that. I can barely compensate for myself, and i usually play a healer in dungeons, as dps in this game for me is incredibly ridiculously UN FUN thanks to animation canceling being a feature on top of non sticky targeting which typically makes MMO combat more forgiving in other games.

I pug because thanks to random schedule and ever growing requirements of what you should be able to do, getting a scheduled premade group is most of the time is NOT possible for me. and guess who else shows up in pugs most of the time? other people like me.

DLC dungeons are NOT puggable by average casual player, especially most recent ones. THAT is an issue.

Linaleah · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

If anything, ZoS should increase the difficulty of non dlc normals. but I'm OK with it if they don't.

I'm almost OK with that.

I agree, the game needs exponential progression. Overland, to delve, to public dungeon, and so on.

I disagree that the dungeons have to be on a linear path of exponential progression. I.E., the newest doesn't have to be the hardest.

The 3 Undaunted should not be 2 easier ones, and one DLC, but rather each has a tier of difficulty. Maj has the easy ones, and Ugarlag has the hardest. If this means they give a new dungeon to Maj for the story, that's fine. (May also solve the Ugarlag will have too many dungeons scenario people bring up every so often).

That ZoS only revisits older content to nerf it is partially to blame here.

I get what you're saying and I am leaning somewhat to agree, but we have to understand that dungeon design and ethos has matured with the development team, player base and contextual game content.

Perhaps what is needed is a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range? Would that improve the dungeon experience?

Linaleah wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Oh, I agree. I understand the concern they may have, but I don't think its actually that difficult to overcome.

Me neither.

Linaleah wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

... a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range ...

I personally don't believe this would improve the scenario either. If anything it provides more safety, and less requirement -- essentially gimping the player from ever learning to tackle the actual content.

witchdoctor wrote: »

I hate to say it, but that way leads to SWTOR's no-role, no-risk, no-challenge dungeons (flash points) that they came up with partway through its life. Ugh, awful. I guess it is an option so long as they continue to make actual group-oriented content.

I do agree that the DLCs showcase ESO's growth in dungeons.

I like em.

I also understand some people's concern of being locked out.

No one has to be locked out. That's the thing. People lock themselves out of these things.

Also, let's not forget that ZoS expects people to buy these things -- they're dropping a new Chapter on us which will have the standard content, overland, world bosses, delves, etc, etc; only this time they're linking on going dlc to the main quest arc. They really won't make it so that the largest portion of the customer base is unable to use it, hence not buy it. Or worse, stop subscribing because content doesn't consider them. There is instead motivation to deliver dungeons in a way that attracts players who usually steer clear; you can bet ZoS has a means to do it in a way which won't exclude anyone in this thread.

imagine for a moment... that these people don't want to learn to tackle "actualy" content in a first place. that its NOT what they play this game for?

and so far, if last year's dungeon releases are any indication. they don't seem to get that they are excluding a large portion of their subscribers with ever ramping up dungeon difficulty.

Let's imagine for a moment I posted a suggested solution then. Or that I posted an opinion before that. See, that's what we do in a discussion, we offer views and opinions, we weight them up and reply in agreement or counterpoint. We offer alternatives, ideas and solutions. What do you think? Would my suggestion suit you? Do you have a better alternative?

which solution or suggestion would that be. so far, I'm only seeing variations of " git gud" you don't think making normal dungeons easier/more forgiving is a good idea, you don't think solo mode is a good idea, what compromise or solution are you offering that is ACTUAL compromise, or solution? your assumption that ZoS knows how to make dungeons more accessible? what does it matter if they are not actualy doing that? what does it matter if their modus operandi seems to be to make dungeons LESS forgiving, even on normal? what does it matter when given how difficult it is to do the dungeon quests in a group is (due to people rushing, people finishing the conversations before you can, so it finishes for you before you are actualy done, assuming they don't just sprint past in a first place), when they ignore all the dungeon quest issues and instead hide parts of OVERREACHING STORY behind them?

the only suggestion IMO that will work to cover all the bases is solo mode. that way you can still keep your normal dungeons with their ever escalating difficulty as "training grounds for actual content" without locking out players who have no interest in "actual content"

mairwen85 wrote: »

Perhaps what is needed is a 3rd mode (Casual, Normal, Veteran), and dungeon mob health, resistances, damage should be levelled to lowest player in group -- groups from group finder matched by CP range? Would that improve the dungeon experience?

Btw, I am in favour of a solo mode. Never said otherwise.

As for not wanting to do the content as designed, that's your choice -- the problem is that said content is designed. What you're asking for is additional design that caters for the specific scenario and use case you present. That's cool, If ZoS design for that in addition. Just remember that's their call, not ours.

Linaleah wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

and so far, if last year's dungeon releases are any indication. they don't seem to get that they are excluding a large portion of their subscribers with ever ramping up dungeon difficulty.

I'm just going to say, I highly suspect ZOS has the metrics to show how many DLC dungeons are started and completed.

given that typical reaction to DLC dungeon popping up in a random groupfinder, especially the wolfhunter - is to leave immediately. i wonder just how much they pay attention to those metrics.

Your typical reaction.

no, not mine. I don't leave a group until its me and one other player and we've been waiting for 10 minutes to back fill, only to have players that come in - leave too.

other common reaction I've seen is people leaving after one wipe.

mairwen85 · January 2019

Linaleah wrote: »

...
DLC dungeons are NOT puggable by average casual player, especially most recent ones. THAT is an issue.

Agreed. The question is whether they should be. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but ZoS' decision to involve them with story suggests they agree future dlc dungeons should be.

ZoS regularly revisits oldder content to nerf it. This latest DLC will be no exception. Nor will future dungeons.

Linaleah wrote:

no, not mine. I don't leave a group until its me and one other player and we've been waiting for 10 minutes to back fill, only to have players that come in - leave too.

other common reaction I've seen is people leaving after one wipe.

Sometimes people look at the group composition and decide it's better to drop -- which I think is pathetic personally.

People also leave after 1 wipe when they believe that the group is not good enough to get on (especially on normal).

Linaleah · January 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

...
DLC dungeons are NOT puggable by average casual player, especially most recent ones. THAT is an issue.

Agreed. The question is whether they should be. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but ZoS' decision to involve them with story suggests they agree future dlc dungeons should be.

ZoS regularly revisits oldder content to nerf it. This latest DLC will be no exception. Nor will future dungeons.

Linaleah wrote:

no, not mine. I don't leave a group until its me and one other player and we've been waiting for 10 minutes to back fill, only to have players that come in - leave too.

other common reaction I've seen is people leaving after one wipe.

Sometimes people look at the group composition and decide it's better to drop -- which I think is pathetic personally.

People also leave after 1 wipe when they believe that the group is not good enough to get on (especially on normal).

so sometime in a distant future, probably around where next expansion comes out... people finally MIGHT be able to see full story of the previous one? assuming they get lucky and get a group that will not grumble at them for wanting to listen to quest voice acting? I'm sorry but I cannot see possible future maybe nerf as any kind of solution to "dungeons are unpuggable" and "story is near impossible to enjoy in a group"

and e can judge people for leaving. or not. but they are still leaving. one wipe is generally not enough to know whether the group is "good enough" most people need a few tries to GET mechanics. unless of course those mechanics also assume a certain dps minimum which in this game is "soooo easy" to achieve, except it isn't unless you have impeccable aim and at least decent reflexes. and it doesn't help that more recent bosses just love moving around while also making YOU move around constantly, so you can't even fake a turret mode. this is why bte, I'm not a big fan of target dummy dps numbers. target dummy doesn't move. it doesn't make YOU move. so aiming issues are not an issue on target dummy. my personal dps halves or more between target dummy and dungeon SOLELY because no sticky targeting = half my shots don't even land.

this is part of the reason why I heal. aiming is still needed but its more forgiving. but that aside.. you have a group that is having hard time with heavy movement, having hard time with sustaining dps in this game that for some reason thinks that its third person shooter or something... and you have mechanics that punish you both for not reacting quickly enough AND not killing things quickly enough by overwhelming you with adds.

I wonder... if part of the reason ZoS decided to hide essential story behind dungeons is because so few people actualy do them, so they figured just like putting indrik tickets behind pvp event, maybe they will get more people to participate in DLC dungeons by making them more "important"... except they seem to be completely missing WHY people don't like DLC dungeons.

I mean.. how many threads we had before and during undaunted event about people not wanting DLC dungeons in their randoms?

mairwen85 · January 2019

So what is the actual issue with DLC normals, then? Let's look at points raised:

One shots --> ZoS can fix? YES
Mob numbers --> ZoS can fix? YES
Mechanics --> ZoS can fix? YES
Inability to aim --> ZoS can fix? NO
Low DPS --> ZoS can fix? NO
Available playtime --> ZoS can fix? MAYBE

If ZoS therefore designs future DLC with points 1-3 in mind, i.e. they lower mob numbers, simplify mechanics, remove one shots, would that make them doable for you with the trouble you have aiming, and your low dps? Should they make new content shorter to accommodate point 6?

Hmmm. I feel there has to be some requirement from the user on this, some effort vs reward. If you PUG, your individual dps in a normal dungeon is a minor issue (but if you're somehow doing less than 10k, something is very wrong); it's only when disrupted by mechanics that you'll be presented with trouble. Point 3 covers this. Should ZoS make enemies one-shots for players?

Despite the arguments presented, and my agreement that they can always tone it down a touch -- I still feel the parity of normal vs veteran as seen in the latest dungeons should remain (less the one-shots!

). For the use case as presented in this thread, either an new exception mode (i.e. story mode) or delve mode might be an acceptable solution, or if you need a low risk, training variant that adheres to group design, then a solo mode with AI group members might be the way forward

Edited to add | RE: Aiming

I had to go back and read this.

Linaleah wrote: »

and e can judge people for leaving. or not. but they are still leaving. one wipe is generally not enough to know whether the group is "good enough" most people need a few tries to GET mechanics. unless of course those mechanics also assume a certain dps minimum which in this game is "soooo easy" to achieve, except it isn't unless you have impeccable aim and at least decent reflexes. and it doesn't help that more recent bosses just love moving around while also making YOU move around constantly, so you can't even fake a turret mode. this is why bte, I'm not a big fan of target dummy dps numbers. target dummy doesn't move. it doesn't make YOU move. so aiming issues are not an issue on target dummy. my personal dps halves or more between target dummy and dungeon SOLELY because no sticky targeting = half my shots don't even land.

What isn't hitting? Ground AoEs? Light attacks? Because most single target skills wont fire unless they are triggered on a valid target (they are guaranteed to impact unless the enemy dodge rolls to avoid; mobs don't really do this)... Ground AoEs can be set to instant cast in game options -- this helps because it eliminates the double cast bug, and the AoE hits exactly where you point your cross-hair. Light attacks, that's just a timing thing, precision isn't necessary really, and you can miss a few without it getting your group wiped. In fact you can pretty much plough through any normal dungeon without even light attack weaving.

SiAScORCH · January 2019

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

All the dungeons out now are easy enough. It's all about learning and understanding mechanics.

For vet DLC dungeons I have simple requirements:

Discord required.
CP500+
Proper build/gear, 25-30k DPS

I've ran them all, no issues the most important thing is having people communicate and actually listen.

Not everyone wants to talk with strangers.

I get that, but I don't trust random people to actually know mechanics and listen. It's much easier to get them to comprehend when you're telling it in their ear vs having to trust they read chat.

talking usually refers to both voice AND text chat. some people sometimes would just rather play on their own.

Sure, and that's why you run into so many issues on vet DLC dungeons. I on the other hand have not.

actualy, i run into issues PUGGING them on NORMAL. WHILE communicating. text is still communication.

every single person who goes "this dungeons are easy" is either playing with a premade group where the know exactly how well their mates are performing WHILE excluding people who are in their view underperforming (which is like... majority of ESO population) and/or are such high performers that they can quite literally compensate for under performing group members.

the rest of us make do with whoever we get, and/or people we like to play with, but that are NOT god's gift to gaming. and herein lays a problem. even on normal DLC dungeons are very VERY unforgiving to such people. forger vet for a moment. NORMAL.

so fine. half the DLC's are useless to us despite a fair chunk of us paying for acess to them via ps plus - so that's half the updates that we don't get to do much with, unless we get lucky and/or have someone take pity on us. but now. NOW they are actualy part of the overreaching story art.

please. for the love of god. STOP with "git gud" just.. stop. its not happening. for a moment instead... just try. just a little bit, TRY to maybe see it from a perspective of someone who is NOT you and doesn't play like you do.

and btw, when I say people who would rather not talk to others, I mean.. they would rather NOT GROUP WITH OTHERS AT ALL.

not everyone likes to play in a group.

P.S. btw... consider for a moment. just for a moment, that its NOT the lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k.

It is lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k. I can pull 15k on a PvP toon in PvE content and that's not even with proper gear. Research means knowing your rotation, build and gear. Thus lack of rotation = bad dps.

sigh. I mean I'm not surprised that you are not getting it, but.. you are not getting it. knowing rotation =/= being able to execute it. especially in ESO that doesn't have tab targeting, has this mess of a system called LA weaving/animation canceling in addition to bar swapping. oh and latency. latency messes you up in this game in a way that it doesn't in other mmos...

I just... there is this russian saying that roughly translates as "someone with full belly will never understand someone who is starving" I feel like it applies here.

and you know the irony here, is for all this "you have to be social, its an MMO" admonitions from all these people, you all are also perfectly ok with kicking people out of groups if they don;'t perform to your specifications, forgetting that those people are PEOPLE, they are someone's friends, they are probably people in this thread and others like it. they could be (and often are) perfectly nice people that just happen not to be god's gift to gaming. off with their heads! /slam the kick button

I do get it, you don't. I was new, and I'm a way better player than I was back then. If you get kicked then accept it. I'm not about to be punished and have to sit through a miserable dungeon because you can't better yourself. Nope.

Linaleah · January 2019

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

All the dungeons out now are easy enough. It's all about learning and understanding mechanics.

For vet DLC dungeons I have simple requirements:

Discord required.
CP500+
Proper build/gear, 25-30k DPS

I've ran them all, no issues the most important thing is having people communicate and actually listen.

Not everyone wants to talk with strangers.

I get that, but I don't trust random people to actually know mechanics and listen. It's much easier to get them to comprehend when you're telling it in their ear vs having to trust they read chat.

talking usually refers to both voice AND text chat. some people sometimes would just rather play on their own.

Sure, and that's why you run into so many issues on vet DLC dungeons. I on the other hand have not.

actualy, i run into issues PUGGING them on NORMAL. WHILE communicating. text is still communication.

every single person who goes "this dungeons are easy" is either playing with a premade group where the know exactly how well their mates are performing WHILE excluding people who are in their view underperforming (which is like... majority of ESO population) and/or are such high performers that they can quite literally compensate for under performing group members.

the rest of us make do with whoever we get, and/or people we like to play with, but that are NOT god's gift to gaming. and herein lays a problem. even on normal DLC dungeons are very VERY unforgiving to such people. forger vet for a moment. NORMAL.

so fine. half the DLC's are useless to us despite a fair chunk of us paying for acess to them via ps plus - so that's half the updates that we don't get to do much with, unless we get lucky and/or have someone take pity on us. but now. NOW they are actualy part of the overreaching story art.

please. for the love of god. STOP with "git gud" just.. stop. its not happening. for a moment instead... just try. just a little bit, TRY to maybe see it from a perspective of someone who is NOT you and doesn't play like you do.

and btw, when I say people who would rather not talk to others, I mean.. they would rather NOT GROUP WITH OTHERS AT ALL.

not everyone likes to play in a group.

P.S. btw... consider for a moment. just for a moment, that its NOT the lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k.

It is lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k. I can pull 15k on a PvP toon in PvE content and that's not even with proper gear. Research means knowing your rotation, build and gear. Thus lack of rotation = bad dps.

sigh. I mean I'm not surprised that you are not getting it, but.. you are not getting it. knowing rotation =/= being able to execute it. especially in ESO that doesn't have tab targeting, has this mess of a system called LA weaving/animation canceling in addition to bar swapping. oh and latency. latency messes you up in this game in a way that it doesn't in other mmos...

I just... there is this russian saying that roughly translates as "someone with full belly will never understand someone who is starving" I feel like it applies here.

and you know the irony here, is for all this "you have to be social, its an MMO" admonitions from all these people, you all are also perfectly ok with kicking people out of groups if they don;'t perform to your specifications, forgetting that those people are PEOPLE, they are someone's friends, they are probably people in this thread and others like it. they could be (and often are) perfectly nice people that just happen not to be god's gift to gaming. off with their heads! /slam the kick button

I do get it, you don't. I was new, and I'm a way better player than I was back then. If you get kicked then accept it. I'm not about to be punished and have to sit through a miserable dungeon because you can't better yourself. Nope.

you don't get it. I'm a better player then i used to be as well. I didn't used to be able to solo early normal dungeons or those 2 craglorn story quests that are group based. now I can. however, personal improvement =/= enough for ever growing demands of the the new content, especially with people like YOU.