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New dungeons better be normal
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adriant1978✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »In case anyone missed it, here is ZOS explanation/justification for the dungeons/story thing:The story is connected to the Season of the Dragon in that, assisting Tharayya in getting both halves of the Wrathstone tablet in Frostvault and Depths of Malatar provides context for how Abnur Tharn has them in the prologue quest. If you do not do the Dungeons, that's fine, some other adventurers helped him... but if you did, its an awesome pay off to see your hard work in the Dungeons with your friends be rewarded with a cool story element, don't you think? It's not something that has happened before and we are excited to finally bring this experience to players who enjoy our group content.
I didn't miss it, it was a direct comment to what I posted there. I figured folks who wanted to know where this was attempted was following that thread out of curiosity.
I just posted it here for the benefit of anyone not following other threads; there are too many on this topic, but perhaps that shows how much people care about it.
Edited by adriant1978 on January 22, 2019 4:51PM2 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Casdha we're caught in an almost fallacious dilemma then.
On one hand players: I can't do this in a group.
On the other, ZoS: we designed it for groups.
Community: you should be able to do it in a group.
Then we have players: I could do it in a group, but I don't want to. I want to do it solo, but it's too hard.
Rest of the community: If you want me to pay for it, I shouldn't have to.
Indeed. I agree 100%. If the content isn't for you, boycott and add to the lost sales metric. Maybe the changes you want will come - - as per a previous comment, what to do about your discontent.
Personally, I'll group up and learn the dungeon to enhance my game experience, but that's my choice, not yours.Edited by mairwen85 on January 22, 2019 4:55PM4 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Casdha we're caught in an almost fallacious dilemma then.
On one hand players: I can't do this in a group.
On the other, ZoS: we designed it for groups.
Community: you should be able to do it in a group.
Then we have players: I could do it in a group, but I don't want to. I want to do it solo, but it's too hard.
Rest of the community: If you want me to pay for it, I shouldn't have to.
Indeed. I agree 100%. If the content isn't for you, boycott and add to the lost sales metric. Maybe the changes you want will come - - as per a previous comment, what to do about your discontent.
On a side note, I never said I wouldn't play it just that I wouldn't purchase it. I still understand and agree with other's viewpoints on this issue.Edited by Casdha on January 22, 2019 4:56PMProud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%2 -
FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »In case anyone missed it, here is ZOS explanation/justification for the dungeons/story thing:The story is connected to the Season of the Dragon in that, assisting Tharayya in getting both halves of the Wrathstone tablet in Frostvault and Depths of Malatar provides context for how Abnur Tharn has them in the prologue quest. If you do not do the Dungeons, that's fine, some other adventurers helped him... but if you did, its an awesome pay off to see your hard work in the Dungeons with your friends be rewarded with a cool story element, don't you think? It's not something that has happened before and we are excited to finally bring this experience to players who enjoy our group content.
Oh, so it's just a small information reward for those who complete the group part of the content, not a showstopper.
So why is everyone weeping like kittens in a blender? That's a perfectly acceptable approach from ZOS; everyone gets to do the story and core content, those that show a bit of initiative and bravery, get a bit extra.
1 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The reason we have people that don't know the bash command or just light attack is honestly because of the difficulty. I am not asking for overworld to be jumped in challenge. You shouldn't be punished for spending 10 minutes doing a quick quest.
Dungeons NEED to start to teach mechanics. Granted I think only *vet* needs one shot punishments, but Normal should punish you for literally not using any ability on your bar.2 -
IzzyStardust✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yeah and for Skoria, there’s even a one safe rock not on the path to stand on. On my healer or tank I’ve successfully completed Hard Mode even with very inexperienced pugs. ❤️N0TPLAYER2 wrote: »
Which dungeons do you think are harder? What makes them harder than the boss with the two air atros in COA2? Or Valkyn Skoria?
People seem to have different perceptions of difficulty. For example, my least favourite DLC is ICP, whereas I've seen people call that the easiest DLC dungeon.
Running the dungeon multiple times and learning the fine points of the mechanics will make any of them look easier. Running it once and declaring it "too hard" will make them "too hard".
The Ash Titan boss is pretty much a joke, the Air Attronachs don't really do anything, all you have to do for that fight is focus the Ash Titan while the tank keeps the Attros taunted and takes them for a stroll.
As for Skoria, its more of a DPS race than anything, and even if you fail to kill him before he destroys all the main platforms, as long as you have a good healer then you can survive the fire on the small islands.
As for which are more difficult?
ICP if your team has low DPS
FH if your team doesn't know/follow the final boss mechanics (happens with PuGs a LOT)
BF if your team doesn't know the mechanics or doesn't focus the smaller boss spawns for the final boss
RoM if your team doesn't know the mechanics for the final boss
FL if your team doesn't know the mechanics for the bone animals boss fight
SP final boss HM can be a literal RNG nightmare
MHK if your team doesn't know the mechanics (this one is a PuG killer for the most part)
MoS final boss HM can be difficult for some PuGs
I do always say: Never Ever shoot the air atros! XDEdited by IzzyStardust on January 22, 2019 6:56PM1 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭Few things here.
First off, normal mode base game dungeons (just my opinion here) should start at CP 160. DLC normal mode should start at CP300, just for the simple fact these are dungeons coming out well after the initial release of the game. This means after almost 5 years, unless you just got the game within the last 6 months, you should have "some" knowledge of your class and mechanics of your avatar and the NPC's your fighting.
DLC's are meant to be harder in normal mode because many players have been around a good while, and if they are going to pay for something (thru ESO plus or crowns or w/e) then they want something a little more challenging for the money. They have grown since the last dungeon's came out. They have done them 100's of times. They want something new, and they want something that isn't going to take 15 minutes to complete. Thereby, waiting for 3 or 6 more months till the next batch comes out.
I am mainly a PvP'er and if anyone has the right to complain it's us. Having to do PvE content where we (or maybe just myself) just don't give a crap about storylines and lore and all that. We want to get the gear that's going to help us kill other players. But ya know what? I HAVE done just about every dungeon in game in one form or another. I've done vMA, vDSA, Trails...all of that to accomplish my goal of having the best gear/tools when it comes to defeating other players.
My point is, if you want the best gear and tools for the job, ya need to work for it. Stop this sissy talk about "Story modes", man-(or woman) up and work for it. Join a guild, make new friends, do stuff together and everyone prospers. It make take you longer? But most of you are saying your "casual" anyway. So what difference does time make? Stop asking to be handed stuff simply because your not able to play as often. It's like asking for more money from your boss and saying "But I can only show up 2 days a week, instead of 5". It's not right. So please stop. Not trying to be elitest here. Just giving the simple facts of life.
Couple of things here, first of: If you bothered to read my post (OP’s) it was about making it so everyone could participate in the story, not just those that have spent a long time in the game and are gonna be able to do a vet level ‘normal’ dungeon.
Secondly, your comment was, in essence, just you glorifying yourself.
You clearly didn’t read the post and had the audacity to comment this.
New players literally just weeks into the game can complete normal DLC dungeons without issue. I know...because I have run multiple normal DLC dungeons with new players...they just arent as hard as you make them out to be.
I would love to watch players a few weeks old to the game, with zero playtime before that (not on an alt), do normal Scalecaller. Most likely, they will barely be out of level 50, or cp 160.
But most importantly, I would love to watch a run of those players without the help of a vet level player who knows the mechanics of the dungeon and the game as a whole. If I had to bet money on it, very very very few of those groups would even get passed the first boss because while that dungeon is pretty easy for Vet players on Normal, it is a pretty difficult normal mode. And the same goes for every dungeon since the Bloodroot and Falkreath DLCs.
True enough, I am CP900+(cant remember right now, havent played for months regularly) but in the case of the werewolf dungeons, when I ran it with my friends I had never run either one before, and I do believe we wiped a couple times, but it wasnt that difficult.
I also did attempt to run scalecaller with them as well...and they had a much harder time with that one, they couldnt pass it on first attempt.
The reality though is that most pugs have at least one veteran level player who has run the dungeon before and is able to explain the mechanics.1 -
dovakiin5574✭✭✭✭✭It will be just fine so long as you take half competent people in there. Learn the mechanics before you go in then it's all easy peasy.PAPSMEAR - Positively Against Paws SMEAR campaign - Say YES to crown crates2 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Yes, pugged normal Scalecaller on healer the first two times and ended in half done dungeons. original healer was kicked or left. Never forgot the dd who came and saw the poison boss with 5M health, stopped an typed: *** is this vetFew things here.
First off, normal mode base game dungeons (just my opinion here) should start at CP 160. DLC normal mode should start at CP300, just for the simple fact these are dungeons coming out well after the initial release of the game. This means after almost 5 years, unless you just got the game within the last 6 months, you should have "some" knowledge of your class and mechanics of your avatar and the NPC's your fighting.
DLC's are meant to be harder in normal mode because many players have been around a good while, and if they are going to pay for something (thru ESO plus or crowns or w/e) then they want something a little more challenging for the money. They have grown since the last dungeon's came out. They have done them 100's of times. They want something new, and they want something that isn't going to take 15 minutes to complete. Thereby, waiting for 3 or 6 more months till the next batch comes out.
I am mainly a PvP'er and if anyone has the right to complain it's us. Having to do PvE content where we (or maybe just myself) just don't give a crap about storylines and lore and all that. We want to get the gear that's going to help us kill other players. But ya know what? I HAVE done just about every dungeon in game in one form or another. I've done vMA, vDSA, Trails...all of that to accomplish my goal of having the best gear/tools when it comes to defeating other players.
My point is, if you want the best gear and tools for the job, ya need to work for it. Stop this sissy talk about "Story modes", man-(or woman) up and work for it. Join a guild, make new friends, do stuff together and everyone prospers. It make take you longer? But most of you are saying your "casual" anyway. So what difference does time make? Stop asking to be handed stuff simply because your not able to play as often. It's like asking for more money from your boss and saying "But I can only show up 2 days a week, instead of 5". It's not right. So please stop. Not trying to be elitest here. Just giving the simple facts of life.
Couple of things here, first of: If you bothered to read my post (OP’s) it was about making it so everyone could participate in the story, not just those that have spent a long time in the game and are gonna be able to do a vet level ‘normal’ dungeon.
Secondly, your comment was, in essence, just you glorifying yourself.
You clearly didn’t read the post and had the audacity to comment this.
New players literally just weeks into the game can complete normal DLC dungeons without issue. I know...because I have run multiple normal DLC dungeons with new players...they just arent as hard as you make them out to be.
I would love to watch players a few weeks old to the game, with zero playtime before that (not on an alt), do normal Scalecaller. Most likely, they will barely be out of level 50, or cp 160.
But most importantly, I would love to watch a run of those players without the help of a vet level player who knows the mechanics of the dungeon and the game as a whole. If I had to bet money on it, very very very few of those groups would even get passed the first boss because while that dungeon is pretty easy for Vet players on Normal, it is a pretty difficult normal mode. And the same goes for every dungeon since the Bloodroot and Falkreath DLCs.
True enough, I am CP900+(cant remember right now, havent played for months regularly) but in the case of the werewolf dungeons, when I ran it with my friends I had never run either one before, and I do believe we wiped a couple times, but it wasnt that difficult.
I also did attempt to run scalecaller with them as well...and they had a much harder time with that one, they couldnt pass it on first attempt.
The reality though is that most pugs have at least one veteran level player who has run the dungeon before and is able to explain the mechanics.
we wiped 5 times something the first time as we though we had to interact with the npc.
After that I just stood in center and it was easy, tank should block the pipes in vet but that can be skipped in normal if you have an decent healer.
Then did an guild run and got the story, farmed it later for the Jorvuld's Guidance set and it was clean runs.
Got the story two other times on alts.
March of sacrifices normal is pretty hard on an inexperienced tank. That dungeon would be fun with an fake tank.
Story in it is very well presented however.Edited by zaria on January 22, 2019 7:28PMGrinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭
Yes, pugged normal Scalecaller on healer the first two times and ended in half done dungeons. original healer was kicked or left. Never forgot the dd who came and saw the poison boss with 5M health, stopped an typed: *** is this vetFew things here.
First off, normal mode base game dungeons (just my opinion here) should start at CP 160. DLC normal mode should start at CP300, just for the simple fact these are dungeons coming out well after the initial release of the game. This means after almost 5 years, unless you just got the game within the last 6 months, you should have "some" knowledge of your class and mechanics of your avatar and the NPC's your fighting.
DLC's are meant to be harder in normal mode because many players have been around a good while, and if they are going to pay for something (thru ESO plus or crowns or w/e) then they want something a little more challenging for the money. They have grown since the last dungeon's came out. They have done them 100's of times. They want something new, and they want something that isn't going to take 15 minutes to complete. Thereby, waiting for 3 or 6 more months till the next batch comes out.
I am mainly a PvP'er and if anyone has the right to complain it's us. Having to do PvE content where we (or maybe just myself) just don't give a crap about storylines and lore and all that. We want to get the gear that's going to help us kill other players. But ya know what? I HAVE done just about every dungeon in game in one form or another. I've done vMA, vDSA, Trails...all of that to accomplish my goal of having the best gear/tools when it comes to defeating other players.
My point is, if you want the best gear and tools for the job, ya need to work for it. Stop this sissy talk about "Story modes", man-(or woman) up and work for it. Join a guild, make new friends, do stuff together and everyone prospers. It make take you longer? But most of you are saying your "casual" anyway. So what difference does time make? Stop asking to be handed stuff simply because your not able to play as often. It's like asking for more money from your boss and saying "But I can only show up 2 days a week, instead of 5". It's not right. So please stop. Not trying to be elitest here. Just giving the simple facts of life.
Couple of things here, first of: If you bothered to read my post (OP’s) it was about making it so everyone could participate in the story, not just those that have spent a long time in the game and are gonna be able to do a vet level ‘normal’ dungeon.
Secondly, your comment was, in essence, just you glorifying yourself.
You clearly didn’t read the post and had the audacity to comment this.
New players literally just weeks into the game can complete normal DLC dungeons without issue. I know...because I have run multiple normal DLC dungeons with new players...they just arent as hard as you make them out to be.
I would love to watch players a few weeks old to the game, with zero playtime before that (not on an alt), do normal Scalecaller. Most likely, they will barely be out of level 50, or cp 160.
But most importantly, I would love to watch a run of those players without the help of a vet level player who knows the mechanics of the dungeon and the game as a whole. If I had to bet money on it, very very very few of those groups would even get passed the first boss because while that dungeon is pretty easy for Vet players on Normal, it is a pretty difficult normal mode. And the same goes for every dungeon since the Bloodroot and Falkreath DLCs.
True enough, I am CP900+(cant remember right now, havent played for months regularly) but in the case of the werewolf dungeons, when I ran it with my friends I had never run either one before, and I do believe we wiped a couple times, but it wasnt that difficult.
I also did attempt to run scalecaller with them as well...and they had a much harder time with that one, they couldnt pass it on first attempt.
The reality though is that most pugs have at least one veteran level player who has run the dungeon before and is able to explain the mechanics.
we wiped 5 times something the first time as we though we had to interact with the npc.
After that I just stood in center and it was easy, tank should block the pipes in vet but that can be skipped in normal if you have an decent healer.
Then did an guild run and got the story, farmed it later for the Jorvuld's Guidance set and it was clean runs.
Got the story two other times on alts.
March of sacrifices normal is pretty hard on an inexperienced tank. That dungeon would be fun with an fake tank.
Story in it is very well presented however.
MoS is the best dungeon to date IMO, great design, interesting story, good set, nice special memento. Struggled first time I tanked it on vet, but I farmed it for purple Blood Moon jewels over a period of 2 weeks and can do it with my eyes closed now. I always take people to the Hunting Grounds as a lot of people are still not aware of the reward.Edited by FlyingSwan on January 22, 2019 7:50PM0 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭Dungeons aren't supposed to be a beach vacation. Assemble a group of 4 and dive right in. If you have no idea what to do, even better. The coop play and discussion to figure out how to beat obstacles is a great adventure. It is a MMO after all. At the end of that journey, you'll look back at it as a good time. If you use the dungeon finder you're gonna get a variety of groups, some very impatient, and some like-minded adventurers.5 -
Libonotus✭✭✭✭✭Dungeons aren't supposed to be a beach vacation. Assemble a group of 4 and dive right in. If you have no idea what to do, even better. The coop play and discussion to figure out how to beat obstacles is a great adventure. It is a MMO after all. At the end of that journey, you'll look back at it as a good time. If you use the dungeon finder you're gonna get a variety of groups, some very impatient, and some like-minded adventurers.
We’re discussing dungeons that are tied to an actual main plot, not dungeons in general. Many people will miss out on a good chunk of the plot cause they’ll either be unable to complete the dungeon or get bored of being wiped due to the increasing difficulty of new dungeons that are on the normal difficulty.11 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Casdha we're caught in an almost fallacious dilemma then.
On one hand players: I can't do this in a group.
On the other, ZoS: we designed it for groups.
Community: you should be able to do it in a group.
Then we have players: I could do it in a group, but I don't want to. I want to do it solo, but it's too hard.
Rest of the community: If you want me to pay for it, I shouldn't have to.
Indeed. I agree 100%. If the content isn't for you, boycott and add to the lost sales metric. Maybe the changes you want will come - - as per a previous comment, what to do about your discontent.
Personally, I'll group up and learn the dungeon to enhance my game experience, but that's my choice, not yours.
for me not paying is a matter of... do I lose proper acess to part of the game that I enjoy the most - housing, just to make a point about DLC dungeons? I don't know how to show ZoS how much I personaly dislike DLC dungeons and their ever escalating difficulty and getting them in randoms (which btw - is part of the reason why I queue up very rarely nowadays, I like running dungeons, but I don't like running DLC dungeons) other then to speak up on the forums. becasue as long as I want to keep playing with housing - ESO plus is a must. its difficult enough to do something creative with ESO plus slots you get, its downright frustrating trying to decorate say a manor with only 350 housing slots you get WITHOUT ESO plus.
so where do i go from here other then speak up on the forums?
my personal preference is solo mode. but there are people (not you) who think even that is too much to ask for. git gud or gtfo
edited to add. /takes a deep breath. every, single. one of you who is advocating "just getting a group together, its fine, even in a pug" CAN COMPENSATE FOR SHORT COMINGS OF THE REST OF YOUR GROUP. as long as the group makes an effort to listen to directions, you can compensate for the rest. NOT ALL OF US CAN DO THAT. so some of us end up in a group of players who listen and learn and try to adopt to mechanics and spend hours wiping and wiping and wiping, becasue in the end - either we have no dps, or we are not reacting quickly enough to mechanics or any number of things. its easy to say "you can do it, its fun" when you are wearing optimized gear , using optimized spec and alone can pull 50k damage. most of us NO WHERE NEAR THAT. /takes another deep breathEdited by Linaleah on January 23, 2019 12:31AMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***6 -
Chirru✭✭✭✭KhajiitFelix wrote: »But what about tryhards that complain the game is so easy?
They can go and play Wildstar.
...oh no, they can't anymore, can they?
Wonder why that is?
94 agrees for the OP - not bad.
Only slightly more than the 2 or 3 the elitists normally get.
The truth is that you need multiple levels in games.
The pros will moan about this, as they like to feel special, but it has been the way of games since they first came into existence and that is for very good reason.
They should never, ever, cut people off from parts of the game.
Especially parts of the game that carry the storyline.
Most of the people playing and paying for this game are not high end, endgame players.
A game should reflect its userbase.
Spot on...agree 100%5 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Spot on...agree 100%
Not really.
Any game that boasted wanting to return to 40 man raids was DoA. I am sorry if you didn't know that 40 peeps organization is an utter nightmare.
Hint: The highest peak of MMO's playerbase they were putting the big bad boss at the end of a raid....far far away from non raid players.Edited by karekiz on January 23, 2019 2:45AM1 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭...
DLC dungeons are NOT puggable by average casual player, especially most recent ones. THAT is an issue.
Agreed. The question is whether they should be. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but ZoS' decision to involve them with story suggests they agree future dlc dungeons should be.
ZoS regularly revisits oldder content to nerf it. This latest DLC will be no exception. Nor will future dungeons.Linaleah wrote:
no, not mine. I don't leave a group until its me and one other player and we've been waiting for 10 minutes to back fill, only to have players that come in - leave too.
other common reaction I've seen is people leaving after one wipe.
Sometimes people look at the group composition and decide it's better to drop -- which I think is pathetic personally.
People also leave after 1 wipe when they believe that the group is not good enough to get on (especially on normal).
Just want to say I went into a normal Fang Lair for a pledge the other day. I was healer at cp795 and the Dps was 810. The second dps and tank, both max CP, dropped as soon as they ported in. One said "too long" and the other didn't bother saying anything.PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS4 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭How about this: players play the game, skill up, advance and progress until they can complete the new dungeons.
How about this: players play the game, skill up, advance and progress until they can complete the new dungeons and then never get to actually meet each other because of real life issues and daily routines.
And just to prevent you from labeling this as an excuse, I didn't cry for nerfs to vMA when it first came out, I knew I could get better and I eventually got it on my vampire stamblade.
So, it's not a l2p issue because I love challenges, I come from much harder games, and I know that the main issue with vet dungeons is players' knowledge of the actual mechanics.
The problem lies in finding people willing to achieve such goals and you can be damn sure I won't be spending my free time yelling "LFG" in zone/guild chat to find someone.
Oh, and forgot to say, I wouldn't mind at all to get all geared up for vet dungeon if there was a legit solo mode but apparently asking for such a thing irks some social life white knights and gets them to says illogical things, like " this in an MMO so you have to play with other people".
vMA is not crucial to the story. There's also a normal mode that's considerably easier. Even so, no one is missing story content by not doing maelstrom arena (in either format). Unlike the upcoming DLC dungeons which have been explicitly stated to be intrinsically tied to the year-long story of Year of the Dragon.
This thread has literally nothing to do with vet instances. No one here wants to touch vet content or have ZoS nerf it. All people in this thread are asking for is either normal version to be easier than the current DLC normal modes or a soloable story-mode for people who don't care about gear or monster helms or keys or anything else so they can enjoy the story at their place to get the full value of the Year of the Dragon.PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS8 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Why are people doing random normals at max CP? Outside the event....
DLC dungeons are NOT puggable by average casual player, especially most recent ones. THAT is an issue.
Agreed. The question is whether they should be. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but ZoS' decision to involve them with story suggests they agree future dlc dungeons should be.
ZoS regularly revisits oldder content to nerf it. This latest DLC will be no exception. Nor will future dungeons.Linaleah wrote:
no, not mine. I don't leave a group until its me and one other player and we've been waiting for 10 minutes to back fill, only to have players that come in - leave too.
other common reaction I've seen is people leaving after one wipe.
Sometimes people look at the group composition and decide it's better to drop -- which I think is pathetic personally.
People also leave after 1 wipe when they believe that the group is not good enough to get on (especially on normal).
Just want to say I went into a normal Fang Lair for a pledge the other day. I was healer at cp795 and the Dps was 810. The second dps and tank, both max CP, dropped as soon as they ported in. One said "too long" and the other didn't bother saying anything.
Just queue for the dungeons you want.
Note that its better to queue for an pledge dungeon even if you don't need keys simply as its give better players and less chance people dropping out, this is more an issue in vet however.
But also for normal DLC as many do the standard dungeons in vet and the dlc in normal for pledges.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Why are people doing random normals at max CP? Outside the event....
DLC dungeons are NOT puggable by average casual player, especially most recent ones. THAT is an issue.
Agreed. The question is whether they should be. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but ZoS' decision to involve them with story suggests they agree future dlc dungeons should be.
ZoS regularly revisits oldder content to nerf it. This latest DLC will be no exception. Nor will future dungeons.Linaleah wrote:
no, not mine. I don't leave a group until its me and one other player and we've been waiting for 10 minutes to back fill, only to have players that come in - leave too.
other common reaction I've seen is people leaving after one wipe.
Sometimes people look at the group composition and decide it's better to drop -- which I think is pathetic personally.
People also leave after 1 wipe when they believe that the group is not good enough to get on (especially on normal).
Just want to say I went into a normal Fang Lair for a pledge the other day. I was healer at cp795 and the Dps was 810. The second dps and tank, both max CP, dropped as soon as they ported in. One said "too long" and the other didn't bother saying anything.
Just queue for the dungeons you want.
Note that its better to queue for an pledge dungeon even if you don't need keys simply as its give better players and less chance people dropping out, this is more an issue in vet however.
But also for normal DLC as many do the standard dungeons in vet and the dlc in normal for pledges.
Maybe for random daily XP because it's still faster than vet. I don't care if max CP wanna do vet or normal. You do you. I generally do the pledges on vet, except dlc ones unless I'm with a good group I know. I wasn't so I did the first 2 vetHM and then just normal for the DLC one.
That's kind of the point. People, even max CP, rarely want to pug the current DLC on normal.PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS1 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yeah. I would like to see the DLCs more in line with the originals.
Less like Vet Falk. What a nightmare.0 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oh wowThanks for the feedback folks. We are reading all of it both in regards to the story elements and balance. Some specific points...
Re: Hard Mode Balance - Keep the information coming. This is the first iteration for everyone to see and the first chance for players to dive in and get a chance to tackle it. We will be making adjustments in future PTS updates so, please revisit this often and let us know what you think.
Re: Normal Balance - We have heard you loud and clear on this too and we are looking at some of the abilities that are causing pain points and will be making adjustments as well.1 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »Oh wowThanks for the feedback folks. We are reading all of it both in regards to the story elements and balance. Some specific points...
Re: Hard Mode Balance - Keep the information coming. This is the first iteration for everyone to see and the first chance for players to dive in and get a chance to tackle it. We will be making adjustments in future PTS updates so, please revisit this often and let us know what you think.
Re: Normal Balance - We have heard you loud and clear on this too and we are looking at some of the abilities that are causing pain points and will be making adjustments as well.
I was just gonna share the same thing Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%1 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
What I'm saying is that it absolutely makes sense that people want a solo-story mode for DLC dungeons because even when they do "suck it up" and try to do it, it still remains difficult to accomplish because:
[*] People don't want to pug DLC because it takes too long
[*] If they DO pug it, they don't want to wait even longer for people to actually listen through the quest and dialogue
I've completed vet DLC dungeons, including some HM versions. I've completed vMA. I'm perfectly capable, unlike some people who have legitimate reasons for wanting to run normal.
You know what I haven't done? Actually listened to about 90% of dungeon quests. Because when I go with a group, regardless of difficulty, I am mindful of their time so IF I can doing the quest, I quickly click,click,click through it and rush off to catch up with those who aren't and let them know at end that I need to turn in and hope that at least one person will wait a couple minutes (necessary on dungeons like BC and VoM where it takes awhile before the option to talk to the NPC comes up).
I'd love a solo story-mode version that removes/alters mechanics that require additional players. No dungeon gear needed and story mode wouldn't count for pledges. Green, overland gear and the skill point for the quest, that's it.
PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS2 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You know what I haven't done? Actually listened to about 90% of dungeon quests. Because when I go with a group, regardless of difficulty, I am mindful of their time so IF I can doing the quest, I quickly click,click,click through it and rush off to catch up with those who aren't and let them know at end that I need to turn in and hope that at least one person will wait a couple minutes (necessary on dungeons like BC and VoM where it takes awhile before the option to talk to the NPC comes up).
To be fair the new DLC <Ones were generally talking about> don't work like that. There really isn't any "talking" mid dungeon. At the start sure, at the end, but most comes from in game "cutscenes". The old dungeons <***Which need to be reworked****> tend to do the whole "Click click click" thing. The starting conversation can be done at any time with nobody in group so that doesn't exactly count, but I *do* agree that the game should *never* kick you if players leave. Which would in turn fix your issue at the end scene. It causes problems because the classic dungeon quests are poorly done, they can break, they can kick people before turn in, people miss steps, etc. DLC Works like this -> Pick up quest -> Kill bosses -> NPC's talk to the entire team at "X" spot. You tend to not be able to skip it, hell in Fang lair bosses will *not* spawn until the talking is over.I'd love a solo story-mode version that removes/alters mechanics that require additional players. No dungeon gear needed and story mode wouldn't count for pledges. Green, overland gear and the skill point for the quest, that's it.
That's fine, but group content design should be penalized. As solo you can't "CC" break from certain mechanics <Pounce for example in FL/MHK>. Its not about just the gear. I don't honestly care if people get green quality dungeon gear as the monster set is already the "reward" gear wise for vet. I am weary of devs simplifying mechanics because making 2 instances with 2 modes + HM is already hard. Now were adding yet another 2 to that table, and I doubt most dungeon haters will buy it anyway in the end.
0 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You know what I haven't done? Actually listened to about 90% of dungeon quests. Because when I go with a group, regardless of difficulty, I am mindful of their time so IF I can doing the quest, I quickly click,click,click through it and rush off to catch up with those who aren't and let them know at end that I need to turn in and hope that at least one person will wait a couple minutes (necessary on dungeons like BC and VoM where it takes awhile before the option to talk to the NPC comes up).
To be fair the new DLC <Ones were generally talking about> don't work like that. There really isn't any "talking" mid dungeon. At the start sure, at the end, but most comes from in game "cutscenes". The old dungeons <***Which need to be reworked****> tend to do the whole "Click click click" thing. The starting conversation can be done at any time with nobody in group so that doesn't exactly count, but I *do* agree that the game should *never* kick you if players leave. Which would in turn fix your issue at the end scene. It causes problems because the classic dungeon quests are poorly done, they can break, they can kick people before turn in, people miss steps, etc. DLC Works like this -> Pick up quest -> Kill bosses -> NPC's talk to the entire team at "X" spot. You tend to not be able to skip it, hell in Fang lair bosses will *not* spawn until the talking is over.
Not exactly. I get what you're saying but if I were taking my time, I would pause as "cutscenes" happen. (They're not cutscenes, but rather are non-interactable ambient dialogue). In MoS, if your group is moving fast enough, you can be up the path and already killing the trash mobs before Hanu is killed. This happened to me the first time I did it and I had no clue wtf was going on. I mean, I could piece it together contexually after the fact, but I didn't get to go slow and actually watch things play out.
Same with Scalecaller Peak. You don't have to interact with the NPCs across the chasm to advance the quest so nobody waits to listen. Kill the trash mobs and immediately turn left and head into the tunnels. Good for making it easier to complete the quest, bad for actually experiencing what the quest actually is.
Edit to add: I'm not saying the above is bad. In fact, it's fine especially when you've run the dungeon dozens of times either farming gear or just over the course of its life on the servers. But it does make experiencing the associated quest that has *some* measure of a story to it a little more of a pain the first time doing it and with a lot of dungeons now having mechanics that need more than one person to complete, it makes soloing not an option for those that want to take their time.
Edited by heaven13 on January 23, 2019 8:41PMPC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS3 -
SiAScORCH✭✭✭✭FlyingSwan wrote: »KhajiitFelix wrote: »All the dungeons out now are easy enough. It's all about learning and understanding mechanics.
For vet DLC dungeons I have simple requirements:
Discord required.
CP500+
Proper build/gear, 25-30k DPS
I've ran them all, no issues the most important thing is having people communicate and actually listen.
Not everyone wants to talk with strangers.
I get that, but I don't trust random people to actually know mechanics and listen. It's much easier to get them to comprehend when you're telling it in their ear vs having to trust they read chat.
talking usually refers to both voice AND text chat. some people sometimes would just rather play on their own.
Sure, and that's why you run into so many issues on vet DLC dungeons. I on the other hand have not.
actualy, i run into issues PUGGING them on NORMAL. WHILE communicating. text is still communication.
every single person who goes "this dungeons are easy" is either playing with a premade group where the know exactly how well their mates are performing WHILE excluding people who are in their view underperforming (which is like... majority of ESO population) and/or are such high performers that they can quite literally compensate for under performing group members.
the rest of us make do with whoever we get, and/or people we like to play with, but that are NOT god's gift to gaming. and herein lays a problem. even on normal DLC dungeons are very VERY unforgiving to such people. forger vet for a moment. NORMAL.
so fine. half the DLC's are useless to us despite a fair chunk of us paying for acess to them via ps plus - so that's half the updates that we don't get to do much with, unless we get lucky and/or have someone take pity on us. but now. NOW they are actualy part of the overreaching story art.
please. for the love of god. STOP with "git gud" just.. stop. its not happening. for a moment instead... just try. just a little bit, TRY to maybe see it from a perspective of someone who is NOT you and doesn't play like you do.
and btw, when I say people who would rather not talk to others, I mean.. they would rather NOT GROUP WITH OTHERS AT ALL.
not everyone likes to play in a group.
P.S. btw... consider for a moment. just for a moment, that its NOT the lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k.
It is lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k. I can pull 15k on a PvP toon in PvE content and that's not even with proper gear. Research means knowing your rotation, build and gear. Thus lack of rotation = bad dps.
sigh. I mean I'm not surprised that you are not getting it, but.. you are not getting it. knowing rotation =/= being able to execute it. especially in ESO that doesn't have tab targeting, has this mess of a system called LA weaving/animation canceling in addition to bar swapping. oh and latency. latency messes you up in this game in a way that it doesn't in other mmos...
I just... there is this russian saying that roughly translates as "someone with full belly will never understand someone who is starving" I feel like it applies here.
and you know the irony here, is for all this "you have to be social, its an MMO" admonitions from all these people, you all are also perfectly ok with kicking people out of groups if they don;'t perform to your specifications, forgetting that those people are PEOPLE, they are someone's friends, they are probably people in this thread and others like it. they could be (and often are) perfectly nice people that just happen not to be god's gift to gaming. off with their heads! /slam the kick button
I do get it, you don't. I was new, and I'm a way better player than I was back then. If you get kicked then accept it. I'm not about to be punished and have to sit through a miserable dungeon because you can't better yourself. Nope.
you don't get it. I'm a better player then i used to be as well. I didn't used to be able to solo early normal dungeons or those 2 craglorn story quests that are group based. now I can. however, personal improvement =/= enough for ever growing demands of the the new content, especially with people like YOU.
I'm sorry people like YOU whine about wanting stuff easier.
personal anecdote. I tried tanking vet cradle of shadows once. we did fine until we got to that boss in a dark room with braziers. there is a part where she teleports across the room and starts a cast that MUST be interrupted, or... death. so what I had to do, is find her, get close enough for much charge to work, charge her and bash her - before the cast finishes. and I failed every single time by being just a second too slow. because my reflexes are not perfect, becasue my aiming is not perfect. I understood the mechanic. I made an effort to execute the mechanic,. but I wasn't fast enough to do it.
but you say, dps with, I think its crushing shock? destro staff ability with morph that does interrupts - could do it! we didn't have one in a group, cause we formed a group on a basis of people we wanted to be IN the group, healer didn't have one, dps were stam. so that interrupt HAD to be on me. and I couldn't do it. boo for me, right? git gud?? git faster? I can't. as I age I will ONLY get slower.
In all fairness, that attack is a very basic L2P: if you cannot interrupt it then you block it, and blocking is a basic response that all players should know by the time they take the training wheels off in NORMAL dungeons, let alone by the time they are thinking about vets.
All you've really done with your outburst, is underline the problem here: Players who do not take the time to learn basic game abilities, diving into certain content then QQing the game is too hard, rather than considering that they perhaps have not learned the basics.
Anyone who cannot block by the time they are at the level required to enter vCoS is a bad player, there's not really any other way to say that. It's a bit like you asking if you can drive my Porsche on a track day, then halfway through the first lap you tell me you've not passed your basic road driving test.
ffs. how. HOW do you keep missing the "not quickly enough" part?
I can block and I can bash and I can switch targets and I can aim.. eventually. this is not a matter of understanding. this is a matter of quick enough EXECUTION.
The not quickly enough? The one shot mechanics don't even one shot you on normal. Hell, half of the one shot mechanics from vet HM dungeons won't even one shot you on vet if you're not doing hard mode. Regardless, you see a big red growing AOE, it literally gives you two seconds before it happens. When you have to block, you literally see the person rearing back to heavy attack. Ray Charles would even be able to react to that and he is blind.2 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FlyingSwan wrote: »KhajiitFelix wrote: »All the dungeons out now are easy enough. It's all about learning and understanding mechanics.
For vet DLC dungeons I have simple requirements:
Discord required.
CP500+
Proper build/gear, 25-30k DPS
I've ran them all, no issues the most important thing is having people communicate and actually listen.
Not everyone wants to talk with strangers.
I get that, but I don't trust random people to actually know mechanics and listen. It's much easier to get them to comprehend when you're telling it in their ear vs having to trust they read chat.
talking usually refers to both voice AND text chat. some people sometimes would just rather play on their own.
Sure, and that's why you run into so many issues on vet DLC dungeons. I on the other hand have not.
actualy, i run into issues PUGGING them on NORMAL. WHILE communicating. text is still communication.
every single person who goes "this dungeons are easy" is either playing with a premade group where the know exactly how well their mates are performing WHILE excluding people who are in their view underperforming (which is like... majority of ESO population) and/or are such high performers that they can quite literally compensate for under performing group members.
the rest of us make do with whoever we get, and/or people we like to play with, but that are NOT god's gift to gaming. and herein lays a problem. even on normal DLC dungeons are very VERY unforgiving to such people. forger vet for a moment. NORMAL.
so fine. half the DLC's are useless to us despite a fair chunk of us paying for acess to them via ps plus - so that's half the updates that we don't get to do much with, unless we get lucky and/or have someone take pity on us. but now. NOW they are actualy part of the overreaching story art.
please. for the love of god. STOP with "git gud" just.. stop. its not happening. for a moment instead... just try. just a little bit, TRY to maybe see it from a perspective of someone who is NOT you and doesn't play like you do.
and btw, when I say people who would rather not talk to others, I mean.. they would rather NOT GROUP WITH OTHERS AT ALL.
not everyone likes to play in a group.
P.S. btw... consider for a moment. just for a moment, that its NOT the lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k.
It is lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k. I can pull 15k on a PvP toon in PvE content and that's not even with proper gear. Research means knowing your rotation, build and gear. Thus lack of rotation = bad dps.
sigh. I mean I'm not surprised that you are not getting it, but.. you are not getting it. knowing rotation =/= being able to execute it. especially in ESO that doesn't have tab targeting, has this mess of a system called LA weaving/animation canceling in addition to bar swapping. oh and latency. latency messes you up in this game in a way that it doesn't in other mmos...
I just... there is this russian saying that roughly translates as "someone with full belly will never understand someone who is starving" I feel like it applies here.
and you know the irony here, is for all this "you have to be social, its an MMO" admonitions from all these people, you all are also perfectly ok with kicking people out of groups if they don;'t perform to your specifications, forgetting that those people are PEOPLE, they are someone's friends, they are probably people in this thread and others like it. they could be (and often are) perfectly nice people that just happen not to be god's gift to gaming. off with their heads! /slam the kick button
I do get it, you don't. I was new, and I'm a way better player than I was back then. If you get kicked then accept it. I'm not about to be punished and have to sit through a miserable dungeon because you can't better yourself. Nope.
you don't get it. I'm a better player then i used to be as well. I didn't used to be able to solo early normal dungeons or those 2 craglorn story quests that are group based. now I can. however, personal improvement =/= enough for ever growing demands of the the new content, especially with people like YOU.
I'm sorry people like YOU whine about wanting stuff easier.
personal anecdote. I tried tanking vet cradle of shadows once. we did fine until we got to that boss in a dark room with braziers. there is a part where she teleports across the room and starts a cast that MUST be interrupted, or... death. so what I had to do, is find her, get close enough for much charge to work, charge her and bash her - before the cast finishes. and I failed every single time by being just a second too slow. because my reflexes are not perfect, becasue my aiming is not perfect. I understood the mechanic. I made an effort to execute the mechanic,. but I wasn't fast enough to do it.
but you say, dps with, I think its crushing shock? destro staff ability with morph that does interrupts - could do it! we didn't have one in a group, cause we formed a group on a basis of people we wanted to be IN the group, healer didn't have one, dps were stam. so that interrupt HAD to be on me. and I couldn't do it. boo for me, right? git gud?? git faster? I can't. as I age I will ONLY get slower.
In all fairness, that attack is a very basic L2P: if you cannot interrupt it then you block it, and blocking is a basic response that all players should know by the time they take the training wheels off in NORMAL dungeons, let alone by the time they are thinking about vets.
All you've really done with your outburst, is underline the problem here: Players who do not take the time to learn basic game abilities, diving into certain content then QQing the game is too hard, rather than considering that they perhaps have not learned the basics.
Anyone who cannot block by the time they are at the level required to enter vCoS is a bad player, there's not really any other way to say that. It's a bit like you asking if you can drive my Porsche on a track day, then halfway through the first lap you tell me you've not passed your basic road driving test.
ffs. how. HOW do you keep missing the "not quickly enough" part?
I can block and I can bash and I can switch targets and I can aim.. eventually. this is not a matter of understanding. this is a matter of quick enough EXECUTION.
The not quickly enough? The one shot mechanics don't even one shot you on normal. Hell, half of the one shot mechanics from vet HM dungeons won't even one shot you on vet if you're not doing hard mode. Regardless, you see a big red growing AOE, it literally gives you two seconds before it happens. When you have to block, you literally see the person rearing back to heavy attack. Ray Charles would even be able to react to that and he is blind.
oh its you again. it must be nice to have perfect latency, perfect reflexes, really bad understanding of math (typical health of a healer or dps - 16 to 18 k - typical one shot damage - 20k+) and zero compassion.
whatever. good for you that these things are os not a problem for you, that you'd rather insult other people for being beneath you in their video game skills.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***11
