Twohothardware wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »I don’t understand this change, it seems to be 100% pvp orientated.
Why take away the stealth bonus they had?
This change just seems clumsy. Like they felt that they HAD to make a change rather that there NEEDED to be a change.
Because it served absolutely no purpose on the soon to be 5 out of 6 classes in the game for the overwhelming majority of players. And the loss is 3 METERS. If it's that important to have an extra 3 meters stealth radius in order to be able for stealing to function in the game they can easily add that to the Legerdemain skill line so that all Races can do it instead of only Wood Elf and Khajiit.
Really? They are taking away stealth from the other classes? So only nightblades can stealth now? That’s pretty major. I play 3 different classes as bosmer, and losing the ability to stealth on my warden and dragon knight would be huge. Can you give me a link that shows that they intend to remove stealth from those classes?
They're not removing stealth from any class or race, they're removing the 3 meter bonus to stealth from Wood Elf and replacing it with passives that benefit the race more on all classes.
Twohothardware wrote: »I don’t understand this change, it seems to be 100% pvp orientated.
Why take away the stealth bonus they had?
This change just seems clumsy. Like they felt that they HAD to make a change rather that there NEEDED to be a change.
Because it served absolutely no purpose on the soon to be 5 out of 6 classes in the game for the overwhelming majority of players. And the loss is 3 METERS. If it's that important to have an extra 3 meters stealth radius in order to be able for stealing to function in the game they can easily add that to the Legerdemain skill line so that all Races can do it instead of only Wood Elf and Khajiit.
Don’t quibble over the 3 meters. Pay attention to the completely useless passive of stealth detection. Stealth DETECTION.
Where do you use this in PvE? Where in pve did you detect stealthed enemies? NO WHERE. It even says in the notes they wrote themselves that enemies in Tamriel don’t go around sneaking.
Maybe ONE of the levels on ONE of the new dungeons in Elsweyr will require stealth detection, and that’s a big maybe.
Twohothardware wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »I don’t understand this change, it seems to be 100% pvp orientated.
Why take away the stealth bonus they had?
This change just seems clumsy. Like they felt that they HAD to make a change rather that there NEEDED to be a change.
Because it served absolutely no purpose on the soon to be 5 out of 6 classes in the game for the overwhelming majority of players. And the loss is 3 METERS. If it's that important to have an extra 3 meters stealth radius in order to be able for stealing to function in the game they can easily add that to the Legerdemain skill line so that all Races can do it instead of only Wood Elf and Khajiit.
Don’t quibble over the 3 meters. Pay attention to the completely useless passive of stealth detection. Stealth DETECTION.
Where do you use this in PvE? Where in pve did you detect stealthed enemies? NO WHERE. It even says in the notes they wrote themselves that enemies in Tamriel don’t go around sneaking.
Maybe ONE of the levels on ONE of the new dungeons in Elsweyr will require stealth detection, and that’s a big maybe.
Wood Elf now has the same max Stamina as Imperial and Redguard and effectively higher Stam Recovery for a PvE build. You also get a 20% increase to movement speed after roll dodging, combine that with Major Expedition from a Bow and that's 50% speed buff.
Those three things are worth more than a 3 meter bonus to Stealth which they may end up adding to another passive skill line like Legerdemain.
Twohothardware wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »I don’t understand this change, it seems to be 100% pvp orientated.
Why take away the stealth bonus they had?
This change just seems clumsy. Like they felt that they HAD to make a change rather that there NEEDED to be a change.
Because it served absolutely no purpose on the soon to be 5 out of 6 classes in the game for the overwhelming majority of players. And the loss is 3 METERS. If it's that important to have an extra 3 meters stealth radius in order to be able for stealing to function in the game they can easily add that to the Legerdemain skill line so that all Races can do it instead of only Wood Elf and Khajiit.
Don’t quibble over the 3 meters. Pay attention to the completely useless passive of stealth detection. Stealth DETECTION.
Where do you use this in PvE? Where in pve did you detect stealthed enemies? NO WHERE. It even says in the notes they wrote themselves that enemies in Tamriel don’t go around sneaking.
Maybe ONE of the levels on ONE of the new dungeons in Elsweyr will require stealth detection, and that’s a big maybe.
Wood Elf now has the same max Stamina as Imperial and Redguard and effectively higher Stam Recovery for a PvE build. You also get a 20% increase to movement speed after roll dodging for 3 seconds, combine that with Major Expedition from a Bow and that's StamSorc movement speed.
Those three things are worth more than a 3 meter bonus to Stealth which they may end up adding to another passive skill line like Legerdemain.
Temeraire507 wrote: »Are we beginning to cry before this even hits PTS? I believe the changes to be very good. Yes the detection passive is useless, but the anti detection passive was also useless 95% of the time for PvP and 99% in PvE (Sets for sneaking almost made it pointless) or even more often.
Temeraire507 wrote: »Are we beginning to cry before this even hits PTS? I believe the changes to be very good. Yes the detection passive is useless, but the anti detection passive was also useless 95% of the time for PvP and 99% in PvE (Sets for sneaking almost made it pointless) or even more often.
There are MANY quests that require the player to sneak through a restricted area. The sneak bonus is useful there. Not every person is going out and getting a special armor set for those quests. Not everyone runs around with the latest meta builds.
Temeraire507 wrote: »Temeraire507 wrote: »Are we beginning to cry before this even hits PTS? I believe the changes to be very good. Yes the detection passive is useless, but the anti detection passive was also useless 95% of the time for PvP and 99% in PvE (Sets for sneaking almost made it pointless) or even more often.
There are MANY quests that require the player to sneak through a restricted area. The sneak bonus is useful there. Not every person is going out and getting a special armor set for those quests. Not everyone runs around with the latest meta builds.
I don't like to follow metas as well. But getting 3 pieces of night terror and 5 of night mothers embrace in any trait or quality should take you maybe 3k gold if not less or a few quests in the areas they drop in. I played 100% in about the half of the old areas, a lot in the rest and all DLC's and the chapters as well. I did only feel sneaking to be useful if I wanted to play Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and a few quests in the chapters without getting a bounty that is very cheap, goes away while the guards don't catch me and can be reduced with the consumables the Thieves Guild throws at me to fill my inventory. In all quests except some dailies you can just sprint through all of the area and you're fine. And if generic_NPC_XY decides to attack you just throw them into the dirt in a few seconds.
Actually I found strong sneaking to be way more useful to farm certain items (e.g. motifs) or money or to skip adds in open dungeons on a very low char, than in quests.
Still, as I intended to say above, I love the sneaky playstyle. I often play sneaky just to play sneaky when going into the fight and killing everything (killing everything normal, of course I used the Blade of woe a lot) is way faster and way more effective. But it is just not worth all this trouble that is made around this passive imho
Temeraire507 wrote: »Temeraire507 wrote: »Are we beginning to cry before this even hits PTS? I believe the changes to be very good. Yes the detection passive is useless, but the anti detection passive was also useless 95% of the time for PvP and 99% in PvE (Sets for sneaking almost made it pointless) or even more often.
There are MANY quests that require the player to sneak through a restricted area. The sneak bonus is useful there. Not every person is going out and getting a special armor set for those quests. Not everyone runs around with the latest meta builds.
I don't like to follow metas as well. But getting 3 pieces of night terror and 5 of night mothers embrace in any trait or quality should take you maybe 3k gold if not less or a few quests in the areas they drop in. I played 100% in about the half of the old areas, a lot in the rest and all DLC's and the chapters as well. I did only feel sneaking to be useful if I wanted to play Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and a few quests in the chapters without getting a bounty that is very cheap, goes away while the guards don't catch me and can be reduced with the consumables the Thieves Guild throws at me to fill my inventory. In all quests except some dailies you can just sprint through all of the area and you're fine. And if generic_NPC_XY decides to attack you just throw them into the dirt in a few seconds.
Actually I found strong sneaking to be way more useful to farm certain items (e.g. motifs) or money or to skip adds in open dungeons on a very low char, than in quests.
Still, as I intended to say above, I love the sneaky playstyle. I often play sneaky just to play sneaky when going into the fight and killing everything (killing everything normal, of course I used the Blade of woe a lot) is way faster and way more effective. But it is just not worth all this trouble that is made around this passive imho
I still don't see the need to remove it though. They are buffing the stealth Kahjit passive so it's not like they are AGAINST a stealth passive. So why remove it for Bosmer? Just let Bosmer keep the Stealth buff, there is zero need to remove it. None.
Why is having two races that are good at stealth bad? There are multiple races that are good at spell casting, multiple races that are good at tanking. It just does not make sense.
Temeraire507 wrote: »Temeraire507 wrote: »Temeraire507 wrote: »Are we beginning to cry before this even hits PTS? I believe the changes to be very good. Yes the detection passive is useless, but the anti detection passive was also useless 95% of the time for PvP and 99% in PvE (Sets for sneaking almost made it pointless) or even more often.
There are MANY quests that require the player to sneak through a restricted area. The sneak bonus is useful there. Not every person is going out and getting a special armor set for those quests. Not everyone runs around with the latest meta builds.
I don't like to follow metas as well. But getting 3 pieces of night terror and 5 of night mothers embrace in any trait or quality should take you maybe 3k gold if not less or a few quests in the areas they drop in. I played 100% in about the half of the old areas, a lot in the rest and all DLC's and the chapters as well. I did only feel sneaking to be useful if I wanted to play Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and a few quests in the chapters without getting a bounty that is very cheap, goes away while the guards don't catch me and can be reduced with the consumables the Thieves Guild throws at me to fill my inventory. In all quests except some dailies you can just sprint through all of the area and you're fine. And if generic_NPC_XY decides to attack you just throw them into the dirt in a few seconds.
Actually I found strong sneaking to be way more useful to farm certain items (e.g. motifs) or money or to skip adds in open dungeons on a very low char, than in quests.
Still, as I intended to say above, I love the sneaky playstyle. I often play sneaky just to play sneaky when going into the fight and killing everything (killing everything normal, of course I used the Blade of woe a lot) is way faster and way more effective. But it is just not worth all this trouble that is made around this passive imho
I still don't see the need to remove it though. They are buffing the stealth Kahjit passive so it's not like they are AGAINST a stealth passive. So why remove it for Bosmer? Just let Bosmer keep the Stealth buff, there is zero need to remove it. None.
Why is having two races that are good at stealth bad? There are multiple races that are good at spell casting, multiple races that are good at tanking. It just does not make sense.
I can agree on the part that removing the stealth passive is not necessary and that it is not bad to have multiple races with stealth bonus. I also don't think this would hurt the game, however if we can get something else that is useful more often than stealth and not too strong in comparison with the other races (like the suggestions for more damage, cost reduction on bow, or even better sustain you can find in other threads. Currently the races seem to be well balanced and any of these would mess that balance up) I would prefer it over stealth.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Temeraire507 wrote: »Temeraire507 wrote: »Temeraire507 wrote: »Are we beginning to cry before this even hits PTS? I believe the changes to be very good. Yes the detection passive is useless, but the anti detection passive was also useless 95% of the time for PvP and 99% in PvE (Sets for sneaking almost made it pointless) or even more often.
There are MANY quests that require the player to sneak through a restricted area. The sneak bonus is useful there. Not every person is going out and getting a special armor set for those quests. Not everyone runs around with the latest meta builds.
I don't like to follow metas as well. But getting 3 pieces of night terror and 5 of night mothers embrace in any trait or quality should take you maybe 3k gold if not less or a few quests in the areas they drop in. I played 100% in about the half of the old areas, a lot in the rest and all DLC's and the chapters as well. I did only feel sneaking to be useful if I wanted to play Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and a few quests in the chapters without getting a bounty that is very cheap, goes away while the guards don't catch me and can be reduced with the consumables the Thieves Guild throws at me to fill my inventory. In all quests except some dailies you can just sprint through all of the area and you're fine. And if generic_NPC_XY decides to attack you just throw them into the dirt in a few seconds.
Actually I found strong sneaking to be way more useful to farm certain items (e.g. motifs) or money or to skip adds in open dungeons on a very low char, than in quests.
Still, as I intended to say above, I love the sneaky playstyle. I often play sneaky just to play sneaky when going into the fight and killing everything (killing everything normal, of course I used the Blade of woe a lot) is way faster and way more effective. But it is just not worth all this trouble that is made around this passive imho
I still don't see the need to remove it though. They are buffing the stealth Kahjit passive so it's not like they are AGAINST a stealth passive. So why remove it for Bosmer? Just let Bosmer keep the Stealth buff, there is zero need to remove it. None.
Why is having two races that are good at stealth bad? There are multiple races that are good at spell casting, multiple races that are good at tanking. It just does not make sense.
I can agree on the part that removing the stealth passive is not necessary and that it is not bad to have multiple races with stealth bonus. I also don't think this would hurt the game, however if we can get something else that is useful more often than stealth and not too strong in comparison with the other races (like the suggestions for more damage, cost reduction on bow, or even better sustain you can find in other threads. Currently the races seem to be well balanced and any of these would mess that balance up) I would prefer it over stealth.
Khajiit get to keep and improve their stealth, and it is in a passive that also gives them something else that is useful across different playstyles. What people are saying, what I am saying, is either replace the useless 'detect hidden' part of the last passive with our original stealth bonus or add that bonus back in.
I don't understand why there are so many people who have fallen in love with and married and had tons of kids with this stupid detect hidden passive.
Lord_Dexter wrote: »
Lord_Dexter wrote: »
Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »
Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?
Not even the silliest part since gank builds are hardly affected, ganking would be done at range to get the long shots bonus, and out of cloak to get the cloak bonus. Hiding at range isn't affected, just hiding within 4m. The only effect to ganking is the loss of the 10% damage bonus that I haven't heard anyone really complain about.
I think I also missed the part where I could gank any player in PVE.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »
Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?
Not even the silliest part since gank builds are hardly affected, ganking would be done at range to get the long shots bonus, and out of cloak to get the cloak bonus. Hiding at range isn't affected, just hiding within 4m. The only effect to ganking is the loss of the 10% damage bonus that I haven't heard anyone really complain about.
I think I also missed the part where I could gank any player in PVE.
I think you also missed the part where Bosmer players just want their stealth back.
Stealth detection is pointless in PvE (so it’s not better for PvE) and this does not appear to be a post complaining about losing the ability to “gank” other players.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »
Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?
Not even the silliest part since gank builds are hardly affected, ganking would be done at range to get the long shots bonus, and out of cloak to get the cloak bonus. Hiding at range isn't affected, just hiding within 4m. The only effect to ganking is the loss of the 10% damage bonus that I haven't heard anyone really complain about.
I think I also missed the part where I could gank any player in PVE.
I think you also missed the part where Bosmer players just want their stealth back.
Stealth detection is pointless in PvE (so it’s not better for PvE) and this does not appear to be a post complaining about losing the ability to “gank” other players.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »
Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?
Not even the silliest part since gank builds are hardly affected, ganking would be done at range to get the long shots bonus, and out of cloak to get the cloak bonus. Hiding at range isn't affected, just hiding within 4m. The only effect to ganking is the loss of the 10% damage bonus that I haven't heard anyone really complain about.
I think I also missed the part where I could gank any player in PVE.
I think you also missed the part where Bosmer players just want their stealth back.
Stealth detection is pointless in PvE (so it’s not better for PvE) and this does not appear to be a post complaining about losing the ability to “gank” other players.
No, the post I replied to wasn't but the post THAT was replying to was a gloat that 'no ganking' type post.
Also, I'm on your side here. I just want stealth the way it should be, not with the useless detect thing.
So, no. Didn't miss that at all.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »
Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?
Not even the silliest part since gank builds are hardly affected, ganking would be done at range to get the long shots bonus, and out of cloak to get the cloak bonus. Hiding at range isn't affected, just hiding within 4m. The only effect to ganking is the loss of the 10% damage bonus that I haven't heard anyone really complain about.
I think I also missed the part where I could gank any player in PVE.
I think you also missed the part where Bosmer players just want their stealth back.
Stealth detection is pointless in PvE (so it’s not better for PvE) and this does not appear to be a post complaining about losing the ability to “gank” other players.
No, the post I replied to wasn't but the post THAT was replying to was a gloat that 'no ganking' type post.
Also, I'm on your side here. I just want stealth the way it should be, not with the useless detect thing.
So, no. Didn't miss that at all.
My apologies!!!!
Wittychick42 wrote: »Hate it, hate it, hate it. I don’t PvP on my Bosmer. I made what I made specifically for the reduced stealth radius detection for all the sneaky things I do on PvE side. I maxed Legerdemain, Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood to create my perfect former Spinner torn from her world by affliction vampire assassin. It took a long time. I don’t want a khajiit, never did, and a token to change my Bosmer into a Khajiit for free means nothing when her name is still so completely Bosmer I have to buy an expensive token to make her name match the new race you are forcing me to change her to when I don’t want to. I always give you guys room to fiddle with things hoping for the best. I never publicly complain about nerfs, even though I’ve played this game since beta and have had pleanty to criticize over the years. But I’m finally pissed off. I will never get any benefit from this change. Sometimes people enjoy other things besides PvP. Please for once consider that. Please, please rethink this idea!
...
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.
A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.
Developer Comment:
The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.
Look at your logic that I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.
Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m
So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.
No, they do not. The Khajiit increase their ability to go into and remain in stealth. The Bosmer completely lose any and all bonus to this. Instead, the Bosmer get an improvement to their ability to see through stealth, which is completely different and not stealth at all by any definition, and which did not belong in any way to the previous iteration of the passive which was shared by the two races. Let's review the old passive: Bosmer and Khajiit both had a 3m reduction to the distance at which they would be detected in hiding, and both had a 10% bonus to damage done from stealth. The Khajiit keep part of that previous passive (and even improve with regard to that part) in that their new reduction is 5m instead of 3m but they lose the additional damage; the Bosmer keep exactly NONE of it, losing both the bonus to damage and in being able to hide. Note: detecting hidden things was not any part of the previous, shared passive.ProbablePaul wrote: »......
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.
A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.
Developer Comment:
The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.
Look at your logic that I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.
Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m
So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.
Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive.
You're missing the point. The devs explicitly acknowledge that being able to see hidden things is completely unimportant in PVE, and then go right on ahead and give Bosmer this useless ability.ProbablePaul wrote: »Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one.
LukosCreyden wrote: »It seems that the only outlier here is the stealth detection. It is essentially, useless. Change that to what it used to be, or even better, something new and useful and we'll be golden.
LukosCreyden wrote: »It seems that the only outlier here is the stealth detection. It is essentially, useless. Change that to what it used to be, or even better, something new and useful and we'll be golden.