New dungeons better be normal

disintegr8

Just my opinion but I think most newer DLC dungeons, even in normal mode, are nothing but DPS checks. Have high enough DPS and you can ignore most mechanics.

Bring 2 DD's with 35k+ damage each and they are a piece of cake. Brink 3 30k+ DD's with some self heals and a tank, no need for a healer. You try and go through them with a couple of 15k DD's, a healer and a tank, you are going to struggle.

Normal dungeons should not be targeted at 600+ CP players, that is what vet and vet hard mode is for. I'm not saying a level 48 character without CP should find them easy, but groups of players at the CP 200 - 300 range should be able to clear all normal dungeons, including DLC.

zaria

disintegr8 wrote: »

Just my opinion but I think most newer DLC dungeons, even in normal mode, are nothing but DPS checks. Have high enough DPS and you can ignore most mechanics.

Bring 2 DD's with 35k+ damage each and they are a piece of cake. Brink 3 30k+ DD's with some self heals and a tank, no need for a healer. You try and go through them with a couple of 15k DD's, a healer and a tank, you are going to struggle.

Normal dungeons should not be targeted at 600+ CP players, that is what vet and vet hard mode is for. I'm not saying a level 48 character without CP should find them easy, but groups of players at the CP 200 - 300 range should be able to clear all normal dungeons, including DLC.

As said in previous post we wiped on the sword atronaut because I and other did not got the kill some mob to make an hole in
the kill barrier.
We almost wiped on the laser boss in the other dungeon as people did not understand the mechanic.

BuddyAces

disintegr8 wrote: »

Just my opinion but I think most newer DLC dungeons, even in normal mode, are nothing but DPS checks. Have high enough DPS and you can ignore most mechanics.

Bring 2 DD's with 35k+ damage each and they are a piece of cake. Brink 3 30k+ DD's with some self heals and a tank, no need for a healer. You try and go through them with a couple of 15k DD's, a healer and a tank, you are going to struggle.

Normal dungeons should not be targeted at 600+ CP players, that is what vet and vet hard mode is for. I'm not saying a level 48 character without CP should find them easy, but groups of players at the CP 200 - 300 range should be able to clear all normal dungeons, including DLC.

Try doing the mechanics. That's what the dlc dungeons focus on. The vet versions punish you for high dps on most of the fights.

Asardes

Laser Boss

MikaHR

Wrathstone dungeon DLC is an EPIC fail

Uviryth

I just wish Helmets would drop in Normal Mode too (or be obtainable in some other way).

mairwen85

Smitch_59 wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

@Arunei

We're essentially saying the same thing here. What I am saying differently is that (purely in the context of the thread title and opening post, but also as an extension of the discussion) if the new DLC 'normal' is easier than then previous DLC 'normal', but veteran stays the same -- the new DLC will not prepare players for veteran versions. This is detrimental to players who want challenging content. Vet only groups will be frustrated with players of lower skill (as they are now for the same reason), players who dabble in both will also be impacted and have a steeper learning curve (as illustrated in the post I linked previously). This creates a divide in ability and enjoyment of the content -- much as it is now. If ZoS instead introduce a lower than normal difficulty version, you instead have the same dungeon in incremental difficulty that is suitable for the entire player base. Casual would be at the base dungeon normal, normal would be at the expected DLC normal, and so on...

what can't happen is that Wrathstone becomes and exception to the established norm, it should instead be an example. Putting story into a dungeon this way is already an exception, but adding the new mode would redefine that as a new direction for group content -- and example for future expectations and far more inclusive.

I for one have no interest in being "prepared for veteran versions" of dungeons. I don't enjoy hard content and therefore I don't play vet. I don't want to drag a group down and I don't want to be carried. I simply don't play vet, plain and simple. I play ESO to relax, not to be frustrated.

So your argument that I won't be prepared for vet is not relevant to me.

Exactly my point. Ergo, the 3 rung difficulty ladder: Casual (or story mode), Normal, and Veteran (by extension HM for 'hardcore')

mairwen85 wrote: »

If ZoS instead introduce a lower than normal difficulty version, you instead have the same dungeon in incremental difficulty that is suitable for the entire player base. Casual would be at the base dungeon normal, normal would be at the expected DLC normal, and so on...

Feanor

Could you specify which dungeons you are talking about? Because only Frostvault is harder on Vet, on normal every dungeon is quite easy. At least with a solid group - 30k group DPS, a Tank who taunts, and a Heal who heals isn’t much.

Digiman

Getting sick of people screaming "get good" in group content when they don't know the actual situation outside there guild bubble...

Not everyone has all the gear sets, CP, knowledge of the encounters at their disposal, and getting PuG around this is another difficulty I encourage this elites to complete once a week....

But no, they would rather stay in there safe space.

The worst of it is time, not everyone has that either for such larger runs.

WuffyCerulei

Can yall stop necroing threads please.

Feanor

Not everyone has all the gear sets, CP, knowledge of the encounters at their disposal, and getting PuG around this is another difficulty

The issue is none of these matter if you have a basic understanding of the game. It’s normal difficulty. Mechanics are toned down to the extent they’re hardly discernible any longer, high NPC damage is reduced drastically, and as much as 10 to 15k DPS is sufficient.

True, some people might have disabilities or are older. These might have a difficult time nonetheless, and if there is a way to make their game experience better, cool. I just don’t think that a story mode could alleviate this - how would that work in the first place? Everything dies within a light attack and every NPC deals 0 damage?

XxCaLxX

Digiman wrote: »

Getting sick of people screaming "get good" in group content when they don't know the actual situation outside there guild bubble...

Not everyone has all the gear sets, CP, knowledge of the encounters at their disposal, and getting PuG around this is another difficulty I encourage this elites to complete once a week....

But no, they would rather stay in there safe space.

The worst of it is time, not everyone has that either for such larger runs.

You don’t even have to “get good” for these new dungeons. With a little effort even the most casual players should be able to complete them on vet. I know they’re not easy for everyone but they’re a lot less difficult than previous dungeons at their release. Only time I run with my pre made group is for getting hard modes, titles, skins etc. 90% of time I q for pugs and very rarely does it not get done. But here’s a surprise. Anyone that plays can go get the gear and cp the same as anyone else did. No one else got it for free.

Varana

MikaHR wrote: »

Wrathstone dungeon DLC is an EPIC fail

What metric is that? What is "interest over time"? Players? Sales? Instagram mentions? Pancakes?

Huyen

Arunei wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

And beyond that, why are people complaining about others wanting normal versions of DLC dungeons to be easier, when Vet and HM versions exist for the people who can do the harder content? How would normal being made more accessible to more people hurt any of you who only want the 'harder content' when it's not that harder content people are asking to be toned down?

And what about the people who enjoy the normal dungeons as they are, but think that Vet and Hard Mode are too stressful? Where do we end up? Running Fungal Grotto 1 level dungeons over and over again to all eternity?

Not necessarily. Making the normal versions easier doesn't have to mean nuking them down to FG or Wayrest 1 levels. But making things more accessible overall to more people isn't a bad thing, and there can still be a variety of difficulties between both vanilla and DLC dungeons. Do they all have to be hard or do they all have to be easy? No, but they all should be able to be something everyone has a fair shot at being able to complete. The really end game stuff like trials, vet trials, and doing the Challenger achieves for the DLC dungeons/trials will also always still exist for people wanting harder content, as no one is saying those need any sort of changes.

I've not seen anyone yet say that they tried a normal DLC dungeon 5 times and failed every time. Are they a bit longer than Fungal Grotto 1 and Spindleclutch 1? Yes, they are. Are they impossibly to complete in a PUG? Not at all. I only had one normal Scalecaller run fall apart so far, and that was early on when we were all there for the first time and people left after wiping to the ogres 3 times.

Just because you haven't seen anyone say it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People post here all the time about continuously failing pugging for vanilla dungeons for whatever reason. I've had dungeon pugs fall apart and fail on DLC dungeons, I've had easy runs too. And yes, a lot of the times these dungeons CAN be impossible to pug, since it's completely random (unless you group up with 1-3 other people) who you'll get paid with. You might get that person who can only do 10k DPS and the tank that's still leveling, or a healer who's more concerned with DD than the heals and buffs, and so on.

Other than that, I've run Scalecaller, Mazzatun, Cradle of Shadows, Falkreath and Bloodrot forge numerous times using the random dungeon finder and was always successful. Sometimes there's a wipe at a boss, but most of the time it's a smooth run.

Your experience is not everyone else's. Again, a loooooot of people post fairly often about having terrible luck in dungeons, both vanilla and DLC. When I was pugging I got these dungeons a lot too, and a lot of the time people will either just nope out of the group (which I've had to do a few times when I found myself in a DLC dungeon I knew I wasn't equipped to run) or there will be multiple wipes that result in the group giving up. We all have different experience.

The feeling I get is that people give up on a dungeon if they don't succeed on the first try, and I don't think that should be the baseline. Failing sometimes is ok. Try to figure out what went wrong and try again.

It could be that, or it could be people having legitimate limitations that keep them from succeeding at the dungeon. When my and my friends decided to do vBF and vFH, we spent hours on the first and had to shuffle group member and characters, and even then it was a slog to make it. vFH took us a lot longer, with the first run ending in numerous wipes at Domihaus before two of the group had to go. My and the other person tried to pug it but that failed miserably. A few days later we tried again, and there were even more wipes at Domihaus (iirc at least) but that time we managed to clear it. But there are people who play this game who might not have the luxury of running harder content with decently skilled friends, or may have a harder time with things for whatever reason. Part of the reason it was so hard for us doing vFH is because my situational awareness isn't all that great. I try to pay attention to things that are going on, but then my attention gets distracted by several different things and I lose track of what's going on somewhere else. That there isn't a L2P or git gud issue, it's a matter of how I perceive and react to things, and for me it's not nearly as good as other people. That's just one example of something that can hold people back from content that others might consider easy.

I remember before One Tamriel when I ran vet dungeons more regularly, how hard vet Crypt of Heart (now CoH II) was. There was just so much stuff happening on the last boss, we just wiped so many times. Then you got used to the mechanics and you could anticipate what he would do and it became a lot easier. The same is true for the DLCs. They can be completed on the first try, but they will get easier with practice as well, so don't give up and enjoy the ride.

I doubt anyone is running DLC dungeons and clearing them on their first try, unless they're running in a group with someone who's done it before or they're an exceptionally lucky group. There's too much needing to get a hang of the mechanics (even if you're using a guide to know what those mechanics are, it doesn't help you learn and adapt to them like actually getting in there does) for a group who are all doing stuff the first time. And while yes, the content does get easier the more you run it and become familiar with it, that's only the case if you can run and complete it to begin with. I, for example, will probably never do a trial like MoL simply because it takes so long and such planning to get a raid together for it. I'm never going to learn and get used to MoL mechanics if I can't take part in and clear the content.

I hear you, but the problem people (myself included) have is that dlc dungeons suddenly require tactics, compared to base game dungeons (II dungeons not included) are pretty much tank and spank. The sudden change in difficult is putting people off. I love the craftbag, but I wont sub anymore because I dont like the dlc dungeons, and dont want them 9 out of the 10 randoms I do as tank because they take so much time. Granted even BC1 can be a pain with 3 froststaff users but still....dlc difficulty is not in line with the other dungeons.

jainiadral

MikaHR wrote: »

Wrathstone dungeon DLC is an EPIC fail

You're using Google search trends as a gauge for DLC sales? Wow

Facefister

Digiman wrote: »

Getting sick of people screaming "get good" in group content when they don't know the actual situation outside there guild bubble...

Not everyone has all the gear sets, CP, knowledge of the encounters at their disposal, and getting PuG around this is another difficulty I encourage this elites to complete once a week....

But no, they would rather stay in there safe space.

The worst of it is time, not everyone has that either for such larger runs.

This is still a MMORPG. You can still clear them on Normal, you wont miss any story piece.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Varana wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Wrathstone dungeon DLC is an EPIC fail

What metric is that? What is "interest over time"? Players? Sales? Instagram mentions? Pancakes?

Waffles?

Nerouyn

Libonotus wrote: »

And by normal I mean the same difficulty as the old dungeons and some DLC dungeons on the normal setting. I don’t think it’s fair to have “normal” dlc dungeons be vet difficulty and vet dlc dungeons be trial difficulty. That means only a minority of the player base get to form the tablet and see Abnur Tharne

It's more than just a matter of diffiuclty IMO. It's style.

eg. one-shot death mechanics are overkill, if you'll pardon the pun.

You spend a considerable amount of time playing your character and probably learning to do it moderately well and content like this throws that out the window.

It doesn't matter in the slightest how good you are at playing at your character or how many various points you've invested or what gear you're wearing. Fail to dodge / block / avoid specific red circles / attacks and you're toast.

Guild Wars 2 introduced that idea. They can get away with that slightly more easily because resurrecting players from the merely downed state is easier in that game. And IMO they didn't really get away with it.

I don't think their end-game content was ever particularly popular. Initially having done away with the trinity - as ESO effectively has by downgrading healers to buffbots / DPS - and by making everything about just avoiding red circles, it sucked the fun out of dungeons. Players only did them in GW2 cos they were easy gold. When they took the gold away at one point, they quickly had to re-institute it. That content isn't fun enough in its own right to keep players coming back.

MikaHR

jainiadral wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Wrathstone dungeon DLC is an EPIC fail

You're using Google search trends as a gauge for DLC sales? Wow

Yeah, because your "opinion" is better than Googles analytics....you know the google....with 4+ billion users daily....then random "jainiadral" appears and says "no".

jainiadral

MikaHR wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Wrathstone dungeon DLC is an EPIC fail

You're using Google search trends as a gauge for DLC sales? Wow

Yeah, because your "opinion" is better than Googles analytics....you know the google....with 4+ billion users daily....then random "jainiadral" appears and says "no".

...wat?

The only metrics that matter are ZOS' figures and they haven't released those. The only opinion I've expressed here is that your choice of statistical data is bad. Find some real data and you might have a point.

Jhalin

After doing both dungeons and reading the dialogue (yes, even those little in between bits)

There’s barely any story to be had. By no means does it have some grand impact on the story, every bit of it is so vague as to not be worth mentioning in terms of any relevance to the next chapter.

“Oh you found some rocks? Cool what are they”

“Weird to find a not-dwemer thing in here, has Khajiit writings” or “odd to be guarded by Meridia’s brainwashed followers, it’s got Khajiit writing”

“Neat, bye”

There now you know know the entire story. There’s no hints to Elsywer, there’s no mention of Abnur Tharn.

Unless we see Tharayya again I doubt our character’s appearance will even be noted

So if you want a no gear, no skill point, point and click adventure mode for a narrative that will likely have no acknowledgement of our involvement in the next chapters, my opinion is that it cheapens the experience for no real benefit. No one’s gonna go purchasing the dungeon packs for story modes. They buy or ESO+ sub for the gear, or because they enjoy endgame and challenging content

And again, anyone can do the content on normal. It doesn’t take good dps, 10k will do. It doesn’t take godlike reflexes, nothing in the Wrathstone dungeons will one shot on normal. It doesn’t take ages of practice, if the group has a basic understanding you’ll be done within the hour. It doesn’t take BiS gear, people have and do run them with crafted sets.

Normal dungeon are incredibly forgiving, these two even more so than past DLC dungeons. Just grab a few friends/guildies and try them out

D0PAMINE

I always recommend people slot a self heal, even with a healer. It makes it much more forgivable in a pinch.

MikaHR

jainiadral wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Wrathstone dungeon DLC is an EPIC fail

You're using Google search trends as a gauge for DLC sales? Wow

Yeah, because your "opinion" is better than Googles analytics....you know the google....with 4+ billion users daily....then random "jainiadral" appears and says "no".

...wat?

The only metrics that matter are ZOS' figures and they haven't released those. The only opinion I've expressed here is that your choice of statistical data is bad. Find some real data and you might have a point.

Oh really, 4+ billion daily users is "statistically bad" according to random "jainiadral"

Arunei

Huyen wrote: »

I hear you, but the problem people (myself included) have is that dlc dungeons suddenly require tactics, compared to base game dungeons (II dungeons not included) are pretty much tank and spank. The sudden change in difficult is putting people off. I love the craftbag, but I wont sub anymore because I dont like the dlc dungeons, and dont want them 9 out of the 10 randoms I do as tank because they take so much time. Granted even BC1 can be a pain with 3 froststaff users but still....dlc difficulty is not in line with the other dungeons.

I think you're confusing my posts with people who are against making dungeons easier for people, heh. That is a problem, though, and it's not even just the fact that there are mechanics people need to learn and adapt to. It's that on normal, people who are decent can usually burn through the bosses and stuff without having to pay attention to mechanics, but when Vet rolls around, no one really knows or understands how to combat those mechanics because bosses got melted on normal.

Now I know this might make it sound like 'hey if you can burn bosses on Normal doesn't that mean they don't need to be made easier', to which I'll keep saying what I've been saying; not everyone is a really good or even decent player, and things can be toned down a bit while still keeping mechanics in play. For example, have all mechanics have HP checkpoints on bosses, so they happen regardless of how fast the boss is burned down. An example of this would be Domihaus' 'Grovel' mechanic. No matter how fast you can burn him, you HAVE to follow that mechanic or you get OHKO'd, but you know when it's coming since it happens at specific percents of his health. So hey, why not implement stuff like that for all the bosses? That way people still learn mechanics b/c they happen regardless, and it doesn't have to make dungeons any harder than they already are on normal (aside from actually following the mechanics I guess). And just to throw this out there, I don't think mechanics should OHKO you if you don't follow them. Maybe do a fair amount of damage and a few good debuffs, so you have to have a dedicated healer (since so many people complain about healers not being needed these days) to help restore HP and remove the debuffs?

And you can do stuff like this for normal dungeons while still making them a bit easier, too. Reduce damage from bosses and mobs a little and that alone can make stuff easier without having to do any drastic changes or anything like that.

Mojmir

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I always recommend people slot a self heal, even with a healer. It makes it much more forgivable in a pinch.

heals of any kind dont work against one shots, even tanks with high health get it.

karekiz

MikaHR wrote: »

Oh really, 4+ billion daily users is "statistically bad" according to random "jainiadral"

I just searched Everquest and it was spiking up, does that mean a hardcore game with XP penalities, harsh leveling, and forced group content is getting more traction?

SoLooney

Yea god forbid that role players cant complete normal difficulty for DLC dungeons

Starlock

karekiz wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Oh really, 4+ billion daily users is "statistically bad" according to random "jainiadral"

I just searched Everquest and it was spiking up, does that mean a hardcore game with XP penalities, harsh leveling, and forced group content is getting more traction?

There's no sense in arguing with someone who does not have a grasp of what real analytics is about.

But let's just go with "yes" because that's the fun and silly answer.

Starlock

SoLooney wrote: »

Yea god forbid that role players cant complete normal difficulty for DLC dungeons

What does being a role-player have to do with anything?

In any case, I've only had the opportunity to do one of the two new dungeons. I was able to get my own "story mode" group together and take our time, which was amazing and made me wish more and more that we had a solo story mode available. It's hard to get people together to do stuff like this, and I was only able to pull it off because I lucked out and am in an amazing social guild.

We did the Frostvault dungeon. I couldn't tell you precisely what our collective experience levels are. Our tank was new to tanking, as she mentioned as much. Our healer regularly did trial healing, I think? And the two damage dealers? Well, one of them was me, and I know I apparently suck as a damage dealer based on what I've heard about the numbers I am "supposed to" find "easy" to do. Pretty sure the other guy wasn't one of those obscenely high damage dealers either.

Running through the dungeon on normal, we never had a complete wipe... but we definitely had several KOs. Most of that was due to us learning mechanics the first time on the fly. But on the whole? It was manageable and actually fun for once! The worst thing about it was learning how bad the racial changes hit my poor altmer lightning mage under pressure. Unless there was some magicka drain mechanic I didn't catch, this is unrelated to Frostvault itself, though.

All that said, we were a well-coordinated group who were comfortable talking to each other and laughing at our mistakes. We were an ideal group of (probably) mediocre players who just like to have fun. As we were playing it, I could identify aspects that could be really frustrating in a random group who was not communicating. With that under consideration, is Frostvault normal actually normal? I won't make that call yet, but it was a far cry from the one time I got plopped into a partially-completed Moon Hunter Keep, after which I said "never again."

p00tx

MikaHR wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Wrathstone dungeon DLC is an EPIC fail

You're using Google search trends as a gauge for DLC sales? Wow

Yeah, because your "opinion" is better than Googles analytics....you know the google....with 4+ billion users daily....then random "jainiadral" appears and says "no".

...wat?

The only metrics that matter are ZOS' figures and they haven't released those. The only opinion I've expressed here is that your choice of statistical data is bad. Find some real data and you might have a point.

Oh really, 4+ billion daily users is "statistically bad" according to random "jainiadral"

The data isn't bad. It's legit data. What IS bad is your forced interpretation.This was a strawman argument using unincorporated data to support it. The number of people who Google "Wraithstone" has nothing (causal) to do with the financial success of the DLC. It's purely correlative. That's first semester Statistics stuff.




To all other posters, I think having a "story mode" with no drops other than a bit of gold and/or mats and trash pots sounds like a great idea. It doesn't detract from my vet-mode game play in any way and it makes these dungeons more fun and accessible for the more casual community who only want to experience the story, rather than getting all sweaty like the rest of us. There is room here for all of us. We just have to be more open to finding realistic and fair solutions, rather than clinging to an us/them mentality. I haven't forgotten what it felt like to be a low CP player with no concept of a rotation or dungeon mechanics. I was overwhelmed by freaking Spindleclutch the first time I accidentally wandered in. I think it's too easy for those of us at the top to forget where we came from and where we started.

To those of you at lower levels who want access to everything now: slow down and let yourself enjoy the game at a proper pace. You'll get there eventually, I promise. We all went through what you're going through at one point in time and we all figured it out. You don't need the biggest and baddest gear and all of the skins at CP 200. That is just unrealistic and you're skipping a lot of important steps by expecting that.