What is P2W (pay to win)

Gelmir · January 2019

ATomiX96 wrote: »

can people please stop reviving dead threads from august 2018, necromancy isnt in the game yet.

In an age of Search Engines, that's an unrealistic wish.

Kuramas9tails · January 2019

ATomiX96 wrote: »

can people please stop reviving dead threads from august 2018, necromancy isnt in the game yet.

But when someone makes a new post about it, people tell them they are beating a dead horse and to search up previous treads.

The forum is never happy.

Xogath · January 2019

P2W has a couple major forms, I'll elaborate:

1. High-end, but accessible, content locked behind a blatant paywall. Meaning, if you don't access this zone.. you can't get your high level gear, or high level crafting materials.
2. Store-purchased items, specifically cosmetic, that affect combat in any way, be it marginal amounts of stat points, passive abilities, etc.

Those are both seen mainly in Korean-based MMORPGs. Anyone remember "Rusty Hearts"? Pretty fun game, really.. but the cosmetic items from the store had random amounts of stats on them.. so if you wanted to be the absolute bestest, you pretty much had to have those costume items with the stats your character/build needed.

Glad there isn't any of that crap in ESO.

I do wish Crown Crates would go away, though.. ZOS would likely make more money from people who wanted to buy that shiny mount for as high as $50. I know I'd have payed that much for a Shadow Senche.

But anyway.

It would be like.. let's say mounts gave us stats, and the ones from the Crown Store had MUCH better stats, or gave us a passive effect that worked in combat, like an extra Monster Set or something.

THAT would be P2W. Nothing in the Crown Store right now is like that.

Merlin13KAGL · January 2019

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

can people please stop reviving dead threads from august 2018, necromancy isnt in the game yet.

But when someone makes a new post about it, people tell them they are beating a dead horse and to search up previous treads.

The forum is never happy.

People don't make just one new thread...ever.
Threads can be revived or remade if the topic has been unanswered, changed, adds something, or is somehow relevant. I see none of those here.

Kuramas9tails · January 2019

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

can people please stop reviving dead threads from august 2018, necromancy isnt in the game yet.

But when someone makes a new post about it, people tell them they are beating a dead horse and to search up previous treads.

The forum is never happy.

People don't make just one new thread...ever.

Threads can be revived or remade if the topic has been unanswered, changed, adds something, or is somehow relevant. I see none of those here.

Then move on and don't comment.

Easy.

MJallday · January 2019

When someone explains how you can win ESO then I’ll listen

If anything eso is P2AQ ((Pay to advance quickly ) as content and items are hidden behind payed for dlc - eg siroria

Merlin13KAGL · January 2019

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

can people please stop reviving dead threads from august 2018, necromancy isnt in the game yet.

But when someone makes a new post about it, people tell them they are beating a dead horse and to search up previous treads.

The forum is never happy.

People don't make just one new thread...ever.

Threads can be revived or remade if the topic has been unanswered, changed, adds something, or is somehow relevant. I see none of those here.

Then move on and don't comment.

Easy.

Take your own advice.

Sparr0w · January 2019

ATomiX96 wrote: »

can people please stop reviving dead threads from august 2018, necromancy isnt in the game yet.

How many threads from Aug 2018 have been necro'd? ITS A CONSPIRACY

jircris11 · January 2019

Gnozo wrote: »

For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w

For me, eso is heavily p2w.

Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.

By your logic ANY mmo is p2w

MEBengalsFan2001 · January 2019

Most MMOs that have a model where a player can pay to improve their character typically sees more players using the improvement in PVE aspect of the game and PVE is group content therefore the paying player never wins anything. The model is actually pay to advance and that model for PVE hurts no one and the players that don't buy into this concept and the company both benefits from the paying player. The non-paying player and the company benefits as the paying player is supporting the game and making sure that it has a longer shelf life.

The only time a player is paying to win is if the player is focused on PVP and what they win is the ability to be slightly better than their competitor but paying does not equal winning; winning in PVP not only requires decent gear but also skill as you are going against another player.

I am one that supports games and will pay to advance my character if it makes sense; in ESO I don't see the value of paying anything more than for ESO+ and buying the chapters. Outside of those two purchases I don't have a desire to spend money in ESO; and what I do want from the crown store I will buy with the crowns I get from ESO+.

ESO is not another MMO where you are able to buy your character at end game and have nearly everything completed with almost best in slot items without much effort. ESO from my experience, you have to at least play one character up to max CP maybe from there you can use crowns to buy gear, etc.. but simply being 810 with best gear does not mean you will be good in the game or good in PVP. Again, that still requires a bit of skill to master and be decent with a character and paying to get stuff does not mean you won anything at all and in PVE, like I already stated, you never win you simply advance your character.

notimetocare · January 2019

No option is sufficiently detailed. P2W is direct, immediate power that cannot be obtained by playing.

There are a few close ones, research and xp boosts. But in ESOs case,, both are available and neither are direct power boosts.

XP boost is available in game and crafting research is irrelevant at this point. So many people are maxed and craft for others super cheap.

Salvas_Aren · January 2019

You pay - Zeni wins.

Maura_Neysa · January 2019

P2W is when the Most Effective Tactic Available is only available to those that pay for it.
aka
- If Crown Store Pots were better than in-game crafted pots
- Similar to the way Summerset Trial sets are BiS PvE sets.

If Winning was Fashion, than ESO would be so guilty of P2W, but since it isn't, ESO is actually pretty good, especially in comparison to other games like BDO

Faulgor · January 2019

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

P2W is when the Most Effective Tactic Available is only available to those that pay for it.
aka
- If Crown Store Pots were better than in-game crafted pots
- Similar to the way Summerset Trial sets are BiS PvE sets.

If Winning was Fashion, than ESO would be so guilty of P2W, but since it isn't, ESO is actually pretty good, especially in comparison to other games like BDO

Isn't it? What else is?
The only ultimate reason to do any so-called endgame content is for the titles, skins, costumes, etc. There is nothing else. Better gear is just a means to do the content that gets your fashion maxed out quicker and/or easier.
Even PvP has no higher benefit anymore, with campaign boosts in PvE zones gone for a while now.

I really struggle to think of anything else that could classify as "winning" in ESO ..

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · January 2019

generalmyrick wrote: »

What is P2W (pay to win)?

Answers quoted from local debate! @PrinceDamien and @DuskMarine

ESO is not Pay 2 Win. Full stop.

Maura_Neysa · January 2019

Faulgor wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

P2W is when the Most Effective Tactic Available is only available to those that pay for it.
aka
- If Crown Store Pots were better than in-game crafted pots
- Similar to the way Summerset Trial sets are BiS PvE sets.

If Winning was Fashion, than ESO would be so guilty of P2W, but since it isn't, ESO is actually pretty good, especially in comparison to other games like BDO

Isn't it? What else is?
The only ultimate reason to do any so-called endgame content is for the titles, skins, costumes, etc. There is nothing else. Better gear is just a means to do the content that gets your fashion maxed out quicker and/or easier.
Even PvP has no higher benefit anymore, with campaign boosts in PvE zones gone for a while now.

I really struggle to think of anything else that could classify as "winning" in ESO ..

@Faulgor Seems to me that, Leader Boards (PvE) and Reputation (PvP) is Winning. I agree PvP has less of a goal besides fashion. ZoS needs to actually enable tournaments, with public leader boards
However with fashion, everyone can win. So I don't think fashion can count as winning. Unless they also implement a Fashion tournaments, with public leader boards :shrug:

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2019

A lot depends on "where" you draw the line. Common sense can help but it is all subjective - one person will say "A" and the other will say "B".

In general P2W is basically ANYTHING that you buy for real money that gives you advantage in ANY aspect of the game & gameplay over some one who would not buy it. That is what people often ignore as they think of "win" in Player vs Player scenario only - because it mostly noticeable form of P2W.

But there are other aspects of the game that do not involve PvP - and sure certain "P2W" always exists in some form. Arguably even benefits that ESO+ gives may be consider "P2W". In a scenario when for example we have 2 equally skilled players and they both start the game at the same time (but one is using ESO+) obviously the one using ESO+ will be able to level up character faster,
not to mention having access to faster mount training, tri-potion etc.
The same goes for Craft Bag as it basically makes your inventory management significantly easier vs some one who is not using Craft Bag - especially if you want to craft on multiple characters etc.

Even if something is not directly "P2W" - it is still a from of "P2W". For example - how would you call it if ZOS would start to sell achievements for crowns ? (obviously it will not happen but it "what if" question).

Since achievements themself are not a "Player vs Player" activity (no player would be harmed or defeated)
but well.. they just give points, skins, mementos etc (in general - mostly cosmetics) - the same stuff that you can buy in a crown store. Would that be P2W ? Of course it would be. Imagine "buying" Emperor! achievement...
The same goes for example for motives. By buying them for real money you save time. Someone who is not buying them has to "waist" some time to grind them.

In general there are many aspects of P2W but they all vary in scale. Most of them are simply unnoticeable - but still - they are there.

Faulgor · January 2019

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

P2W is when the Most Effective Tactic Available is only available to those that pay for it.
aka
- If Crown Store Pots were better than in-game crafted pots
- Similar to the way Summerset Trial sets are BiS PvE sets.

If Winning was Fashion, than ESO would be so guilty of P2W, but since it isn't, ESO is actually pretty good, especially in comparison to other games like BDO

Isn't it? What else is?
The only ultimate reason to do any so-called endgame content is for the titles, skins, costumes, etc. There is nothing else. Better gear is just a means to do the content that gets your fashion maxed out quicker and/or easier.
Even PvP has no higher benefit anymore, with campaign boosts in PvE zones gone for a while now.

I really struggle to think of anything else that could classify as "winning" in ESO ..

@Faulgor Seems to me that, Leader Boards (PvE) and Reputation (PvP) is Winning. I agree PvP has less of a goal besides fashion. ZoS needs to actually enable tournaments, with public leader boards
However with fashion, everyone can win. So I don't think fashion can count as winning. Unless they also implement a Fashion tournaments, with public leader boards :shrug:

Intuitively that makes sense to me, but prestige is tied so closely to fashion / title unlocks that they feel difficut to separate entirely. Of course, theoretically, everyone can have the Former Emperor title or trial skin, but there is still a unique accomplishment associated with it.

Regardless, as some guilds are selling score runs for gold, and there are similar arrangements to get people the Ruby Throne in Cyrodiil, couldn't you buy gold with money via crown exchgange and buy yourself a leader board position? Would that be P2W?

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · January 2019

Faulgor wrote: »

Regardless, as some guilds are selling score runs for gold, and there are similar arrangements to get people the Ruby Throne in Cyrodiil, couldn't you buy gold with money via crown exchgange and buy yourself a leader board position? Would that be P2W?

Thats something you do with the money. Nobody forces you to do so, neither anyone cares

Maura_Neysa · January 2019

Faulgor wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

P2W is when the Most Effective Tactic Available is only available to those that pay for it.
aka
- If Crown Store Pots were better than in-game crafted pots
- Similar to the way Summerset Trial sets are BiS PvE sets.

If Winning was Fashion, than ESO would be so guilty of P2W, but since it isn't, ESO is actually pretty good, especially in comparison to other games like BDO

Isn't it? What else is?
The only ultimate reason to do any so-called endgame content is for the titles, skins, costumes, etc. There is nothing else. Better gear is just a means to do the content that gets your fashion maxed out quicker and/or easier.
Even PvP has no higher benefit anymore, with campaign boosts in PvE zones gone for a while now.

I really struggle to think of anything else that could classify as "winning" in ESO ..

@Faulgor Seems to me that, Leader Boards (PvE) and Reputation (PvP) is Winning. I agree PvP has less of a goal besides fashion. ZoS needs to actually enable tournaments, with public leader boards
However with fashion, everyone can win. So I don't think fashion can count as winning. Unless they also implement a Fashion tournaments, with public leader boards :shrug:

Intuitively that makes sense to me, but prestige is tied so closely to fashion / title unlocks that they feel difficut to separate entirely. Of course, theoretically, everyone can have the Former Emperor title or trial skin, but there is still a unique accomplishment associated with it.

Regardless, as some guilds are selling score runs for gold, and there are similar arrangements to get people the Ruby Throne in Cyrodiil, couldn't you buy gold with money via crown exchgange and buy yourself a leader board position? Would that be P2W?

Literally other other games have Crown Potions and Crafted Potions/Poisons being reversed in strength. That is Pay 2 Win. Loser finding a way to buy what they don't have the skill for isn't.
ESO has many problems, P2W isn't one.

Mr_Walker · January 2019

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

can people please stop reviving dead threads from august 2018, necromancy isnt in the game yet.

But when someone makes a new post about it, people tell them they are beating a dead horse and to search up previous treads.

The forum is never happy.

Treads. TREADS!

So ANGRY right now. Raging. At. Forum. Typos.

Treads....

Valykc · January 2019

Ragebull wrote: »

Aren’t the 2 options the same thing?

My thoughts too, I had to read it multiple times but still came to this conclusion again and again

russelmmendoza · January 2019

P2w is something you buy that lets win you irregardless of anything in the game.

P2w is paying for something that lets you win on anything in the game.

P2w is paying then winning.

Gnozo · January 2019

For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).

And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.

Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.

An example i gave already 1000 times:

2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.

One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.

The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.

So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.

Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.

And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.

Linaleah · January 2019

Gnozo wrote: »

For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).

And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.

Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.

An example i gave already 1000 times:

2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.

One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.

The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.

So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.

Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.

And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.

by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.

heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.

by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now

Gnozo · January 2019

Linaleah wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

For me, personally, p2w is when you can get better stats by spending money (even if you have to do something after like farming etc.).

And for me, this is juwelry crafting locked behind a paywall.

Ofc you can get crafted juwelry from a Friend, guildstore or ask in zonechat for someone to craft it for you but you will never be able to transform dropped juwelry into better traits.

An example i gave already 1000 times:

2 stamdks running the same build:
Bloodspawn, Fury, 7th Legion.

One of the Meta setups for stamdk. 1 stamdk has spend money for Summerset and has acces to juwelry crafting do he transformed his healthy juwelry into robust to get more stamina, resulting in more sustain, damage and healing.

The other one is stuck with healthy juwelry.

So, with the same gear the stamdk who spend money for additional content not provided by vanilla game has higher tooltips on his damage and healing abilities.

Sure, this doesnt grant him a win in a duel over the other guy cause skill level is always different but he has an advantage over the other player stats wise that nobody can deny.

And this is kinda p2w or more like pay to get an advantage.

by that description every mmo that has paid expansions is pay to win.

heck, WoW is the biggest pay to win offender since you have all the new gear AND levels behind expansion paywall. you can't even run the same sets - optimized or otherwise.

by this definition, as mentioned above - eso plus is pay to win and we are just verging into ridiculous now

Actually i dont know anything about WoW cause i never played it or ever will.

Still my argument stays, in my example the stamdk with summerset has more damage and healing with the same sets like the non sommerset owner cause he can make his gear better by changing healthy trait to robust.

ruengdet2515 · January 2019

P2W is ... give me "One Hit Kill"

jainiadral · January 2019

After playing a real pay to win game on mobile (Royal Chaos-- good story for the K-drama addictive sorts with excellent voice acting, everything requires $$$), I have a really hard time seeing most Western MMOs as being anything close to the definition. I can detail all the payment options if you really want-- but you'd go blind from crossing your eyes.

O_LYKOS · January 2019

Both options sound the same to me.

Dreyfron · January 2019

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

This stupid P2W debate again... ESO is NOT P2W, just get over it.

I agree. this always makes me laugh. If you pay a subscription it is because the developers need to be paid. Nothing comes for free, not ever. So if paying for a subscription is pay to win, then so be it!!