The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
New dungeons better be normal
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Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think a Story Mode for dungeons is a good idea. Why not? Just have no enemies in the dungeon and just be able to go through and explore and do all the story content.2 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »I think a Story Mode for dungeons is a good idea. Why not? Just have no enemies in the dungeon and just be able to go through and explore and do all the story content.
I personally wouldn't go that far. Some fighting needs to take place for the story to retain its meaning. That is why I suggest Story mode should be tuned to Delve difficulty with Delve type drops (Not to include dungeon sets, Zone overland sets only).
In addition Completion on Group Normal difficulty as a solo player should increase the quality of the drops since your not splitting them 4 ways.Edited by Casdha on January 21, 2019 4:57PMProud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%6 -
KittyHazWares✭✭✭Any dungeon can be annoying and take longer than it needs to, depending on the caliber of potato you get in dungeon finder. I usually have to carry.
I’ve seen some sh.... shtuff..
Once I saw a guy that had 1 sword and a free hand, just light attacking like he’s in TES VEdited by KittyHazWares on January 21, 2019 5:04PMXbox One NA3 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭To be honest, I'm not going through 10 pages of bickering, skipped after page 1. But why is this thread even a thing? If it's the start of a story, then it should be most accessible on normal difficulty setting. Isn't the story argument the reason why overland content is so stupidly easy?
If you want some e-peen flexing, you'll choose vet or hm anyway. So as elitists, why even bother with how difficult normal is?Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on January 21, 2019 5:05PM10 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Chilly-McFreeze
In most cases, normal sets the tone for vet;serves as a training mode for the harder mode. Most older dungeons don't adequately prepare players for the vet version.this is detrimental to players of all levels as the impact can be very frustrating, as per comments in this thread. As such I run a dungeon normal pre vet to get an idea of what's in store.
Story related may be different and provide an exception to that expectation. We'll have to wait and see.Edited by mairwen85 on January 21, 2019 5:35PM0 -
Libonotus✭✭✭✭✭KhajiitFelix wrote: »All the dungeons out now are easy enough. It's all about learning and understanding mechanics.
For vet DLC dungeons I have simple requirements:
Discord required.
CP500+
Proper build/gear, 25-30k DPS
I've ran them all, no issues the most important thing is having people communicate and actually listen.
Not everyone wants to talk with strangers.
I get that, but I don't trust random people to actually know mechanics and listen. It's much easier to get them to comprehend when you're telling it in their ear vs having to trust they read chat.
talking usually refers to both voice AND text chat. some people sometimes would just rather play on their own.
Sure, and that's why you run into so many issues on vet DLC dungeons. I on the other hand have not.
actualy, i run into issues PUGGING them on NORMAL. WHILE communicating. text is still communication.
every single person who goes "this dungeons are easy" is either playing with a premade group where the know exactly how well their mates are performing WHILE excluding people who are in their view underperforming (which is like... majority of ESO population) and/or are such high performers that they can quite literally compensate for under performing group members.
the rest of us make do with whoever we get, and/or people we like to play with, but that are NOT god's gift to gaming. and herein lays a problem. even on normal DLC dungeons are very VERY unforgiving to such people. forger vet for a moment. NORMAL.
so fine. half the DLC's are useless to us despite a fair chunk of us paying for acess to them via ps plus - so that's half the updates that we don't get to do much with, unless we get lucky and/or have someone take pity on us. but now. NOW they are actualy part of the overreaching story art.
please. for the love of god. STOP with "git gud" just.. stop. its not happening. for a moment instead... just try. just a little bit, TRY to maybe see it from a perspective of someone who is NOT you and doesn't play like you do.
and btw, when I say people who would rather not talk to others, I mean.. they would rather NOT GROUP WITH OTHERS AT ALL.
not everyone likes to play in a group.
P.S. btw... consider for a moment. just for a moment, that its NOT the lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k.
It is lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k. I can pull 15k on a PvP toon in PvE content and that's not even with proper gear. Research means knowing your rotation, build and gear. Thus lack of rotation = bad dps.
sigh. I mean I'm not surprised that you are not getting it, but.. you are not getting it. knowing rotation =/= being able to execute it. especially in ESO that doesn't have tab targeting, has this mess of a system called LA weaving/animation canceling in addition to bar swapping. oh and latency. latency messes you up in this game in a way that it doesn't in other mmos...
I just... there is this russian saying that roughly translates as "someone with full belly will never understand someone who is starving" I feel like it applies here.
and you know the irony here, is for all this "you have to be social, its an MMO" admonitions from all these people, you all are also perfectly ok with kicking people out of groups if they don;'t perform to your specifications, forgetting that those people are PEOPLE, they are someone's friends, they are probably people in this thread and others like it. they could be (and often are) perfectly nice people that just happen not to be god's gift to gaming. off with their heads! /slam the kick button
I do get it, you don't. I was new, and I'm a way better player than I was back then. If you get kicked then accept it. I'm not about to be punished and have to sit through a miserable dungeon because you can't better yourself. Nope.
you don't get it. I'm a better player then i used to be as well. I didn't used to be able to solo early normal dungeons or those 2 craglorn story quests that are group based. now I can. however, personal improvement =/= enough for ever growing demands of the the new content, especially with people like YOU.
I'm sorry people like YOU whine about wanting stuff easier.
Toxic2 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭Sooo.. did you guys see the new dungeon? Because it looks like the hardest dungeon yet xD2 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No. I'm xbox so can't check out the test server.
Would love to hear what the posters in this thread think, especially OP.1 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭
^ why I am never doing dungeons and refuse to try them for the first time bc apparently I’m going to be kicked out for being “carried” and not good enough for a NORMAL MODE.Any dungeon can be annoying and take longer than it needs to, depending on the caliber of potato you get in dungeon finder. I usually have to carry.
I’ve seen some sh.... shtuff..
Once I saw a guy that had 1 sword and a free hand, just light attacking like he’s in TES V3 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »
^ why I am never doing dungeons and refuse to try them for the first time bc apparently I’m going to be kicked out for being “carried” and not good enough for a NORMAL MODE.Any dungeon can be annoying and take longer than it needs to, depending on the caliber of potato you get in dungeon finder. I usually have to carry.
I’ve seen some sh.... shtuff..
Once I saw a guy that had 1 sword and a free hand, just light attacking like he’s in TES V
^ does this mean you walk around with 1 sword and a free hand, just light attacking like you're in TES V?2 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sooo.. did you guys see the new dungeon? Because it looks like the hardest dungeon yet xD
I'm gonna give it a shot myself later today, but I already tried a little last night and I couldn't even solo the Storm Atronach just north of the Valley of Scars wayshrine in Craglorn on PTS, so I don't expect getting past the first area in either of the new dungeons.Edited by Casdha on January 22, 2019 2:10PMProud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%0 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭
My main has a double handed mace, and frankly idgaf about the “meta” or mechanics right now as I like playing the game my way.Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »
^ why I am never doing dungeons and refuse to try them for the first time bc apparently I’m going to be kicked out for being “carried” and not good enough for a NORMAL MODE.Any dungeon can be annoying and take longer than it needs to, depending on the caliber of potato you get in dungeon finder. I usually have to carry.
I’ve seen some sh.... shtuff..
Once I saw a guy that had 1 sword and a free hand, just light attacking like he’s in TES V
^ does this mean you walk around with 1 sword and a free hand, just light attacking like you're in TES V?
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mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »
My main has a double handed mace, and frankly idgaf about the “meta” or mechanics right now as I like playing the game my way.Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »
^ why I am never doing dungeons and refuse to try them for the first time bc apparently I’m going to be kicked out for being “carried” and not good enough for a NORMAL MODE.Any dungeon can be annoying and take longer than it needs to, depending on the caliber of potato you get in dungeon finder. I usually have to carry.
I’ve seen some sh.... shtuff..
Once I saw a guy that had 1 sword and a free hand, just light attacking like he’s in TES V
^ does this mean you walk around with 1 sword and a free hand, just light attacking like you're in TES V?
OK. Cool. Just wanted to know what in that post specifically targeted you. Or why you felt that it did -- or if you were simply alluding to something else... if you were, please enlighten us on what that allusion may be to instead. Thank you.0 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭No soloing these dungeons from me, I could not figure out a way to avoid or break the stun that came with this.
Edit: Not sharing where this is, I think it is blurry enough to not be a spoiler.
Edited by Casdha on January 22, 2019 2:53PMProud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%0 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yes, but I'm not gonna buy it if I can't solo it. I have yet to buy or play any of the Dungeon DLCs and I'm not gonna start now.Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%5 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Yes, but I'm not gonna buy it if I can't solo it. I have yet to buy or play any of the Dungeon DLCs and I'm not gonna start now.
Isn't that self defeatist and perpetuating the issue you have with the content (and perhaps a little puerile)? If I were one-shotted for 37k damage, I'd be asking what is 'Frenzied Pummeling'? Is it an AoE that is clearly flagged and avoidable? You say it came with a stun, was there some cue that proceeded it, gesture, audio, visual, etc. Is it interruptible? Could I two man it? Maybe a 2nd pair of eyes would help see what I overlooked... could I possible sneak in a way that avoids the battle altogether
I'm not gonna buy it if I can't solo it.
What if someone else can? and they put out a guide... or help you through it so next time you can? Or do you have to be able to do everything first time -- and damn it to hell if you fail!
I get it. There's challenging and fun, and there's hard as hell and un-fun. If this doesn't strike the balance, and it really does cause you stress and you feel alienated -- PTS feedback is all I can suggest.Edited by mairwen85 on January 22, 2019 3:45PM1 -
Alinhbo_Tyaka✭✭✭✭✭
✭KhajiitFelix wrote: »All the dungeons out now are easy enough. It's all about learning and understanding mechanics.
For vet DLC dungeons I have simple requirements:
Discord required.
CP500+
Proper build/gear, 25-30k DPS
I've ran them all, no issues the most important thing is having people communicate and actually listen.
Not everyone wants to talk with strangers.
I get that, but I don't trust random people to actually know mechanics and listen. It's much easier to get them to comprehend when you're telling it in their ear vs having to trust they read chat.
talking usually refers to both voice AND text chat. some people sometimes would just rather play on their own.
Sure, and that's why you run into so many issues on vet DLC dungeons. I on the other hand have not.
actualy, i run into issues PUGGING them on NORMAL. WHILE communicating. text is still communication.
every single person who goes "this dungeons are easy" is either playing with a premade group where the know exactly how well their mates are performing WHILE excluding people who are in their view underperforming (which is like... majority of ESO population) and/or are such high performers that they can quite literally compensate for under performing group members.
the rest of us make do with whoever we get, and/or people we like to play with, but that are NOT god's gift to gaming. and herein lays a problem. even on normal DLC dungeons are very VERY unforgiving to such people. forger vet for a moment. NORMAL.
so fine. half the DLC's are useless to us despite a fair chunk of us paying for acess to them via ps plus - so that's half the updates that we don't get to do much with, unless we get lucky and/or have someone take pity on us. but now. NOW they are actualy part of the overreaching story art.
please. for the love of god. STOP with "git gud" just.. stop. its not happening. for a moment instead... just try. just a little bit, TRY to maybe see it from a perspective of someone who is NOT you and doesn't play like you do.
and btw, when I say people who would rather not talk to others, I mean.. they would rather NOT GROUP WITH OTHERS AT ALL.
not everyone likes to play in a group.
P.S. btw... consider for a moment. just for a moment, that its NOT the lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k.
It is lack of research that keeps people from pulling 20k. I can pull 15k on a PvP toon in PvE content and that's not even with proper gear. Research means knowing your rotation, build and gear. Thus lack of rotation = bad dps.
sigh. I mean I'm not surprised that you are not getting it, but.. you are not getting it. knowing rotation =/= being able to execute it. especially in ESO that doesn't have tab targeting, has this mess of a system called LA weaving/animation canceling in addition to bar swapping. oh and latency. latency messes you up in this game in a way that it doesn't in other mmos...
I just... there is this russian saying that roughly translates as "someone with full belly will never understand someone who is starving" I feel like it applies here.
and you know the irony here, is for all this "you have to be social, its an MMO" admonitions from all these people, you all are also perfectly ok with kicking people out of groups if they don;'t perform to your specifications, forgetting that those people are PEOPLE, they are someone's friends, they are probably people in this thread and others like it. they could be (and often are) perfectly nice people that just happen not to be god's gift to gaming. off with their heads! /slam the kick button
I do get it, you don't. I was new, and I'm a way better player than I was back then. If you get kicked then accept it. I'm not about to be punished and have to sit through a miserable dungeon because you can't better yourself. Nope.
No you don't, "git gud" is a relative term with many variables. You can be the best player in the world and after a certain point your skills degrade as you age. I can pretty much hold my own in normal dungeons but as a senior citizen, never thought I'd hear myself saying that, I will never have the eye sight and reflexes that I did when I was in my teens or twenties. This is why I don't run veteran dungeons. The most recent DLC dungeons are pushing the edge of my and I'm sure others abilities. It isn't just age you also have younger folks with these same problems, slower internet connections, lack of time to really develop skills, etc. If ZOS continues this trend it means this year's story will be out of reach of many of the players.
This brings up a couple of problems for ZOS. Part of the reason I subscribe to ESO+ is access to the DLC's. Even though I have access to all of the content if I am not able to play it then I see no reason to continue my subscription. Yes I would lose the crafting bag but I'm sitting on so many materials I could go for many months and not exhaust what I have saved. I'm sure I'm not the only player that would consider this. The other is if I can't complete content that is part of the story why would I want to upgrade to Elswyr? Like the DLC's it doesn't make sense to spend money only to be able to complete part of the chapter.
The only real resolution IMO is to ensure the normal group dungeons are at a skill level that a large majority of the player base can complete it. My feeling is a skill level requirement somewhere between FG1 and the recent DLC dungeons would meet this need. For some it would be a cakewalk and others hard but should be able to be completed by all without placing an onerous load on any individual player in the group.
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mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »The only real resolution IMO is to ensure the normal group dungeons are at a skill level that a large majority of the player base can complete it. My feeling is a skill level requirement somewhere between FG1 and the recent DLC dungeons would meet this need. For some it would be a cakewalk and others hard but should be able to be completed by all without placing an onerous load on any individual player in the group.
OK. So what do you do about it? You have identified what you believe is an issue; you have a suggestion for improvement; you believe it is something only ZoS can fix (that you have no control over) -- what to do with it? Continue this circular discussion, or take action?Edited by mairwen85 on January 22, 2019 3:59PM0 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭@mairwen85
I'm guessing it is one of those root/stuns that pick a person and it is unavoidable but is easily broken by a second person. Kind of like that one dungeon where you get staked to the ground.
Edit: as far as sneaking goes, you have to beat this first boss to unlock the door to the next area.Edited by Casdha on January 22, 2019 4:04PMProud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%0 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »
The only real resolution IMO is to ensure the normal group dungeons are at a skill level that a large majority of the player base can complete it. My feeling is a skill level requirement somewhere between FG1 and the recent DLC dungeons would meet this need. For some it would be a cakewalk and others hard but should be able to be completed by all without placing an onerous load on any individual player in the group.
They are. With a group of 4 people and perhaps a few wipes while learning mechanics if nobody in the group knows them, but I've only ever had one PUG fall apart when I got into Scalecaller for the first time and nobody in the group knew what was going on and they disbanded at the first boss after a couple of wipes.
I've run it several times since, and it's a pretty fun dungeon and not DPS intensive if you follow the mechanics.The Moot Councillor2 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@mairwen85
I'm guessing it is one of those roots that pick a person and it is unavoidable but is easily broken by a second person.
would finding a 2nd person be so bad? Maybe someone like-minded who doesn't want to run full group but equally would like to experience the story? 0 -
Alinhbo_Tyaka✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't get why are so many (not everyone, but many) opposing people in this thread acts like someone who in reality simply wants to experience the story their way, in piece, or with their friends-casuals (which is group, no matter how bad is this group) and therefore asks ZOS not to tangle them in the content they don't enjoy (not can't do, everything is possible with a lot of time invested, but NOT ENJOY) made this thread to steal or devalue the other, high-end player's achievements? Why are you insists on that when no one is targeting vet, hm, your skins and personalities? We're asking for normal mode to be NORMAL. Not a training field for vets, but normal dungeon with toned down mechanics like it was before in same DLC dungeons. Just not like the last bunch that scared the shite out of us.
You're good at this game, gratz. Does this gives you a card blanche to be mean to others, who ended up in situation when they are forced to do what they've never done before? No.
You're good at playing and you enjoy challenge, we get it. But some of us enjoy story and it's now locked behind the content not so many of us enjoy just because ZOS need to sell their dungeons. We have every right to be upset and angry.
And they say that this community is amazing. Right. Amazingly trained to find a person to mock for whatever reason.
You see the same responses on any of MMO boards. Generally these same players are complaining that they can never find enough people to join progression oriented groups in harder content. They seem to see easier content as taking away potential recruits that will come pouring in if only they were forced to "Git Gud". They don't realize that it is really a small portion of the player base that cares about progressing through the higher level content. Most just want a sandbox to play in the way they want to. It isn't that much different that the PvE/PvP split. A large portion of each group wants nothing to do with the other play style and nothing you do will change that. I see nothing wrong with the game trying to accommodate all of the player types if it doesn't impact one group over another (the usual case). Sadly not everyone feels the same way.2 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭@mairwen85
I'm guessing it is one of those roots that pick a person and it is unavoidable but is easily broken by a second person. would finding a 2nd person be so bad? Maybe someone like-minded who doesn't want to run full group but equally would like to experience the story?
Not for me, and I have a good guild to help out with that. In my case being able to do these dungeons is a side benefit of ESO+ (when it is active). I have purchased all of the story DLCs with crowns anyways, to have when my sub is not up, and I've also purchased the chapters (up till now) however, I have not and will not purchase the Dungeon DLCs if I can not play them solo.
My personal experience aside, I still understand why folks want a "Story Mode" or at the very least that "Normal" be normal.Edited by Casdha on January 22, 2019 4:13PMProud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%1 -
Alinhbo_Tyaka✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »The only real resolution IMO is to ensure the normal group dungeons are at a skill level that a large majority of the player base can complete it. My feeling is a skill level requirement somewhere between FG1 and the recent DLC dungeons would meet this need. For some it would be a cakewalk and others hard but should be able to be completed by all without placing an onerous load on any individual player in the group.
OK. So what do you do about it? You have identified what you believe is an issue; you have a suggestion for improvement; you believe it is something only ZoS can fix (that you have no control over) -- what to do with it? Continue this circular discussion, or take action?
How hard a dungeon is, is up to ZOS to fix. This thread is about as yet unreleased content so it is well within ZOS ability to take it and the numerous arguments into account. As to content's complexity there is no action I can take other than I outlined in regards to upgrading to the new chapter and continuing my ESO+ sub. I will take action those if ZOS decides to continue the trend of making each DLC's dungeons harder and they are to the point I could no longer complete the content.
As for myself I rarely quit a group and try to complete the dungeons regardless of the number of wipes or deaths. In fact about the only time I guarantee I will quit is if there is a fake tank and the vote kick is rejected. I don't consider it onerous to have to carry a heavier load than the other players in the group and manage a way through to the end. Although based on what I read in the forum my feelings about dungeon running seems to be an exception.1 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Casdha we're caught in an almost fallacious dilemma then.
On one hand players: I can't do this in a group.
On the other, ZoS: we designed it for groups.
Community: you should be able to do it in a group.
Then we have players: I could do it in a group, but I don't want to. I want to do it solo, but it's too hard.Edited by mairwen85 on January 22, 2019 4:37PM2 -
adriant1978✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In case anyone missed it, here is ZOS explanation/justification for the dungeons/story thing:The story is connected to the Season of the Dragon in that, assisting Tharayya in getting both halves of the Wrathstone tablet in Frostvault and Depths of Malatar provides context for how Abnur Tharn has them in the prologue quest. If you do not do the Dungeons, that's fine, some other adventurers helped him... but if you did, its an awesome pay off to see your hard work in the Dungeons with your friends be rewarded with a cool story element, don't you think? It's not something that has happened before and we are excited to finally bring this experience to players who enjoy our group content.4 -
Urvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vet DLC dungeons are a part of end game content, which is designed around competent players that understand the game. There is no point in adding brain dead level dungeons that anyone could complete by light attack spamming. Where is the challenge and progression in that? If you can’t do hard content, get better at the game.2 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭adriant1978 wrote: »In case anyone missed it, here is ZOS explanation/justification for the dungeons/story thing:The story is connected to the Season of the Dragon in that, assisting Tharayya in getting both halves of the Wrathstone tablet in Frostvault and Depths of Malatar provides context for how Abnur Tharn has them in the prologue quest. If you do not do the Dungeons, that's fine, some other adventurers helped him... but if you did, its an awesome pay off to see your hard work in the Dungeons with your friends be rewarded with a cool story element, don't you think? It's not something that has happened before and we are excited to finally bring this experience to players who enjoy our group content.
I didn't miss it, it was a direct comment to what I posted there. I figured folks who wanted to know where this was attempted was following that thread out of curiosity.Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%0 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Casdha we're caught in an almost fallacious dilemma then.
On one hand players: I can't do this in a group.
On the other, ZoS: we designed it for groups.
Community: you should be able to do it in a group.
Then we have players: I could do it in a group, but I don't want to. I want to do it solo, but it's too hard.
Rest of the community: If you want me to pay for it, I shouldn't have to (in a group).Edited by Casdha on January 22, 2019 4:52PMProud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%2