Seraphayel wrote: »

Just leaving this here...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5757162#Comment_5757162

All four "Magicka" races are parsing very close together, the difference from best to worst is ~ 2-3%.

Difference between best and worst is 59163-58679=484. that is 100*484/59163=0.818% or less than 1%
Even on prefect parses you still get variation because of crit.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

We showed you actual evidence that you are not losing huge amounts of dps by not being the "Best" race and that every race is very close as far as damage goes. This is why we are saying you are complaining about nothing. Because either you care about the extra 500 dps or you don't and are attached to your character as is. Any guild that kicks you because you aren't the "best" race isn't a guild worth belonging to.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Just leaving this here...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5757162#Comment_5757162

All four "Magicka" races are parsing very close together, the difference from best to worst is ~ 2-3%.

The "evidence" quickly collapsed once someone noticed how the Altmer parse took 4s longer and had 3.4% less crits total (and more).
And this is normal, because parses are not a scientifically repeatable activity. With those numbers all it takes is a tiny lagspike, or a twitching finger, anything, and you easily get 2-3k above or below the math result.

A more scientific approach comes from that other guy, who wonders how it's possible that - everything else being equal, 1250 magicka bonus is yielding the same results as 2000 magicka.
It isn't, in fact.

Non only that. Liko is doing fire spec, petless tests. A large number of sorcs play with pets and as of today pets only scale off magicka. The most popular pet sorc set is explicitly mentioned in the patch notes as "won't receive buffs" either.
Even if pets will receive bonuses from more sources, magicka shall still be one of them. And magicka is reduced on Dunmer. Not even mentioning the simple, math proven fact that the race with more magicka bonus ALSO comes with the most scarce magsorc characteristic: sustain bonus.

The evidence didn't collapse. It's just a parse like every other parse will be.

You know why EVERY parse will be different? Because the base stats for every race are different. Some have more Magicka, some more Crit. That's why you even out parses what he did. It really doesn't matter if one parse was 3s longer or 4s shorter. After doing enough parses it weighs out and it will be the case in this example, too.

In a perfect parse Altmer should always be above Dunmer, yes. But there is no perfect parse alone due to crit chance. That's why in the end it really doesn't matter if one race is 1-2k above the other, it's always like that.

Pretty sure all of the following parses will show similar results with Magicka races being almost on par. What will be your argument then? The racial changes are totally negligible for 99.99999% of the playerbase.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

We showed you actual evidence that you are not losing huge amounts of dps by not being the "Best" race and that every race is very close as far as damage goes. This is why we are saying you are complaining about nothing. Because either you care about the extra 500 dps or you don't and are attached to your character as is. Any guild that kicks you because you aren't the "best" race isn't a guild worth belonging to.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Just leaving this here...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5757162#Comment_5757162

All four "Magicka" races are parsing very close together, the difference from best to worst is ~ 2-3%.

The "evidence" quickly collapsed once someone noticed how the Altmer parse took 4s longer and had 3.4% less crits total (and more).
And this is normal, because parses are not a scientifically repeatable activity. With those numbers all it takes is a tiny lagspike, or a twitching finger, anything, and you easily get 2-3k above or below the math result.

A more scientific approach comes from that other guy, who wonders how it's possible that - everything else being equal, 1250 magicka bonus is yielding the same results as 2000 magicka.
It isn't, in fact.

Non only that. Liko is doing fire spec, petless tests. A large number of sorcs play with pets and as of today pets only scale off magicka. The most popular pet sorc set is explicitly mentioned in the patch notes as "won't receive buffs" either.
Even if pets will receive bonuses from more sources, magicka shall still be one of them. And magicka is reduced on Dunmer. Not even mentioning the simple, math proven fact that the race with more magicka bonus ALSO comes with the most scarce magsorc characteristic: sustain bonus.

The evidence didn't collapse. It's just a parse like every other parse will be.

You know why EVERY parse will be different? Because the base stats for every race are different. Some have more Magicka, some more Crit. That's why you even out parses what he did. It really doesn't matter if one parse was 3s longer or 4s shorter. After doing enough parses it weighs out and it will be the case in this example, too.

In a perfect parse Altmer should always be above Dunmer, yes. But there is no perfect parse alone due to crit chance. That's why in the end it really doesn't matter if one race is 1-2k above the other, it's always like that.

Pretty sure all of the following parses will show similar results with Magicka races being almost on par. What will be your argument then? The racial changes are totally negligible for 99.99999% of the playerbase.

My argument is exactly the same:

1) A rebalance (that may be going to cost cash) where we already know it'll still sport Altmer above and others below.

2) What made it FAIR is that Dunmer were not the first in most cases, but could pull slightly higher DPS in case of certain fire specs and gear.

3) What made it CREDIBLE, was the known very high Altmer affinity with magick but also the best Dunmer affinity with fire.

Now they are neutering the one Dunmer signature characteristic, while still keeping Altmer's AND still keeping Altmer's increased sustain to boot.

Thank god then i dont have to answer to a group of people that wants me to GITGUD and race change.


And thank god i treat this game as it is; a game. Not some annual work report or something.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Then keep playing it.

Unless you're going for some leaderboard score run the changes are not going to make your character unable to complete content. ESO is much more about player skill than min/max builds, if you've been playing for five years then you should have the experience to be able to do enough DPS for most groups without any worry what race/class/build changes happen.

Stop telling players to just accept nerfs. "I'm not going for score" is no reason to just be fine with just waking up one day and finding out you're X percentage weaker.

If you're not going for scores though why does it matter? You can still complete content, DPS is down yes but we're not talking tens of thousands.
If you care about the damage your character does keep chasing the meta and switch, if you care about playing a race because you like a race then keep playing that race.

People are being insanely hyperbolic with some of their posting as if ZOS has made them lose 30K DPS with these changes. There are plenty of other nerfs which have happened which had bigger impacts on DPS than these racial changes did and people are still kicking butt with their characters.

Maybe you like to be treated like an hamster ever rolling on a wheel, I am not.

You are in the wrong genre of games then. If you want to be a score pusher, you're going to have to change every 3-6 months. That's how this game works.

If that is not how you want to play this game, I don't blame you. I came from the same place. I play casual now, but not one of my half serious specs pulls less than 35k raid buff (that includes sword and shield dps, ice dps etc). The only thing, singular, in a game of thousands upon thousands of hours of content that I cannot do is be on a board that wipes each update that no one ever looks at for nothing but bragging rights and decon fodder in gold.

Nawthanx. I'll play my 20k self buffed hybrid instead cause it makes people screech.

Seraphayel wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

It's still a difference. It is still imbalanced. It doesn't even show the dps of the other races. There isn't enough data there to go on yet either. YOu'd need to parse many, many times on each class. Then compare them to reach any conclusion at all.

I must have missed these parses by the "sky is falling" or "races are sh*t now" crowd. I mean they claim race xyz is weaker or useless now but haven't provided any tests yet to actually prove their point. Whereas we have several parses now that races are factually not very much apart from each other.

Seraphayel wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

It's still a difference. It is still imbalanced. It doesn't even show the dps of the other races. There isn't enough data there to go on yet either. YOu'd need to parse many, many times on each class. Then compare them to reach any conclusion at all.

I must have missed these parses by the "sky is falling" or "races are sh*t now" crowd. I mean they claim race xyz is weaker or useless now but haven't provided any tests yet to actually prove their point. Whereas we have several parses now that races are factually not very much apart from each other.

But the problem for me and many is.. it is not all about pve dps parses. Or do i have to remind again that not everyone is a dps? We have tanks that are getting their % health nerfed, we now have 1h enchants being nerfed so less options actually. "Fun builds" nerfed that used % modifier for certain benefits just because could. Less options. And pve dps parse do not change that fact sadly.

But i guess we are all pve dps. No pvp builds, no fun builds. "just adapt" is the mantra. Of course people will adapt, so will pve dps in dungeon queue for hours when there are even less tanks in there because less and less options and the feeling of just more and more nerfs incoming so why bother to "adapt"?

People just think these changes so selfishly and not see the bigger picture and where all these little by little are taking the game. One can "adapt" only so much before reaches the point of "why bother?" idea instead when there is only 1 little box left where you should be and how to play the game.

wp

VaranisArano wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

shaielzafine wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Then keep playing it.

Unless you're going for some leaderboard score run the changes are not going to make your character unable to complete content. ESO is much more about player skill than min/max builds, if you've been playing for five years then you should have the experience to be able to do enough DPS for most groups without any worry what race/class/build changes happen.

I am going for leaderboard scores and I don't like to be "tolerated" in a hm trial.

The "player skill factor" should never be factored in when doing class balance. So what, I am as good as my team mates but I am forced to perform worse anyway.

If you're going for leaderboards in a serious manner you shouldn't ever care about racial choice past the combat benefits, so you should change and adapt to continue working towards the best options possible.

There will always be something which doesn't perform as good as the others, that's not something games can fix without giving literally the character to everyone.
You're the only one forcing yourself to perform worse if you're taking the suboptimal choice because you're annoyed your old choice got changed.

So are you telling him, that suddenly because ZOS wanted to change racial passives, that he should just go adapt and buy a race change token? For who knows how many toons? This is an issue that ZOS decided to create one day, and on that same day the race change tokens were marked down on sale at the crown store. There was an advertisement in game in my UI as I logged on, after I watched the dev stream.

If he wants to chase the meta then yes he needs to change his race.
ZOS and how they're handling race change token is enough debate all together.

I don't think its a another debate all together.

ZOS implemented much needed racial passive updates. We all know some races suffered from lackluster passives.
ZOS then monetized that much needed racial passive update.

They didn't have to.
They could have offered free race changes, understanding that they are upending the way things have been for a long time, in some cases stripping out passive bonuses that have been there more or less from the beginning.
They could have offered Name changes, knowing that lore is important and people often named their characters in accordance with race.
They've offered the wholly inadequate one free Race change token, which I note, doesn't include a name change.

In short, ZOS deliberately changed the game in a way designed to encourage players to play certain races for certain roles in such a way where they will profit off of any player who wants to take advantage of those new changes by changing their race. Which, because of the magnitude of the changes, is a lot more players than previously, where you might see a few meta-chasers change race or reroll new characters. Its monetization of a major gameplay change.

Sure, you can say, 'If you want to follow the meta, sometimes you have to play with money or time/effort," and that's not untrue. But I don't think its right to ignore that ZOS created this situation precisely so that people would pay with money or time/effort to follow the new meta. That fact isn't surprising, but I do find it disappointing.

if thats the case then why altmer, redguard didnt get huge nerfs? because they are the most common races which if they get nerfed, a lot of people would have to change.

also imperials are still meh. they should have get the best buff so people would feel the need of buying that race.

trying to get cash from a bunch of mDK dunmers seems dumb.

Vahrokh wrote: »

In every MMO I play (since before 2000) I play a magicka based DPS, usually a mage. I love Dark Elves (Baldur's Gate times!).

(This is entirely a PvE oriented post).

When ESO beta started, I rolled a Dunmer Magicka Sorceress, of course.
I had tons of great time and epic moments with her.


I have invested INNUMERABLE hours on her. Purchased all sorts of crown store stuff to make her better.

With her, I had all the hard mode and speed run achievements for Craglorn trials when we still had Veteran Ranks.

With her, I made into hard mode vMOL.


Over the years, however, ZOS has relentlessy made playing her less tasteful and meaningful.
I am not (just) talking about performance. This is a (mmo)RPG, that is you are meant to have a grand "feel good" experience with your characters. They have to feel epic, they have a story, they have a lore. Dunmers literally live around volcanoes and this has forever changed their affinity to fire.

First ZOS started a never ending chipping away of class signature abilities. It's not the case I list what everyone know: killed and made "normalized" our nuke. Normalized all sorts of unique curses, shields etc, in the name of a tasteless streamlining. Read: "it costs us time and money, so we can't bother dealing with class and builds diversity. We just level all them down to a simple, easily managed minimum common denominator".

Funnily enough, I played a 2008 PvP MMO that featured 24 different races and specs, made by a smaller company, and yet they managed to make it balanced. Apparently a billion company cannot deal with an handful classes.


Furthermore: I always loved playing a fire or lightning spec. Both have their uses. Being an "old generation" gamer, I have been accustomed at mages being the "masters of AoE". After enough AoE fire damage specs, I switched to lightning and loved it. Being this a RPG that features multiple specs, I love both fire and lightning and expect they are both viable.

However, over the years, fire got stripped off AoE and became single target, lightning became sort of the forced "pets + AoE" spec.

What happened then? Already PvE underperforming magicka sorceresses developed so that lightning spec is non competitive any more. Fire spec used to be decent (I don't say "competitive" because that's reserved to other classes) and, being a Dunmer, I could reap some benefits out of that.

But now they are coming for my race too. Cruelly stripping away the last taste of flavour I could enjoy, stripping away the fire damage bonus. Giving some stamina bonus, to a race that has ALWAYS meant to be "just behind Altmers as magicka affinity".

Coming next patch, I am left with a visibly underperforming ligthtning spec OR a nerfed fire spec. There's no way out. It's just nerf stacking on nerf, stacking on class homogenization.

Only alternative, would be to change race and class, that is the two very reasons why I play ESO for.

I don't care if I get a free race change token. I want to play my character AS IS, as it's always done for 5 years!

Is it asking too much?

Dunmer MagSorc main here @Vahrokh so I feel your pain, probably more so as I was an Overload build from launch, first they killed it in PvE (Ulti to 500) then finally everywhere and I was MagDW which patch after patch got nerfed till its really not viable now.

Beaten and battered so many times but on we trudge

Hallothiel wrote: »

Might have felt a bit more amenable to hearing your arguments if you hadn’t tied it in to the Pastor Niemoller quote in an absurd and rather ridiculous way. As whinging about changes in a *** video game is just the same.

Grow up.

What's Pastor Niemoller?

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Might have felt a bit more amenable to hearing your arguments if you hadn’t tied it in to the Pastor Niemoller quote in an absurd and rather ridiculous way. As whinging about changes in a *** video game is just the same.

Grow up.

What's Pastor Niemoller?

google and wikipedia are your friends.... People my age remember his opposition to a drastic regime in EU in the 40s. His poem is apparently where you got your thread title. I'm not posting it because it's political (in the EXTREME) and I value my ability to post here - but perhaps you should, like, use the tools available to you AND LOOK HIM UP.

Bruh.

No, she's got a point. Good point. Nice point.

I've no issue giving ZOS grief over dumbing down/homogenizing things like classes, weapons, whatever. However, SOME things have to be similar/same/'general' or generic. If anything is pushed and shoved towards unique, you get GW2's utterly inflexible class design and...odd pvp balance.

And shame ZOS to the ends of the earth for the massive, steaming garbage heap that is class design right now (though they seem to be doing...not-quite-as-bad. As usual. Maybe. Anyway).

But I don't think stats attached to an otherwise purely cosmetic part of the game is one of those things. For a long time I've hated that racial passive design rewarded/encouraged the stack-everything-into-one meta. Not saying that still isn't the meta, but my Bosmer magicka warden, with her glorious 21% stamina regen and extra stam pool, got pennies from the passive compared to a bosmer stamina warden. Now the stam warden still benefits mostly the same(ish, depending on if the person you're asking cares about the stealth thing or not) as they did before, but now my magicka warden isn't goofed over by percentage boosts.

It looks like past slights by ZOS against class integrity (of which there has been many, and do keep calling them out for that) has blinded you to some extent to the massive potential good this change can do in the long run. Obviously, there are relatively minor kinks to work out

Wish they'd just RIP the band-aid off and turn racial passives into a 'background growth' type thing, where you can select from a wide variety of totally garbage bonuses that ultimately mean nothing, but add to customization and the 'feel' of the character (so people can build that fire dmg build they want, but someone somewhere did napkin math to ensure the passives don't get skewed). Eh. I won't hold my breath.

The meta crowd roaring when anything changes is a whole separate issue though. The only thing that won't change is that things are gonna change xD

VaranisArano wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Dunmer are getting a buff. Not sure what you are upset about.

Not if you were a fire-wielding MagDK DPS, they didn't.

Weird, my MagDK Ashboi definitely did more damage in the PTS than he currently does on live. In the PTS I was regularly hitting over 40 and sometimes upward of 50k DPS running around the Forgotten Crypts in Deshaan. Granted that might not be a hardcore super meta test or whatever, but I'm hardly a vet trials player. I'll do (or try to do) vet DLC dungeons with some of my friends, but I won't PUG them and I don't bother with even regular trials (even though I wanna farm some Olorime gear for my healer, but that's more a matter of needing to find the people to do it).

This isn't directed at anyone in general, nor is it meant in a patronizing way or anything, but I honestly wonder how many people that claim to be worried about the integrity of their Mag Dunmer have bothered installing the PTS and testing their builds. And in the case where someone does find a drastic drop in their DPS, well...idk man, I won't deny that would suck. But I was certain when I fired up the PTS to test a few of my characters that my Dunmer would be doing less damage and that he'd basically be relegated to just being a pretty face on my roster. Turns out all the "halp Dunmer got nerfed" threads had me worried for nothing. Granted my experience may not be everyone's, but I honestly think the changes are going to have less of a devastating impact than a lot of people feared (and still fear).

But hey, an important thing everyone needs to keep in mind is these changes aren't live yet, so if you find that something seems off or you feel you have legit concerns about changes, I'd suggest making threads stating your case over in the PTS forums. And I mean genuine articulate and civil threads, with screenshots or numbers or solid logic and reasoning to back your points, not threads that are basically complaining about how you don't like something so it shouldn't be that way. Again that's not being directed at anyone in this thread or anything, I'm talking about in general.

even though we've seen in the past just how much ZOS listens to PTS feedback...

EDIT: In terms of lore and racials and all that...isn't Dunmer being good at both weapons and magick (as the change to Ruination implies by bumping Weapon and Spell Damage) also lore-friendly? They're essentially just trading out one lore thinger for another, so I'm not quite sure what the problem is tbh. And if you weren't really relying on those racials to begin with theeeeen...idk, it just seems having passives purely for lore instead of actually contributing to builds seems a little strange to me. Some of it I do find weird, like the whole "lel Bozmurr can detect Stealthed targets bettur even tho that only works in pee-vee-pee hurr hurr", but overall I don't feel like any of the races are being 'stripped of identity' in terms of lore stuff thanks to their passives. And really, does every single game mechanic have to equal lore? Shouldn't the lore come more from actual story and quest stuff and the books you can find all over the place?